Will you support GM if they declare bankruptcy?

[regfootball]

I only ask this question, if GM declares, only for the sole purposes of erasing their pensions debts and labor liabilities, will you ever buy a GM again? what do you think the general public will think? Will it hurt GM's long term sales to declare bankruptcy?

[regfootball]

let me add that although it may be their only tool to rid themselves of long term 'expenses', I think bankruptcy tact is very short term thinking and may do more harm to their image and product sales over the long term, than it would do good. As much as i can see why they'd do it, it might cause me to lose ll respect for them doing something so crappy and demeaning, even if the opportunity is there for the taking. Its too easy. If they declare, I do think I would support them less and maybe not even at all.

[regfootball]

i also think it would damage their resale values as well as it would harm their ability to even get the prices they are now out of them.

[regfootball]

folks would think GM could go out of business at any time afterwards, which would hurt their chances of selling cars long term. Edited November 15, 2005 by regfootball

[razoredge]

Yes, I agree. I dont think they can avoid it with the current economic policies within this country, I dont think its their fault for declaring bankruptcy when they cant make money though they certainly brought much of it on themselves. However when this happens will they still be General Motors ? No ! They will be another ghost of what was once great about America but they will no longer be America. They have already lost the respect of most American buyers, most of the buyers that are left are there because they apply to the American way of life, once GM and current American economic policies screw American citizens out of the bill of goods they were sold for their entire lives whats the point ? Those new Hyundias and Kias are looking better every day. Just a few months ago I was actually still considering possibly making my first new car purchase from GM, perhaps a Cobalt SS or G6 GTP, trade the LSS but now, no way. Its a new global economy and I should support these less fortunate global "players" because I have been convinced I should change with the times. So like all the other sheep I will follow the leader and buy cheap imported products built by cheap labor. I just wish I could bypass any and all American payroll except perhaps the customs workers, that would be the most fair and global ideal.......correct ? :P What goes around, comes around, I dont know why its just a natural phenom. Perhaps there really is a God ?

[razoredge]

folks would think GM could go out of business at any time afterwards, which would hurt their chances of selling cars long term.

[post="43386"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"Oldsmobile, backed by GM "

"Chevrolet, We'll be there" ?

tic toc, tic toc

[Ghost Dog]

I would never buy a GM vehicle again. (I'm close to this point anyway, due to Delphi.)

[bring_BUICK_back]

GM deserve to die and die hard. They have done nothing but to F**k things up. Their management is a bunch of complete idiots. As a Buick fan I would love for GM to just die. They have done nothing right since the 80's. I could only home that someone with car knowledge could come in and sweep house and bring GM back. Get rid of Saturn, Saab and Hummer. They need to concentrate on their core. Buick, Caddy, Chevy, Pontiac.

[rivieraranch]

GM deserve to die and die hard.  They have done nothing but to F**k things up. Their management is a bunch of complete idiots.  As a Buick fan I would love for GM to just die.  They have done nothing right since the 80's.  I could only home that someone with car knowledge could come in and sweep house and bring GM back.  Get rid of Saturn, Saab and Hummer.  They need to concentrate on their core.  Buick, Caddy, Chevy, Pontiac.

[post="43412"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They need to die to be reborn. Some of the most successful companies have emerged from bankruptcy; remember this would be a reorganization, not a liquidation.

[balthazar]

If General Motors decalres bankruptcy, I would certain bear no ill will towards the Corp for merely that. It is a well-established legal recourse for business restructuring that has been used in every major industry numerous times.
While short term sales may likely falter (the media will go ape-sh!t on that lil nugget), GM products have made such great strides in the last 5 years... the money bankruptcy would free up would undoubtedly build even better product, and in the long term that would pay off in greater volume.
Reg- if the outcome of bankruptcy is so bleak, how could it be "too easy"?

