GM ready to let Opel go for free?

[Bimmer325]

It's funny. Opel has better cars than just about any GMNA brand and everyone here is glad to see them go. Then again, GM loyalists have never really had a handle on what's good for the company.

[ZL-1]

Opel has better cars than just about any GMNA brand and everyone here is glad to see them go.

I find it funny too.

My prediction is still that GME (w/o SAAB), GMDAT+Holden and good-GMNA (i.e., Chevrolet-Buick-Cadillac) will regroup as a new-GM.

Edited April 25, 2009 by ZL-1

[Chazman]

My prediction is still that GME (w/o SAAB), GMDAT+Holden and good-GMNA (i.e., Chevrolet-Buick-Cadillac) will regroup as a new-GM.

I suspect the same.

[ZL-1]

I suspect the same.

Everything points that way. It will almost be a US Government-sponsored asset stripping: take the good assets out, regroup them as a new entity and let the bad pieces rot away. The potentially good pieces for which there is no space in the new structure (i.e., Saturn and SAAB) are sold off.

Stuff like I what I read on saabsunited.com, about how people are now openly saying that it were GM corporate overhead charges that made both SAAB and Opel/Vauxhall lose money over all of these years, trully amaze me... apparently, removing GM's overhead charges and adding a fully independent structure would allow SAAB to have its breakeven point (earnings-wise) at around 130K units/year, a target SAAB could easily reach if the 9-5 wasn't as old as a dinossaur and the 9-3 wasn't based on a 10-year old Vectra... I wonder what performing the same exercise on top of Opel's accounts would yield...

Edited April 25, 2009 by ZL-1

[Camino LS6]

It's funny. Opel has better cars than just about any GMNA brand and everyone here is glad to see them go. Then again, GM loyalists have never really had a handle on what's good for the company.

Better?

In what way?

They build nothing I would own.

So, no, I won't miss them at all.

[Intrepidation]

Better?

In what way?

They build nothing I would own.

So, no, I won't miss them at all.

Just because you and 4 other people won't want to own them doesn't mean they aren't better than most of what we have in NA now.

[enzl]

Better?

In what way?

They build nothing I would own.

So, no, I won't miss them at all.

Agreed.

What euro-product does GME have that could be plugged in here at its natural pricepoint? Where precisely is GME's leadership position on any given platform they've got? There are tons of mid-level, mid-market sedans out there that are either market stalwarts (Accord, Camry) or simply very good (Fusion, 6) --- so we preserve GME because we need to throw some of their 75% designs to the marketplace wolves? And continue to underwrite another dying appendage of GM?

I'd sooner partner for the B/C/D platforms that GME & GMNA currently plan to share. Fiat appears available for partnerships? Nissan had already expressed interest, according to Old-New Chrysler. According to the former GME employee on this site, GME considered itself separate & superior anyway...why not actually go to an outside company that might rightly believe that about their product in these sectors?

Edited April 26, 2009 by enzl

[regfootball]

Buy Saturn, get Opel free? That would be a way for someone to get some cars and a large, globalish dealer network without too much work. Lets say Chery gives GM a few hundred million for Saturn, if GM throws Opel in with it and if they can continue to sell the current product line. Saturn and Opel could continue to tread water while Chery tries to get their Chinese designed and made vehicles into the U.S. and Europe using somewhat established nameplates.

so does that mean GM could sell opels as saturns for awhile? i actually kind of like that. an insignia OPC would be a nice ride.

maybe then opel could design the cars and chery could make em and saturn could sell em.

[Camino LS6]

Just because you and 4 other people won't want to own them doesn't mean they aren't better than most of what we have in NA now.

They haven't exactly lit up the sales charts , now have they?

I'm still waiting to hear how they are "better".

Last I heard they lacked interior detail, cost too much, and were mid-pack in the MPG department.

[Intrepidation]

They haven't exactly lit up the sales charts , now have they?

I'm still waiting to hear how they are "better".

