Pontiac's fate to be decided in 2010

[hyperv6]

Anyone get the crazy idea of maybe coming up with a Pontiac concept that would appeal to a wide group of car buyers and not the dwindeling group of Pontiac diehards.

You aim for a bigger target you just might hit it.

Living in the past is over as the general public is not wanting to relive the 70's with a Chicken on the hood.

Pontiac needs an original concept not a rehashed idea. Something that would generate interest like the Genesis has for Hyundia.

an original design that looks so good no one could dis it as well as add some new Ideas.

IF John Delorean was around the last thing he would do is bring back an old idea. He always was working ahead and going where GM had never gone before. OHC engines, Big engines, Small engines in other words here though outside the box and ahead of his time.

Even John D knew Pontiac's did not all have to be big V8 engines. He was just 10 years too early.

I am a Pontiac fan but I want the next great Pontiac not some old rehashed recycled Idea.

I hope GM does that on the next Camaro too. I like the present car but it needs to move on to the next level. That is what gave us cars like the 69 GP and other things. The need to do what they and other are not doing. With Pontiac they can afford to take the risk as they have noting to lose.

GM needs to move ahead in many areas.

Edited April 16, 2009 by hyperv6

[gm4life]

I would love a pure RWD brand, but with some Scion/Mazda-ish things as well would be nice. I would like some of both, as for the Trans Am just bring it back, as a rebadged Camaro true to history.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I would NOT be opposed to once again using the Chevy & Corvette way of life. (Corvette was it's own brand at one time, but it has never been separated from Chevrolet)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac needs an original concept not a rehashed idea. Something that would generate interest like the Genesis has for Hyundia.

Okay man... I have to put a stop to this. (Not that I disagree with you on Pontiac)

You seem to have this morbid fascination with the Genesis.. What is so original about a mid-size RWD coupe with a corporate V6?

[Camino LS6]

The way things are going, it might be separated from the present and the future before long.

[mustang84]

Pontiac still resonates with my generation. My best friend from high school and his wife both recently purchased new Pontiacs (2008 Grand Prix GT and a 2009 G6). My roomate from college bought a G6 a year ago.

While deep down I want to give GM the benefit of the doubt that they are finally "getting it," I know that is just setting myself up for disappointment. GM has let me down enough that I practically expect failure from them.

GM, prove me wrong.

[gm4life]

Pontiac still resonates with my generation. My best friend from high school and his wife both recently purchased new Pontiacs (2008 Grand Prix GT and a 2009 G6). My roomate from college bought a G6 a year ago.

While deep down I want to give GM the benefit of the doubt that they are finally "getting it," I know that is just setting myself up for disappointment. GM has let me down enough that I practically expect failure from them.

GM, prove me wrong.

Very true, I hope they do prove you wrong.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Corvette can stay at Chevy, because it is basically a value priced sports car. My idea for Pontiac's halo would start about the same price as the Corvette, but mid engine, with less power for the base model such as a 330hp 3.6L, then a 450hp TT 3.6L for about $15,000 more. It won't be as budget priced as the Corvette, but it will be more sophisticated. So for people who wont consider a pushrod V8, they might consider a twin turbo race ready DOHC V6.

Before anyone says it, I realize this would never happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't.

[cire]

Corvette can stay at Chevy, because it is basically a value priced sports car. My idea for Pontiac's halo would start about the same price as the Corvette, but mid engine, with less power for the base model such as a 330hp 3.6L, then a 450hp TT 3.6L for about $15,000 more. It won't be as budget priced as the Corvette, but it will be more sophisticated. So for people who wont consider a pushrod V8, they might consider a twin turbo race ready DOHC V6.

Before anyone says it, I realize this would never happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't.

I guess I was looking at it from the standpoint that GM tried to go above the Corvette before and failed miserably (the Cadillac XLR). That was why I thought they should spin it off, merge it with Cadillac, and develop something a little smaller, more affordable, and more fuel efficient (that maybe even managed to balance sportiness with a degree of practicality) than the Corvette off the Y-body platform for the corporation's affordable performance division (Pontiac). Maybe I'm focusing too much on the fact that the XLR failed instead of the exact reasons why it failed. I guess the big question on my mind is: If people didn't accept a "fancier" and more expensive Corvette as a Cadillac, would GM be setting themselves up for a second round of failure by developing one for Pontiac? I think Pontiac is perceived by the general public as a slightly sporty, but still affordable alternative to Chevrolet. I'm just not sure a costlier Corvette variant would fly at Pontiac any better than it did at Cadillac (although it does sound as if your Pontiac proposal wouldn't be quite as expensive as the XLR).

I also don't view the Corvette as a budget priced sports car with a near $50,000 base MSRP, but then I might be a little out of touch with the pricing realities of this particular segment. It seems to me that the Corvette should be the corporation's flagship sports car while a smaller, cheaper, and more fuel efficient platform mate would exist at Pontiac. I was looking at this car's pricing to start in the low 30's and maybe extend into the low 40's.

Your idea is interesting, though. Maybe I am guilty of looking at the proposal from too much of a bean counter's perspective instead of a car enthusiast's viewpoint (I know, shame on me). It could possibly work if people can accept the idea of a Pontiac that starts out near $50,000 (which might be a little questionable).

[black02]

Pontiac still resonates with my generation. My best friend from high school and his wife both recently purchased new Pontiacs (2008 Grand Prix GT and a 2009 G6). My roomate from college bought a G6 a year ago.

Michigan?

[SAmadei]

Anyone get the crazy idea of maybe coming up with a Pontiac concept that would appeal to a wide group of car buyers and not the dwindeling group of Pontiac diehards.

Dwindling? There are a LOT of people my age who remember fondly those millions of late '70s Firebirds, who are just reaching the point where they are making the coin to afford a toy like that.

Make it look killer enough (like the Stingray in FOG's sig), and the big boys with the $$$ will fawn over it... because when testosterone sees something it wants, the sensible brain can't reassert control.

The new Camaro can be retro '60s, and the Firebird could be retro '70s.

You aim for a bigger target you just might hit it.

Sure. So why can't Pontiac do the WRX/Mini thing _AND_ the nostalgia thing? Again, the Firebird is 95% developed... the WRX/Mini fighter isn't even on a sheet of paper yet.

Pontiac needs an original concept not a rehashed idea. Something that would generate interest like the Genesis has for Hyundia.

an original design that looks so good no one could dis it as well as add some new Ideas.

