REPORT: General Motors in "intense" bankruptcy preparations

[vonVeezelsnider]

1) Nostalgia isn't part of the business dictionary. Change or die. In the case for GM, produce significant change or die.

2) All of the discussion that revolves around a declaration that GM will die if not for a plethora of brands to continue does not answer the question: "Why not?" GM has product for all markets with their three core marketable brands. ...since everyone has a different idea of what their core marketable brands are, I'll point out they are: Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. Why can they not survive with that? You can still produce the 'almighty' performance products through Chevrolet without watering down exclusivity with typical badge engineering. You can still develop product on shared platforms between three divisions that includes trucks and SUVs for their necessary markets. You can still conduct volume sales to provide necessary production flow. You can still save money by having less 'me-too' development between a mix of unnecessary brands.

QFT.

[Z-06]

Well, I can clearly see it's pointless to share an opinion here on the subject; however, two things stand out among all of this:

1) Nostalgia isn't part of the business dictionary. Change or die. In the case for GM, produce significant change or die.

2) All of the discussion that revolves around a declaration that GM will die if not for a plethora of brands to continue does not answer the question: "Why not?" GM has product for all markets with their three core marketable brands. ...since everyone has a different idea of what their core marketable brands are, I'll point out they are: Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. Why can they not survive with that? You can still produce the 'almighty' performance products through Chevrolet without watering down exclusivity with typical badge engineering. You can still develop product on shared platforms between three divisions that includes trucks and SUVs for their necessary markets. You can still conduct volume sales to provide necessary production flow. You can still save money by having less 'me-too' development between a mix of unnecessary brands.

Okay, I'll still share my opinion. Somehow I don't know how Buick even fits in here.

In ideal world you are right.

But given the HISTORY it may not be the most ideal situation. For GM, people with NOSTALGIA are still a significant amount of customers. That was proved in 2004 after big O died. Those nostalgic customers left for good. If other brands are reduced where they still entice the historic customers while the Caddy, Chevy and Buick gun for new ones, GM will be killing more than one bird as a customer. Heck as much as we hate Saturn on this forum, there are many Saturn customers who feel shafted.

Toyota has no history so they can start with three brands strategy or infinite brands strategy on a fresh page. Customers like Camino feel shafted for the years of false promises for vehicle GM had been promising, just like Toyota lovers who abandoned GM for giving them broken vehicles. Customers like Camino will not come back if they find similar performance, and satisfaction in other makes just like the Toyota lovers did when they found their reliable bland mobile.

[Croc]

Camino, with all due respect, the impression I get from your repeated replies of "it can't...it just can't because it can't" is the same impression I get from any GM lifer talking about how GM can't do this for Buick because they have to do it for Cadillac, or why GM can't do something for Pontiac because it steps on Chevrolet, or they can't give Pontiac competitive product because they just gave it all to Saturn.

When you close your mind to the possibilities that may exist beyond the comfort zone of "the way things have always been," you really limit your options. I'm just sayin'...

...and this is my last word on this.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Croc

[Intrepidation]

Please, do tell how it is impossible for Buick to be a stand alone brand with a full lineup, which if this scenario plays it is what would end up happening. Buick would get a full lineup and BPG would become Buick.

[Camino LS6]

Oh please, Croc.

You have to be joking.

No one on any side of this debate thinks things should stay the "way they have always been"

I'll add just one more bit of input to this tonight.

You don't rip up your customer list hoping that you can create a new one.

[Camino LS6]

Please, do tell how it is impossible for Buick to be a stand alone brand with a full lineup, which if this scenario plays it is what would end up happening. Buick would get a full lineup and BPG would become Buick.

Think about the implications of what you endorse - what it would take to even attempt to do it, and then get back to me.

[wildcat]

Think about the implications of what you endorse - what it would take to even attempt to do it, and then get back to me.