Last I heard they lacked interior detail, cost too much, and were mid-pack in the MPG department.

Well Insignia won car of the year as I recall. The LaCrosse is on a GME engineered platform, the same one as I recall too. The Astra might sell better if GM didn't price it so. Isn't the Corsa good? I dunno there.

The problem is that, like the rest of GM< it's taken them until recently to get these products out.

[ZL-1]

Well Insignia won car of the year as I recall. The LaCrosse is on a GME engineered platform, the same one as I recall too. The Astra might sell better if GM didn't price it so. Isn't the Corsa good? I dunno there.

The Insignia is an excellent effort, especially in a segment with tons of company car sales and dominated by poverty spec 3-series and c-class mercedes (which are not offered in the US).

Re the Astra, it would also have helped if you guys didn't get it so far into its life cycle, and if certification money had gone into the 180hp 1.6L turbo instead of the 140hp 1.8L engine.

[THTom]

Better?

In what way?

They build nothing I would own.

So, no, I won't miss them at all.

Agreed.

What euro-product does GME have that could be plugged in here at its natural pricepoint? Where precisely is GME's leadership position on any given platform they've got? There are tons of mid-level, mid-market sedans out there that are either market stalwarts (Accord, Camry) or simply very good (Fusion, 6) --- so we preserve GME because we need to throw some of their 75% designs to the marketplace wolves? And continue to underwrite another dying appendage of GM?

I'd sooner partner for the B/C/D platforms that GME & GMNA currently plan to share. Fiat appears available for partnerships? Nissan had already expressed interest, according to Old-New Chrysler. According to the former GME employee on this site, GME considered itself separate & superior anyway...why not actually go to an outside company that might rightly believe that about their product in these sectors?

They haven't exactly lit up the sales charts , now have they?

GME is currently #3 in the entire European market.

Opel models are also sold Latin America, South America, Africa, the Middle East Asia, Australia and in in other markets, either as Opels and Vauxhalls or Chevies and Holdens.

Take a look at how many markets the Opel brand alone sells in:

http://www.opel.com/

Even the Chinese Buick Regal is an Opel Insignia. The future Chinese Buick Excelle/HRV is going to be based on the Astra. These cars account for a huge chunk of GM's global sales. And again, with Opel gone, say goodbye to Buick.

[Camino LS6]

We'll be saying goodbye to Buick anyway before long.

GM won't make any deal that leaves the architecture rights with Opel.

And, going forward, Opel isn't needed to develop new architectures.

[Oracle of Delphi]

We'll be saying goodbye to Buick anyway before long.

GM won't make any deal that leaves the architecture rights with Opel.

And, going forward, Opel isn't needed to develop new architectures.

Want to bet?

[Camino LS6]

Want to bet?

On which point?

Marketing Buick in North America is beating a dead horse in any from beyond a niche brand.

GMNA will protect its rights to current architectures because it has no choice.

And finally, Opel has proven that it can't provide a profitable platform in our market.

So yeah, I'll take that bet.

[THTom]

We'll be saying goodbye to Buick anyway before long.

GM won't make any deal that leaves the architecture rights with Opel.

And, going forward, Opel isn't needed to develop new architectures.

I can see that in North America, but Buick's still huge in China, with Opel playing a hand in that. In fact, Buick is GM's largest brand there. And with the Chinese auto market set to overtake the US's and become one of the largest...

On which point?

Marketing Buick in North America is beating a dead horse in any from beyond a niche brand.

GMNA will protect its rights to current architectures because it has no choice.

And finally, Opel has proven that it can't provide a profitable platform in our market.

So yeah, I'll take that bet.

Along with Daewoo, Opel is still GM's lifeblood in the global market outside of NA and Europe.

[Camino LS6]

I can see that in North America, but Buick's still huge in China, with Opel playing a hand in that. In fact, Buick is GM's largest brand there. And with the Chinese auto market set to overtake the US's and become one of the largest...