BTW- for those that think GM f'ed up so royally since the '80s and was at the top of the game prior to that, recall that GM was in major trouble in their first 2 decades; what with the president being ousted twice and nearly insurmountable money problems. FoMoCo ruled the American market and GM was a distant 2nd. If they had "died hard" then, none of the iconic vehicles since then would've happened.

There is greatness in GM's future, but GM has to get there for us to get behind the wheel of it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I only ask this question, if GM declares, only for the sole purposes of erasing their pensions debts and labor liabilities, will you ever buy a GM again?

ABSOLUTELY! In fact I would encourage it.

If americans want to whine about paying higher taxes then they need to learn to start supporting their own economy instead of other countries. If they would've given GM a fair shake, then this would've never happened...

Pay me now or pay me later... And I think it's just, beautiful and SWEET revenge.

There is nothing I would like more than to have import driving yuppie americans BREAKING their backs to support MY passion AGAINST their will. I could die a happy man then :D

what do you think the general public will think?  Will it hurt GM's long term sales to declare bankruptcy?

[post="43382"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Absolutely....

The public will be more anti-GM than ever. You know as well as I do that the media (Already playing up the pension deal with Delphi) will continue to do so with GM. We'll be bombarded for a good 1-2 years about how GM is the most worthless entity on earth and that we're having to pay for their worthless legacy and mistakes, and that the way to combat that, AS WELL AS create american jobs is to buy japanese.

The bankruptcy will hurt GM in the publics eyes, but the pension deal, and it's exposure/hype/formulation of fiction will be the death nell. In my opinion; these people want GM gone and GONE it will be eventually even IF they declare bankruptcy. That is, unless americans wake up to the lies they're being told and HAVE been told and WILL be told by this anti-GM, anti-Detroit, anti-midwest, anti-industry, anti-america (Call it whatever you will) faction.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

let me add that although it may be their only tool to rid themselves of long term 'expenses', I think bankruptcy tact is very short term thinking and may do more harm to their image and product sales over the long term, than it would do good.  As much as i can see why they'd do it, it might cause me to lose ll respect for them doing something so crappy and demeaning, even if the opportunity is there for the taking.  Its too easy.

If they declare, I do think I would support them less and maybe not even at all.

[post="43384"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So, you'd rather the company die?

There is no "Working it out long term" Either GM declares or a series of small miracles happen (Yeah right, it's GM. If it can go wrong it WILL go wrong) in order to keep them from declaring.

As far as I'm concerned, unless things change, they're just prolonging the inevitable and have been since '92 and DEFINATELY since '98 when GM let the union run over them and destroy Oldsmobile/cause damage that can never be repaired, yet did not act.

Those new Hyundias and Kias are looking better every day.

I'll second that... If for no other reason than to help them destroy Japan Inc, I will buy Korean if GM and Ford someday cease to exist.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM deserve to die and die hard.  They have done nothing but to F**k things up.   Their management is a bunch of complete idiots.  As a Buick fan I would love for GM to just die.  They have done nothing right since the 80's.  I could only home that someone with car knowledge could come in and sweep house and bring GM back.  Get rid of Saturn, Saab and Hummer.  They need to concentrate on their core.  Buick, Caddy, Chevy, Pontiac.

[post="43412"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Once GM completely dies, GM will NEVER return. It's just too hard to re-establish business in this country and those that want GM to die would never allow a successful ressurection in the first place.

[91z4me]

So, you'd rather the company die?

There is no "Working it out long term" Either GM declares or a series of small miracles happen (Yeah right, it's GM. If it can go wrong it WILL go wrong) in order to keep them from declaring.

As far as I'm concerned, unless things change, they're just prolonging the inevitable and have been since '92 and DEFINATELY since '98 when GM let the union run over them and destroy Oldsmobile/cause damage that can never be repaired, yet did not act.

[post="43432"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually the 80s is when GM let the Union walk all over them. How much money would GM or Ford have if the Jobs Bank was never created.