The same things it will take for (any portion of) GM to attempt to survive:

money

ideas

leadership

bravery

encouragement

support

luck

I hope they choose to have GM "superstores," with all brands available at all locations; a greatly-reduced number of locations, too.

Edited April 8, 2009 by wildcat

[Northstar]

What would the point of making Buick a full line brand? GM can't sustain BPG as a full line set of brands, so how is making it one brand (which GM already basically did) going to change that?

Toyota and Lexus don't have any brands between them (Scion is at or below Toyota's level). Honda and Acura don't have any brands between them. Nissan and Infiniti have no brands between them. Mercury has no real place in the Ford sales channel. It's to Ford what Pontiac is to Chevy (even moreso because Pontiac actually has two unique models in the Solstice and G8).

If anything, GM needs a brand to combat Scion as it's third brand. Not sure if any of its current brands have that image -- Saturn used to be that brand.

A lineup of Spark/Aveo in the $10-14k segment, Cruze in the $16-23k segment, Malibu $22-32k, Impala (RWD) $25-40k (same as G8), Camaro, Corvette, and perhaps a sporty 4-door and wagon based on Alpha would make for a perfect Chevy. Then you have HHR/MPV vehicle, Equinox, Traverse, Tahoe or Suburban (cut one of the two) for SUVs, Silverado and Colorado.

What mainstream segment is not covered?

Cadillac becomes an 3-Series-fighting Alpha-based vehicle, the CTS as-is (of course updated), sedan above the CTS. The new SRX is fine, Escalade should continue, though perhaps only as the regular version, possibly on Lambda. A second (or third?) try at an SL-fighter and also an SLK-fighter would be nice, as well.

There really isn't much room for Buick. What lineup would be proposed? Delta-based car, Alpha-based car, Epsilon-based car, RWD car, Theta CUV, Lambda CUV?

How does the Alpha based car fit between a Chevy Alpha-based car and the Cadillac Alpha? Where does the Theta CUV slot between the Equinox and SRX? If the Escalade goes to Lambda, how does the Enclave slot between the Traverse (which could be improved) and the new Escalade? How would the Buick RWD car above the Epsilon car fit between a RWD Impala and CTS? The only car that makes any sense is an Epsilon-based car, and if GM really, really wanted something above the Malibu, they could just send it to Cadillac. You can make the Cruze go to $25k if you want to make an argument for a "premium" small FWD car... Honda sells plenty of Civics that are $20k+, why can't Chevy do the same with the Cruze?

Essentially, the investment that GM would put into Buick would be too much considering that many of the sales could be absorbed at the other brands.

Giving Buick the LaCrosse on a stretched EPII and a SWB EPII as well (from Opel), and Pontiac the proposed Chevy Alpha and Impala (keep it as G8) would be a pretty good lineup, and neither step on the other brands' toes. However, keeping Buick so you can have an EPII or two and then a bunch of vehicles that overlap is not worth it for those two EPIIs. Giving Buick the Impala doesn't work because it would cost too similar to the CTS, same with the Alpha. Giving them to Pontiac allows the pricing to work so that overlap with the Cadillacs is very minimal. This would give them a lineup of a $20-30k small, sporty car, make the EPIIs compete directly against the TSX and TL. And then the G8 would stay in it's current range. Everything would be $43k or under, and Cadillac wouldn't have EPIIs or a RWD sedan the size of the G8 that's anywhere near the same price for the same equipment levels and engine options. Perhaps the Solstice could stick around as well to provide volume for the SLK-fighting Cadillac.

Personally, I think that is about as perfect as you can make GM. Chevy as described except with the Alpha vehicle and Impala going to Pontiac, and Buick having small-mid and large-mid offerings. Cadillac kept as described as well.

[Intrepidation]

I don't think GM needs brand to combat Scion..it's sales were stagnating and declining before the economy tanked.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Cadillac becomes an 3-Series-fighting Alpha-based vehicle, the CTS as-is (of course updated), sedan above the CTS. The new SRX is fine, Escalade should continue, though perhaps only as the regular version, possibly on Lambda.

