Who said Obama wasn't behind the death of Pontiac?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

DISCUSS (for the 30 seconds that this thread will be open)

And I

"Pontiac was the first real muscle car and the government doesn't want muscle cars," favoring fuel efficient models, Wolkonowicz said. "I'm sad to see this brand go, it's truly iconic."

I'm not sure I agree with the implications of the article, but whatever.

Edited April 26, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Daryl Z71]

[Camino LS6]

That's the price of government involvement.

However wrongheaded it may be.

[FAPTurbo]

And yet... they're keeping the GMC line, which is filled with gas-guzzzlers, leading me to once again believe this is not a politcally motivated decision. Instead, it's because GM hadn't had a clue what to do with Pontiac for ages, and is now paying for their poor management.

[Daryl Z71]

That's the price of government involvement.

However wrongheaded it may be.

Well we still have Ford..........

[Camino LS6]

And yet... they're keeping the GMC line, which is filled with gas-guzzzlers, leading me to once again believe this is not a politcally motivated decision. Instead, it's because GM hadn't had a clue what to do with Pontiac for ages, and is now paying for their poor management.

The thing is, the "savings" from killing Pontiac vs. keeping it as a niche brand are nil.

And the costs will prove to be high.

[Drew Dowdell]

I said that, at the time, you couldn't say that the Obama administration forced Pontiac's closure. All you gotta do is back up your statements.

[Drew Dowdell]

The thing is, the "savings" from killing Pontiac vs. keeping it as a niche brand are nil.

And the costs will prove to be high.

This is probably bankruptcy prep. If Pontiac's closure is done under Chap11, the costs won't be anything like Oldsmobile.

[Camino LS6]

The scary thing isn't the administration's motives so much as their complete lack of understanding of the auto business.

Something that sadly, they share with the previous administration.

Government has a long-standing negative impact on the industry.

[Camino LS6]

This is probably bankruptcy prep. If Pontiac's closure is done under Chap11, the costs won't be anything like Oldsmobile.

Those aren't the costs I was referring to.

[Drew Dowdell]

The scary thing isn't the administration's motives so much as their complete lack of understanding of the auto business.

Something that sadly, they share with the previous administration.

Government has a long-standing negative impact on the industry.

I'm not so sure I agree that they don't understand the auto business. What I am sure of is that they are looking 20-30 years down the road and if GM has any hopes of being there, they need to cut very very deep.

What I will agree with is that the government is going about this the entirely wrong way. GM should have declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and let the government do the financing for it. I don't know what all the fear about bankruptcy is about. Nearly every airline has been there. Donald Trump has done it like 10 times and he's still around.

It's the only way to shed the albatrosses.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

///Sigh/// I wish Bush hadn't started all this Bail-out crap... promoting inefficient market practices... extra bureaucracy... Bush was no economic/fiscal conservative, that's for sure!

I suppose as long as GM retains the rights to Pontiac it would not be all that hard to reintroduce it at a later date.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Daryl Z71]

I'm not so sure I agree that they don't understand the auto business. What I am sure of is that they are looking 20-30 years down the road and if GM has any hopes of being there, they need to cut very very deep.

What I will agree with is that the government is going about this the entirely wrong way. GM should have declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and let the government do the financing for it. I don't know what all the fear about bankruptcy is about. Nearly every airline has been there. Donald Trump has done it like 10 times and he's still around.

It's the only way to shed the albatrosses.

I know everything I hear about bankruptcy seems better than this.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not so sure I agree that they don't understand the auto business. What I am sure of is that they are looking 20-30 years down the road and if GM has any hopes of being there, they need to cut very very deep.

What I will agree with is that the government is going about this the entirely wrong way. GM should have declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and let the government do the financing for it. I don't know what all the fear about bankruptcy is about. Nearly every airline has been there. Donald Trump has done it like 10 times and he's still around.

It's the only way to shed the albatrosses.

