GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius

[HarleyEarl]

GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius Struggling U.S. automaker targets Toyota with plans for a cheaper hybrid SUV. November 16, 2005 As General Motors’ stock sank to its lowest level in 18 years on Wednesday, the troubled automaker turned to green technology for hope, pledging to undercut the competition when it introduces a hybrid version of the Saturn VUE next summer. “We think it will be the most affordable hybrid on the market,” Susan Garavaglia, manager of communications for GM’s powertrain division, said at a meeting in San Francisco. “Hopefully, we’re going to be opening up the hybrid market to more consumers.” GM was late to the hybrid game, making its first passenger vehicles—the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra hybrid pickup trucks—available to consumers in the 2005 model year. But the company hopes the Saturn hybrid SUV will help it gain on its competitors, including the ultra-popular Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid. GM could use a big hit. Its shares have lost 48 percent of their value since December when they set a 52-week high of $40.82. The stock closed down $1.32 at $21.29 on Wednesday on trading of 35.4 million shares, more than three times the daily average. ‘We don’t want to be the company selling vacuum tubes when the rest of the world has moved to transistors.’ -Dave Barthmuss, Financial woes have plagued the company, which posted $1.6 billion in losses in the third quarter, down from a profit of $315 million in the same period last year. Earlier this month, the United Auto Workers approved a measure that will save the Detroit-based company significant healthcare costs. The company’s Saturn division has yet to turn a profit. “I think the hybrid is one of our best opportunities to become profitable over time,” said Fred Cartwright, director of technology planning for GM Powertrain. “But it’s just one of several units within Saturn that hopes to bring the right product to its customers at the right time.” He said the hybrid technology is still very expensive, and it will take a long-term commitment to bring it to profitability. “We are absolutely committed. Hybrids are a big part of our future, globally,” he said. Cost Factors A cheaper hybrid may appeal to motorists who want to cut their gasoline bills, but are put off by the fact that hybrids typically cost $3,000 to $4,000 more than conventional cars—enough to buy 1,200 to 1,600 gallons of gasoline at $2.50 per gallon. However, the company won’t disclose details about the VUE hybrid’s pricing or fuel economy until January. The Saturn hybrid’s engine will be significantly different from the hybrid system in GM pickups. The Saturn’s will include electric power assistance, which will allow the Saturn to accelerate faster, Ms. Garavaglia said. Otherwise, the powertrain will have similar features: shutting off the engine when the car is stopped, braking, or decelerating. It will also use braking to regenerate power. While hybrids still account for less than 1 percent of total U.S. vehicle sales, their numbers are growing fast. In the United States, hybrid registrations were up 81 percent in 2004 to 83,153, according to automotive research firm R.L. Polk. Toyota is the top hybrid manufacturer with a 64 percent market share in 2004. Honda is the second-largest hybrid manufacturer with 31 percent of the market last year, according to research firm J.D. Power. More Hybrids The Saturn isn’t the only hybrid GM is planning for the future. The company plans to put the same system in the Chevy Malibu, and says it will launch a third hybrid system—a two-mode hybrid that it is developing with DaimlerChrysler—in the Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon during 2007. Together, GM expects to launch 12 hybrids in the next few years. But the Saturn makes a sensible next step, said Mr. Cartwright. “It is one of the highest-volume SUVs on the market today,” he said. “Saturn was also very much involved in the EV1 program, so that image for Saturn has already been established. We see the Saturn VUE as a real flagship for being a real global product.” The EV1 was Saturn’s electric vehicle, which was introduced in 1996, but did not sell in large numbers. GM also hopes the hybrids will help pave the way for the larger goal—hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. GM expects those to hit the roads in five to 10 years, said Dave Barthmuss, North Coast manager of advanced technology. Mr. Barthmuss said it is essential for GM to keep up with innovation. “We don’t want to be the company selling vacuum tubes when the rest of the world has moved to transistors,” he said. Despite its financial troubles, the company has shown no signs of decelerating investment in core technologies, Mr. Cartwright said. “With a lot of companies, typically advanced technologies could be the first to go, but that has not been the case here at all,” he said. “Still, he added, the financial issue “puts a little more uncertainty over the whole business.”

[capriceman]

Late??? GM has been toying with hybrids and Alternative fuels since the early 70's???? they sold info to the US military on Alternative fuels in the late 90's for there run off of every thing dirt bike.

[pow]

Should be interesting to guesstimate the EPA figures. Current SUV hybrids: Escape FWD = 36/31 Escape AWD = 33/29 Highlander/RX400h FWD = 33/28 Highlander/RX400h AWD = 31/27 The VUE FWD currently gets 23/29 MPG with 2.2L Ecotec and 5-speed manual. VUE AWD gets 22/27 with the same engine but a 4-speed auto.

[Cadillacfan]

I thought this was going to be a mild hybrid. I guess GM decided to go with a full-blown one. I'm sort of indifferent to hybrids. On one hand, they give a little bit better fuel economy but on the other hand, they are just marketing gimmicks that will die off in about 10 years when alternative fuels come into play.

[Ultra Magnus]

I have to see it and its specs to figure out how this is going to be cheaper and better.

[ToniCipriani]

I don't know, they're sort of wierd. They're releasing an SUV in Summer, and roadster in Winter. I know, it's more of the hybrid, but still. It just sounds to me that way.

[jmore1276]

Hy-brids are not so much about saving money (Prius...$7000 to replace battery...so you can imagine the depreciation at trade in) but being envirenmentally friendly. I'm all for people driving Hy-brids and other alternative fuel vehicles 'cause it will cause gasoline prices to drop and make it cheaper for me to drive my gas guzzling V8 without DOD!!! Thanx "Tree-Huggers!!!!!!!!!" :metal: :cheers:

[HarleyEarl]

To me, hybrids are a good touchy feely PR exercise....purchasers feel good about what they are driving...financially they are not further ahead and there are very clean running gasoline engines available. Some cars now produce emit cleaner emissions than the air around them.

[bearrunner44]

Just for once, I wish GM could keep things under their hat for a while. Imagine how much good press they could have had if they had surprised everyone and announced this 2 months before it went on sale?

[sciguy_0504]

Just for once, I wish GM could keep things under their hat for a while.  Imagine how much good press they could have had if they had surprised everyone and announced this 2 months before it went on sale?

[post="44451"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Good point.

It seems like the hybrid in the Vue will be more comparable to Honda's rather than Toyota's. I don't have a problem with it, just pointing out what it's related to. It's a good idea but I think an even better idea would be to put the hybrid on more popular, better selling cars that come from a brand that is actually profitable.

[Satty]

I lookaed at a used Prius hybrid the other day. It didn't have many miles on it, but in the end I couldn't feel comfortable buying a used hybrid from an independant dealership. Hybrids have so many questions, I hope GM gets it right, does a LOT of long term testing before putting these things on the market. The bad press would be aweful. They also need to protect the buyer with huge-ass warranties that can be transferred.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think the EV1 is far from the consumer mindset and Saturns image. I'm all for the hybrid Vue, but capitalizing on the image of the EV1, which has been extinct for numerous years, is a lost cause.

[HarleyEarl]

I shudder to think of these cars years from now on....on the used car dealer lots....the battery replacement will be very expensive..they are a big question mark in the long haul.

[drew770]

Better late then never!!! GM seems to always be late to the game. As the worlds largest automaker you would think they would have the brains, talent, and resources to give Toyota a run for it's money. But again it's GM and Wagoner!!

[sciguy_0504]

To add to what I posted earlier, I hope GM takes its time and does not rush this to market. Make sure it's as powerful as it needs to be (as it's in an SUV), smooth, etc. I'd rather have it delayed to fix the small problems than to have hundreds of recalls or bad PR for rushing it to market.

[pow]

I thought this was going to be a mild hybrid.  I guess GM decided to go with a full-blown one.  I'm sort of indifferent to hybrids.  On one hand, they give a little bit better fuel economy but on the other hand, they are just marketing gimmicks that will die off in about 10 years when alternative fuels come into play.

[post="44381"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, this is a mild hybrid, similar to the Accord's IMA. It cannot run on electric motor alone.

[Flybrian]

But the Saturn makes a sensible next step, said Mr. Cartwright. “It is one of the highest-volume SUVs on the market today,” he said. “Saturn was also very much involved in the EV1 program, so that image for Saturn has already been established. We see the Saturn VUE as a real flagship for being a real global product.”

The EV1 was Saturn’s electric vehicle, which was introduced in 1996, but did not sell in large numbers.

[post="44289"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What nimrod wrote this?

1) EV1 was a divisionless car. It carried GM badges and was leased through Saturn dealerships. In fact, it was the only GM-branded vehicle ever produced by General Motors.

2) The EV1 never "sold in large numbers." In fact, the sales total for the EV1 was ZERO. All 800+ GenI and GenII cars were leased to the owners for between $350-499/mo for 36 months, not counting federal, state, and local refunds.

GM withdrew the EV1 after CARB first withdrew their ZEV mandate. Other factors like the lack of public charging stations at time of launch and the more limited range of the first-generation lead-acid EV1.

People - like this article - love to gloss over the EV1 as if it was yet another half-baked dead-end by GM. Far from it. Keep in mind this was the very first all-new, all-original, all-electric car sold and marketed in the United States by anyone. A modified EV1 set the land speed record for production EVs at 183mph. There were even hybrid and four-seater version of the EV1 in the works.

[Drew Dowdell]

Better late then never!!!
GM seems to always be late to the game.
As the worlds largest automaker you would think they would have the brains, talent, and resources to give Toyota a run for it's money.

But again it's GM and Wagoner!!

[post="44551"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM might be later, but their final product is cheaper and simpler.

GM was slow with VVT in their engines, but the final product is simple and elegant in it's function, so much so that it makes the iVTEC, VVTi and VANOS look like Rube Goldberg machines.

GM was not the inventor of front wheel drive. I'm not sure who first, but Cord had a front wheel drive in the 30s. Cord's was quite complex and quite unreliable. GM took the idea simplified it and made it work so well that these days we have to listen to most of you dolts whining about it!! :P :P :P

The IMA in the VUE looks like it will follow this same pattern.

[Drew Dowdell]

People - like this article - love to gloss over the EV1 as if it was yet another half-baked dead-end by GM. Far from it. Keep in mind this was the very first all-new, all-original, all-electric car sold and marketed in the United States by anyone. A modified EV1 set the land speed record for production EVs at 183mph. There were even hybrid and four-seater version of the EV1 in the works.

[post="44601"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Something else rarely pointed out. After GM "pulled the plug" on the EV-1 they tried to round up the vehicles out there. Many of the owners didn't want to give up the car. Some resorted to hiding them and GM had to threaten legal action to get a few of the cars back. There was an association of EV-1 owners that petitioned GM to allow them to keep their cars and waive GM of and liablity regarding them

[The O.C.]

What nimrod wrote this?

1) EV1 was a divisionless car. It carried GM badges and was leased through Saturn dealerships. In fact, it was the only GM-branded vehicle ever produced by General Motors.

2) The EV1 never "sold in large numbers." In fact, the sales total for the EV1 was ZERO. All 800+ GenI and GenII cars were leased to the owners for between $350-499/mo for 36 months, not counting federal, state, and local refunds.

GM withdrew the EV1 after CARB first withdrew their ZEV mandate. Other factors like the lack of public charging stations at time of launch and the more limited range of the first-generation lead-acid EV1.

People - like this article - love to gloss over the EV1 as if it was yet another half-baked dead-end by GM. Far from it. Keep in mind this was the very first all-new, all-original, all-electric car sold and marketed in the United States by anyone. A modified EV1 set the land speed record for production EVs at 183mph. There were even hybrid and four-seater version of the EV1 in the works.

[post="44601"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Saturn also managed the technology of the EV1 after its development. I have a good friend that works for Saturn in California and he was a Western Region Technical Manager and his #1 responsibility was EV1 (back then.) They also supported Saturn dealerships in the maintenance and repair of the EV1.

[turbo200]

I hope that GM also release a version for the other twin Thetas; Chevy is GM's mainline brand and is their main promotional outlet.

[G. David Felt]

<_< Puleaseeeee Hybrid are a marketing Exercise in distractive lying. Look at all the toxic compounds it takes to build the battery packs, extra electric parts etc. The autos create just as much toxic waste if not more than is saved by the hybrid system. Let the uninformed waste their money. A coworker traded his Highlander SUV in for the HYBID version and spent the extra 12K the dealer demanded for it. Reality check, 2 months later he is madder than a hornet as he only got a lousy 2 mile per gallon more in driving it. yea the 0-60 times are 2+ seconds faster than the non hybrid version but the end result is it is a marketing tool. No real benefits! IMO <_<

[Drew Dowdell]

<_<  Puleaseeeee  Hybrid are a marketing Exercise in distractive lying.

Look at all the toxic compounds it takes to build the battery packs, extra electric parts etc.  The autos create just as much toxic waste if not more than is saved by the hybrid system.  Let the uninformed waste their money.

A coworker traded his Highlander SUV in for the HYBID version and spent the extra 12K the dealer demanded for it.  Reality check, 2 months later he is madder than a hornet as he only got a lousy 2 mile per gallon more in driving it.  yea the 0-60 times are 2+ seconds faster than the non hybrid version but the end result is it is a marketing tool.  No real benefits!  IMO <_<

[post="44936"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What your co-worker is experiencing is disappointment through misleading advertising. What Toyota and Honda are doing with their upper end hybrids is using the hybrid system in place of a supercharger. It's a way for them to get better 0-60 performance without any sacrifice in efficiency. Honda even admits to this when talking about the Accord. They are giving the customer what their cake and letting them eat it too. Edited November 18, 2005 by Oldsmoboi

[Sal Collaziano]

Oh, my God.. How much "cheaper" can they get? This new vehicle is going to be made out of cardboard with manual locks and windows and no air conditioning. Give it up...

[fuel_sipping]

What your co-worker is experiencing is disappointment through misleading advertising.  What Toyota and Honda are doing with their upper end hybrids is using the hybrid system in place of a supercharger. It's a way for them to get better 0-60 performance without any sacrifice in efficiency. Honda even admits to this when talking about the Accord. They are giving the customer what their cake and letting them eat it too.

[post="44944"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

To sort of explain what he means here is an excert from Popular Science's December 2005 issue. It is a exagerated in some areas as some of the auto tech in there is...

With the latest version of parent Toyota's gasoline-electric Hybrid Synergy Drive system under the hood, the posh RX 400h is the first SUV hybrid that actually outperforms its gasoline counterpart. A 3.3-liter gasoline V6 teams up with powerful front and rear electric motors to create a four-wheel-drive RX that is not only quicker (7.3 seconds to 60 mph, against 7.8) but also vastly more fuel-efficient (31 mpg city/27 mpg highway, versus 18/24 mpg). $49,060

That is a good idea no doubt but imo i would not pay $50 grand for a hybrid with this system. Nether though would anyol' person looking to buy a "money saving" hybrid.

[G. David Felt]

What your co-worker is experiencing is disappointment through misleading advertising.  What Toyota and Honda are doing with their upper end hybrids is using the hybrid system in place of a supercharger. It's a way for them to get better 0-60 performance without any sacrifice in efficiency. Honda even admits to this when talking about the Accord. They are giving the customer what their cake and letting them eat it too.

[post="44944"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

True, but at Least I have to give Honda the aknowledgement that they talk about the performance gain on the accord. Toyota, just outright lies about the Highlander Hybrid and say's all is good for everyone when that is not really the picture of what they have done.

Either way, truth seems harder to get across than lies. Sad the marketing state we are in. Even with the Toyota Prius getting nailed in CA for the actual fuel consumption of only low 40's MPG does not seem to make people or the press scream louder. <_<

[sciguy_0504]

True, but at Least I have to give Honda the aknowledgement that they talk about the performance gain on the accord.  Toyota, just outright lies about the Highlander Hybrid and say's all is good for everyone when that is not really the picture of what they have done.

Either way, truth seems harder to get across than lies.  Sad the marketing state we are in.  Even with the Toyota Prius getting nailed in CA for the actual fuel consumption of only low 40's MPG does not seem to make people or the press scream louder.  <_<

[post="45148"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How does Toyota lie outright? I don't even think I've seen much marketing done for the Highlander Hybrid to see those nasty evil "lies." More power and better fuel economy over the normally aspirated Highlander seems good to me.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Not to rain on this parade ... but Toyota will release it's gen 3 hybrid system by 2008, two years ahead of schedule.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=108022

It's supposed to be about 50% cheaper than the current version, more compact, as well as providing even more power and economy.

50% cheaper ... it seems that any cost advantage GM may possess will dissapear with Toyota's new system.

Toyota's current system adds about $4000 to the cost of the vehicle ... that means the 3rd gen should only add about $2000 to the cost of a conventional gas engine ... and this system is supposed to be improved in every other way as well.

To be honest, I don't really care about GM's mild hybrid system, I'm waiting to see what the GM/DCX full hybrid "two mode" system brings to the table, and how much it will cost vs. the Toyota system.

[greg_nate]

Late??? GM has been toying with hybrids and Alternative fuels since the early 70's???? they sold info to the US military on Alternative fuels in the late 90's for there run off of every thing dirt bike.

[post="44334"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Late to market...they may have been in experimentation 30 years ago, but that doesn't matter much when you, myself and everyone else sees a Toyota moniker on 70% of the hybrids....the rest read "Honda".

In actuality, they weren't late to the party - they were absent.

I think they were prophetic in their push for fuel cell R&D, but we're still not there yet....GM has made 2010 as the date when they start rolling Hydrogen vehicles. Unfortunately, that's only 4 years away now, and the technology still isn't quite there. I am still holding out though. If GM can make it through this tough time without going bankrupt and being split up, I have a feeling the stars might just align perfectly, and GM could emerge as the clear, dominant leader in this field - at a time when we really need it too!

greg

[PurdueGuy]

I find it humorous how some are acting like the hybrid systems are all smoke & mirrors. Fact is they work. It is true that they currently don't pay themselves off financially. A few months ago during a discussion on another board, I compared buying a base Saturn Ion with buying a base Toyota Prius. The comparison was solely financial, and found that the Prius' cost (purchase + gas cost) would break even with the Ion somewhere a bit after 200K miles. Of course this doesn't calculate maintenance, which could be a deciding factor, but last I read, Toyota has yet to have to replace a Prius battery under warranty - only for repairs after an accident. For those sceptical of hybrids, this calculation is somewhat of an "I told you so", however Toyota has not been known to stop developing technology like this. Someone already said their 3rd gen (actually I think it's technically the 4th gen - the 1st gen was Japan-only) hybrid system will be cheaper. Let's say that bumps 20K miles off the break-even point. What if gas prices go up (which is bound to happen eventually). I forget what price I had calculated at, but I want to say it was long before the $3/gal. Every time the gas price goes up, miles come off that break-even point. Add on top of that the driver being able to be glad they aren't polluting as much, and the happiness of not going to the pump as often. Be careful when you want to dismiss hybrid systems as just a worthless toy...

[cmattson]

but last I read, Toyota has yet to have to replace a Prius battery under warranty

Try reading some of the Prius owner forums:

Third post in on prius online forums:
http://www.priusonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=5076

Yeah but mine died after a few hours. Parked it at school in the morning, it was dead when I came back in the afternoon.

If you follow the thread, an '01 Prius owner had to replace their battery after 42 months--which is only a half a year outside of warranty. I'd hardly be pleased with that -- would you?