Along with Daewoo, Opel is still GM's lifeblood in the global market outside of NA and Europe.

So make Buick China only, or a NA niche brand - anything else is a fool's errand.

Daewoo is far more critical globally (assuming GM can hold onto any of its global brands). It also doesn't have the baggage that Opel does.

GM really doesn't need Opel, they are quite capable of designing and building cars with no help from Opel.

[vonVeezelsnider]

So make Buick China only, or a NA niche brand - anything else is a fool's errand.

Daewoo is far more critical globally (assuming GM can hold onto any of its global brands). It also doesn't have the baggage that Opel does.

Agreed... China is GM's largest market so why can't they have their own dedicated brand, that we don't get here? If you're losing money operating in North America then why bother continuing when you can maximize your profits by focusing the brand to the people who are actually consuming.

[SAmadei]

Agreed... China is GM's largest market so why can't they have their own dedicated brand, that we don't get here? If you're losing money operating in North America then why bother continuing when you can maximize your profits by focusing the brand to the people who are actually consuming.

China will be GM's largest market until China decides that they have stolen enough technology and manufacturing techniques to be globally competitive... then suddenly SAIC will suddenly inherit GM's share and will sell them worldwide as Buecks.

[Oracle of Delphi]

On which point?

Marketing Buick in North America is beating a dead horse in any from beyond a niche brand.

GMNA will protect its rights to current architectures because it has no choice.

And finally, Opel has proven that it can't provide a profitable platform in our market.

So yeah, I'll take that bet.

You'll lose on all points ...

Edited April 26, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

You'll lose on all points ...

We shall see.

[Satty]

Loser has to wear a French Maid outfit while serving as the winner's personal assistant for a week.

The best part is everybody wins! And simultaneously loses! No matter who wins the bet.

[Camino LS6]

Loser has to wear a French Maid outfit while serving as the winner's personal assistant for a week.

The best part is everybody wins! And simultaneously loses! No matter who wins the bet.

Speaking only for myself, I would rather not see either of us so attired.

[haypops]

This discussion has become difficult because of the greater integration of GME into the GM worldwide picture. However, maybe we can split good Opel and bad Opel apart for the discussion.

Bad Opel V6 engine = 58 degree 3l. v6 that nearly killed Cadillac and did kill Saturn

Bad Opel 4 cylinder engine; anything before good Opel via the Saturn patented loss foam casting technique used on the Ecotec.

Bad Opel transmissions any thing automatic before the new good Opel GM hydramatic inspired automatics.

The European car market is even more crowded than our own. Separating out Opel from GMDAT will give the latter more room to move upmarket slightly at lower cost.

None of this means I am really for the split up; just pointing to some advantages.

[Camino LS6]

Some of the "baggage" I was talking about...

[THTom]

So make Buick China only, or a NA niche brand - anything else is a fool's errand.

Daewoo is far more critical globally (assuming GM can hold onto any of its global brands). It also doesn't have the baggage that Opel does.

That's what I meant. Chinese Buick's line-up is still dependent on some Opel models.

GM really doesn't need Opel, they are quite capable of designing and building cars with no help from Opel.

Look what happened to Chrysler (pre-Daimler) when they lost control of their EU operations. They've never recovered since. Guess one reason for a large part of Ford's success right now.

In addition to that, GM still needs the Opel brand to sell it's products in many global markets. The brand's reach isn't just limited to Europe. It's basically the 'Chevy' of the majority of GM's global operations.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not so sure about that, what if Opel is just history?

There seems to be a prevailing wisdom that Opel cannot survive without a partner.

Honestly though, I expect that an agreement based on future co-operation will be struck in the end. With the change consisting mostly of percentage of ownership.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm not so sure about that, what if Opel is just history?

There seems to be a prevailing wisdom that Opel cannot survive without a partner.

Honestly though, I expect that an agreement based on future co-operation will be struck in the end. With the change consisting mostly of percentage of ownership.

