What could Buick do

[buyacargetacheck]

What could Buick do to fill Pontiac's shoes? It's not even a legit question at this point. GM is staring down the bankruptcy barrel. As Chrysler is about to demonstrate this is a time to reset the company and do everything right as if you were starting a brand new company. Chevrolet handles what Pontiac did just fine. GM doesn't have unlimited resources for chasing down BMW and Mercedes with Cadillac. Select Cadillac vehicles (new SRX, Converj and maybe a less expensive GMT900 Escalade) should be moved over to Buick. Cadillac should be cancelled. It's either Cadillac or Buick, and I think Buick can pull off sharing parts and platforms with Chevy better than Cadillac. Plus, the automotive center of the universe is moving to China. Buick can build on that.

GMC. What do you think the future is for trucks in a more stringent CAFE world? Phase out GMC Chevy clones, move all medium-duty trucks to GMC and spin off the medium trucks to someone else. Retrench with Chevy Trucks to beat Ford, Dodge and Toyota.

Bottomline 2 channels: Chevy and Buick.

Edited May 1, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[Northstar]

I don't understand how it would be better to give Buick vehicles that fit in Pontiac's lineup instead of just keeping them as Pontiacs. Two narrowly focused brands will sell better and be more appealing than one more broadly focused brand.

[ocnblu]

Yet another harebrained scheme posted by buyacargetaclue.

[Camino LS6]

Yet another harebrained scheme posted by buyacargetaclue.

Agreed.

Pure lunacy.

[Intrepidation]

I find the Chrysler/Dodge/Buick meets the criteria of "bad outweighs the good and has for decades" far more than Pontiac has. But everyone has their rose colored glasses...

Depends on how you wanna look at it:

Chrysler: Yep, it is as diluted as Pontiac. It used to be able to go toe to toe with Cadillac (`57 era Imperials for instance). However those days have long gone and now most of what it has sold were the same things you could find at Dodge. However, like Buick it still resonates with people as more "premium" than the mainstream brand.

Dodge: Diluted? How so? It's a mainstream brand like Chevy. It does have a macho image (that it's been building up since the Ram and Viper, but throughout the lineup since the Charger)), but it has a design language to back it up, as well as high-performance vehicles (and has for years). Have there been flops? Sure, but same with Chevy.

Buick: Same with Chrysler...it's been diluted and also has the stogy old-fart image stuck to it, but it's still seen as being more premium than Chevy.

Of course it may not matter for Chrysler anyway, if the company doesn't survive bankruptcy.

[SAmadei]

Chrysler: Yep, it is as diluted as Pontiac. It used to be able to go toe to toe with Cadillac (`57 era Imperials for instance). However those days have long gone and now most of what it has sold were the same things you could find at Dodge. However, like Buick it still resonates with people as more "premium" than the mainstream brand.

Chrysler likes to think they go toe to toe with Cadillac, but they don't. They go toe to toe with Buick. '57 era Imperials were a separate brand, and a failure, otherwise they would still be here.

Dodge: Diluted? How so? It's a mainstream brand like Chevy. It does have a macho image (that it's been building up since the Ram and Viper, but throughout the lineup since the Charger)), but it has a design language to back it up, as well as high-performance vehicles (and has for years). Have there been flops? Sure, but same with Chevy.

Dodges from 1980-2005 were mostly laughable. Most of those years, they were virtually impossible to tell from the TRUE mainstream brand, Plymouth.

Where was the design language in the K-cars? How about the K-car based Daytona... yeah, that was real competitive with F-bodies and Mustangs.

With the exception of the Viper and the recent LX cars (which still have polarizing styling and questionable quality), what do we have? The Neon was a nice pocket rocket... but the few people I knew who had them had problems. The Stealth was just a Mitsu rebadge with awful styling. The Caliber is slower than the Neon it replaced and generally has don't nothing but piss off the SRT-4 faithful. I liked the Intrepid, but it certainly didn't set the world afire.

And design language? It's a cross-hair grill... stolen from the Ram trucks... because they are one of the only real bright spots for the '90s Dodge. But the cross-hair grill is just a tack-on... just like Pontiac's split grill.

And Dodge's cross-hair grill isn't even on the best car they have... the Challenger!

Buick: Same with Chrysler...it's been diluted and also has the stogy old-fart image stuck to it, but it's still seen as being more premium than Chevy.

Modern Buick people I talk to couldn't care less about their brand... they just got a deal.

[Intrepidation]

Chrysler likes to think they go toe to toe with Cadillac, but they don't. They go toe to toe with Buick. '57 era Imperials were a separate brand, and a failure, otherwise they would still be here.

You misunderstood what I said. Years ago Chryslers could be compared with Cadillac. However it hasn't been that way for decades. Although, the 300M was a better performance car than what Cadillac had to offer at the time.

Dodges from 1980-2005 were mostly laughable. Most of those years, they were virtually impossible to tell from the TRUE mainstream brand, Plymouth.