The members of the auto task force have said as much...

As for bankruptcy, that or sufficient government loans at the outset would have been infinitely better than month after month of limbo.

I'd wager that GM's chances have dimished by at least 50% in that time.

Decisive action was called for last fall - we are far past the point of losing the effectiveness that could have had.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If GM files for Ch. 11, they will NOT be around in 20-30 years.

There will be NO "quick and easy" bankruptcy. And once that damage is done, NO ONE will buy GM cars. Hell, GM can't even get the import idiots to consider their cars NOW much less once they're "No longer a safe bet" because of bankruptcy.

Let me outline it for you in a few bullet points:

1) GM will NEVER conquest sales again... Not unless they "raise" buyers by marketing to the youth. The import intenders didn't give a rats ass about GM to begin with and now that GM's predicament and the media have all but cut the head off of this once mighty company, they will NEVER see those people again.

2) Even if we except that fact; at least 50% of the population is pissed off that "such a horrible company" is getting "a bailout" from "the dream team". Those people will not only NOT buy GM, they will work as hard as possible to get others not to.

3) GM still has its owners and loyalists, right? NOT SO FAST.... GM has alienated MANY of it's loyalists now that it has eliminated 2 of it's hottest brands (Saturn & Pontiac -- Go to any GM site, to the "people that know" these are two of the hottest brands) one of which pulls a HUGE amount of buyers (fleet included or not) It has alienated MANY more enthusiasts by eliminating it's 2 most customized/niche brands (Hummer & Saab --- these brands hold a lot of the mOST loyal people)

4) There is NO SUCH THING as an "easy" bankruptcy... The government isn't going to help GM any more than they have to. This is because of 2 reasons 1) Consumer/citizens WANT the company to fail, ESPECIALLY the citizens that this administration plays to. 2) Because GM is the government's enemy. Everyone seems to keep forgetting that these people HATED this company not even 6 months ago.

GM will 1) eliminate Pontiac to appease people that never intend to buy a GM car in the first place. 2) Enter bankrupcty with the assumption that big brother will be it's savior. 3) Big brother will abandon GM and the company will suffer a long, painful death while big brother hypes Ford and "transplants" as the key to our success.

-OR-

GM will 1) eliminate Pontiac to appease people that will never buy GM anyway 2) Enter bankruptcy where GMC will be killed as a condition of big brother guiding them through it. 3) emerge from bankruptcy like a lion 4) watch as sales stagnate because no one will buy cars from them. 5) Eliminate Buick and move cadillac down market withing 2 years of the filing. 6) Sell Cadillac and 7) continue to sell Chevrolets as a NICHE brand to those of us that still care until we die off.

Everyday, I fear more and more that there will be NO good end to this. The media, half of the population and half of the government want to burn GM on the cross, so much so that I just realized that I won't HAVE to buy Pontiacs in niche capacity, I'll get to buy Chevrolet's in a niche capacity!

When it all shakes out, the sales leader in america will be Toyota with around 20% of the market. Hyundai & Kia will be #2, Honda and Nissan will battle it out for #3 and Ford will sit at #5 (Their image is still too negative for most americans to care... Not to mention, once GM and Chrysler have "been dealt with" the media and anti-Detroit will refocus it's energy on a 'fragile' Ford until it finishes the job)

Edited April 26, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I suppose as long as GM retains the rights to Pontiac it would not be all that hard to reintroduce it at a later date.

I'm actually kind of optimistic about that but it makes too much sense, so I doubt it'll ever happen.

[Daryl Z71]

The government needs to put the word out that every time people buy an import car our economy goes further into the toilet! This is part of the problem now, that along with GM's management. I don't see whats so bad about buying a car from a bankrupt company as long as you like the damn thing. Ugh I don't get Americans lol

[Oracle of Delphi]

I suppose as long as GM retains the rights to Pontiac it would not be all that hard to reintroduce it at a later date.