More likely GM won't survive at all ...

[Camino LS6]

More likely GM won't survive at all ...

That's another chapter entirely.

Depending on upcoming events, I fear that is exactly what may happen.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's another chapter entirely.

Depending on upcoming events, I fear that is exactly what may happen.

You know I always know ...

[Camino LS6]

You know I always know ...

Not always.

And I have my own expectations about the endgame.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not always.

And I have my own expectations about the endgame.

The patient is comatose and all major organs are shutting down ...

[Camino LS6]

There are signs of life yet, but...

[Drew Dowdell]

I was told it was like Liberation day of Europe 1945 at Opel headquarters today. This is something all Opel workers have wanted for a long time. It's more to the point of saying Opel wanted to be free of GM, more than GM wants to be free of Opel. GM will have to give all Opel patents back to Opel, how sweet is that?

Now for the next phase, when Opel becomes free of GM 3 possibilities exist:

1. A merger with Fiat.

2. A merger with BMW.

3. Opel waits until Holden and Daewoo are also free, since all of GM's children will have to be set free, and then they all merge into a new car company.

I'm told the German government favors number 2 the most, then number 1, and finally number 3.

Time will tell, but the GM Empire is coming apart at the seams ...

Hopefully you and Opel will have the same effect on BMW that you've had on GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's funny. Opel has better cars than just about any GMNA brand and everyone here is glad to see them go. Then again, GM loyalists have never really had a handle on what's good for the company.

Uh, what modern Opels have you actually driven or ridden in? The Astra is probably the best of what they've got. The Insignia isn't even out yet but I'd feel perfectly comfortable putting it up against the Malibu and Lacrosse depending on the trim.

[enzl]

The patient is comatose and all major organs are shutting down ...

It's all fun & games until people start losing their jobs, and your attempts at gallows humor are not just offensive, they're not funny.

Again, you're actions and words indicate you're a rat of the highest order....I'd also suggest to any GM employees that visit this site find out exactly who PCS is and what information he left GME with --- after planning to do so over the course of a year, I'd say there may be a breach of contract issue with GME, at minimum.

I may not be Evok, but I'm afraid your true colors are emblazened all over this website.

Certainly something to be proud of.....and you've got kids you're teaching this crap to as well, right?

Real proud.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'd also suggest to any GM employees that visit this site find out exactly who PCS is and what information he left GME with --- after planning to do so over the course of a year, I'd say there may be a breach of contract issue with GME, at minimum.

Oddly, some of the highest people in GME, gave a glowing recommendation to BMW about me, which started a year ago, so it wasn't like they didn't know I was going, in fact they helped me get there ...

[CaddyXLR-V]

It's funny. Opel has better cars than just about any GMNA brand and everyone here is glad to see them go. Then again, GM loyalists have never really had a handle on what's good for the company.

Yeah, because GM has been doing the opposite of what us former loyalists said they should do for years. Look where they are now. I doubt the loyalists wanted GM to waste money yearly on Saab, billions creating Saturn, and buying Hummer, all at the expense of Pontiac and Oldsmobile, just to see all 3 of them killed or sold for much less than used creating/purchasing them, and taking Olds and Pontiac down with them. GM never really had a handle on what's good for the company. They still don't. I suspect they never will.

[Drew Dowdell]

Oddly, some of the highest people in GME, gave a glowing recommendation to BMW about me, which started a year ago, so it wasn't like they didn't know I was going, in fact they helped me get there ...

Whenever I have a tenant I don't like and don't want I give them great references. References that they'd hang up on the fridge.

[THTom]

Uh, what modern Opels have you actually driven or ridden in? The Astra is probably the best of what they've got. The Insignia isn't even out yet but I'd feel perfectly comfortable putting it up against the Malibu and Lacrosse depending on the trim.

The Insignia's been out since last year.