Where was the design language in the K-cars? How about the K-car based Daytona... yeah, that was real competitive with F-bodies and Mustangs.

With the exception of the Viper and the recent LX cars (which still have polarizing styling and questionable quality), what do we have? The Neon was a nice pocket rocket... but the few people I knew who had them had problems. The Stealth was just a Mitsu rebadge with awful styling. The Caliber is slower than the Neon it replaced and generally has don't nothing but piss off the SRT-4 faithful. I liked the Intrepid, but it certainly didn't set the world afire.

And design language? It's a cross-hair grill... stolen from the Ram trucks... because they are one of the only real bright spots for the '90s Dodge. But the cross-hair grill is just a tack-on... just like Pontiac's split grill.

And Dodge's cross-hair grill isn't even on the best car they have... the Challenger!

First, the crosshair grill has been around for decades. Before the Ram even existed.

Second, it's not stealing. Unless I guess Pontiac stole the split grill from one of it's models (or BMW? I can give misinformation too)

Next up. Dodge had several performance models with it's EEK cars like the Shadow CSX, Spirit R/T and such. The minivans changed the shape of the industry for people movers. The First gen Neons were touted as being worthy of competing with the Civics and such (before later reliability problems). The original cloud cars were renowned for their right size, good handling, frugality and styling. The LH cars introduced Cab Forward design and capable handling in a large car. The LX cars brought RWD back for the masses in the US. The Ram broke the mold for truck styling, and the new one broke the mold again for suspension and handling. The Dakota was the first, and for a long time, the only midsize truck and the only one to for a V8. And of course there's the Viper.

As far as design language goes, clearly you didn't think your post (at all) though. Since the mid 90's Dodge has had very clear styling languages. The 90's - early `00's were the swoopy, cab forward era. The Charger ushered in the more upright and sharp lines design languages. You can see the cues in the headlight detailing, fender flairs, strong lines, and of course the grill among other things.

Not just a split grill, some plastic cladding, and fake hood scoops.

Oh and of course there's the SRT vehicles, which unlike the SS badge, haven't been diluted.

Oh, and the Challenger doesn't have a crosshair grill because the original didn't.

I could go on and on but it's not like you'll pay attention to it.

Modern Buick people I talk to couldn't care less about their brand... they just got a deal.

Oh, so people you know are representative of an entire country?

[cire]

With Pontiac gone, Chevrolet is the division that should straddle the affordable mainstream and performance segments. Chevrolet already does this, it just needs to step it up some more by adding a few models that convey and emphasize the "sports" aspect of the brand.

Buick and GMC should focus on being modern premium brands. All of the brands' offerings need to be focused on providing a more luxurious and upscale experience than their platform mates (not rebadges) at Chevrolet. Upper trim levels can provide engines with more power, but the focus on luxury should still remain the top priority.

Cadillac should be a balanced blend between luxury and sport. Except for maybe a Voltec based car series, all the rest of the brand's car series and products should be RWD oriented (with AWD optional). CUVs can be based on FWD platforms, but they must offer AWD as standard equipment and provide a sporty driving experience.

[ZL-1]

With Pontiac gone, Chevrolet is the division that should straddle the affordable mainstream and performance segments. Chevrolet already does this, it just needs to step it up some more by adding a few models that convey and emphasize the "sports" aspect of the brand.

Buick and GMC should focus on being modern premium brands. All of the brands' offerings need to be focused on providing a more luxurious and upscale experience than their platform mates (not rebadges) at Chevrolet. Upper trim levels can provide engines with more power, but the focus on luxury should still remain the top priority.

Cadillac should be a balanced blend between luxury and sport. Except for maybe a Voltec based car series, all the rest of the brand's car series and products should be RWD oriented (with AWD optional). CUVs can be based on FWD platforms, but they must offer AWD as standard equipment and provide a sporty driving experience.

Spot on re Chevy and Cadillac IMO, although re Buick I have disagree slightly: I think Buick should offer nothing else than upper trim levels, i.e., no more CX trim levels.

[wildcat]

Modern Buick people I talk to couldn't care less about their brand

We need to talk.

[cire]

Spot on re Chevy and Cadillac IMO, although re Buick I have disagree slightly: I think Buick should offer nothing else than upper trim levels, i.e., no more CX trim levels.

Actually, I agree with you. Buick shouldn't offer any "stripped" models. All Buick products should be equipped with a very comprehensive list of standard equipment that would properly and solidly position the brand in the premium segment. Instead of trim levels, maybe Buick should offer very well equipped standard models with a small selection of stand alone options (GMC should as well).

I do think there should still be some engine choices, though. There are people who might prefer a fuel efficient choice, but still want all the bells and whistles.

[wildcat]

That makes sense.

[SAmadei]

You misunderstood what I said. Years ago Chryslers could be compared with Cadillac. However it hasn't been that way for decades. Although, the 300M was a better performance car than what Cadillac had to offer at the time.