You mean like GM did for Oldsmobile?

[vonVeezelsnider]

You mean like GM did for Oldsmobile?

My dad is still waiting on that one... I don't think he gets it.

If this was a politically motivated decision than GMC would not have been spared, trust me.

[Daryl Z71]

My dad is still waiting on that one... I don't think he gets it.

If this was a politically motivated decision than GMC would not have been spared, trust me.

Yea sounds kinda fishy to me?

[Camino LS6]

If this was a politically motivated decision than GMC would not have been spared, trust me.

Everything is political in one sense or another.

[ShadowDog]

I guess GM should have stayed away from government-sponsorship and chose their own path to profitable success that included all of its brands.

I guess they'll also start issuing hunting licenses for flying swine, too.

[evok]

DISCUSS (for the 30 seconds that this thread will be open)

And I

I'm not sure I agree with the implications of the article, but whatever.

"Pontiac was the first real muscle car and the government doesn't want muscle cars," favoring fuel efficient models, Wolkonowicz said. "I'm sad to see this brand go, it's truly iconic."

I see mass hysteria and conspiricy theories were created on one idiotic statement from a hack and self proclaimed historian in Mass.

I assure everyone, do not believe what you read in these quotables. These guys know jack $h! about what is happening.

[gm4life]

///Sigh/// I wish Bush hadn't started all this Bail-out crap... promoting inefficient market practices... extra bureaucracy... Bush was no economic/fiscal conservative, that's for sure!

I suppose as long as GM retains the rights to Pontiac it would not be all that hard to reintroduce it at a later date.

Amen. If Pontiac goes now it is gone for good I think though, they just need one model or two to remain as place holders.

[gm4life]

I guess GM should have stayed away from government-sponsorship and chose their own path to profitable success that included all of its brands.

I guess they'll also start issuing hunting licenses for flying swine, too.

Yup, that could very well happen.

[gm4life]

I know everything I hear about bankruptcy seems better than this.

Olds and Daryl both of you are right. It would have BEEN much better than this.

[biff]

GMC gets spared because they're #2 in sales. Obama's going to save GM because he needs votes in the rust belt. But he's going to push small cars for his green pals. That's my take. I hope Ford can stay away from government control. Someone needs to keep building large trucks and SUV's for us folks in rural areas.

[Camino LS6]

GMC gets spared because they're #2 in sales. Obama's going to save GM because he needs votes in the rust belt. But he's going to push small cars for his green pals. That's my take. I hope Ford can stay away from government control. Someone needs to keep building large trucks and SUV's for us folks in rural areas.

And those of us who actually, you know, build things

*gasp*

[biff]

And those of us who actually, you know, build things

*gasp*

Exactly!

[Daryl Z71]

And those of us who actually, you know, build things

*gasp*

Yea not everyone gets to sit behind a desk. Some people have to get dirty.

[Robert Hall]

And those of us who actually, you know, build things

*gasp*

Hey...I build things also... it just doesn't have physical form. I sit in a cube or in conference rooms building stuff. Complex stuff.

[Chicagoland]

Some forget that the GOP basically told Motown to "f off" and that Hyundai in Alabama can 'pick up the slack'. They see Detroit as UAW and non-white voters that they don't care about. So, don't blame anyone, if McCain/Palin won, they would have said, "sayonnra, everyone can buy Asian from now on"

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Some forget that the GOP basically told Motown to "f off" and that Hyundai in Alabama can 'pick up the slack'. They see Detroit as UAW and non-white voters that they don't care about. So, don't blame anyone, if McCain/Palin won, they would have said, "sayonnra, everyone can buy Asian from now on"

Naw, they would have done the same exact thing Obama is doing considering McCain isn't really all that conservative, the only thing we could have relied on McCain for woulda been a smaller budget.

Now if Ron Paul had won, he would've told the automakers and all the financial sectors to FOLLOW THE DAMN RULES and go Ch. 11.