[THTom]

Yeah, because GM has been doing the opposite of what us former loyalists said they should do for years. Look where they are now. I doubt the loyalists wanted GM to waste money yearly on Saab, billions creating Saturn, and buying Hummer, all at the expense of Pontiac and Oldsmobile, just to see all 3 of them killed or sold for much less than used creating/purchasing them, and taking Olds and Pontiac down with them. GM never really had a handle on what's good for the company. They still don't. I suspect they never will.

What money have they wasted on Saab? Look at it's product line-up. At least GM got technology, engineering and engines in return.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Insignia's been out since last year.

I didn't get to see one when I was in Germany in November, but my point stands, I'll still put a Malibu and Lacrosse up against an Insignia.

[CaddyXLR-V]

What money have they wasted on Saab? Look at it's product line-up. At least GM got technology, engineering and engines in return.

Money used to purchase the brand, and Saab hasn't turned a profit from the time GM took a stake in them. That was money that should have gone to Pontiac and Olds.

[enzl]

Oddly, some of the highest people in GME, gave a glowing recommendation to BMW about me, which started a year ago, so it wasn't like they didn't know I was going, in fact they helped me get there ...

In that case, let's find your co-conspirators as well.

Just because a bunch of other j-asses in a clearly dysfunctional organization gave you a green light doesn't make it legal, ethical or right...

That's the problem with having a faulty moral compass, you tend to listen to anyone that rationalizes your errant behaviors...

It's telling of what craziness passes for average behavior at GME that you'd have the unmitigated nerve to admit to all of this to strangers. I no longer wonder why GME has been a such a disaster all of these years.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Whenever I have a tenant I don't like and don't want I give them great references. References that they'd hang up on the fridge.

The trouble is, I'm not one of your tenants ... Who knows, I may even be back at Opel once it's free of GM and if they merge with BMW or Opel's Holden and Daewoo sisters ...

There are things behind the scene you don't see as of yet, but you may by June 1st ...

[Oracle of Delphi]

In that case, let's find your co-conspirators as well.

Just because a bunch of other j-asses in a clearly dysfunctional organization gave you a green light doesn't make it legal, ethical or right...

That's the problem with having a faulty moral compass, you tend to listen to anyone that rationalizes your errant behaviors...

It's telling of what craziness passes for average behavior at GME that you'd have the unmitigated nerve to admit to all of this to strangers. I no longer wonder why GME has been a such a disaster all of these years.

[THTom]

Money used to purchase the brand, and Saab hasn't turned a profit from the time GM took a stake in them. That was money that should have gone to Pontiac and Olds.

Again, think of it as GM paying for technology, engineering and engines. A bunch of Saab stuff has been spread out all over GM's other brands. Look at Saab's product line-up. How did GM expect Saab to make any profit when GM didn't even move update Saab's product, nor took advantage of it's global reach? Plus, the Saab losses have turned out to peanuts compared to what GM's other operations, including it's core operations, have lost. This is made worse with the fact that it's going to cost GM more to get rid of Saab than every loss that Saab has accumulated under GM.

[THTom]

I didn't get to see one when I was in Germany in November, but my point stands, I'll still put a Malibu and Lacrosse up against an Insignia.

You have a point. The problem is, outside of North America, a lot of people probably wouldn't, mainly due to branding and preferences.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Again, think of it as GM paying for technology, engineering and engines. A bunch of Saab stuff has been spread out all over GM's other brands. Look at Saab's product line-up. How did GM expect Saab to make any profit when GM didn't even move update Saab's product, nor took advantage of it's global reach? Plus, the Saab losses have turned out to peanuts compared to what GM's other operations, including it's core operations, have lost. This is made worse with the fact that it's going to cost GM more to get rid of Saab than every loss that Saab has accumulated under GM.

But when GM couldn't afford to give it's core brands (at the time) products, why were they buying other brands like Saab? Couldn't a partnership have worked instead, or a minority stake like with Isuzu?

[Dragon]

if Fiat buys into Chrysler and Opel and/or Saturn, could we a Chrysler Sky/Lightening?