How about this gem:
http://priuschat.com/forums/archive/o_t/t_...ery-issues.html

Just called my dealer. There is a recall on some of the batteries and the needed parts are on back order

I know that every manufacturer has problems -- and every model will have it's share of problems, but take a look at PriusOnline's 20+ pages in their technical forum and nearly 1200+ posts on the Priuschat's "Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting" forums. Start reading about some of the issues. If I was on-the-fence about buying the Prius; some of these posts would seriously concern me. Edited November 23, 2005 by cmattson

[PurdueGuy]

Well, that should help buy the other manufacturers time. Still, technology gets cheaper & more reliable over time... Glad to be on a forum that knows this stuff well enough to have intelligent discussion. :)

[siegen]

So the Vue Hybrid will be using a very similar or lightly modifed Accord hybrid powerplant? Even though the Accord hybrid is a performance-based hybrid system, it does bump the EX Auto V6 from 20 / 29 to 29 / 37, while increasing the performance when its needed.

GM was slow with VVT in their engines, but the final product is simple and elegant in it's function, so much so that it makes the iVTEC, VVTi and VANOS look like Rube Goldberg machines.

How is it so elegant? And how is iVTEC so complicated?

[thegriffon]

Most VVT systems use some form of continuous cam phasing, sometimes combined with a valve lift system. The cam phasing is really simple. GM uses a number of suppliers, including Aisin, who provide most of the systems for Toyota. Honda's VTEC uses multiple cam lobes, switching between two or three discrete timing and lift profiles, but they have anounced they will be switching to a continuous system like everyone else for improved efficiency. The Vue will not be getting the Honda system, but a belt alternater-starter system for engine stop-start and motor assist, paired with a 4-cylinder engine. The next gen will get AHSII with an advanced GM V6. "In the Saturn Vue Green Line, the system will be mated with GM’s state-of-the-art 2.4-liter variable valve timing (VVT) Ecotec engine and Hydra-Matic 4T45-E electronically controlled overdrive transaxle. GM engineers developed the belt alternator starter hybrid to deliver improved fuel economy by performing the following functions: * Shuts off the engine when the vehicle is brought to a stop to minimize engine idling * Restarts the engine promptly when the brake pedal is released * Enables early fuel cutoff to the engine during vehicle deceleration * Captures vehicle kinetic energy during deceleration to help charge the advanced nickel metal hydride hybrid battery (regenerative braking) * Performs intelligent battery charging by opportunistically charging when it’s most efficient The belt alternator starter hybrid also will provide an electric power assist during acceleration when needed. During a wide-open throttle or aggressive passing maneuver, the system improves vehicle launch and acceleration feel by assisting the engine to achieve maximum power." Edited November 24, 2005 by thegriffon

[siegen]

Most VVT systems use some form of continuous cam phasing, sometimes combined with a valve lift system. The cam phasing is really simple. GM uses a number of suppliers, including Aisin, who provide most of the systems for Toyota. Honda's VTEC uses multiple cam lobes, switching between two or three discrete timing and lift profiles, but they have anounced they will be switching to a continuous system like everyone else for improved efficiency.

Honda's first vtec prodution engine back in 1989, used 2 different cam profiles, and a hydraulic powered dowel pin to connect each of the two rocker arms on the intake or exhaust side per cylinder to another rocker arm between them. That rocker arm was mated to a much more aggressive cam lobe. In 2000, Honda incorperated VTC, which is the continuously variable valve timing that you're talking about. It will retard or advance either camshaft up to 50°. You still didn't answer my question though, about how GM's system is more simple or elegant than anybody elses. It sounds like it is based very much off of what everybody else already uses/used.

[cmattson]

Thought I'd tag into this existing thread to mention that Toyota has reached an agreement to supply Subaru with it's synergy hybrid system:

http://www.nni.nikkei.co.jp/AC/TNKS...125D25JFA14.htm

One might wonder how Toyota can be both:
(1) limited in meeting Prius demand because hybrid components are so scarce
and
(2) sell/supply hybrid componentry to a limited (<10% stake) partner.

I'll stand behind the idea that Toyota is still losing money on each hybrid they sell & they intentionally limit demand to curb their losses and keep hybrid demand high.