There really isn't much room for Buick. What lineup would be proposed? Delta-based car, Alpha-based car, Epsilon-based car, RWD car, Theta CUV, Lambda CUV?

Throw in that EpII DT7 they've been planning and you've pretty much got the entire Buick lineup of the future save for Delta covered, which is why my more logical side says that they could be done without in the North American market... not that it'll stop my from buying a LaCrosse 3.8L in a few years.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Please, do tell how it is impossible for Buick to be a stand alone brand with a full lineup, which if this scenario plays it is what would end up happening. Buick would get a full lineup and BPG would become Buick.

They still wont sell, and will be gone shortly after Pontiac is.

And why does everyone think being profitable means less sales? What will happen in bankruptcy court? The govt might take on GM's pensions, GM will be able to close a lot of plants and lay off workers, and bondholders will trade debt for some equity. While GM might become profitable from that, they won't become MORE profitable by losing half a million sales.

All I know is that if GM did not have Pontiac's sales right now, they would be losing more money than they already are.

Seems to me the issue is not number of brands, but all the non-car related stuff that GM can't ever get control of. Why do companies continually make new brands, if it is so unprofitable to do so? Because minimal investment brings in a whole lot more revenue. Think of the investment Pontiac has received lately, and compare that to the billions in revenue they receive from their sales.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

All I know is that if GM did not have Pontiac's sales right now, they would be losing more money than they already are.

Sorta... if a company consistently invests in projects that give them relatively poor return on their money, their capital is tied up and they will be in worse condition when times are bad. This holds true even if ALL of their projects were profitable (just not that profitable).

Edited April 8, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[saturnd00d]

I hate to say it, but I think that after all is said and done, it's going to be Chevy and Cadillac. GM doesn't seem to have a clear vision about any of it's other brands, which leads me to think this way. Time is definitely of the essence and GM doesn't have any cash to spare at this point. If they don't have clear direction by now, I don't think they would chance anything.

Really, it's a shame what has happened to the almighty GM. They had so much potential to succeed, to stick it to the imports but in my eyes, it's too little, too late.

Buick is a historic brand, as is Pontiac in conjunction with Chevy and Caddy. GMC has very little invested into it because up to this point, they have been blatant rebadges save for a few exceptions. Profitable yes, unique? Hardly. Let's see how the release of the terrain works for them.

I'm sad to see Saturn go, as you all probably know by now, but this whole experience with GM as a whole, watching them cut and starve across the company made me realize that I don't want to spend any more of my money supporting them. I have my eyes fixed on a used Astra down the road, but as far as car purchases after that, should GM even be around, I won't consider them anymore, at least not in terms of a new car purchase. Too many other good, reliable cars out there from automakers with far less troubles.

I do wish GM all the best, and I will always keep reading the latest news on them, but supporting them is not in my future anymore. I hope those of you who will continue to support them, no matter which division(s) your heart belongs to, don't get as down and disappointed with GM as I have.

[z28luvr01]

Kill GMC, Chevy sells the same truck. Kill Pontiac, Chevy will have what you need when all is said and done. That leaves you Chevy, Buick, Cadillac - Low, medium, high brands ... Perfecto ...

Where will GM stick Buick under this scenario? Buick dealers can't stand alone if their Pontiac and GMC offerings are taken from them. What will they say to the customers who are looking for a truck/SUV/smaller car and yet have been conditioned for the last century that Chevy is the bottom rung of the GM herarchy and do not want to be associated with "bottom rung". There's a lot of people out there who think like that, so it makes sense not to ignore them. In order not to lose them, GM would have to do one of the following:

1) Move Buick in with Chevy or Caddy: Since both are full line brands, Buick isn't needed in either showroom.

2) Blow Buick out into a full line brand: Buick SUVs and minivans didn't go over well a couple of years ago, and they won't again. Also, if GM's going to expand Buick's lineup to compensate for the loss of Pontiac and GMC, why bother closing Pontiac and GMC.

