LaNeve: We still haven't made up the business

[avant1963]

Good talk with LaNeve.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../C01-386225.htm

[Drew Dowdell]

Of course they didn't. Olds had a unique position within GM. They weren't "Grandpa" like Buick. They weren't "Boy-racer" like Pontiac. They weren't "lower-class" like Chevy and they weren't "too expensive" like Cadillac. They were tastefull and understated. There was, and still is, nothing to directly replace Olds in the lineup. Put it this way, if Ford killed off Mazda, would the former Mazda customers automatially start buying "sport Mercurys"? I don't think so.

[evok]

Of course they didn't. Olds had a unique position within GM. They weren't "Grandpa" like Buick. They weren't "Boy-racer" like Pontiac. They weren't "lower-class" like Chevy and they weren't "too expensive" like Cadillac. They were tastefull and understated. There was, and still is, nothing to directly replace Olds in the lineup.

Put it this way, if Ford killed off Mazda, would the former Mazda customers automatially start buying "sport Mercurys"? I don't think so.

[post="44880"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Give me a break. You need to read into what LaNeve is saying. This is damage control and reassuring dealers that other brands will not be cut. Nothing more and nothing less. GM lost little to nothing by getting rid of Olds because of other moves they took to balance their porfolio. If you want more badge engineered product keep believe what you do.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I'll admit they've done at least an okay job of it too, Evok. The G6, even though its inferior (IMO) to what it could and should've been and is lacking in many areas, has done a pretty decent job of replacing the former Grand Am and Alero. However, I think LaCrosse should've been more effective in replacing not just Century and Regal, but the Olds Intrigue as well.

[evok]

I'll admit they've done at least an okay job of it too, Evok. The G6, even though its inferior (IMO) to what it could and should've been and is lacking in many areas, has done a pretty decent job of replacing the former Grand Am and Alero. However, I think LaCrosse should've been more effective in replacing not just Century and Regal, but the Olds Intrigue as well.

[post="44885"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I was refering more towards the Avalanche, Rendevous, Vue, Equinox, Escalade EXT/ESV, Rainier, Relay, Torrent etc., that has been added to the GM portfolio that in theory made up for the 200k that were lost when Oldsmobile ceased sales. The problems GM faces now on the product side are not because of the lack of Oldmobile. Gas prices significantly hurt truck/SUV sales across the market and their passenger cars have not hit the market strong.

[caddycruiser]

Give me a break.  You need to read into what LaNeve is saying.  This is damage control and reassuring dealers that other brands will not be cut.  Nothing more and nothing less.  GM lost little to nothing by getting rid of Olds because of other moves they took to balance their porfolio.  If you want more badge engineered product keep believe what you do.

[post="44881"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sorry, but just for a reality check, the last Oldsmobile models were about the ONLY GM products that may have shared underpinnings with other cars, but were VERY different otherwise. It seemed to be the only brand there for a while that had anything worthwhile, whether it be the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues), the Intrigue which had some of the best suspension and steering tuning ever out of GM, not to mention the unique 3.5L OHC engine, or even the Aurora, which was so completely unique from the other G-body relatives, it really might have went on to be an absolutely outstanding piece, had it been refreshed again before death.

I remember reading an article where it said, near the end, the Buick guys at GM were P.O.'ed that the Olds guys had a car as nice as the Aurora with its real wood trim and 4.0L OHC V8, when all they had was the plasticky rental-grade LeSabre and its antique 3.8L--and really helped seal the deal on the death of Olds. Sounds like a VERY likely scenario to me.

Even though they're dead and gone now, it's always interesting to look back and imagine what level the only trully "unique" brand in GM would be on today, if still around. B)

[cmattson]

Personally, I don't think that killing a brand is the answer. Does it kill overlap? Does it decrease marketing costs? Does it decrease design costs? Absolutely - but so does combining B-P-G and killing model overlap. Combining/refining B-P-G would accomplish all of that without the sigma of killing yet another historied brand. I don't think it's fair to judge GM on their B-P-G strategy as it's execution is in it's infancy.