Cadillac was trying to offer a performance car at the time? Not really.

I drove the 300M... Nice styling and gauges. I'd rather have a Cadillac. The guy who owned it had a long history of Cadillacs, and only bought the 300M because his business was failing and Cadillac wouldn't give him credit.

OTOH, one can compare Yugos to Cadillacs. Apples and Oranges.

First, the crosshair grill has been around for decades. Before the Ram even existed.

Looks like a Dodge truck to me, call it a D-100 or a Ram, a rose by any other name....

Where is the cross-hair grille on the Polara? The Aspen? The original Charger?

Second, it's not stealing. Unless I guess Pontiac stole the split grill from one of it's models (or BMW? I can give misinformation too)

Stealing from their truck line. IMHO, it could have stayed there. I'm not accusing Dodge of a crime, only of using something from another source. People have been stealing ideas for millenia.

You can say Pontiac stole it from BMW... but of course BMW was barely heard of when Pontiac started using the split grill.

Next up. Dodge had several performance models with it's EEK cars like the Shadow CSX, Spirit R/T and such. The minivans changed the shape of the industry for people movers. The First gen Neons were touted as being worthy of competing with the Civics and such (before later reliability problems). The original cloud cars were renowned for their right size, good handling, frugality and styling. The LH cars introduced Cab Forward design and capable handling in a large car. The LX cars brought RWD back for the masses in the US. The Ram broke the mold for truck styling, and the new one broke the mold again for suspension and handling. The Dakota was the first, and for a long time, the only midsize truck and the only one to for a V8. And of course there's the Viper.

Did you not read _MY_ post? I said that the Neon was worthy, but had reliability problems. I give the LX credit. I give the Viper lots of credit, but I doubt the Viper shares many garages with other Dodges, unless its a Ram or a vintage musclecar.

Remember, we are talking dilution here. The cloud cars and the cab forward cars were all shared amongst Dodge, Chrysler, Plymouth AND Eagle... and did not differentiated.

I know my cars pretty well, and I have to drive up close to the cloud cars to tell one from another. I have my "1990s Cloud Car Spotter's Guide" in the glovebox just for such a reason. ;-)

Capable handling in a large car... uh, the 1992 Bonne SSEi is pretty capable.

As far as design language goes, clearly you didn't think your post (at all) though. Since the mid 90's Dodge has had very clear styling languages. The 90's - early `00's were the swoopy, cab forward era. The Charger ushered in the more upright and sharp lines design languages. You can see the cues in the headlight detailing, fender flairs, strong lines, and of course the grill among other things.

Cab-forward... yes, just like Chrysler had... and the great cab-forward experiment lasted one model revision. The cab-forward look wasn't even given to the mid-sized Dodge to give them family resemblance. Dilution.

Not just a split grill, some plastic cladding, and fake hood scoops.

Plastic is plastic. Takes an engineer a week to make a new mold. When everybody shares a roof line and door lines, its dilution. The Bonne and Grand Prix had more than just plastic. Unfortunately, the cars look kinda plain without the cladding... but that's because GM was designing platforms for Avis (with apologees to Moltar/Cubical for stealing his line... again).

So please list... in detail... the differences between the Dodge Neon and the Plymouth Neon.

Oh and of course there's the SRT vehicles, which unlike the SS badge, haven't been diluted.

First, its not brand-specific. That's like Chevy suddenly having GXPs or GS Stage 1s. Second... Caliber SRT-4. Diluted. I would argue the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 is diluted, as well... but going full bore against one with the Caprice on the freeway demonstrated it was NO joke. However, I feel like trucks are not "Street Racing Technology"... whereas some trucks might be "Super Sports". I agree, however, that SS is diluted by sticker-only upgrades.

Oh, and the Challenger doesn't have a crosshair grill because the original didn't.

I know that. But we're talking design language... and one has to play devil's advocate. In any case, the Challenger _was_ shown off with the cross-hair grill and could have gone to production with it, to help tie in a brand identity, history-be-damned. In 1970, however, the old Challenger egg-crate grill was fine to have on most of the other Dodges.

I could go on and on but it's not like you'll pay attention to it.

Of course not. Someone has a opinion that clashes with yours, they must be brain damaged or illiterate, right.

Well, I have my opinion, you have yours. Dodge, Chrysler, Buick... all as diluted or more than Pontiac was.

Oh, so people you know are representative of an entire country?

Maybe. Keep in mind, historically, I _am_ a Buick fan... so I talk Buicks with other people who have then, strangers or not. I have never found one who was into them as I was, unless they had something really kick-ass, like a GS or a GN. OTOH, to my surprise, I have had people approach me (remember, I have a build that dwarves football players and usually, I 'm wearing scrappy clothes or have mussed up hair. I am the one people usually avoid.) on tens of occasions and cheer on the Pontiac I had... regardless of condition or generic-ness.

Edit: I swear this auto correction is inserting garbage into my typing. Ugh.