Both sides care more about votes than actual economic well being so don't try and act like they don't.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[turbo200]

with 22% market share, does spending the resources to maintain 8 brands make sense? with volume of 260k units overall, and less than half that on retail, a brand outlined as being unprofitable by the new CEO, does keeping Pontiac alive make sense? i know there are other brands in america with as little volume......do those brand have the gargantuan amount of dealers pontiac posseses, or the plants GM has with the excess pay/bonuses GM has to give. along with Buick/GMC, the combined volume yearly reaches 850k units.....combining fleet sales [i don't know if all fleets are done at the dealer]. i think this is a way for gm to get rid of factories, dealers, etc to get down to the necessities, profit and volume. what's left that has equity. though we passionate few believe in pontiac's equity, looking at it from the numbers, pontiac's equity may have been gone long before the year 2000 [01 began massive discounts, 2000 saw heavy fleets for gran prix and grand am, that has pretty much never let up]

[balthazar]

The problem with the above is.... I thought all GM cars were merely "badge-engineered", not uniquely engineered products by autonomous divisions ?? "8 brands" is only a discussion point if the "badge-engineered" claim is majorly true.

No; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, where --to be more accurate-- GM must be maintaining (cost-wise) more like 4 divisions at best. It does not cost double to -say- create 10 ads for Chevy as it does to create 5 each for Pontiac/ Chevy. (Effectiveness is another matter, of course, and yes; there's a ROI there.)

Also, there are no stand-alone Pontiac plants, hasn't been one since the home plant in Pontiac MI, which must be gone as a Pontiac-only plant since the early '80s. Shuttering Pontiac can ONLY reduce plant count if all are running at near capacity, and the reduced volume allows shuffling volume to do so. Otherwise, we still have plants running at an even lesser volume... or more inefficiently.

Fleet is largely immaterial unless it's done at a net loss. mazda is a fleet whore on the same order as Pontiac, yet somehow that's never an issue over there.

[buyacargetacheck]

The savings from being able to close at least two underutilized and unprofitable plants that produce mainly Pontiacs (Wilmington and Orion) won't be small. Plus the millions spent on all the ridiculous advertising trying to convince the general population that Pontiacs are much more than just Chevy reskins. News Flash kids: Pontiac died 30+ years ago.

The thing is, the "savings" from killing Pontiac vs. keeping it as a niche brand are nil.

And the costs will prove to be high.

[CaddyXLR-V]

with 22% market share, does spending the resources to maintain 8 brands make sense? with volume of 260k units overall, and less than half that on retail, a brand outlined as being unprofitable by the new CEO, does keeping Pontiac alive make sense? i know there are other brands in america with as little volume......do those brand have the gargantuan amount of dealers pontiac posseses, or the plants GM has with the excess pay/bonuses GM has to give. along with Buick/GMC, the combined volume yearly reaches 850k units.....combining fleet sales [i don't know if all fleets are done at the dealer]. i think this is a way for gm to get rid of factories, dealers, etc to get down to the necessities, profit and volume. what's left that has equity. though we passionate few believe in pontiac's equity, looking at it from the numbers, pontiac's equity may have been gone long before the year 2000 [01 began massive discounts, 2000 saw heavy fleets for gran prix and grand am, that has pretty much never let up]

I want to hear your arguement when GM has 3 brands and 12% marketshare.

[Drew Dowdell]

I want to hear your arguement when GM has 3 brands and 12% marketshare.

Percent of market share, much like horsepower per liter, is a non-starter.

I much rather a profitable, healthy, and innovative GM at 12% than a lumbering giant, drifting into the iceburg at 22%

[deftonesfan867]

I see mass hysteria and conspiricy theories were created on one idiotic statement from a hack and self proclaimed historian in Mass.

I assure everyone, do not believe what you read in these quotables. These guys know jack $h! about what is happening.

Indeed.