GM's RWD architecture will downsize and survive

[Intrepidation]

General Motors may be lacking the cash to develop any new rear-drive platforms, but reports out of Australia suggest that the existing Zeta platform that underpins such models as the Holden Commodore and new Chevrolet Camaro will carry on for at least another decade.

GM's Australian subsidiary only finished development of the current Zeta platform a few years ago, and it's not about to flush that down the toilet. However the next Commodore, currently sold in the North American market as the Pontiac G8, is likely to downsize for the next generation, anticipated to debut in 2013 and carry on through 2020. Along with the reduced size and heft, the General could use smaller, more efficient, though still powerful engines, employing direct injection and/or turbocharging like the Cadillac and Saab variants of the V6 already used by Holden. As we've discovered with vehicles like the Pontiac G8, GTO and the new Camaro, what's good for the Australian market is, in General Motor's eyes, good for North America, so fans of rear-drive American muscle have some hope to hold onto yet, mate.

Autoblog

[Camino LS6]

Well that's about as clear as mud.

Sounds good, but...

[Robert Hall]

Hmmm...Zeta morphs into Alpha...from Z to A...?

[CaddyXLR-V]

As long as it comes over here as a Pontiac I'm all for it. Call it Torana, Tempest, G8, or G6, I don't really care. I'll take one with a turbo V6 if they can't fit a V8.

[Camino LS6]

Hmmm...Zeta morphs into Alpha...from Z to A...?

Very hard to tell from this article, the information needs major clarification.

[67impss]

Smells of 4/1/9

[cire]

I had offered the suggestion in previous posts that the next gen Commodore and Statesman could be downsized in an effort to create smaller, lighter, more fuel efficient RWD vehicles. The next gen Commodore could be downsized into a RWD midsized sedan thats about 190 inches long on the current car's 114.7 inch wheelbase; this car could be brought here as the Pontiac Grand Prix (because Pontiac needs to get rid of the ridiculous, meaningless, sterile G-numeric model designations, like yesterday). A turbocharged version of the 2.4 DI 4-cylinder could serve as the base engine and the 3.6 DI V6 could serve as the optional engine (a GXP version could be fitted with a turbocharged 3.0 DI V6). The next gen Statesman could be downsized to 197 inches on the current car's 118.5 inch wheelbase (which would make it roughly the size of the current Commodore); this car could be brought here as the Pontiac Bonneville. The 3.6 DI V6 could serve as the base engine and a turbocharged 3.0 DI V6 could serve as the optional engine (a GXP version could even be fitted with a small block V8). That would be the extent of Pontiac's future niche lineup: 2 affordable and fun to drive RWD sedans. Buick can stick with FWD as well as the Opel based products.

GM can also use this version of Zeta for the next CTS (CT5?) car series as well as a DT7 flagship sedan for Cadillac. An AWD compact car series (AT3?) could then be developed on the Theta-Epsilon (or Theta Premium) platform if Zeta can't accommodate a compact car series.

GM just needs to commit to something and make it happen. The corporation has the platforms and other raw materials available to form some coherent product strategies.

[cire]

Smells of 4/1/9

Oops! I forgot what today was...

[Camino LS6]

Oops! I forgot what today was...

The article doesn't come off that way.

If it is, then it's in very bad taste and completely un-funny.

[Intrepidation]

No it doesn't come off as an April Fool's joke. If you've read Autoblog throughout the day they've been posting actual news. Plus, there is always a giveaway to a fake...something is always amiss. This doesn't come off that way.

[Satty]

True or joke, its not very well written. I'd be inclined to believe there is something to it, its not a April Fools prank.

[hyperv6]

With GM's lack of money it may be wise to just adapt the Zeta to a smaller platform. Much of the engineering work would be done. The only things needed to be done is to scale down the car in size and weight.

If it ain't broke adapt it.

Just think of the time and money that could be saved. This could move the program up a year at the least.

The question is will shrinking the size along get the weight down to where it needs to be to replace a Alpha?

Keep in mind the Zeta also will support AWD. This is a Holden need.

[Camino LS6]

I dare not hope...

[Croc]

I think it's for real. Why else do you think PCS jumped ship to BMW? Holden won out.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Croc

[Camino LS6]

I think it's for real. Why else do you think PCS jumped ship to BMW? Holden won out.