Edited May 3, 2009 by SAmadei

[cire]

Yet another harebrained scheme posted by buyacargetaclue.

I don't know about that. Considering that we have a government implemented task force approving GM's plans, I don't think it's as far fetched as it may initially appear. I can see the government (whose opinions and decisions are usually questionable, especially to enthusiasts) going for something like this. Buick (which shares platforms with Chevrolet and is widely accepted as a FWD based brand by the general public) might end up appearing as a more viable and lucrative luxury division to the government than Cadillac. Buick has also achieved some high reliability/quality scores and is more of a global brand (China) than Cadillac (which seems to be more of a U.S. bound brand that isn't accepted as a credible luxury brand in any foreign markets for some reason). I'm certainly not endorsing this and I seriously don't want to see it happen, but I could see our government possibly pushing for something along these lines. I personally still see value and prosperity for the corporation if it maintained a three tier sales channel configuration: Chevrolet, Buick/GMC, and Cadillac.

[ZL-1]

Actually, I agree with you. Buick shouldn't offer any "stripped" models. All Buick products should be equipped with a very comprehensive list of standard equipment that would properly and solidly position the brand in the premium segment. Instead of trim levels, maybe Buick should offer very well equipped standard models with a small selection of stand alone options (GMC should as well).

I do think there should still be some engine choices, though. There are people who might prefer a fuel efficient choice, but still want all the bells and whistles.

That's exactly how I see Buick's future products.

Edited May 3, 2009 by ZL-1

[carman21]

What could Buick do to fill Pontiac's shoes? It's not even a legit question at this point. GM is staring down the bankruptcy barrel. As Chrysler is about to demonstrate this is a time to reset the company and do everything right as if you were starting a brand new company. Chevrolet handles what Pontiac did just fine. GM doesn't have unlimited resources for chasing down BMW and Mercedes with Cadillac. Select Cadillac vehicles (new SRX, Converj and maybe a less expensive GMT900 Escalade) should be moved over to Buick. Cadillac should be cancelled. It's either Cadillac or Buick, and I think Buick can pull off sharing parts and platforms with Chevy better than Cadillac. Plus, the automotive center of the universe is moving to China. Buick can build on that.

GMC. What do you think the future is for trucks in a more stringent CAFE world? Phase out GMC Chevy clones, move all medium-duty trucks to GMC and spin off the medium trucks to someone else. Retrench with Chevy Trucks to beat Ford, Dodge and Toyota.

Bottomline 2 channels: Chevy and Buick.

Brain Dead...

[regfootball]

why dodge exists and pontiac doesn't is criminal.

[Intrepidation]

Dodge = Mainstream like Chevy (therefore the bread and butter of Chrysler) but happens to have more performance models than Pontiac has.

Dodge is not the flawed part of Chrysler, the Chrysler brand is.

Also if Chrysler doesn't make it through bankruptcy you'll get your wish.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Dodge = Mainstream like Chevy (therefore the bread and butter of Chrysler) but happens to have more performance models than Pontiac has.

Dodge is not the flawed part of Chrysler, the Chrysler brand is.

Also if Chrysler doesn't make it through bankruptcy you'll get your wish.

If Dodge was part of GM, Dodge would be a flawed brand behind Chevy also. It's different when people are talking about the brand you care about, isn't it? When I look at Dodge, I see a lot of crap cars for the past 30 years, just like what you see when you look at Pontiac.

[Intrepidation]

If Dodge was part of GM, Dodge would be a flawed brand behind Chevy also. It's different when people are talking about the brand you care about, isn't it? When I look at Dodge, I see a lot of crap cars for the past 30 years, just like what you see when you look at Pontiac.

No....Dodge is Chrysler's mainstream brand, why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Their flaws are aging lackluster products like the Avenger, but the products it offers fit in fine with the brand's mission. If you want to draw parallels at least do it right.

Chrysler is the lower volume brand, and it's been dragged through the mud. What was once at least "premium" is nothing more than an uglier, reskinned Avenger, the old Pt Crusier that was supposed to go to Plymouth, and the "fancier" Caravan (even though the interior is not ant better). The 300 is all they have that actually is more premium than the Charger, but even then, base models got stuck with hubcaps and the 2.7.

So it would be more accurate to compare Chrysler and Pontiac as far as brands being dragged through the mud. Except if the brand went under I wouldn't swear off the entire company and go for a Bentley or some other ridiculous statement.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No....Dodge is Chrysler's mainstream brand, why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Their flaws are aging lackluster products like the Avenger, but the products it offers fit in fine with the brand's mission. If you want to draw parallels at least do it right.

Chrysler is the lower volume brand, and it's been dragged through the mud. What was once at least "premium" is nothing more than an uglier, reskinned Avenger, the old Pt Crusier that was supposed to go to Plymouth, and the "fancier" Caravan (even though the interior is not ant better). The 300 is all they have that actually is more premium than the Charger, but even then, base models got stuck with hubcaps and the 2.7.