All of that just to say: BPG either needs to live as one or die as one. Killing part of it only assures the death of the remaining part.

[6t5frlane]

Bankruptcy 500

And there off......Miss Mopar is leading in the first turn but The General is pulling up fast. Around turn two and The General is neck and neck. Mighty Miss Mopar is falling a bit in the home stretch. Here they come and it's gonna be close.....The General wins by a car length. What a race. Lets go up to the Bar and see what Mr Dearborn thought of it. " I think they gave their all, but The General really let us down " Will you be racing next year Mr Dearborn? Well it's too early to say but I don't think so....

[CaddyXLR-V]

Sorta... if a company consistently invests in projects that give them relatively poor return on their money, their capital is tied up and they will be in worse condition when times are bad. This holds true even if ALL of their projects were profitable (just not that profitable).

But what investment has GM put into Pontiac lately? Saturn got everything, while Pontiac got nothing. Saturn was the brand that had a poor ROI. If that same money was invested in Pontiac, there would have been a much better ROI.

[Camino LS6]

Well, I can clearly see it's pointless to share an opinion here on the subject; however, two things stand out among all of this:

1) Nostalgia isn't part of the business dictionary. Change or die. In the case for GM, produce significant change or die.

2) All of the discussion that revolves around a declaration that GM will die if not for a plethora of brands to continue does not answer the question: "Why not?" GM has product for all markets with their three core marketable brands. ...since everyone has a different idea of what their core marketable brands are, I'll point out they are: Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. Why can they not survive with that? You can still produce the 'almighty' performance products through Chevrolet without watering down exclusivity with typical badge engineering. You can still develop product on shared platforms between three divisions that includes trucks and SUVs for their necessary markets. You can still conduct volume sales to provide necessary production flow. You can still save money by having less 'me-too' development between a mix of unnecessary brands.

Okay, I'll still share my opinion. Somehow I don't know how Buick even fits in here.

Sharing an opinion is hardly pointless, but allow me to respond to your points.

1) Nostalgia isn't part of the equation, except perhaps for the naming of Buick as a core brand. It is only core in the sense of its historical value and quality ratings, certainly not its contribution to GMNA's bottom line.

2) What plethora? Three doesn't make a plethora. The three are Chevy, Cadillac, and BPG and all are required for GM to continue as a viable player in North America. I say this because there is no way that GM can retain a significant portion of the BPG sales with only the weakest link: Buick. Without those sales, GM has no chance of generating enough income to ever right this ship.

A GM composed of only Chevy, Cadillac, and Buick would be lucky to maintain a double digit marketshare.

That's a one-way trip to nowhere when you have the sort of obligations GM has.

In short, GM needs the volume currently provided by GMC and Pontiac to survive. That volume will not magically move to Chevy and Cadillac, and certainly not to a nearly invisible Buick.

Could Buick be remade into a true player?

Yes, of course it could - over time

In the meantime, It needs the showroom draw of GMC and Pontiac just to stay in the game.

BPG has major potential as a unit, but each component needs the other two to make it work.

And GM needs BPG to preserve an adequate customer base to build from.

The quick amputation of brands such as Saturn, Hummer, and Saab are beneficial in obvious ways.

But, cutting deeper in a rash fashion would be a mortal wound. If you slowly ease one of the BPG group out, it could be done. But that would take a great deal of time to do without causing GM to bleed to death. Killing the channel and saving Buick as a scrap would be suicide.