What a beautiful thought!

[Croc]

What a beautiful thought!

Wonder if the G8 wagon will be back on, or if it will cross over to Chevrolet showrooms. Honestly, why doesn't GM replace the Impala sooner rather than later with a badge-engineered Holden Caprice? Just swap in the Chevrolet Caprice fascias and call it a day. Stylistically, it's just a natural evolution of the current Impala design vocabulary.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Croc

[Intrepidation]

Wonder if the G8 wagon will be back on, or if it will cross over to Chevrolet showrooms. Honestly, why doesn't GM replace the Impala sooner rather than later with a badge-engineered Holden Caprice? Just swap in the Chevrolet Caprice fascias and call it a day. Stylistically, it's just a natural evolution of the current Impala design vocabulary.

Because that is easy, effective, and makes logical sense. You know GM doesn't work that way.

[deftonesfan867]

I think it's for real. Why else do you think PCS jumped ship to BMW? Holden won out.

I literally just LOL'd!!!!

[Oracle of Delphi]

What a beautiful thought!

Not going to happen, GM has already said the G8 Zeta is dead in North America after this current generation, so dream on ... Not so much jumping ship as locking in my 20 year pension under GME EU rules. Now lets see if GM even survives before we go off on a pipe dream, shall we ???

[Camino LS6]

Not going to happen, GM has already said the G8 Zeta is dead in North America after this current generation, so dream on ... Not so much jumping ship as locking in my 20 year pension under GME EU rules. Now lets see if GM even survives before we go off on a pipe dream, shall we ???

It's still a beautiful thought.

Look how much better the Holden looks than the dumpy W next to it!

So obvious which path to choose.

[Robert Hall]

Wonder if the G8 wagon will be back on, or if it will cross over to Chevrolet showrooms. Honestly, why doesn't GM replace the Impala sooner rather than later with a badge-engineered Holden Caprice? Just swap in the Chevrolet Caprice fascias and call it a day. Stylistically, it's just a natural evolution of the current Impala design vocabulary.

There is just something really, really wrong in the world when some markets get a proper RWD V8 Chevy Caprice, and the US, the birthplace of the Caprice, gets stuck with an outdated FWD Impala..so wrong on so many levels..

[Oracle of Delphi]

It's still a beautiful thought.

Look how much the Holden loooks than the dumpy W next to it!

So obvious which path to choose.

With the U.S. Government running GM now, you'll be lucky if they let any division keep a V6 let alone a V8 ...

[Camino LS6]

With the U.S. Government running GM now, you'll be lucky if they let any division keep a V6 let alone a V8 ...

Well, if Holden builds it, at least it won't be so ugly!

[Z-06]

Because that is easy, effective, and makes logical sense. You know GM doesn't work that way.

Noice Aye Matey! I wish GM was that uncomplicated.

[hyperv6]

There will be no Caprice because GM needs to put the money into a smaller V6 car and not a large over weight car that will have a very limited shelf life.

GM is going to havr to shrink their cars so they need to start now as it will take them 10 years to complete the job with little money. GM is going to have to build for the future not the present. If they have one?

[Camino LS6]

There will be no Caprice because GM needs to put the money into a smaller V6 car and not a large over weight car that will have a very limited shelf life.

GM is going to havr to shrink their cars so they need to start now as it will take them 10 years to complete the job with little money. GM is going to have to build for the future not the present. If they have one?

You mean after wasting the development money on Zeta by not utilizing the architecture?

I'm sorry, but that will never make sense.

[black02]

I think it would be hilarious if Alpha turns out to be a smaller, lighter variant of Zeta. A 4 and 6 would be plenty in such a car.

[regfootball]

saw a G8 GXP in silver today zactly like the photo in the top post. HAWT. very awesome car.

[Croc]

There is nothing stopping GM from putting a turbo-4 in a large family sedan, with a 6 as an upgrade. It can be done, and while it may not be a screamer, that's not what the market generally buys, either. Most Impalas are sold without the V8, and the buyers are just fine with that.

[hyperv6]

You mean after wasting the development money on Zeta by not utilizing the architecture?

I'm sorry, but that will never make sense.