How is the Genesis a new idea? An affordable Mercedes wannabe for the masses? A Mustang wannabe that people can afford? This has been done over and over... since before cars... I'm sure chariot makers 2000 years ago did it... just this time Hyundai is doing it. The Genesis is impressive... but is hardly groundbreaking considering the technology and parts sourcing in 2009.

The sedan is not that original, and the original parts of the coupe are very polarizing... just like the Tiburon was.

IF John Delorean was around the last thing he would do is bring back an old idea. He always was working ahead and going where GM had never gone before. OHC engines, Big engines, Small engines in other words here though outside the box and ahead of his time.

Even John D knew Pontiac's did not all have to be big V8 engines. He was just 10 years too early.

I am a Pontiac fan but I want the next great Pontiac not some old rehashed recycled Idea.

I hope GM does that on the next Camaro too. I like the present car but it needs to move on to the next level. That is what gave us cars like the 69 GP and other things. The need to do what they and other are not doing. With Pontiac they can afford to take the risk as they have noting to lose.

GM needs to move ahead in many areas.

Again, great, I'm all for that. Pontiac's next small car should outdo the WRX or the Mini. Small engine in a spry package. They would still be recycling the idea from Subaru or Mini.

But for a relatively big car (Zeta based), the formula is big engine and bigger engine. Are you going to put a quad turbo 4 cylinder in the G8? That's not what people buying cars bigger than the Camaro/G8 want.

Obama, Gore, California and the left are talking about everyone driving small cars. What I want to know, are these folks going to force everyone to diet? I think its absurd that the fattest people in the world would try to wedge themselves into small cars. I bet the WRX and Mini accelerate and handle great with 1400lbs of people squeezed into it.

The automotive world, IMHO, is at a styling dead end. We had 85 years of unaerodynamic cars... then we had 20 years of aerodynamic wedges, aproaching the ultimate teardrop shape. Now the fad is to make things truck-like and blocky again... because we've discovered the limit to superlow, aerodynamic cars. Retro is one place to go, but where else can we go? Cars that turn into airplanes? Cars look like they are driving backwards? It might sound absurd, but look at the pimpin' donk style or the fin madness of the '50s, and you'll see that absurd only starts to describe where automotive styling could go.

With the exception of the promises of future perfect drivetrains, everything old is new again, and GM needs to beat the world using old fashioned ideas.

Everyone talks about how GM has to evolve beyond. I've thought alot about cars for years... and I'm drawing a blank. Can _anyone_ suggest a _truly_ new idea that hasn't been done or suggested to be coming in the immediate future?

If not, I'll stick with the too much engine for the car technique.

Edited April 16, 2009 by SAmadei

[hyperv6]

The Genisis is only an example of there the market is going. I do not like the car but a affordable, powerful light weight coupe or line of cars powered by a advanced turbo 4 and DOHC V6 appeals to the gowing part of the market not the part that we lose one to a heart attack mid life crises.

Yes there are many old timers out their but they are not going to buy a TA. Note the last years of the 4th gen as good as it was the numbers sucked.

3 GM is big enoiugh to come up with their own trend. TIme to stop living in the past. IF you want Pontiac to grow move on to the next platform and for get the heavy Zeta. Building a Camaro clone is the kind of thinking that got GM into this mess to start with.

Putting a big engine in a over weight car is not how to do it anymore. The idea is to put a powerful moter or any size in a lighter car. This is the true concept that the GTO was based. TOday we build a 4000 pound car and slap a V8 in it and think we did something original, advance and great.

GM has some of the best powertrain and chassies engineers in the world. I think it is time to let Pontiac show case what they can do and let it trickle down to the other lines.

There is nothing wrong with remembering the past but to keep reliving it has lost GM's lead in leader ship as it is. In the 50 GM did cars with fuel injection and even Turbo's. There was the development of OHC 6 and V8 Pontiacs. GM engineering was yeara ahead in many areas but the board failed to let them do what they could.

Lutz empowered his staff and challanged them to do what they could and we now have engines like thel LS9 and LNF. We have a Cobalt that can run circles around any Honda. ETC

The bottom fact is we fans of the GM past are the shrinking marktet and for GM to advance they need to address the growing markets.

I know some of you hate to hear this but time will prove it the right move.

If Ddelorean did not move Pontiac into the future you would have not had many of the cars from the past you still dream about. ALso if GM had not stopped him imagine what cars he would have left for us. We would not be saddled with a Camaro clone but had an original Firebird.

Rebadging the Bird is noit anybetter than just another rebadged Chevy and I would think you guys had had enough of that already. Copying a 1977 is like a Smokey and the Bandit remake. Better left to it's originals glory.

[mustang84]

Michigan?

Iowa

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Corvette can stay at Chevy, because it is basically a value priced sports car. My idea for Pontiac's halo would start about the same price as the Corvette, but mid engine, with less power for the base model such as a 330hp 3.6L, then a 450hp TT 3.6L for about $15,000 more. It won't be as budget priced as the Corvette, but it will be more sophisticated. So for people who wont consider a pushrod V8, they might consider a twin turbo race ready DOHC V6.

Before anyone says it, I realize this would never happen. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't.

I think this sounds great.

It's kind of the idea I touched on with the Solstice in my To GM plan.

The Solstice would be essentially a factory made track car (with a turbo 6) that would focus on weight reduction, balance and dynamics above 'muscle' and would be quicker than a base Vette by nature (and could be built to run with the top Vettes through a good factory aftermarket program.

To me, the Corvette is the ultimate sports car and should remain as such. But we have to consider why the Vette sells. At least part of it's image is based on brawney, big engined, americana and flash. The Solstice (from the same architecture) would be more for the people who are autocross or track purists. they don't care about the image that their car conveys so much. They do however, care about their lap times at the track.

It's two different clienteles for two cars that could co-exist. You'd have people like me who want a 'brute' like the Corvette because of it's performance and everything it represents. Then you'd have people that aren't so into that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Michigan?

Pontiac still resonates with that same generation here... I've said numerous times that I see more G6's around campus and Trans Am shirts than I know what to do with.

I know it's not a scientific measure, but still the cumulative evidence is there.

(Charlotte NC)

Not to mention, the GTO's largest market was CA

Edited April 16, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Dwindling? There are a LOT of people my age who remember fondly those millions of late '70s Firebirds, who are just reaching the point where they are making the coin to afford a toy like that.