[Robert Hall]

Sorry, but just for a reality check, the last Oldsmobile models were about the ONLY GM products that may have shared underpinnings with other cars, but were VERY different otherwise.  It seemed to be the only brand there for a while that had anything worthwhile, whether it be the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues), the Intrigue which had some of the best suspension and steering tuning ever out of GM, not to mention the unique 3.5L OHC engine, or even the Aurora, which was so completely unique from the other G-body relatives, it really might have went on to be an absolutely outstanding piece, had it been refreshed again before death.

I remember reading an article where it said, near the end, the Buick guys at GM were P.O.'ed that the Olds guys had a car as nice as the Aurora with its real wood trim and 4.0L OHC V8, when all they had was the plasticky rental-grade LeSabre and its antique 3.8L--and really helped seal the deal on the death of Olds.  Sounds like a VERY likely scenario to me.

Even though they're dead and gone now, it's always interesting to look back and imagine what level the only trully "unique" brand in GM would be on today, if still around. B)

Agreed... the Alero, Intrigue, and Aurora were a definite cut above the usual blandtastic GM sedan fare of the late '90s-early '00s... nicely styled, good engines, suspension, decent interiors... I liked the direction Olds was taking then--breaking away from their fogey image of the Ciera/Cutlass/88/98s of the '90s into something very competent and modern. Too bad GM couldn't make it work. Edited November 18, 2005 by moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Well lets see at it's death Oldsmobile was widely regarded as having:

The best of G-bodies in the Aurora, also thought to be GM's finest at the time.
The best of the W-bodies, the LaCross only comes close in it's highest levels of trim.
The most luxurious of the vans and GMT-360s. Just try telling me that the 9-7x and Rainier combined are outselling Bravada. Oh and splitting the vans from three models to four models.... splended idea.
The best of the N-bodies, though admitedly, the Grand Am didn't set the bar too high. Edited November 18, 2005 by Oldsmoboi

[caddycruiser]

Agreed... the Alero, Intrigue, and Aurora were a definite cut above the usual blandtastic GM sedan fare of the late '90s-early '00s...  nicely styled, good engines, suspension, decent interiors... I liked the direction Olds was taking then--breaking away from their fogey image of the Ciera/Cutlass/88/98s of the '90s into something very competent and modern.  Too bad GM couldn't make it work.

[post="44940"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Exactly. They just always struck me as something "different", but in a much better way than the rest.

The designs were VERY good, and MUCH better than some of the other crap plopping out of the other divisions at the same time (i.e., Aurora vs. LeSabre, Intrigue vs. Impala, Alero vs. Grand Am). Honestly, a lot of the materials still were nothing to rave about, such as the overly hard dash with its jagged airbag cutout on the Intrigue, but they had the "look" and function spot on. Now, if they had just gotten a refresh and, say, some newer, nicer materials, and pumped up fit & finish standards, I think most would have been over the top.

Hell, the engines alone, in the Intrigue and Aurora showed something was REALLY different and better in this brand, compared to all the rest. It never should have been killed off, but as has been said, that's old news. B) Edited November 18, 2005 by caddycruiser

[evok]

Well lets see at it's death Oldsmobile was widely regarded as having:

The best of G-bodies in the Aurora, also thought to be GM's finest at the time.
The best of the W-bodies, the LaCross only comes close in it's highest levels of trim.
The most luxurious of the vans and GMT-360s. Just try telling me that the 9-7x and Rainier combined are outselling Bravada. Oh and splitting the vans from three models to four models.... splended idea.
The best of the N-bodies, though admitedly, the Grand Am didn't set the bar too high.

[post="44943"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM still could not give them away. And yes, soon as the Rainier was given to Buick it outsold the 360 Bravada, excluding the 9-7.

[Drew Dowdell]

And when was the last time you saw an Olds ad before their death. Maybe once or twice for the Intrigue, but nothing else.

GM didn't even try. They simple expected to know to go to the Olds dealer. You know I've never ever seen an advertisement for the second gen Aurora? I see the same freaking Passat commercial 5 times in an hour TV program.

Advertising the Intrigue with the X-files? They're going for the 28-34 male geek segment and wondering why they can't sell cars.

No, there was nothing wrong with Oldsmobile that wasn't also wrong with the rest of GM. They had the best of each platform. Olds was simply neglected by the GM marketing machine.

[evok]

And when was the last time you saw an Olds ad before their death. Maybe once or twice for the Intrigue, but nothing else.

GM didn't even try. They simple expected to know to go to the Olds dealer. You know I've never ever seen an advertisement for the second gen Aurora? I see the same freaking Passat commercial 5 times in an hour TV program.

Advertising the Intrigue with the X-files? They're going for the 28-34 male geek segment and wondering why they can't sell cars.

No, there was nothing wrong with Oldsmobile that wasn't also wrong with the rest of GM. They had the best of each platform. Olds was simply neglected by the GM marketing machine.

[post="44949"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What's your point? You can't change history. Ten years and 2 billion in investment, GM for many reasons could not turn the division around. Based upon their cost structure, and Olds being the least viable brand of the bunch, the decision was to axe it. GM is more than anyone brand.

And back in 2002 time frame, ad spending per vehicle for Olds was on par with the rest of the divisions. About 500 bucks per car.

[Sal Collaziano]

It was a good brand and definitely shouldn't have been killed off. I hear people mention how nobody wanted to buy a brand of automobile with "Old" in the name. Well, worst-case-scenario, they could have changed their name. Datsun did it and become Nissan. Why couldn't Oldsmobile? They didn't have to kill the brand...

[torobud]

Serves you right Bastards!!! :angry: - sorry I am done... :rolleyes:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree 100% with caddycruiser and Oldsmoboi.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I always liked Olds, not as much as Pontiac, but more than Buick or Chevy. It's sad to see the brand killed. And as stated before, Olds did have some of the best GM cars made in the 90s. But yet they still didn't sell. If so many people care so much about the brand, why wouldn't they buy the cars then? Some of the best GM cars for the time, yet still couldn't sell them=brand getting axed. Pontiacs still sold, while many of their cars were much less than perfect. Thats why Pontiac is still around. Maybe Olds should have been killed sooner, with Pontiac getting better product, through the 90s. Then instead of one dead, and one declining, we could have 1 dead, and one going strong.

[VenSeattle]

I can agree with Evok about damage control. Look at what happened when Lutz made the comment last year (or early this year) about "damaged goods." It sent the dealers, press, customers, etc on fire with speculation and questions. GM is not going to repeat that mistake again.

The best way to look at this is GM realizes "killing a Brand" doesn't solve problems. What GM did for Oldsmobile in the 1990's, GM really needed to do for all of its divisions simultaneously. I see GM closer to accomplishing that now than ever before in recent history.

There are several reasons why Oldsmobile was phased out. But regardless of why, the negative results from the "phase out" may have saved the rest of GM's brands from retirement. At least for now.

Here are two very good summaries by CNN that explain GM's situation with Oldsmobile.

http://money.cnn.com/2000/12/12/companies/...obile_overview/

http://money.cnn.com/2000/12/12/companies/oldsmobile/

(edited to correct the Lutz statement)

[razoredge]

Well I save my bias on Olds, and I wont rehash what or why but, when I heard they were killing Oldsmobile I knew they would not regain the sales loss, I knew they were throwing out the yellow flag, I knew potential GM customers would be wary. I did not know how much trouble GM was actually in, I thought they were just being jerks, which they were, cause it didnt work out. Now today we have all these additional much larger problems and GM has come to a full stop, comparitively. So if they could not give Oldsmobiles away in 00 01 02 & 03 it could also be said today that they can not give any GM's away. Just check the red flag sales :AH-HA_wink: GM aint Rocky, they aint gonna get up from all the pounding and kick butt Perception is everything, they lost face with too many bad decisions, Americas back is turned and they are cheering for the battle in the other ring. So hows your Korean ? tic toc tic toc

[jry]

never really "owned" a buick. had two as company cars. a loaded X car and an 80 regal. owned some olds, chevys, gmc's, still have a pontiac and a caddy. olds was a good brand. lots of innovations. drove an aurora V-8 when i was looking for a sedan. hate to say it but i wasn't that impressed. good car but i didn't like the noise level or the way it took the bumps on these crappy michigan roads. give that car buick's quiet tuning and rework the ride and you get, ah, the lucerne, as a matter of fact.

[Carguy]

Here comes (Saturnmobile)!--KILL a good near luxury mid priced brand (OLDS)!--Loose those sails to competiters (RICE BURNERS like ACURA)!--Reposition a lower cost brand with NO real HISTORY known for their PLASTIC BODY PANNELS and NOISY/RUFF ENGINES intended to take on the RICE BURNERS (SATURN) to TRY to replace that OLD-KNOWN BRAND!---------((GENIUS?))---------((STUPID?))----------I vote the LATTER!!

[PontiacTechNJ]

the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues), [QUOTE]

Still trying to figure why an Alero is all that different from a Grand Am - other then the Grand Am sold more , that is the only difference

[Flybrian]

[quote name='PontiacTechNJ' date='Nov 19 2005, 12:08 PM']
the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues), [QUOTE]

Still trying to figure why an Alero is all that different from a Grand Am - other then the Grand Am sold more , that is the only difference

[post="45336"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

[/quote]

Sleeker styling, better-looking interior. Nice colors. That's about it, but it does make a difference. An Alero is more a car you can take to a night out or to work and not have people laugh at you.

[ocnblu]

Yes, Oldsmobile was a great brand lost due to mismanagement, but from what I've seen of the Aura, Sky, Outlook, and next Ion, I am hopeful some of the Olds DNA survives and is passed on into GM's grand remake of Saturn. The Aura and next Ion interiors could have been in Oldsmobiles, imo. I know this is not a popular opinion with Olds fans, and I cannot truly blame you, all I ask is that we wait and see what they come up with.

[Drew Dowdell]

I fully expect that Saturn will take Old's place.











They've had the transition on going for years.

[Cory Wolfe]

I remember reading an article where it said, near the end, the Buick guys at GM were P.O.'ed that the Olds guys had a car as nice as the Aurora with its real wood trim and 4.0L OHC V8, when all they had was the plasticky rental-grade LeSabre and its antique 3.8L--and really helped seal the deal on the death of Olds.  Sounds like a VERY likely scenario to me.

[post="44911"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just like Chevy and the Fiero.... <_<

the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues),

Still trying to figure why an Alero is all that different from a Grand Am - other then the Grand Am sold more , that is the only difference

Sleeker styling, better-looking interior. Nice colors. That's about it, but it does make a difference. An Alero is more a car you can take to a night out or to work and not have people laugh at you.

Still, they're so similar so most of the comments made about it are BS.

Same engines, same transmissions, same suspension, same platform, same features, same greenhouse (sedan only), same doors... the only real unique thing about it was front and rear styling (and greenhouse on coupe), interior styling, wheel styling, and not much else.

That and styling is only subjective. A matter of opinion. It can never be fact and some use this against the Grand Am. Personally, the Alero is more of a pure design, but it has on one of the ugliest rear-ends I've seen. The interior is just bland in my eyes. Better, yes... but so unoriginal.

As for getting laughed at in a Grand Am... well not where I live and if people did... I'd do something about it.

----------

Anyways, Olds used to be the only other GM brand that I liked. The rest had no special connection with me.

[daves87rs]

Well I save my bias on Olds, and I wont rehash what or why but, when I heard they were killing Oldsmobile I knew they would not regain the sales loss, I knew they were throwing out the yellow flag, I knew potential GM customers would be wary. I did not know how much trouble GM was actually in, I thought they were just being jerks, which they were, cause it didnt work out.

Now today we have all these additional much larger problems and GM has come to a full stop, comparitively. So if they could not give Oldsmobiles away in 00 01 02 & 03 it could also be said today that they can not give any GM's away. Just check the red flag sales  :AH-HA_wink:

GM aint Rocky, they aint gonna get up from all the pounding and kick butt

Perception is everything, they lost face with too many bad decisions, Americas back is turned and they are cheering for the battle in the other ring.

So hows your Korean ?

tic toc tic toc

[post="45088"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I can agree with both evok and Olsmoboi...

Olds had some good cars...but simply put, it wasn't enough.


I think GM knew that they were going to lose sales...they are just looking to
get out of some markets...there was no point to have Buickm Caddy, and Olds
all doing about the same thing...

Its just like GM will soon be out of the Mini-van market soon. There just isn't
a reason to waste money on a dying market...why else would the rehashed
new vans lacked updates?

Before the end of 2007...Doraville will be closed, and those 3 sister vans will be
gone.

It is simply knowing where to cut your losses...

[daves87rs]

I fully expect that Saturn will take Old's place.











They've had the transition on going for years.

[post="45773"][/post]

Agreed. I have a feeling Saturn will be stronger than people think...

[VenSeattle]

Its just like GM will soon be out of the Mini-van market soon. There just isn't
a reason to waste money on a dying market...why else would the rehashed
new vans lacked updates?

Before the end of 2007...Doraville will be closed, and those 3 sister vans will be
gone.

It is simply knowing where to cut your losses...

[post="45822"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM is not getting out of the minivan market. The reason the quadruplets did not receive a significant update is because the new minivans will be on Lambda. According to the insiders here, only Chevrolet and Saturn are getting the new minivans. This could have changed again, but this was the situation last time I checked.

[razoredge]

what are those horrible abomanations at the bottom of that photo show ? Dave, I mean really, Olds Buick and Caddy were not doing the same thing. Olds was out there on its own, doing its own thing, you know, what saturin is now supposedly going to do now, some 10 years after the fact after loosing how many billions of dollars. Ya know, no matter how wrong the last few generations have determined the Oldsmobile name to be, saturn is the stupidest name for an automobile I have ever heard, possibly excluding Yugo. I mean why not Moon, Mars, Pluto or best of all Uranus ?

[evok]

[quote name='blackviper8891' date='Nov 20 2005, 10:03 PM']
Just like Chevy and the Fiero.... <_<
Still trying to figure why an Alero is all that different from a Grand Am - other then the Grand Am sold more , that is the only difference[/quote]
Sleeker styling, better-looking interior. Nice colors. That's about it, but it does make a difference. An Alero is more a car you can take to a night out or to work and not have people laugh at you.[/quote]
Still, they're so similar so most of the comments made about it are BS.

Same engines, same transmissions, same suspension, same platform, same features, same greenhouse (sedan only), same doors... the only real unique thing about it was front and rear styling (and greenhouse on coupe), interior styling, wheel styling, and not much else.

That and styling is only subjective. A matter of opinion. It can never be fact and some use this against the Grand Am. Personally, the Alero is more of a pure design, but it has on one of the ugliest rear-ends I've seen. The interior is just bland in my eyes. Better, yes... but so unoriginal.

As for getting laughed at in a Grand Am... well not where I live and if people did... I'd do something about it.

----------

Anyways, Olds used to be the only other GM brand that I liked. The rest had no special connection with me.

[/quote]

BV your nadir I fear has yet to come.

This board seeks new lows all the time. I used to really like sharing info and discussing auto around here but not any more. It has just become more fun to incite the idiocy among the mentally challenged. And even that has gotten really old.

It is just like Howard Stern throwing a Frisbee to blind man in his movie. It is funny at first but... Edited November 21, 2005 by evok

[Flybrian]

BV your nadir I fear has yet to come.

This board seeks new lows all the time.  I used to really like sharing info and discussing auto around here but not any more.  It has just become more fun to incite the idiocy among the mentally challenged.  And even that has gotten really old.

It is just like Howard Stern throwing a Frisbee  to blind man in his movie.  It is funny at first but...

[post="45875"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What exactly did BV say that inspires you to respond like that?

[razoredge]

  It has just become more fun to incite the idiocy among the mentally challenged.  And even that has gotten really old.

It is just like Howard Stern throwing a Frisbee  to blind man in his movie.  It is funny at first but...

[post="45875"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yea, your all about that alright, problem is you offer so little anyhow, perhaps you found your best asset ?

I read BV's post 3 times and certainly dont get your reaction to it, but theres that challange for ya :unsure: Edited November 21, 2005 by razoredge

[Croc]

Somebody woke up with a bad case of diaper rash :lol:

[Cory Wolfe]

BV your nadir I fear has yet to come.

This board seeks new lows all the time. I used to really like sharing info and discussing auto around here but not any more. It has just become more fun to incite the idiocy among the mentally challenged. And even that has gotten really old.

It is just like Howard Stern throwing a Frisbee to blind man in his movie. It is funny at first but...

If I knew what the hell you were talking about, I'd respond. :huh:

Whatever it is... it doesn't sound as if you approve of my post. Did I say something wrong? Did I ever do anything to you in the first place? Did I even deserve whatever the hell you said? I have no idea... :blink:

Drugs are bad for you. I'd stay off of them if I were you.

[Sixty8panther]

They'll never make up the business they lost wiht olds... same as they'll never make up for lost B-body sales... a high percentage of those customers are now driving Mercury Gran Marquis, Ford C.V.s & Chrysler cars. If another division is ever cut from GM and it's not Saturn then I'm willing to bet GM will be a gonner in my lifetime. Dead as a F***ing doornail. How could such a legacy stoop so low as to destroy themselves from the inside out? :(

[Sixty8panther]

Sleeker styling, better-looking interior. Nice colors. That's about it, but it does make a difference. An Alero is more a car you can take to a night out or to work and not have people laugh at you.

[post="45415"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So what Grand Ams are so pathetic that peole laugh at them? WTF si that supposed to mean? The Grand Am was an awsome car, esp. the last gen. I have owned a couple and sold a brand new 2002 GT1 to my parents when the rebates were really awsome. They got a really sleek looking Grand Am GT wiht 16" "chrome" rims and a big torquey V6 for less than a typical 4-cylinder Accord. The media never gave the Grand Am a chance and the "Ribs" were always ridiculed by the rags but I never thought a Bonneville fan would dump on ther Grand Am. <_<

I certainly like the Alero too but to say one is different than the other is like saying the Sunbird GT is so much better than the Cavalier Z24. It's laughable.

[Flybrian]

So what Grand Ams are so pathetic that peole laugh at them? WTF si that supposed to mean? The Grand Am was an awsome car, esp. the last gen. I have owned a couple and sold a brand new 2002 GT1 to my parents when the rebates were really awsome. They got a really sleek looking Grand Am GT wiht 16" "chrome" rims and a big torquey V6 for less than a typical 4-cylinder Accord. The media never gave the Grand Am a chance and the "Ribs" were always ridiculed by the rags but I never thought a Bonneville fan would dump on ther Grand Am.  <_<

I certainly like the Alero too but to say one is different than the other is like saying the Sunbird GT is so much better than the Cavalier Z24. It's laughable.

[post="46266"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My response was based on the general impression of the cars formulated by the public and the auto press at large. I realize the cars are 90% exactly alike otherwise...so...yeah...chill...

[Chicagoland]

So, the Alero was "way better" then the GA, buily by the same workers in the same plant, with 90% same parts? Same as the trucks with Olds badges, what made them "way better"? Only the Intrique and Aruroa were 'unique', but then clashed with other GM brands. It was all psychological that these cars were as revered as the glory days Cutlasses and 88/98 cars. But this is a dead horse... Edited November 22, 2005 by Chicagoland

[Cremazie]

It was a good brand and definitely shouldn't have been killed off. I hear people mention how nobody wanted to buy a brand of automobile with "Old" in the name. Well, worst-case-scenario, they could have changed their name. Datsun did it and become Nissan. Why couldn't Oldsmobile? They didn't have to kill the brand...

[post="44974"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Newsmobile, for a newer name... still sounds boring, in a CNN kind of way.
I have one..>> Saturn.... oops.. isn't that the plan?

[Chicagoland]

What should have been said was "We haven't made up for the lost customers, who got fed up with trips to the service dept, low resale value, dated designs, etc etc"

[Sixty8panther]

What should have been said was "We haven't made up for the lost customers, who got fed up with trips to the service dept, low resale value, dated designs, etc etc"

[post="47311"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What is up with all these GM-haters on this board! :blink:

[prinzSD]

What is up with all these GM-haters on this board!  :blink:

[post="47486"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I noticed the same thing. a lot of new names and a lot of GM bashers.All of a sudden they are multiplying. The other GM bashers must be sending them here! I just do not understand what motivates someone who hates GM to come here anyway, maybe it is just to start crap. It is not like I go the import forums and waste my energy there so I just do not get it. Is it they feel superior to GM entusiasts and have to let us know constantly? :unsure:

[turbo200]

BV your nadir I fear has yet to come.

This board seeks new lows all the time.  I used to really like sharing info and discussing auto around here but not any more.  It has just become more fun to incite the idiocy among the mentally challenged.  And even that has gotten really old.

It is just like Howard Stern throwing a Frisbee  to blind man in his movie.  It is funny at first but...

[post="45875"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hmmm.... :huh:

I think... I think evok was agreeing with you BV. I don't beleive he was speaking against you, but against those that were saying they would be laughed at in a Grand AM, and not in an Alero, which is just kind of ridiculous to say, imo. They're almost the same car, design-wise, and the Grand Am is the more masculine of the two, by FAR...

I think...you were coming from a logical place. I think the low place he was referring to was maybe getting sick and tired of the "out there" opinions......

maybe :AH-HA_wink: :)

[Flybrian]

Hmmm.... :huh:

I think... I think evok was agreeing with you BV. I don't beleive he was speaking against you, but against those that were saying they would be laughed at in a Grand AM, and not in an Alero, which is just kind of ridiculous to say, imo. They're almost the same car, design-wise, and the Grand Am is the more masculine of the two, by FAR...

I think...you were coming from a logical place. I think the low place he was referring to was maybe getting sick and tired of the "out there" opinions......

maybe :AH-HA_wink:  :)

[post="49301"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Since I'm the one who said it, I'll qualify it.

It was meant as a tongue-in-cheek comment since BV loves the GA so much. Sort of like how when he mentions a Fiero, photos of explosions and mushroom clouds are posted. To borrow Pontiac stylists' motto, its good-intentioned ribbing.

I will also add that I am serious about an Alero looking classier than a Grand Am. That's a given.

[Chicagoland]

Not GM haters, but realists. GM can't live in the pst and think that they can put cladding on a car and say "it's different, pay more". Olds was a lost cause, and all the cryers had not bought a new one since 1977. Get over it, and move on. GM shoulda merged Olds with Saturn, avoided lawsuits and payouts. Just said 'here's new product, sell Saturns or get lost.'

[97regalGS]

Not GM haters, but realists. GM can't live in the pst and think that they can put cladding on a car and say "it's different, pay more".

Olds was a lost cause, and all the cryers had not bought a new one since 1977. Get over it, and move on.

GM shoulda merged Olds with Saturn, avoided lawsuits and payouts. Just said 'here's new product, sell Saturns or get lost.'

[post="49475"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

completey different franchise licences I believe prevented any sort of merge with saturn. it also limits GM's ability to shut down Saturn, ala Olds. Edited November 28, 2005 by 97regalGS

[97regalGS]

If I knew what the hell you were talking about, I'd respond. :huh:

Whatever it is... it doesn't sound as if you approve of my post. Did I say something wrong? Did I ever do anything to you in the first place? Did I even deserve whatever the hell you said? I have no idea... :blink:

Drugs are bad for you. I'd stay off of them if I were you.

[post="46227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BV, i believe his comments were direct at C&G. i think what he was saying is " if you think you are pissed off now BV, then just wait a little longer." Cheers and Gears continues to set new lows. it is becoming the kindergarden playground of the web, with people acting like a bunch of children whining, complaining and bickering. total emotion and limited thought. comments based on whimsy and gut reaction and not on objective perspective. and generally, it does get quite tiresome. i've noticed it myself for a while now.

[prototype66]

Sorry, but just for a reality check, the last Oldsmobile models were about the ONLY GM products that may have shared underpinnings with other cars, but were VERY different otherwise.  It seemed to be the only brand there for a while that had anything worthwhile, whether it be the Alero that was a MUCH better car than the craptacular Grand Am (even though the Olds still had its own issues), the Intrigue which had some of the best suspension and steering tuning ever out of GM, not to mention the unique 3.5L OHC engine, or even the Aurora, which was so completely unique from the other G-body relatives, it really might have went on to be an absolutely outstanding piece, had it been refreshed again before death.

I remember reading an article where it said, near the end, the Buick guys at GM were P.O.'ed that the Olds guys had a car as nice as the Aurora with its real wood trim and 4.0L OHC V8, when all they had was the plasticky rental-grade LeSabre and its antique 3.8L--and really helped seal the deal on the death of Olds.  Sounds like a VERY likely scenario to me.

Even though they're dead and gone now, it's always interesting to look back and imagine what level the only trully "unique" brand in GM would be on today, if still around. B)


B)

[post="44911"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ill second that!!!!!! B) Edited November 28, 2005 by prototype66

[prototype66]

What should have been said was "We haven't made up for the lost customers, who got fed up with trips to the service dept, low resale value, dated designs, etc etc"

[post="47311"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Um, We can't keep Aloros on the lot yet lots of ga's are sticking around. Both great cars, both different yet one sells faster. Hello?