So it would be more accurate to compare Chrysler and Pontiac as far as brands being dragged through the mud. Except if the brand went under I wouldn't swear off the entire company and go for a Bentley or some other ridiculous statement.

Pontiac in the past had enough volume to be a mainstream brand. That means nothing. Pontiac still outsells some mainstream brands. What's your point? Dodge had just as many crap cars as every other American brand. To say they are mainstream, doesn't change that fact. Chrysler made crap cars, Ford, Mercury, Buick, Chevy, Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, they all had their share of crap cars, no matter what their missions were. Are you saying it's ok for Dodge to make crap cars, because they aimed for a lower target?

Maybe Pontiacs tagline should have been, we make crap cars, because in your mind, they would fit their mission better, and shouldn't be killed because they are fulfilling their mission.

My point is, who cares about what they are advertised as? Compare the cars, and the cars alone, and Dodge did no better, or no worse than Pontiac. Just because Pontiac had a higher target, that doesn't make them a bigger failure.

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac in the past had enough volume to be a mainstream brand. That means nothing. Pontiac still outsells some mainstream brands. What's your point? Dodge had just as many crap cars as every other American brand. To say they are mainstream, doesn't change that fact. Chrysler made crap cars, Ford, Mercury, Buick, Chevy, Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, they all had their share of crap cars, no matter what their missions were. Are you saying it's ok for Dodge to make crap cars, because they aimed for a lower target?

Maybe Pontiacs tagline should have been, we make crap cars, because in your mind, they would fit their mission better, and shouldn't be killed because they are fulfilling their mission.

My point is, who cares about what they are advertised as? Compare the cars, and the cars alone, and Dodge did no better, or no worse than Pontiac. Just because Pontiac had a higher target, that doesn't make them a bigger failure.

Did i say it was ok that they made lousy cars? Where did I ever say that? Find those words or shut up and stop putting them in my mouth. That get's really old after a while.

I'll try again, and if you don't get it this time, well that's you're own problem.

Pontiac is supposed to be focused solely on "excitement". No when only two of those models fits the bill, and only one does it 100% right, there's a problem, whether you want to admit it or not.

Dodge is a mainstream brand that sell normal cars with sportier versions of most.

Anyway this thread is going nowhere, the sooner the mudslinging stops the better off we'll all be.

[Drew Dowdell]

Both of you simmer down now. I'm reopening this thread if it can return to a more civil tone.

[cire]

That's exactly how I see Buick's future products.

I went to Buick's website today to look at the Lucerne. I think the exterior styling is nice and appropriate for Buick. That's the best thing I can say about the car, though. The interior is hopelessly bland and stodgy; it definitely wouldn't seriously appeal to anyone who is in the market for a modern premium sedan. Then I looked at the spec sheet. Basically, the flagship sedan of the corporation's midmarket premium brand offers an anemic 227 hp 3.9L V6 engine paired with an outdated 4-speed automatic transmission. Foglights are standard equipment on the "Super" trim level only, you can't even get them as an option on the CX or CXL trim levels. There were other similar surprises on the specs and features list. Basically, I would not have thought that the Lucerne was a premium sedan, let alone the premium brand's flagship sedan, just by looking at the interior pictures or the specs and features list. What an injustice for what is supposed to be the corporation's midmarket premium brand. It just seems very uncompetitive. I hope GM is fixing this situation with the 2010 LaCrosse. I know Buick has some MSRP limitations, but none of the brand's products should be decontented to the extent that the brand's premium image and position is compromised just to be able to advertise a low price point. Conveying a sense of luxury and advanced tech should be higher priorities for Buick. If GM doesn't fix this, it won't be long before Buick will have completely derailed its positioning, image, and perception, just like Pontiac and Saturn. Buick can't just claim that its products are premium, it has to reinforce it with appropriate engineering, design, and equipment.

The website is in need of a serious makeover as well. It looks dingy, stodgy, outdated and sort of cheap. GM really needs to kick it up a few notches to make it attractive and appealing to a younger demographic.

That being said, the 2010 LaCrosse certainly looks the part of a premium flagship sedan. I just hope GM didn't cheap out on the features and details. If they did, then they may as well plan to close shop on this brand, just like they did with Pontiac. The whole point of having different brands is to use a combination of appropriate product and effective marketing to appeal to different segments and demographics. If the brand can't successfully do this, then it is basically worthless and unnecessary. Buick has a lot of potential if GM can manage to effectively tap into it.

[Intrepidation]

Well ain't that special.

I'm going to just ignore the previous arguments and start new.

I think all of Buick's models should have reasonable performance. There just isn't a big market for floating cars anymore. Having a Super LaCrosse would make for a nice halo car. However it shouldn't try to be like Pontiac, since that's not the brand's purpose.

Chevy is the closest thing to offer what Pontiac should have offered (in some cases more so, like the Cobalt SS but no G5 GXP).

This works fine, since, assuming Alpha is still on, Chevy was supposed to get one but not Pontiac...which was bass ackwards logic, but since Pontiac was terminated it makes sense. So with Alpha, a possible rebadge of the G8, Camaro, Cobalt SS, and Corvette, the performances bases are covered.

[regfootball]

Well ain't that special.

I'm going to just ignore the previous arguments and start new.

I think all of Buick's models should have reasonable performance. There just isn't a big market for floating cars anymore. Having a Super LaCrosse would make for a nice halo car. However it shouldn't try to be like Pontiac, since that's not the brand's purpose.

Chevy is the closest thing to offer what Pontiac should have offered (in some cases more so, like the Cobalt SS but no G5 GXP).

This works fine, since, assuming Alpha is still on, Chevy was supposed to get one but not Pontiac...which was bass ackwards logic, but since Pontiac was terminated it makes sense. So with Alpha, a possible rebadge of the G8, Camaro, Cobalt SS, and Corvette, the performances bases are covered.

Buicks should be able to outhandle their Lexus counterparts and equal them in noise isolation. Maybe something in the vein of Audis where you get steering feel and handling prowess but its not as the buff books would say 'sublime'. European feel but a little softer overall than a BMW. Maybe Buick going ahead needs those T type options to come back. Make the mase buick a better lexus and tune the t type options to something that can at least dance a little like a BMW.

[regfootball]

BTW when do we officially have to say Buicks have the road manners of the best Chinese cars?

[gm4life]

Buick has to build nice performing affordable luxury. As for filing Pontiac's shoes don't bother Chevy will do a better job of that than Buick, hate to say it. The only thing Buick could do is a Zeta GNX with a turbo 3.6L DOHC DI V6, that is all. (Sure thats a dream...) Part of the reason folks buy Pontiac's is because of what they stand for and there heritage, Buick doesn't have the same kind of history, sorry.

Edited May 7, 2009 by gm4life

[GMTruckGuy74]

Since Pontiac wasn't allowed to bring this over to North America, can Buick do it instead?

[Camino LS6]

Since Pontiac wasn't allowed to bring this over to North America, can Buick do it instead?

Seriously doubt it.

It would be a better fit at Chevy anyway, leaving more distance between it and the CTS wagon.

[ZL-1]

I went to Buick's website today to look at the Lucerne. I think the exterior styling is nice and appropriate for Buick. That's the best thing I can say about the car, though. The interior is hopelessly bland and stodgy; it definitely wouldn't seriously appeal to anyone who is in the market for a modern premium sedan. Then I looked at the spec sheet. Basically, the flagship sedan of the corporation's midmarket premium brand offers an anemic 227 hp 3.9L V6 engine paired with an outdated 4-speed automatic transmission. Foglights are standard equipment on the "Super" trim level only, you can't even get them as an option on the CX or CXL trim levels. There were other similar surprises on the specs and features list. Basically, I would not have thought that the Lucerne was a premium sedan, let alone the premium brand's flagship sedan, just by looking at the interior pictures or the specs and features list. What an injustice for what is supposed to be the corporation's midmarket premium brand. It just seems very uncompetitive. I hope GM is fixing this situation with the 2010 LaCrosse. I know Buick has some MSRP limitations, but none of the brand's products should be decontented to the extent that the brand's premium image and position is compromised just to be able to advertise a low price point. Conveying a sense of luxury and advanced tech should be higher priorities for Buick. If GM doesn't fix this, it won't be long before Buick will have completely derailed its positioning, image, and perception, just like Pontiac and Saturn. Buick can't just claim that its products are premium, it has to reinforce it with appropriate engineering, design, and equipment.

The website is in need of a serious makeover as well. It looks dingy, stodgy, outdated and sort of cheap. GM really needs to kick it up a few notches to make it attractive and appealing to a younger demographic.

That being said, the 2010 LaCrosse certainly looks the part of a premium flagship sedan. I just hope GM didn't cheap out on the features and details. If they did, then they may as well plan to close shop on this brand, just like they did with Pontiac. The whole point of having different brands is to use a combination of appropriate product and effective marketing to appeal to different segments and demographics. If the brand can't successfully do this, then it is basically worthless and unnecessary. Buick has a lot of potential if GM can manage to effectively tap into it.

[aldw]

Buick being FWD/AWD and Cadillac being RWD/AWD would allow for better product differentiation methinks.

[GMTruckGuy74]

Seriously doubt it.

It would be a better fit at Chevy anyway, leaving more distance between it and the CTS wagon.

Yeah, I know Camino... just wishing that wagon was available here now though.

[cire]

That's exactly how I see Buick's future products.

GM still doesn't get it! I went to Buick's website today. They have updated information for the 2010 LaCrosse. A visitor to the website can compare trim levels and build one now. The CX trim level needs to be deleted because it is too stripped down for a Buick or any premium level car. It is worrisome to see that GM still doesn't appear to know how to run a properly competitive premium division.

The 2010 LaCrosse needs to be equipped and priced near the Acura TL and Lexus ES. Only then will it be considered as a serious entry in the segment. The car appears to have the goods to make a serious impact in the segment (or as serious as it can make in a stagnant economy), GM needs to show that it has some faith in it by allowing it to compete head on with its major competitors.

It's truly pitiful when you look at what will probably be Buick's future flagship and realize that it comes in a base trim level (CX) where alloy wheels, foglights, and automatic dual zone climate control are not standard features. This will do nothing to elevate or transform Buick's image or status. The brand does not need to be an affordable alternative to Chevrolet and GM needs to seriously realize this and act on it.

Edited May 31, 2009 by cire

[regfootball]

sat in a g8 the other day at a dealer.

sorry, but no way can buick fill pontiac's shoes. pontiac gone is a terrible nightmare for which there is no fix or way to compensate and buick should not have the burden of trying to make up for it.

[Camino LS6]

Got a letter today from the dealer I bought my GTO from.

They invited me to a "debut" of the 2010 LaCrosse, with refreshments provided.

How exciting.

Filed it in the circular file.

[Camino LS6]

Then again, a free meal wouldn't be all that bad...

[gm4life]

Build a Zeta or Alpha based twin turbo direct injected 3.6L V6 powered GNX!

[ocnblu]

Then again, a free meal wouldn't be all that bad...

I'm afraid I'd have to eat the salesmen alive if they even hinted at trying to sell me a LaCrosse to replace the erstwhile GTO.

[Camino LS6]

[frogger]

No wood or plood in the interior, no cushy soft seats, more feel and feedback for driver, lower ride height, dark gray or black interior, not heavy for class, less exterior chrome, 50 or lower profile tires. Manual trannies available.

I'm not holding my breath.

[hyperv6]

No wood or plood in the interior, no cushy soft seats, more feel and feedback for driver, lower ride height, dark gray or black interior, not heavy for class, less exterior chrome, 50 or lower profile tires. Manual trannies available.

I'm not holding my breath.

A little tasteful wood is fine.

Seats should be comforatble but no racing Recaro's in a Buick.

Sterring at GM has improved on most new cars.

Can't get too low or it will be undrivable. My SS already pushes snow at 6 inches on the front bumper.

A wider range of interior colors whould be used. Everyone does not want black or gray.

Less weight is great now just figure out how to keep it affordable and quiet. Note even the glass in the Lacrosse is thicker and heavier for sound control.

Some tasteful chrome is on a come back in the entire industry. Just don't get carried away. Billet accents?

50 series tires are a little extreem with no other options. All wheels should be 17" and aluminum no steel or caps.

Manual tranny? Who is going to buy it. You would be lucky to sell 6% of the total sales. Would it even cover the cost to go through the EPA ratings. I want to see a 6 speed option too but if it is not going to sell it becomes a money pit. The HHR SS panel sounded like a great idea and many said they wanted it. But I got the numbers this week and they sold 216 units.

A manual tranny is like when people tell you let me know when you sell your car, I want to buy it. When you tell them it is for sale the buyers all vanish.

Buick just needs to improve on the Lacrosse formula and they will be fine. If they can beat Lexus and Lincoln they will do fine. Even if they are lower volume here the sales in China will covermost of the development cost of the plaform.

Buick has always been a affordable luxury car company with a couple performance cars not a perfromance company with a few luxury cars. Refinement and quality are their keys with out rebadging Chevys.

Edited September 17, 2009 by hyperv6

[CaddyXLR-V]

A little tasteful wood is fine.

Seats should be comforatble but no racing Recaro's in a Buick.

Sterring at GM has improved on most new cars.

Can't get too low or it will be undrivable. My SS already pushes snow at 6 inches on the front bumper.

A wider range of interior colors whould be used. Everyone does not want black or gray.

Less weight is great now just figure out how to keep it affordable and quiet. Note even the glass in the Lacrosse is thicker and heavier for sound control.

Some tasteful chrome is on a come back in the entire industry. Just don't get carried away. Billet accents?

50 series tires are a little extreem with no other options. All wheels should be 17" and aluminum no steel or caps.

Manual tranny? Who is going to buy it. You would be lucky to sell 6% of the total sales. Would it even cover the cost to go through the EPA ratings. I want to see a 6 speed option too but if it is not going to sell it becomes a money pit. The HHR SS panel sounded like a great idea and many said they wanted it. But I got the numbers this week and they sold 216 units.

A manual tranny is like when people tell you let me know when you sell your car, I want to buy it. When you tell them it is for sale the buyers all vanish.

Buick just needs to improve on the Lacrosse formula and they will be fine. If they can beat Lexus and Lincoln they will do fine. Even if they are lower volume here the sales in China will covermost of the development cost of the plaform.

Buick has always been a affordable luxury car company with a couple performance cars not a perfromance company with a few luxury cars. Refinement and quality are their keys with out rebadging Chevys.

So your saying GM should keep the same strategy they have had over the past 20 years. Great idea.