No the development money already spent would be not be wasted. Much of it will carry over to the new car.

My thought is why update a car for this country and sell it for only a couple years and then replace it with smaller car. GM need to do this right and meet the changed goverment rules so this car can live a longer life and under pin more than just two Chevys and a low volume Pontiac.

A smaller lighter RWD car would carry on with the public in a wider appeal and if gas goes back up odds are they would not rot on the dealer lots.

UInlike GM in the past do not put a car out if it is not ready for their future. A lot has changed since Zeta was started and GM had some bad timing. They just need to fix this now to live on for many more years.

I just would rather see the money put into making it a Chevy be puit in to adding years to a RWD plaform.

[Camino LS6]

GM needs to learn multi-tasking.

Zeta was late to begin with and then bungled. All of the "yes we will/no we won't" crap created lost opportunity.

Even now, it makes sense to utilize Zeta as much as possible while a downsized version is readied.

The investment required to bring us other Zeta variants is mere pittance at this point, and yet offers decent return.

Seems like just the thing a cash-strapped GM could use right now.

As someone else said, Zeta variants are the automotive equivalent of "shovel-ready" projects.

Time to offer them, I say.

[Dragon]

maybe its just my area (Toronto), but bigger RWD cars arne't very popular these days.

I almost never see G8's, new Chargers or 300's on the road. So as much as I personally would love to see more Zeta products, I just don't think it worth even the pittance it would cost to bring them over right now. Maybe in a two to three years or whenever things get better would be a better time

[Intrepidation]

Although I haven't seen many G8s, the LXs are very popular in my area.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not going to happen, GM has already said the G8 Zeta is dead in North America after this current generation

ORLY?!

I seem to remember GM stating that the fate of the G8 would be directly tied in to the fate of the Commodore... So, umm... Yeah.

[Camino LS6]

maybe its just my area (Toronto), but bigger RWD cars arne't very popular these days.

I almost never see G8's, new Chargers or 300's on the road. So as much as I personally would love to see more Zeta products, I just don't think it worth even the pittance it would cost to bring them over right now. Maybe in a two to three years or whenever things get better would be a better time

Plenty of those here, not to mention BMW,M-B, Audi....

No, it's time for GM to actually use what they have more creatively while the develop the future products they need. This has been a glaring error in the way they do things for far too long.

Everyone is tired of hearing about what they will have "soon" so using what is already available properly, is a "must do".

They need to take a Solstice/94-96 Impala SS approach and actually deliver some of the awesome potential already at their disposal.

It's a cheap, effective, way to get back on their game while they get future models ready. Not to mention helping ROI for exiisting architectures and increasing economy of scale.

It's a no-brainer.

And I don't just mean for Zeta.

Should be policy across the entire corporate lineup right now.

[67impss]

In the same vien GM could offer the Nomad/Mini type car on Solstice platform to get return out of it and make a profit. It's the right size and turbo 3 , 4 , turbo 4 in place this is a no brainer also. Parts shelf cars always make money and GM will have new green products at little cost. Just what the Dr. ordered.

[Intrepidation]

In the same vien GM could offer the Nomad/Mini type car on Solstice platform to get return out of it and make a profit. It's the right size and turbo 3 , 4 , turbo 4 in place this is a no brainer also. Parts shelf cars always make money and GM will have new green products at little cost. Just what the Dr. ordered.

There's lots of problems with this idea. For one, kappa isn't very flexible. It's also expensive. Finally, even as a Chevy it wouldn't be a high volume car relative to something like the Cruze.

[hyperv6]

Tight money and poor economy will benifit smaller cars and affordable cars.

The Korean cars are not selling well because they are the best cars on the market. They are selling because they are the best value and are affordable.

Any money GM has needs to go to the cars and the markets that are going to sell in these times. GM can not afford to have any misses at this time. The cars they need all need to be high volume and sure things.

Large RWD are nice but not the high volume kind of car that needs a lot of investment in right now.

[67impss]

There's lots of problems with this idea. For one, kappa isn't very flexible. It's also expensive. Finally, even as a Chevy it wouldn't be a high volume car relative to something like the Cruze.