[cletus8269]

the way it used to be here in anderson was the chevy dealership and the caddy dealership were next door. down the road about 2 miles there was a pontiac buick gmc isuzu (whoa). the dealership with the chevys and caddys also owned a nissan hyundai dealership. well the BPG dealership moves closer to the interstate. there was a land deal struck for where the Chevy caddy hyundia dealership was so they sell leaving only the nissan dealership. the owner of the bpg store decides its time to get out of the business so they sell and now we got a Chevy, Caddy, Pontiac, Buick, GMC dealership under one roof. with the hyundais next door to that. and the store really makes perfect sense... its like a costco or sam's for cars hehehe

[wildcat]

. . . Buick . . . its contribution to GMNA's bottom line

GM is a global corporation, not just NA.

. . . BPG . . . all are required

Where will the money come for investment in Pontiac? What role will Pontiac have?

[Camino LS6]

GM is a global corporation, not just NA.

But NA is where the problem is. And GM isn't looking like it will be very "global" when this is all over. Any way you slice it, Buick is a bit player in NA.

Where will the money come for investment in Pontiac? What role will Pontiac have?

Those are very broad and open questions. If we assume that the announced gameplan is the one that will be used, Pontiac's role would be to provide focused niche product with a performance orientation. Pontiacs that don't fit that template would be phased out while Buick ramps up its new lineup. It would have to be a segue from Pontiac volume to Buick volume.

As for the money, it would seem that the taxpayers will be covering GM for some time.

An expanded line from Buick is only vaporware right now, so this will take time. But I like the idea of moving Buick to volume and Pontiac to niche.

It will take time and careful planning to get it right, but it could be SO right.

[wildcat]

And GM isn't looking like it will be very "global" when this is all over. Any way you slice it, Buick is a bit player in NA.

Again, you're giving opinion on the first part. And you're at odds with GM's stated intentions, to expand Buick's line-up, on the second. They've said Buick is a core NA brand.

Pontiac's role would be to provide focused niche product with a performance orientation

PC-S said Pontiac lost the "performance" claim to another brand (Chevrolet?). And PC-S also said Pontiac will be cut, it was a matter of timing. I believe he was also referring to Pontiac when he said, since Fritz Henderson's a money guy, which brand do you think he'll cut first? I believe he was referring to Pontiac.

It will take time and careful planning to get it right, but it could be SO right.

GM has already shown it doesn't care about Pontiac. They've damaged it further by saying it would be reduced to a niche player with one or two models.

Edited April 8, 2009 by wildcat

[Camino LS6]

Again, you're giving opinion on the first part. And you're at odds with GM's stated intentions, to expand Buick's line-up, on the second. They've said Buick is a core NA brand.

PC-S said Pontiac lost the "performance" claim to another brand (Chevrolet?). And PC-S also said Pontiac will be cut, it was a matter of timing. I believe he was also referring to Pontiac when he said, since Fritz Henderson's a money guy, which brand do you think he'll cut first? I believe he was referring to Pontiac.

GM has already shown it doesn't care about Pontiac. They've damaged it further by saying it would be reduced to a niche player with one or two models.

Don't rely too much on what PCS intimates, this situation is in major flux.

As for my comment on the global realities for GM, read the news. GM's grip on subsidiaries like Opel is fast slipping away. That is not mere opinion - check for yourself.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Someone should start a poll of what current Pontiac owners, or even people who plan to own a Pontiac, would buy if Pontiac was killed like GM plans to do. I'm curious to see the results.

[Camino LS6]

Someone should start a poll of what current Pontiac owners, or even people who plan to own a Pontiac, would buy if Pontiac was killed like GM plans to do. I'm curious to see the results.

Do it.

In our C&G census of members' buying intentions, Pontiac was the top GM brand.

[Camino LS6]

C&G census results from July of 2008:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...1&hl=Census

[Camino LS6]

And on the Buick side of things:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?showtopic=29974

[Camino LS6]

Caddy XLR-V's Pontiac poll:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...mp;#entry487643

[Camino LS6]

Things may be getting even worse:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...mp;#entry487657

[Daryl Z71]

Maybe I should have bought an 09 F150 instead...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

A few thoughts...

1) No one is 'out to get' Buick here... Try being a Pontiac fan if you think Buick is hated around here.

2) I have a hard time thinking GMC would not be included in the "good" category, unless 'future consideration' (i.e. trucks continuing to go lower in sales) is used as an excuse to exclude it.

3) I think Buick is also a good bet because of it's strong position in China and because something needs to bridge the gap between Chevy and Cadillac. Not to mention, what is the point of GMC existing without Buick? I also think Fritz might've tipped the cards too with his comments... FEASIBLY (meaning it's possible, but I don't think it's a good idea) Buick could become THE middle brand between Chevy and Caddy. All GMC's could be rebadged as Buicks. With the 2 possible exceptions being; 1) GM no longer is considered a global company, in which case the game is over anyway. or 2) they think that Cadillac can be cheapened to cover the ground Buick occupies (like Northstar said)

4) I have a hard time thinking GM would try and bust up the B/P/GMC dealers, since they are numerous and could be a HUGE asset in the future. Therefore, I think that Pontiac also has a good chance of coming along unless GM thinks it can sell just Buick and GMC in the middle ground and survive the dealer liability (which IS highly likely)

So here is how I think it'll shake out:

MOST LIKELY: Chevrolet-Buick-Cadillac

NEXT MOST LIKELY: Chevrolet-Cadillac

NEXT MOST LIKELY: Chevrolet-Buick/GMC-Cadillac

LEAST LIKELY: Chevrolet-Buick/Pontiac/GMC-Cadillac

I don't think Chapter 11 is a wise idea anyway... I think it will just prolong the death of GM, and make the company a zombie.

I do know 2 things though... 1) I probably will NOT buy from a post-bankruptcy GM unless the product is so compelling that it'll make me forget about the crimes against it's history that GM will have committed. 2) Chapter 7 for especially Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer (and Saab, to an extent) kind of makes me happy because I know there is at least a SMALL chance that some company might snatch the brands up and give them the luster that they've apparently been denied at GM for far too long.

(Hey, we all can dream)

[Intrepidation]

I don't think Chapter 11 is a wise idea anyway... I think it will just prolong the death of GM, and make the company a zombie.

Funny thing is I feel exactly this way if GM continues down the path its on now without filing.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

No denial.

Buick only matters in China in any measureable way, in North America it is completely moribund as a brand.

That's just fact.

Think of it this way:

In order for your hope of a re-invigorated Buick with lots of new offerings to happen, Pontiac has to slowly give up its volume to Buick. Kill Pontiac now and there will be no volume to carry Buick into this new role.

Buick needs Pontiac to get from A to B.

I'm fine with Pontiac as a niche brand within the BPG structure. In fact I see BPG as having the potential to rival Chevrolet in profitability (if not volume) if handled correctly.

This is not an issue of Buick vs. Pontiac, we are well beyond that.

Buick and Pontiac compliment each other quite nicely, but one must be niche and one must be volume. There is simply no way that the loyal buyers of either brand would move to the other- it just won't happen.

Buick needs Pontiac, and they both need GMC.

Mess with that, and all three are dead.

Couldn't agree more...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's simplicity is this notion's beauty.

That structure is all GM ever needed, and ever will need.

I love the idea that both Buick and Pontiac could feed Cadillac, one from the luxury/comfort side, and the other from the performance side, with Cadillac as the fusion of the two.

It's too good to be true though....

GM's stupidity has shown no limit, and now with the government forcing their hand (with the scalpel in it)... Well, lets just say, that's a WHOLE lot of ignorance at the helm.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I would think that Buick is safest since it is important and profitable in China, which as I recall, is the second largest market. Neither GMC nor Pontiac exist outside of North America.

I though GMC had a small global footprint, no? Not to mention, the loss of Hummer will CERTAINLY open up new markets for them (If GM is smart)

Also, for the most part you can find their products at the Chevy dealership...and the only ones you can't, the Solstice G8 could be moved or discontinued.