Make it look killer enough (like the Stingray in FOG's sig), and the big boys with the $$$ will fawn over it... because when testosterone sees something it wants, the sensible brain can't reassert control.

I agree... And I believe that design has a lot to do with it. Pontiac effed up by trying to go after the BMW crowd with their current themes... You can't go from being a high schoolers wet dream to chasing a German marque in 2 years. The current cars looks good, but they're too conservative. GM needs to understand that you can convey emotion in a Pontiac design WITHOUT being tacky (Case in point: Solstice.. It's an instant classic)

So now, the only Pontiac's that people aspire to own (the people Pontiac used to appeal to) are out of reach and the rest of the line is crap. As for the BMW guys... Sure, you'll get a few defects. But most of them are too brand loyal to give a "lowly Pontiac" a chance.

Sure. So why can't Pontiac do the WRX/Mini thing _AND_ the nostalgia thing? Again, the Firebird is 95% developed... the WRX/Mini fighter isn't even on a sheet of paper yet.

Perfect niche division..

EVERYTHING is already developed. That's what made me so angry about how Pontiac was treated before the collapse. GM could've easily checked the boxes to completely rebuild the Pontiac line, but chose not to. Same goes for today. Zeta is here and viable until 2020, Delta II could EASILY spawn a rebodied and tweaked Cruze to battle the EVO, etc.

Obama, Gore, California and the left are talking about everyone driving small cars. What I want to know, are these folks going to force everyone to diet? I think its absurd that the fattest people in the world would try to wedge themselves into small cars. I bet the WRX and Mini accelerate and handle great with 1400lbs of people squeezed into it.

Probably...

Yes there are many old timers out their but they are not going to buy a TA. Note the last years of the 4th gen as good as it was the numbers sucked.

Ever try to LIVE with a 4th gen Trans AM??!

I absolutely LOVE the car, but I'm probably going to buy a Mustang just because it's easier to live with. I can't even fit into the Trans Am that well.

(Which makes me GIDDY for the downsizing of the future )

Rebadging the Bird is noit anybetter than just another rebadged Chevy and I would think you guys had had enough of that already. Copying a 1977 is like a Smokey and the Bandit remake. Better left to it's originals glory.

FWIW, I never wanted a Camaro rebadge... I was thinking in terms of what the story meant for the future (as in a few years down the road, the trans am could return as a unique product) I would think that GM is done with rebadges (at least I hope)

[Northstar]

No money to develop them. At least not as a full model range. Perhaps a coupe/convertible like the Soltice can become the Pontiac (note emphasis on the singular), but that's all I see as possible when the current lineup goes away.

How would there not be enough money? If they had to be mid-engine, then yes, they probably would be too expensive. However, I don't see how G8, GTO (updated Zeta), and Solstice (updated Kappa) would be too expensive to develop, it seems like the platforms are basically already there.

[hyperv6]

I believe our govt can't be stupid, but I doubt they are that stupid. Capping hp on engines? Not gonna happen.

You doubted me a few days ago. Well I was judging the political climate right! Read on!

They're After Your Freedom by John McElroy on Apr 16th 2009 at 4:56PM

You've undoubtedly read the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's report and seen the videos it released when the organization pitted sub-compacts against mid-size sedans (if not, one is posted below the fold). They really went after the safety of small cars, trying to scare consumers away from buying them.

The IIHS filmed head-on collisions between a Honda Fit and Accord, between a Toyota Camry and a Yaris, and between a Mercedes C-class and a Smart. Each vehicle was traveling at 40 mph, which is the equivalent of smashing into a parked car at 80 mph, and the results were predictable. The videos made the national news, especially the one of the Smart Fortwo bouncing and spinning backwards.

The IIHS has an ulterior motive in conducting these crashes. It's all part of its campaign to limit how much horsepower cars can have, and to lower the national highway speed limit to 55 mph.

Please read the rest on Autoblog. com.

People thought the Patriot Act was infringing on our rights, well with the way things are going right now you a'int seen nothin yet!

Every green lobby and safety lobby has the people they been paying to get into office for year now in. IT is now time for pay backs like we have not seen since Cater and Claybrook.

They scary part is they are not just after our cars but we need to be aware of what they are doing in the other areas of our life.

Edited April 17, 2009 by hyperv6

[CaddyXLR-V]

You doubted me a few days ago. Well I was judging the political climate right! Read on!

They're After Your Freedom by John McElroy on Apr 16th 2009 at 4:56PM

You've undoubtedly read the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's report and seen the videos it released when the organization pitted sub-compacts against mid-size sedans (if not, one is posted below the fold). They really went after the safety of small cars, trying to scare consumers away from buying them.

The IIHS filmed head-on collisions between a Honda Fit and Accord, between a Toyota Camry and a Yaris, and between a Mercedes C-class and a Smart. Each vehicle was traveling at 40 mph, which is the equivalent of smashing into a parked car at 80 mph, and the results were predictable. The videos made the national news, especially the one of the Smart Fortwo bouncing and spinning backwards.

The IIHS has an ulterior motive in conducting these crashes. It's all part of its campaign to limit how much horsepower cars can have, and to lower the national highway speed limit to 55 mph.

Please read the rest on Autoblog. com.

People thought the Patriot Act was infringing on our rights, well with the way things are going right now you a'int seen nothin yet!

Every green lobby and safety lobby has the people they been paying to get into office for year now in. IT is now time for pay backs like we have not seen since Cater and Claybrook.

They scary part is they are not just after our cars but we need to be aware of what they are doing in the other areas of our life.

That doesn't mean it will happen, and it doesn't mean the people of this country will let it happen.

[Camino LS6]

'tis true though, the colectivists are bombarding us with crap like this in every arena.

[hyperv6]

That doesn't mean it will happen, and it doesn't mean the people of this country will let it happen.

Just like GM is too large to fail and the people of this country would never let it happen.

You and them may not have any choice as the people DC are getting to the point where they do what they think is best for us not what we want!

Our rights are slipping faster everyday.

The it can't happen here thinking is what will cost you in the end. Never underestimate the power of the lobbiest in DC.

Edited April 17, 2009 by hyperv6

[SAmadei]

The Genisis is only an example of there the market is going. I do not like the car but a affordable, powerful light weight coupe or line of cars powered by a advanced turbo 4 and DOHC V6 appeals to the gowing part of the market not the part that we lose one to a heart attack mid life crises.