I remember that Bob Lutz had said that it could be made profitably at 20 k units a year, as far as being flexible I'm not sure what you mean. It was shown as a 'vert ,coupe, sedan, wagon. What am I missing? I'm just trying to see the problem with this platform. If there are flaws Ive not herd as of yet. If its just not a pet project of any certin person or group within GM then that's what needs to change. Just looks like an under utilized platform that is in the economy car segment that most all the development money has been spent and is there for the taking.

[Intrepidation]

I remember that Bob Lutz had said that it could be made profitably at 20 k units a year, as far as being flexible I'm not sure what you mean. It was shown as a 'vert ,coupe, sedan, wagon. What am I missing? I'm just trying to see the problem with this platform. If there are flaws Ive not herd as of yet. If its just not a pet project of any certin person or group within GM then that's what needs to change. Just looks like an under utilized platform that is in the economy car segment that most all the development money has been spent and is there for the taking.

Those were concepts, not the actual platform. The platform was developed after the concepts were shown. From what I heard, its dimensions can't be easily changed. So it would be cost prohibitive, if even possible to stretch it to seat 4 for example. Having yet another 2 seat roadster won't generate a lot of sales and create even more overlap.

[z28luvr01]

ORLY?!

I seem to remember GM stating that the fate of the G8 would be directly tied in to the fate of the Commodore... So, umm... Yeah.

You're both right. But the Commodore is supposed to move to the North American Zeta in '13. Given that the livelihood of the Elizabeth plant is tied to export volume, there's noo incentive for GM not to make a G8.

[67impss]

Those were concepts, not the actual platform. The platform was developed after the concepts were shown. From what I heard, its dimensions can't be easily changed. So it would be cost prohibitive, if even possible to stretch it to seat 4 for example. Having yet another 2 seat roadster won't generate a lot of sales and create even more overlap.

No I'm not interested with yet another roadster either. I was of the the thought that the the platform was further developed, not just stillborn andleft with a single type model. This is another waste if time & money. If this is true I can see why they haven't moved further and had to develop yet another platform. Costly so costly, and with the put they paid Fiat so goes Mopar. Thanks for clarifying the matter.

[Oracle of Delphi]

ORLY?!

I seem to remember GM stating that the fate of the G8 would be directly tied in to the fate of the Commodore... So, umm... Yeah.

Let me refresh your memory ...

General Motors confirms G8 and Camaro are the last Aussie RWD models for America

Link: http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf...A25753D0016D9D3

[Camino LS6]

Let me refresh your memory ...

Link: http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf...A25753D0016D9D3

Why shouldn't we expect them to do just the opposite? They have a habit these days of not keeping to the plan.

In any case, just because GM plans to do something, certainly doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

[Camino LS6]

Tight money and poor economy will benifit smaller cars and affordable cars.

The Korean cars are not selling well because they are the best cars on the market. They are selling because they are the best value and are affordable.

Any money GM has needs to go to the cars and the markets that are going to sell in these times. GM can not afford to have any misses at this time. The cars they need all need to be high volume and sure things.

Large RWD are nice but not the high volume kind of car that needs a lot of investment in right now.

That rather misses the point that I'm making.

[daves87rs]

Wonder if the G8 wagon will be back on, or if it will cross over to Chevrolet showrooms. Honestly, why doesn't GM replace the Impala sooner rather than later with a badge-engineered Holden Caprice? Just swap in the Chevrolet Caprice fascias and call it a day. Stylistically, it's just a natural evolution of the current Impala design vocabulary.

Now that's an Impy I like!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why shouldn't we expect them to do just the opposite? They have a habit these days of not keeping to the plan.

In any case, just because GM plans to do something, certainly doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

They only do the opposite when it concerns going to RWD or your desires ...

[Intrepidation]

They only do the opposite when it concerns the customers desires.

Fixed.

And I'm not just referring to RWD.

[Camino LS6]

They only do the opposite when it concerns going to RWD or your desires ...

Too bad I don't love crappy little econo-sedans, then the world would be filled with desireable cars.

GM does tend to kill anything I'd ever want, don't they?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Too bad I don't love crappy little econo-sedans, then the world would be filled with desireable cars.

GM does tend to kill anything I'd ever want, don't they?

Yeah, I think it's you that's killing GM products, as soon as you get conformation of what you want, within 6 months GM does a 180 ...

Edited April 3, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S