What Buick can I NOT find at a Chevy or Cadillac dealership again?!?!?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Hmmmm, like I said long ago, Chevy, Buick and Cadillac .... As Porky Pig says, bla, bla bla, that's all folks ...

Umm.... You also said that Zeta would die, the Camaro would be so expensive that it wouldn't sell and that Saab "had friends" that would ensure it's survival at the expense of a few core GM divisions...

We all "say sh*t"

And we're ALL right 50% of the time.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

it's really disturbing that GM may axe both saturn and pontiac, and assume they will get ANY of the young persons demographic with Chevy alone.

i got my pontiac magazine in the mail yesterday, and even now, articles and snippets about buick and GMC are invading that......as if soon to say, well, pontiac is no longer car, pontiac is no longer......

interesting story. my buddy the VW banger who finally decided to sell his beloved passat (because he got his new company car, a malibu which he likes a lot) calls me to tell me about which rentals he gets. A couple weeks ago he called me because he got a G6 GXP as a rental and he said he really loved that car too. Today he called me, said he got a regular G6, and he did not like it all. (I for one think the G6 is not bad, not great but overall still alright).

All the things that make the good car are the things that Pontiac needs to include in each car on the lot. And they can, if they commit resources to it. Its not like Pontiac needs more than 3, 4 cars.

The Cruze is nice and all, CHevy is headed in the right direction, etc. Buick appears on the uptick. But GM is committing major suicide on the younger demographic I feel. Which is why even after all this, they won't have a brand in place to cultivate new buyers in the future.

+1

This is why I feel that GM is accepting defeat... They are closing the company down (gradually, as their market dries up) and bowing out...

Then again, they've been doing this for 25 years in some respects.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Kill GMC, Chevy sells the same truck. Kill Pontiac, Chevy will have what you need when all is said and done. That leaves you Chevy, Buick, Cadillac - Low, medium, high brands ... Perfecto ...

Then when Buick fails to attract the targeted demographic, you can kill it and move cadillac down market to take up the slack.

Then when Cadillac loses all of it's (remaining) prestige and competes with Chevy on the MSRP point, you can kill it...

Then you'll have.... Oh, wait...

(Get the picture?)

[Intrepidation]

I though GMC had a small global footprint, no? Not to mention, the loss of Hummer will CERTAINLY open up new markets for them (If GM is smart)

What Buick can I NOT find at a Chevy or Cadillac dealership again?!?!?

Well, the new LaCrosse you can't find anything like it anywhere. The Enclave, you'll find it's platform maybes, but none of them look like it, are tuned like it, or as luxurious as it. The Lucerne you'll find at the Cadillac dealer, but they don't look at all alike. So that's 2/3 to 100% depending on how you want to look at it.

Meanwhile, at GMC, only the Terrain looks completely different from it's platform mate. The Sierra looks like the Silverado with a nicer front end, and the Acadia looks like the Outlook with a different front end. Also, the Sierra is the only one I would consider professional grade.

At Pontiac, you have the G8, which could easily be rebadged as a Chevy, the Solstice which is impractical, and the G6 which is mediocre. I guess the Toyota Vibe too. The G3 and G5 are full on rebadges.

That's facts.

--

Now, Ideally what you could have is GMC be professional grade and sell only the Sierra and medium duty trucks (does GM still own that? I forget), Pontiac with one or two dedicated, sporty cars along the lines of the 370Z and maybe the G8 or a high performance Delta II, and Buick fill out the rest. But that means they actually have to get the products right for the brands...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Are you talking about Buick (or Saab)? I'll buy a Buick. All the Enclave owners bought one. The new LaCrosse should stir some people to buy it. Why can't GM just consolidate Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac into a one-stop store? Good, better, best?

LOL... Yeah, because that would fly....

Don't be snide.

LOL, Wow... Condescending, as always. (If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black)

Edited April 8, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

They have to get the product right no matter under what brand scenario, or it's all moot.

[Intrepidation]

They have to get the product right no matter under what brand scenario, or it's all moot.