Cars are getting heavier because of the government safety requirements and the consumer's desire for a 25% increase in torsional rigidity every time a new model comes out. The average vehicle in 1993 was 500 pounds heavier than in 1973... that's crazy and since 1993, we've started adding weight even faster.

The Genesis coupe is 3400 lbs, but 182 inches. That is 18.7 pounds per inch. The V6 Camaro is 3750 @ 190... 19.7 pounds per inch, the G8 is 20.4 pounds per inch. Yeah, the Genesis is lighter... but not by much... and for how long before people demand more stuffing.

Granted, Zeta is too heavy in the Camaro... just like the Challenger, GM had to go with what they had. But I fear the government and the public will not allow more than 100-200 pounds to come off before the complaints start. Or, they will have to start using exotic materials... which works against the affordability we expect.

Yes there are many old timers out their but they are not going to buy a TA. Note the last years of the 4th gen as good as it was the numbers sucked.

As FOG mentioned, have you lived with a 4th gen? I haven't... but I have driving a 3rd gen quite a bit... and I tried a 2002 Trans Am Coll Ed. The 3rd and 4th gen 'birds and Camaros lost touch with the consumer, becoming futuristic, swoopy and completely incompatible with real driving.

The 3rd gen I drove, I hit my head on the roof regularly, and had to practically lie down to drive. Getting in and out was a nuts... getting out was a controlled roll out of the car with the hope of catching yourself before you face planted on the pavement. Every driveway and speed bump was a new gouge in the air dam or exhaust tips. Working on the thing was a PITA. The passenger lost valuable foot space to the catalytic. The 4th gen seemed worse.

Yeah, I loved the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies, but I can see why sales flagged. Of course, 11 and 10 year generation cycles hurt it as well.

The new Camaro appears to not suffer from the bleeding edge of the 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds. It is liveable... like the first two generations. This is what future sports/muscle cars need... bad ass styling that doesn't require a contortionist to get money out of an ATM.

GM has some of the best powertrain and chassies engineers in the world. I think it is time to let Pontiac show case what they can do and let it trickle down to the other lines.

There is nothing wrong with remembering the past but to keep reliving it has lost GM's lead in leader ship as it is. In the 50 GM did cars with fuel injection and even Turbo's. There was the development of OHC 6 and V8 Pontiacs. GM engineering was yeara ahead in many areas but the board failed to let them do what they could.

Yeah, but sometimes its best to Keep It Simple, Stupid. Hence the long life of pushrods. If I wanted a featherweight with eight turbos, I have to expect a six figure price tag.

Lutz empowered his staff and challanged them to do what they could and we now have engines like thel LS9 and LNF. We have a Cobalt that can run circles around any Honda. ETC

But they couldn't put it in a RWD chassis like 1978 Sunbird technology, and add traction control... or add AWD?

Rebadging the Bird is noit anybetter than just another rebadged Chevy and I would think you guys had had enough of that already. Copying a 1977 is like a Smokey and the Bandit remake. Better left to it's originals glory.

Ugh! GM rebadges every bad idea across the board for 25 years, and just as we get to a car or two worth rebadging (G8 and Camaro), suddenly its not rebadgable? If you have a killer platform that is flexible enough to give brand personality to more than one brand, its a good thing. It's like casting two or three nets into the river to catch fish instead of one.

The '70s Bird was "just a rebadge", but it was a damn good one. And it sold like ice water in the desert.

The fact that aftermarket companies are willing to put their own cash into developing conversion kits tells you there is a market, likely a huge one because only a SMALL percentage of people are willing to buy a brand new $35K Camaro just to take it apart and add $10K in Firebird parts. You don't see the aftermarket gearing up to make a new generation Skyhawk out of the Cobalt... because that speaks volumes about the future of a small Buick.

It took GM forever to feed the tuner market for the Cavalier/Cobalt to fight the Neons, WRXs, Evos and Civics... to the point where its really too late. GM will miss this boat as well.

[Blake Noble]

I've heard so much bull$h! about this particular piece of GM-related news, I'm turning green with nausea.

When it comes to Pontiac, when it comes to the great Firebirds of yore, you either get it or you don't. Pontiac should appeal to the former and give a big "f@#k you" to the latter.

That's what they did after the muscle car era died and that's what they should be doing now.

... But then again, why am I offering my opinion? It doesn't mean two $h!s in a public john now does it? And neither does anyone else's here. Not mine, not yours, we're all just static being broadcast over a dead signal.

f@#k trying to hold out hope. I think of what might be and what should be and only become more frustrated. So go on GM and throw down the final straw that I undoubtedly know is going to break the camel's back.

[regfootball]

i think we've seen the last of 4 dollar gas for awhile. washington called wall street and opec and said 'that broke our backs, you boys better find a way to make your dollars without ruining the entire US goldmine'.

And it basically proved there was no immediate shortage and the inflated prices were speculator driven.

Now, will prices go up in the next 4 years? Yeah, but not so much as to set back the repair progress that is needed to make our country a world money machine again? FAT CHANCE. The rest of the world depends too much on us being mobile and making cash that folks have conspired behind the scenes to keep gas 'affordable' and 'available' at least for awhile.

Now, the whiney envirogreen freaks have pressured enough folks into thinking its a good idea for us to all downsize our rides. But time and time again proves that people will buy as large as they can afford. Safety is one reason. Yet so much has been set in motion now for the next cycles of product development that unfortunately will the pendulum swing back the otherway, cars underengineered to trim a few pounds but to sacrifice safety and durability and size?

[black02]

Pontiac still resonates with that same generation here... I've said numerous times that I see more G6's around campus and Trans Am shirts than I know what to do with.

I know it's not a scientific measure, but still the cumulative evidence is there.

(Charlotte NC)

Not to mention, the GTO's largest market was CA

Yeah. The GTO might have been Pontiac's biggest seller -- at least in coastal California.

The G6 doesn't sell here at all as far as I can tell. My impression is that Pontiac seems to have a negative brand image among those who aren't muscle car fans. Chevy still seems to be okay. People do like the G8 and the GTO, even if they don't think much of Pontiac.

Though when I suggested to a coworker that he look at a G8 instead of a slightly used 745i, he said he just couldn't see himself in a Pontiac, no matter how nice the G8 was....

This is what GM has to struggle against.

[hyperv6]

Yeah. The GTO might have been Pontiac's biggest seller -- at least in coastal California.

The G6 doesn't sell here at all as far as I can tell. My impression is that Pontiac seems to have a negative brand image among those who aren't muscle car fans. Chevy still seems to be okay. People do like the G8 and the GTO, even if they don't think much of Pontiac.

Though when I suggested to a coworker that he look at a G8 instead of a slightly used 745i, he said he just couldn't see himself in a Pontiac, no matter how nice the G8 was....

This is what GM has to struggle against.

The funny thing is Pontiac anymore is it also has a negitive image with many Muscle car fans today. Not many 64 GTO fans are enthralled with a G6 or G5 and even the Global warming freaks hate the G3.

Too often I have been at Pontiac meets and even in the Pontiac fan base there are two groups. One that accepts all Pontiac and one that feel Pontiac dies in 1979 with the last 400. The Pontiac Oakland club has had to deal with this for years. The club has been struggling to maintain members as the older members sell out and die over the years. Their cars are bought by collectors who do not join clubs. The new members were slow in joining because the older member treated them often like outsiders. The treatment has imporved with the increase of the late model cars but it still happens.

We still yet see the debate go on in the letter page of both Pontiac Magazines.

Todays market Image is everything. Just dropping a big engine in a small car is not cutting it with the youth market anymore. Pontiac needed to build cars for today not 1977.

While car like the Hyundia may not be perfect they are pointing they way the market has gone. Most average consumer today gets more excited over a 3,000 pound car with a turbo 4 cylinder than a 455 V8. They also buy more V6 Mustangs than GT's.

I love a black and gold 77 TA SE more than anyone but that does not mean I want to relive it. If I want a car like that I will buy the real thing. Todays youth less and less car about what was done they are only looking for what is new.

Take a look at the cars in Need For Speed Video and see what they 20 somthings were raised on. What is even worse the youth market has not even embraced performance car like the genertions before.

Image sells more today vs real performance and Pontiac has little image today and most people who are not Pontiac fans could care less what a Judge was or a Super Duty.

I was on a Pontiac Fiero web site and it was amazing hwo many people that did not know what I ment when I used the words TriPower or Super Duty. And these were people who at least owned a Fiero, G6, Solstice Grand Am, Grand Prix or some other late model Pontiac in this discussion.

At this point slapping a Chevy grill on a G8 and use it as a Impala as long as the goverment regs will pemit and make the Kappa into a Chevy version if it is cheap to do. THey are the only tow worth saving at this point.

[CaddyXLR-V]

So you want to drop the G8 and change it to a Chevy, so Chevy will get to lose 250,000 Impala sales. Great idea. Mustang V6s sell because they are cheap, not because people pick them over a GT. Using that reasoning, no one in the younger generation is interested in BMWs, they all want Corollas.

Do you realize how much people under 25 pay for insurance for Mustang GTs and Camaros? I looked up a Mustang GT for me, and they want over $400 per MONTH. My GTO is $200. I guarantee a Camaro with a V8 will be over $400 also. Do you think that has an effect on why it seems like younger people don't care about performance?

[cire]

The funny thing is Pontiac anymore is it also has a negitive image with many Muscle car fans today. Not many 64 GTO fans are enthralled with a G6 or G5 and even the Global warming freaks hate the G3.

Too often I have been at Pontiac meets and even in the Pontiac fan base there are two groups. One that accepts all Pontiac and one that feel Pontiac dies in 1979 with the last 400. The Pontiac Oakland club has had to deal with this for years. The club has been struggling to maintain members as the older members sell out and die over the years. Their cars are bought by collectors who do not join clubs. The new members were slow in joining because the older member treated them often like outsiders. The treatment has imporved with the increase of the late model cars but it still happens.

We still yet see the debate go on in the letter page of both Pontiac Magazines.

Todays market Image is everything. Just dropping a big engine in a small car is not cutting it with the youth market anymore. Pontiac needed to build cars for today not 1977.

While car like the Hyundia may not be perfect they are pointing they way the market has gone. Most average consumer today gets more excited over a 3,000 pound car with a turbo 4 cylinder than a 455 V8. They also buy more V6 Mustangs than GT's.

I love a black and gold 77 TA SE more than anyone but that does not mean I want to relive it. If I want a car like that I will buy the real thing. Todays youth less and less car about what was done they are only looking for what is new.

Take a look at the cars in Need For Speed Video and see what they 20 somthings were raised on. What is even worse the youth market has not even embraced performance car like the genertions before.

Image sells more today vs real performance and Pontiac has little image today and most people who are not Pontiac fans could care less what a Judge was or a Super Duty.

I was on a Pontiac Fiero web site and it was amazing hwo many people that did not know what I ment when I used the words TriPower or Super Duty. And these were people who at least owned a Fiero, G6, Solstice Grand Am, Grand Prix or some other late model Pontiac in this discussion.

At this point slapping a Chevy grill on a G8 and use it as a Impala as long as the goverment regs will pemit and make the Kappa into a Chevy version if it is cheap to do. THey are the only tow worth saving at this point.

I agree and disagree. I think Pontiac could find its way back to relevance if GM would stay the course on transforming the brand into a RWD affordable performance brand. I don't think the road to relevance includes burying the brand in pure nostalgia or slapping a retro-ized twin-nostril grille and flaming bird hood decal on a Camaro and calling it a day. Chevrolet has fully explored the retro route; Pontiac should be something more modern and contemporary. I think following the path implemented by the current G8 sedan would be the way to go in transforming the brand into something other than a somewhat sportier alternative to Chevrolet. The initial development of Zeta and its associated costs are completed and spent. I would continue development on Zeta to get it to its next phase of being a lighter and more fuel efficient platform that could underpin a next generation of downsized vehicles. The Pontiac of the future could play a unique niche role in the market if GM used this next gen version of Zeta to create 2 sporty car series (one compact sedan/coupe and one midsize sedan/coupe) for the brand. The styling direction of these vehicles should continue the Holden inspired direction implemented with the G8: no nonsense, yet sporty styling. The only thing I would revive from Pontiac's past are a couple of the brand's former model names to grace the exterior of these 2 brand redefining car series (Grand Prix, Bonneville, Fiero, LeMans, Tempest, Ventura, etc...). To offset costs, these cars could be rebadged to be sold in foreign markets. To me, this plan would make Pontiac something unique, distinct, and lucrative for GM. Until these 2 car series can be launched, I would go ahead and reduce Pontiac down to its niche status with just the Solstice coupe/roadster and G8 sedan to serve as a sort of precursor to what the brand will become.

[hyperv6]

So you want to drop the G8 and change it to a Chevy, so Chevy will get to lose 250,000 Impala sales. Great idea. Mustang V6s sell because they are cheap, not because people pick them over a GT. Using that reasoning, no one in the younger generation is interested in BMWs, they all want Corollas.

Do you realize how much people under 25 pay for insurance for Mustang GTs and Camaros? I looked up a Mustang GT for me, and they want over $400 per MONTH. My GTO is $200. I guarantee a Camaro with a V8 will be over $400 also. Do you think that has an effect on why it seems like younger people don't care about performance?

You can call the G8 /Chevy a Caprice or what ever you want my point was to save a great car from not coming to this country not kill off the pesent car even as old as it is.

Either way the present Impala is mostly fleet sales [Police package has been popular] can remain for how ever much longer it takes to properly replace it properly like the Crown Vic.

For what ever reasons the V6 Mustang sells the bottom line is it creates the needed volume and it sells. If you can sell to the youth market a fast fun car they could care less if it has 8 pistons. Most were brought up in families that never owned a V8.

Or do you just want to sell V8 TA's to a bunch of fat old men who can afford them.

The bottom line is the future of V8 in most cars is limited. Like the present adminstration in office or not they are passing laws and requirements that will kill large engines and HP capping is going to happen unless we vote a lot of people out of office soon.

Just today they gave control to the EPA to control greenhouse gasses and declared them a health hazzard to humans. This ruling can place some majore changes on the auto industry.

We will have V8 engines but they will be limited and you will have to pay dearly for them.

[hyperv6]

I agree and disagree. I think Pontiac could find its way back to relevance if GM would stay the course on transforming the brand into a RWD affordable performance brand. I don't think the road to relevance includes burying the brand in pure nostalgia or slapping a retro-ized twin-nostril grille and flaming bird hood decal on a Camaro and calling it a day. Chevrolet has fully explored the retro route; Pontiac should be something more modern and contemporary. I think following the path implemented by the current G8 sedan would be the way to go in transforming the brand into something other than a somewhat sportier alternative to Chevrolet. The initial development of Zeta and its associated costs are completed and spent. I would continue development on Zeta to get it to its next phase of being a lighter and more fuel efficient platform that could underpin a next generation of downsized vehicles. The Pontiac of the future could play a unique niche role in the market if GM used this next gen version of Zeta to create 2 sporty car series (one compact sedan/coupe and one midsize sedan/coupe) for the brand. The styling direction of these vehicles should continue the Holden inspired direction implemented with the G8: no nonsense, yet sporty styling. The only thing I would revive from Pontiac's past are a couple of the brand's former model names to grace the exterior of these 2 brand redefining car series (Grand Prix, Bonneville, Fiero, LeMans, Tempest, Ventura, etc...). To offset costs, these cars could be rebadged to be sold in foreign markets. To me, this plan would make Pontiac something unique, distinct, and lucrative for GM. Until these 2 car series can be launched, I would go ahead and reduce Pontiac down to its niche status with just the Solstice coupe/roadster and G8 sedan to serve as a sort of precursor to what the brand will become.

Good idea but how do we pay for it?

[balthazar]

BMW, a brand too often held up as example of 'how to do it' has been building stylistic parodies of 1 design for 40 years now- 4 round headlights and 2 plastic nostril grilles on a boxy, non-fluid body. Banglization -love it or hate it... or be apathetic toward it- has been the only change since the late '60s... yet somehow these 'heart-attacks waiting to happen fat old men' still buy them.

And the one opportunity taken to do something really fresh resulted in one of the most retro designs ever seen: the mini. "People old enough to remember the Mini are not going to run out & buy Union-Jack-Roofed subcompacts to try and relive their youth".

Whoops. Somehow there, retro worked.... and the basis wasn't even all that enthusiastically recieved back then.

Criticize at will, but keep it consistant. If the mini had potential for success as one of the strongest retro designs based on a ho-hum tin can, there certainly is potential for a retro pop culture icon that sold nearly a quarter million and has a huge following.

Another thing lacking greatly in consistancy is the useage of 'badge-engineered'. We need to get that straight, finally.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You can call the G8 /Chevy a Caprice or what ever you want my point was to save a great car from not coming to this country not kill off the pesent car even as old as it is.

Either way the present Impala is mostly fleet sales [Police package has been popular] can remain for how ever much longer it takes to properly replace it properly like the Crown Vic.

For what ever reasons the V6 Mustang sells the bottom line is it creates the needed volume and it sells. If you can sell to the youth market a fast fun car they could care less if it has 8 pistons. Most were brought up in families that never owned a V8.

Or do you just want to sell V8 TA's to a bunch of fat old men who can afford them.

The bottom line is the future of V8 in most cars is limited. Like the present adminstration in office or not they are passing laws and requirements that will kill large engines and HP capping is going to happen unless we vote a lot of people out of office soon.

Just today they gave control to the EPA to control greenhouse gasses and declared them a health hazzard to humans. This ruling can place some majore changes on the auto industry.

We will have V8 engines but they will be limited and you will have to pay dearly for them.

You work in the aftermarket business don't you? That's probably why you hear so much about HP being capped. The aftermarket parts maker probably want that to happen, because they stand the most to gain. HP limited to 200? Go to the aftermarket shop and add a turbo.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Companies will probably find a way around it anyway, because that's what people want. All they need to do is put limits in the PCM, someone buys the car, has the PCM flashed, and you get the HP back.

[gm4life]

Iowa

Hell yeah that is where I am from. It means something to me too!

[hyperv6]

Companies will probably find a way around it anyway, because that's what people want. All they need to do is put limits in the PCM, someone buys the car, has the PCM flashed, and you get the HP back.

I work in the performance aftermarket. I know what can or could be done.

I also know these same people are looking to stop modifications too, They are crazy but not totally stupid.

There are pending laws now that have been stopped becuse they could get little goverment support. But once they pass in one state it is like an infection into 14 states,

Oregon is already trying to get it passed where you can not change the tire size or type of tire on you car that it was orignally came with. It will not pass this time but they will not stop. This also included sway bars. too.

Their concept was that larger tires create more rolling resistance and in turn make more global warming.

You had better wake up and pay attention on what is going on in our country. The people who hate our cars have the upper hand and once they are gone it will take years to reverse things that is if they can be reversed.

People never though 55 MPH would have passed but it did and how long till it take to undo it?

Go to the SEMA web site and read up on pending laws and what all different state have going you never hear about on the news.

We all need to look big picture here as more is at stake than just Pontiac.

People also want a lot of other things to but that does not mean the goverment is going to do what they want.

The things my company and others see has the entire industry worried. I wish more would know about it.

Edited April 17, 2009 by hyperv6

[prinzSD]

As FOG mentioned, have you lived with a 4th gen? I haven't... but I have driving a 3rd gen quite a bit... and I tried a 2002 Trans Am Coll Ed. The 3rd and 4th gen 'birds and Camaros lost touch with the consumer, becoming futuristic, swoopy and completely incompatible with real driving.

The 3rd gen I drove, I hit my head on the roof regularly, and had to practically lie down to drive. Getting in and out was a nuts... getting out was a controlled roll out of the car with the hope of catching yourself before you face planted on the pavement. Every driveway and speed bump was a new gouge in the air dam or exhaust tips. Working on the thing was a PITA. The passenger lost valuable foot space to the catalytic. The 4th gen seemed worse.

Yeah, I loved the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies, but I can see why sales flagged. Of course, 11 and 10 year generation cycles hurt it as well.

The new Camaro appears to not suffer from the bleeding edge of the 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds. It is liveable... like the first two generations. This is what future sports/muscle cars need... bad ass styling that doesn't require a contortionist to get money out of an ATM.

As one who has lived with an 85 TA, well since 1985 and a daily driver 1993 TA since 1993 which is approaching 200,000 miles I am very aware of the pluses and minuses of the 4th gen in particular. I may be in the minority, but I am willing to live with some of the compromises in the 4 th gen design, like the low angled front windshield, low seating and a front end and rear quarter panels you can not see when parking. I chose to accept them because at the time nothing could touch the TA/Z28 for it preformance and price ratio. To this day, there are plenty of new cars that I can still blow away their doors. The sheeple are not willing to compromise. I like the idea od the 1st scenario, but the second scenario is a more viable plan for Pontiac. GM did the 5th gen camaro right and I think if they set their minds to it, they can do a proper TA, even if it has to be smaller and lighter. Just make sure it has a rebel attitude and the performance is there to back it up. Needless to say, if a new TA came out I would buy it and I don't care what the public thinks of Pontiac... I will smear it in their face at the stoplight and tracks.

Edited: some spelling

Edited April 17, 2009 by prinzSD

[balthazar]

My buddy owns an '02 Z28 convertible, but he's moreso a classic Chevy guy. I've ribbed him to get rid of it ('Too new!' I point out), but he loves it; says it'll never go unless it's replaced with a '11 Camaro convert. He's about 6'3" and I would guess a minimum of 250 lbs. He drives the snot out of it, too. I guess he finds it completely livable, somehow.

[SAmadei]

The new Camaro appears to not suffer from the bleeding edge of the 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds. It is liveable... like the first two generations. This is what future sports/muscle cars need... bad ass styling that doesn't require a contortionist to get money out of an ATM.

As one who has lived with an 85 TA, well since 1985 and a daily driver 1993 TA since 1993 which is approaching 200,000 miles I am very aware of the pluses and minuses of the 4th gen in particular. I may be in the minority, but I am willing to live with some of the compromises in the 4 th gen design, like the low angled front windshield, low seating and a front end and rear quarter panels you can not see when parking. I chose to accept them because at the time nothing could touch the TA/Z28 for it preformance and price ratio. To this day, there are plenty of new cars that I can still blow away their doors. The sheeple are not willing to compromise. I like the idea od the 1st scenario, but the second scenario is a more viable plan for Pontiac. GM did the 5th gen camaro right and I think if they set their minds to it, they can do a proper TA, even if it has to be smaller and lighter. Just make sure it has a rebel attitude and the performance is there to back it up. Needless to say, if a new TA came out I would buy it and I don't care what the public thinks of Pontiac... I will smear it in their face at the stoplight and tracks.

Edited: some spelling

I'm really not knocking the 3rd or 4th F-bodies. I love them, too. My point is only that it limits the sales potential... just as people who need to drive furniture around in their cars aren't lining up to buy Minis.

I was willing to live with the drawbacks, as well... but not as my only car. Planning on having multiple cars is something that would limit sales.

Of course, performance and price ratio isn't necessarily related to driving a super-low wedge. The new Camaro is reasonably aerodynamic and will be a performance monster without being as hard to live with. I'm convinced GM could make a car shaped like a brick into a performance monster with its LS3, LS9, LSA plants.

[cire]

BMW, a brand too often held up as example of 'how to do it' has been building stylistic parodies of 1 design for 40 years now- 4 round headlights and 2 plastic nostril grilles on a boxy, non-fluid body. Banglization -love it or hate it... or be apathetic toward it- has been the only change since the late '60s... yet somehow these 'heart-attacks waiting to happen fat old men' still buy them.

And the one opportunity taken to do something really fresh resulted in one of the most retro designs ever seen: the mini. "People old enough to remember the Mini are not going to run out & buy Union-Jack-Roofed subcompacts to try and relive their youth".

Whoops. Somehow there, retro worked.... and the basis wasn't even all that enthusiastically recieved back then.

Criticize at will, but keep it consistant. If the mini had potential for success as one of the strongest retro designs based on a ho-hum tin can, there certainly is potential for a retro pop culture icon that sold nearly a quarter million and has a huge following.

Another thing lacking greatly in consistancy is the useage of 'badge-engineered'. We need to get that straight, finally.

I think retro icons and their related designs are great and there is a place in the market for them. I also think the new Camaro is a beautiful modern interpretation of a classic and iconic design. I just don't think retro design needs to be explored at every GM division. Chevrolet has done it quite successfully and I think it should remain their "thing". I would like to see Pontiac move in a more contemporary direction with their RWD offerings. Having 2 sporty, contemporary, affordable RWD sedan/coupe car series would make Pontiac sort of unique in the market (to me, Chrysler LLC's Challenger, Charger, and 300 are all varying degrees of retro design also) and serve to better differentiate it from Chevrolet. It would give GM a chance to attract 2 different types of buyers. Chevrolet can be utilized to appeal to those who appreciate retro styling while Pontiac can be utilized to appeal to those who want something more contemporary.

I also think the current G8 (as well as the Torana TT36 Concept) has the same sort of BMW-esque thing going on with its styling that you touched on in your post; it is a design that could simply be evolved with each succeeding generation and still remain fresh, relevant, and instantly recognizable as Pontiac (at least in North America). The G8 is understated and doesn't break any new ground design-wise, but it has an appeal that effectively straddles the line between timeless and contemporary while exuding a conservatively sporty edge. I think this is an appropriate future design direction for Pontiac.

Edited April 18, 2009 by cire

[cire]

Good idea but how do we pay for it?

Basically, transforming Pontiac can sort of be put on hold for a while. As far as B-P-G is concerned, transforming, expanding, and improving Buick should be the top priority. Buick is the brand that will generate the most volume for B-P-G in the future. It should receive most of the attention at the moment. The next gen Zeta project that I proposed would be something to pursue once Buick is generating volume (and hopefully profits) for the sales channel and the corporation.

The Solstice coupe/roadster and G8 sedan will have to be enough to position Pontiac in its proper niche for the time being.

[Camino LS6]

I think retro icons and their related designs are great and there is a place in the market for them. I also think the new Camaro is a beautiful modern interpretation of a classic and iconic design. I just don't think retro design needs to be explored at every GM division. Chevrolet has done it quite successfully and I think it should remain their "thing". I would like to see Pontiac move in a more contemporary direction with their RWD offerings. Having 2 sporty, contemporary, affordable RWD sedan/coupe car series would make Pontiac sort of unique in the market (to me, Chrysler LLC's Challenger, Charger, and 300 are all varying degrees of retro design also) and serve to better differentiate it from Chevrolet. It would give GM a chance to attract 2 different types of buyers. Chevrolet can be utilized to appeal to those who appreciate retro styling while Pontiac can be utilized to appeal to those who want something more contemporary.

I also think the current G8 (as well as the Torana TT36 Concept) has the same sort of BMW-esque thing going on with its styling that you touched on in your post; it is a design that could simply be evolved with each succeeding generation and still remain fresh, relevant, and instantly recognizable as Pontiac (at least in North America). The G8 is understated and doesn't break any new ground design-wise, but it has an appeal that effectively straddles the line between timeless and contemporary while exuding a conservatively sporty edge. I think this is an appropriate future design direction for Pontiac.

The G8 is far better looking than current BMWs, as well as being a much more rational buy.

As for Keeping Pontiac restricted to just the Solstice and G8 while Buick gets it together, I basically agree - except that GM should bring other G8 variants here pronto.

They are already in production, so slap an arrowhead on 'em and get them over here to keep Pontiac going while Buick re-tools.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The G8 is far better looking than current BMWs, as well as being a much more rational buy.

As for Keeping Pontiac restricted to just the Solstice and G8 while Buick gets it together, I basically agree - except that GM should bring other G8 variants here pronto.

They are already in production, so slap an arrowhead on 'em and get them over here to keep Pontiac going while Buick re-tools.

check http://nevergoingtohappen.com

[haypops]

As for Keeping Pontiac restricted to just the Solstice and G8 while Buick gets it together, I basically agree - except that GM should bring other G8 variants here pronto.

I wonder if the govt. auto board isn't putting to much emphasis on number of brands and dealers and too little on factories and architectures. Can GM really afford Wilmington and the Kappa architecture to produce a couple of hundred cars/month. Likewise exactly what does the G8 contribute to U.S. employment and our manufacturing base if its imported from Australia.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I wonder if the govt. auto board isn't putting to much emphasis on number of brands and dealers and too little on factories and architectures. Can GM really afford Wilmington and the Kappa architecture to produce a couple of hundred cars/month. Likewise exactly what does the G8 contribute to U.S. employment and our manufacturing base if its imported from Australia.

It can afford Wilmington when the Corvette is moved there from Bowling Green and built there along side of the Kappas ...

[Croc]

I wonder if the govt. auto board isn't putting to much emphasis on number of brands and dealers and too little on factories and architectures. Can GM really afford Wilmington and the Kappa architecture to produce a couple of hundred cars/month. Likewise exactly what does the G8 contribute to U.S. employment and our manufacturing base if its imported from Australia.

I can't disagree with this. I have had the same suspicion as well.

[Camino LS6]

check http://nevergoingtohappen.com

Right, because GM is just that stupid.

[enzl]

Right, because GM is just that stupid.

Shouldn't the ST & Wagon already be most of the way there? They had be greenlighted at some point, right?

I think that's a great idea...make even more sense to build them alongside Camaro....if I could get away with RWD for my wife, I'd love the wagon.

[Camino LS6]

Shouldn't the ST & Wagon already be most of the way there? They had be greenlighted at some point, right?

I think that's a great idea...make even more sense to build them alongside Camaro....if I could get away with RWD for my wife, I'd love the wagon.

ST is 100% there, the wagon is essentially there as well.

They were designed to US spec from the start.

"Shovel-ready"

[gm4life]

ST is 100% there, the wagon is essentially there as well.

They were designed to US spec from the start.

"Shovel-ready"

I say do it.

[rkmdogs]

As for what Pontiac needs to be. It needs to be smaller, lighter, fast and fun to drive. It will need to get higher MPG if it is to live into the future.

So forget about all the big V8 retro ideas. Why follow the Mustang, Camaro and Challanger into a dying market when you could lead the rest into a new market that has to come due to coming goverment regulations.

Lighter weight cars will give us handling and braking the present 3900 pound cars can't give. As I see that it is a good thing.

When did you invent a people-shrinker????

Get real! Small cars are forced on the public by penalties from government regs!

People are not getting smaller, they in fact are getting bigger! Until you can invent a pill to make

people like being stuffed like sardines in a can, small cars will only succeed by economic penalties.

What small cars have had the market success that standard cars have enjoyed for years!

Stop your wimping!!!!

Lighter ?------ go read a physics book on the subject of mass impact!

3900 lb cars were created by government regs to make safety cocoons! My 1983 full-framed

Malibu only weighed 3380 lbs!...... by actual scale test.

But it did not include the B/S currently required that allows you to become an inattentive driver.