BTW I seriously doubt that GM will file within the next 20 or 30 years. Look how long it took Studibaker and AMC to go under and they were fleas compared to GM. Also look at where Mitsu is at. They have been in the crapper for what 5-6 years! And they aren't bankrupt yet.

GM needs to play hard ball come 07 with the Unions and it needs to remember 1 thing above all else: "It is ALL about the Product." If you have great product people will notice and percetption will turn. Once GM gets the public back on their side the Media will follow. Start the chant guys:

Its all about the product, its all about the product, its all about the product...

[Cory Wolfe]

Well... as long as pontiac exists at GM... I will support it as long as they're not a bunch of blatant rebadges.

[cmattson]

GM's historic "good American" policies may put it out of business. Consider if GM could fire all of it's engineers and off-shore all of the work. Now consider the idea that they build all components over in China and assemble them in Korea. They then import them and sell them at a tremendous profit. Of course, GM could incorporate off-shore, at some island nation along the way -- and retain a far larger percentage of their profits. All of those moves would be applauded by Wall Street. Their stock would soar. Would YOU support it? Would YOU be proud of it? I know I wouldn't. Yet that is what today's "global economy" is drilling into our businesses. Look at GM's negative press. Look at their stock performance. GM is solely being judged on their ability to rake in mega-profits. Through the years, GM has paid (and yes, overpaid) it's employees. Those employees have purchased houses, cars, and everyday supplies -- causing economic growth in all areas they work in. GM has been a very gracious American citizen. GM had high employment levels at a time in our history when pensions were common-place. If you worked 35 years for an employer, then the employer took care of you in your retirement. The days of a business functioning as a good American citizen are a large part of what is putting GM out of business today. Healthcare and pension costs alone are the biggest millstone around GM's neck. GM cannot swim with the companies that aren't burdened by such obligations. Our healthcare industry operates in this same "profit is king, survival of the fittest" mentality -- and it's crippling all Americans -- starting with our labor-intensive businesses first. Take a look at any high-employment/service industry: Manufacturing? Education? Airlines? All of them are crippled as a result of our inability to wrestle with healthcare's stranglehold. I consider it very sad commentary that the very thing that makes me proud and respectful of GM as a company (their American heritage and their ongoing legacy to their workers--both current and retired) are what is putting them out of business.

[sciguy_0504]

I'll second that... If for no other reason than to help them destroy Japan Inc, I will buy Korean if GM and Ford someday cease to exist.

That makes zero sense, whatsoever.

[razoredge]

GM Made in China

:unsure: Edited November 15, 2005 by razoredge

[AAS]

I am a GM enthusiast. I support the General through thick and thin. This thread is an insult to all the GM enthusiasts on this site, and in my opinion it shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. I would never think twice about purchasing anything but a GM product... like say... a Ford? :rolleyes:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Actually the 80s is when GM let the Union walk all over them.  How much money would GM or Ford have if the Jobs Bank was never created.

BTW I seriously doubt that GM will file within the next 20 or 30 years.  Look how long it took Studibaker and AMC to go under and they were fleas compared to GM.  Also look at where Mitsu is at.  They have been in the crapper for what 5-6 years!  And they aren't bankrupt yet.

GM needs to play hard ball come 07 with the Unions and it needs to remember 1 thing above all else:  "It is ALL about the Product."  If you have great product people will notice and percetption will turn.  Once GM gets the public back on their side the Media will follow.  Start the chant guys:

Its all about the product, its all about the product, its all about the product...

[post="43436"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree with every bit of that post except the Studebaker & AMC reference. The market is MUCH more competitive now and $$$ is much easier to sap. AS far as Mitsu, well they have protectionism on their side :AH-HA_wink:

GM's historic "good American" policies may put it out of business. Consider if GM could fire all of it's engineers and off-shore all of the work. Now consider the idea that they build all components over in China and assemble them in Korea. They then import them and sell them at a tremendous profit. Of course, GM could incorporate off-shore, at some island nation along the way -- and retain a far larger percentage of their profits. All of those moves would be applauded by Wall Street. Their stock would soar. Would YOU support it? Would YOU be proud of it? I know I wouldn't. Yet that is what today's "global economy" is drilling into our businesses. Look at GM's negative press. Look at their stock performance. GM is solely being judged on their ability to rake in mega-profits.