This is true, but the less brands they have the less chances they have of screwing up each brand's mission, and the better chances they have of getting it right.

[Camino LS6]

This is true, but the less brands they have the less chances they have of screwing up each brand's mission, and the better chances they have of getting it right.

Only if they can garner the required volume, a much harder mission when you count on Buick for that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Also, either way GM will have to come up with new models. Having 3 brands with clear goals makes it easier to design models that don't overlap and are focused.

LOL, yeah... Because Ford and Chrysler (who are in better or the same financial shape) have done it SO WELL.

I'm also pretty sure market share is the last thing on their mind. Becoming right size and being able to keep supply in check with demand, and being profitable is much more important than whoring out the most cars that compete with each other to Avis lots.

ORLY?

Is that why market share was a core component in the strategy submitted?

So what should GM do? Keep all of its brands and just continue down the path to oblivion? I think not...not if we want to see any of the company survive.

Keep the five remaining and ACTUALLY FOLLOW THROUGH WITH A PLAN FOR ONCE. We ALL know it can and will work, if only GM would commit and get 'the basics' right. But I guess that's too much to ask...

[Camino LS6]

And the whole discussion becomes moot if the Chinese buy Buick.

We'll have to look at a new scenario.

[Intrepidation]

LOL, yeah... Because Ford and Chrysler (who are in better or the same financial shape) have done it SO WELL.

Ford and Chrysler also have much less to worry about to fix themselves. 3 brands each (Ford is trying to offload Volvo, and doesn't wholly own Mazda). Fixing 3 is easier than fixing 5, especially when teh stakes are so high.

ORLY?

Is that why market share was a core component in the strategy submitted?

YA RLY!

Let's look at the facts: GM is too big as it is to be able keep supply in check with demand without resorting to lots of fleet sales and huge incentives. On top of that you've got a global market that is shrinking, and an NA market which has shrunk dramatically, and these conditions will remain for the foreseeable future. I don't see the economy rebounding in 6 months, do you?

If the company downsizes, it can always grow again as conditions improve and demand increases. It's a lot easier and more cost effective to have to grow to meet increasing demand than to have so much overcapacity in a continually shrinking market.

Keep the five remaining and ACTUALLY FOLLOW THROUGH WITH A PLAN FOR ONCE. We ALL know it can and will work, if only GM would commit and get 'the basics' right. But I guess that's too much to ask...

If they could do that than, sure, but we've seen time and time again that GM has problems following through. Actually I guess that applies for 3 brands too. f@#k.

[Intrepidation]

And the whole discussion becomes moot if the Chinese buy Buick.

We'll have to look at a new scenario.

Very true.

[Camino LS6]

Very true.

Yeah, but in any eventual arrangement, FOG's point about following through is essential.

And I would add to that being better at leveraging the resources you have (esp. architectures) for maximum ROI.

GM just plain stinks at that.

[CaddyXLR-V]

And the whole discussion becomes moot if the Chinese buy Buick.

We'll have to look at a new scenario.

New scenario, make Pontiac and GMC direct buy only. Order it online, and it gets delivered to your door once built.

[Camino LS6]

New scenario, make Pontiac and GMC direct buy only. Order it online, and it gets delivered to your door once built.

Creative.

But it would require a bankruptcy judge to set aside franchise agreements in each of the 50 states.

All of which follow different rules.

But if it were voluntary...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Creative.

But it would require a bankruptcy judge to set aside franchise agreements in each of the 50 states.

All of which follow different rules.

But if it were voluntary...

It would be preferable for me to buy a car that way. Dell was built on build to order computers, why not cars? They could have a tester at a Chevy dealership for people to test drive.

And it would essentially cut out the middleman, the dealership. All the money saved from not having to pay commission and maintaining a dealership would be profit for GM. It would be perfect if Pontiac were to be a niche brand, but isn't feasible for full line brands like Chevy.