Some of us don't like wood in cars, don't want a car as high as a truck, want a manual transmission, and like less chrome or even no chrome. Everything you said is how to lose more Pontiac buyers, not get them back.

[hyperv6]

So your saying GM should keep the same strategy they have had over the past 20 years. Great idea.

Some of us don't like wood in cars, don't want a car as high as a truck, want a manual transmission, and like less chrome or even no chrome. Everything you said is how to lose more Pontiac buyers, not get them back.

Bud I like what you like but serving only 6% of the market with a manual tranny is not all that smart. Many of the other thing you ans I like also are in the very small minority.

If you note Audi, BMW, Benz Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, Lexus, Lincoln, Acura, Hyundia Toyota, Bugatti and just about every other car company now sports restrained chrome. GM is playing catch up here.

No one said the car would be high as a truck if you have ever seen the Lacrosse it has a very low profile but the average person still can get into it without bashing their skull. These are sedans for the most part and not Camaro's. It smart to make it lower than practical? I can see it now with 4 people in the car it scaping the concrete going into a parking lot.

If the wood is as it is now in the new car it is fine and it is expected by most buyers in this market. A billet look would also be nice but how much would it add to the price?

Sorry but you lost Pontiac years ago. Buick also was neither Quality and Refined in the last 20 years compared to the others in the class it is fighting in. That is how they lost the share they did have.

You had better look around and see what is selling. People are buying Genesis sedans like crazy. Is it a car for enthusiast....NO. Is it a car that the majority of average buyers want to buy yes. Hyundia and Lexus went out and built a better Buick and it is time GM did the same as there are a lot of people with money in this segment. The They sold a hell of a lot more Le Sabre's than GN's. The funny part is the guy who turned Hyundi around came from Buick.

Use your head on what would make money in this segment vs what you want. When GM looks at the MY Domestic Penetration totals the features you want will show as a 7.4% on the sheets not a 75%. Not a good way to make a profit.

The fact is this part of the market is not for the performance enthusiast for the most part. Or lets put it this way the kind of enthusiast on this web site. I would not expect the kind of car and market that Buick needs to target to be popular here. Lets face it how many Hyundia, Lexus or Lincoln fans are here?

The bottom line is GM needs to cater to the main stream crowd as they buy most of the cars. Boring Yes but very profitable.

When you choose idea's and product for a company you really need to use both head and your heart and I feel that is what Lutz is doing. If we all built car here that our hearts loved we would bankrupt a company faster than GM did on their own. The boring cars are what pay the bills not the low volume fun cars.

[Camino LS6]

In other words, GM isn't even trying to keep its Pontiac buyers.

Though they claim otherwise.

[Robert Hall]

In other words, GM isn't even trying to keep its Pontiac buyers.

Though they claim otherwise.

I think they are just trying to survive right now... Chevy can fill the Avis niche Pontiac left behind (weren't many sales at Pontiac in this decade fleet)? Other than a few low-volume speciality models (GTO, G8, Solstice) the rest of late-model Pontiac were just forgettable FWD generics that Chevy has plenty of... beyond the G8 and Solstice, any Excitement!! was just marketing.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Robert Hall]

So your saying GM should keep the same strategy they have had over the past 20 years. Great idea.

Some of us don't like wood in cars, don't want a car as high as a truck, want a manual transmission, and like less chrome or even no chrome. Everything you said is how to lose more Pontiac buyers, not get them back.

That's not a Buick, though. Buicks are automatics,smooth, quiet cushy ride, comfy soft interiors, wood. Different demographic.

[Camino LS6]

I think they are just trying to survive right now... Chevy can fill the Avis niche Pontiac left behind (weren't the majority of sales at Pontiac in this decade fleet)? Other than a couple low-volume speciality models (G8, Solstice) the rest of late-model Pontiac were just forgettable FWD generics that Chevy has plenty of... beyond the G8 and Solstice, any Excitement!! was just marketing.

That's BS, and beside the point to boot.

The thread is about what Buick can do to attract Pontiac buyers, and GM claims to be making an effort in that regard.

So, where's the beef?

[Robert Hall]

That's BS, and beside the point to boot.

The truth hurts--what was special about the G3, G5, G6 or Vibe? Just FWD generics. No Excitement!!!

I can see Buick offering Buick-style sport sedans--emphasis on luxury with some sport--maybe sort of Saab like sophistication w/ Buick style. But I can't see them offering anything as overtly sporty as the good Pontiacs (G8, GTO, Solstice).

Edited September 18, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

Buick was far more 'comfy'-oriented when the GN / GNXs were wildly popular, yet Pontiac was meanwhile pedaling Firebirds / TAs with little problem.

I have no issue with a refined yet in-yer-face Buick the likes of the GN again- there's no ideaological reason I can see to vote against it. That said, the marque & the product has to be positioned right.

'Buick go after Pontiac buyers' ?? 'How is B-GMC supposed to compete with Chevy dealers' ?? Old GM think.