Yes I would.... america cut GM's throat and turnabout is fair play.

Through the years, GM has paid (and yes, overpaid) it's employees. Those employees have purchased houses, cars, and everyday supplies -- causing economic growth in all areas they work in. GM has been a very gracious American citizen. GM had high employment levels at a time in our history when pensions were common-place. If you worked 35 years for an employer, then the employer took care of you in your retirement. The days of a business functioning as a good American citizen are a large part of what is putting GM out of business today.

Healthcare and pension costs alone are the biggest millstone around GM's neck. GM cannot swim with the companies that aren't burdened by such obligations. Our healthcare industry operates in this same "profit is king, survival of the fittest" mentality -- and it's crippling all Americans -- starting with our labor-intensive businesses first. Take a look at any high-employment/service industry: Manufacturing? Education? Airlines? All of them are crippled as a result of our inability to wrestle with healthcare's stranglehold.

I agree 100% GM has NEVER failed america, yet they get nothing but hatred and malice and death wish kisses back. IMO, it's time for GM to do what's best for GM. Not the America that SOLD THEM OUT.

That makes zero sense, whatsoever.

How does it not make sense??? It's common knowledge that the Korean companies are begining to do to Japan Inc what Japan Inc did to Detroit.

I'll facilitate that as much as possible.

[Cremazie]

As much as I am Pro union, if GM declared bankruptcy it would be bad short term, but good in the long term for the company. They could offload all the things that keep them down. They then could be a powerhouse.

[regfootball]

i just think the press would have a huge field day with it and never let them up from the mat.

[Delta Force79]

While I have yet to buy a GM car or truck, I am still die hard GM...I will support them to then end....but as far as them going under.... look at Chrysler in the 1970's....Then came Iaccoca and The K car, and the Voyager....GM needs a halo car and not a truck....*Tahoe*....They need to rebuild one division at a time...It began early in the decade with Caddy...but they need to stop with GTO's and so forth and concentrate on what is high volume and get a Malibu on the market that beats the Japs in every way...The new Impala is a very nice car...but still a step behind the 300 and the foreign makes. GM can rebound but the higher ups either need to realize the writting's on the wall NOW and put up or shut up, pack their stuff and get the hell out.

[capriceman]

If americans want to whine about paying higher taxes then they need to learn to start supporting their own economy instead of other countries. If they would've given GM a fair shake, then this would've never happened...

[post="43431"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

THANK YOU FOG!!!!!!!!!!

You guys are so negative the media has gootten to you. Last thing GM wants to do is file chap 11.

THEY HAVE 19 BILLION IN CASH! on Hand

11 Billion form other compaines if ever needed.

AND Pensions are set for now even for non retired employees.

Also with Better products then ever there Market Share might increase.



What FOG said is true not even for auto industry but every thing in this country. you rich and poor peolpe will suffer once the Middle class is gone they pay 85% of this countries (US) TAXES.

We should be Isolationist only import materials NOT PRODUCTS. And have nothing to do with other countries. The GI's when the get back from Iraq they will have some cash Maybe buy a car and a house and boom the econmy! yes it might happen. Or do what I do Ban foregin products when I buy somthing i look for the tag USA or Canada. Reason Canada is becuase once you save the world peopl wreck The US im swiming to Canada.

I WILL SUPPORT THEM UNLESS THEY GO TO A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.
I wonder if GM was from Japan if it would sell better because you USA is bad Union is bad poeple just hate America.


O Canada O Canada :CanadaEmoticon: