YTD The G8 is outselling the Vibe

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

http://www.thegmsource.com/index.php?categ..._articleid=1086

(Can't argue with numbers)

[Robert Hall]

Cool.....Aussie RWD goodness trumps Japanese FWD generic.

[Camino LS6]

I love how this car is defying the arsenal thrown at it from all corners.

Including from within.

[z28luvr01]

I love how this car is defying the arsenal thrown at it from all corners.

Including from within.

Yep, it's like the SD455 Trans Am of the mid 70s all over again.

GM would be really stupid not to give the car a reprieve.

[ocnblu]

GR8 news! Go Tiger, Go!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

[Camino LS6]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

Be that as it may, it still matters.

[Intrepidation]

Yep, because GM is stupid as hell and would rather kill the higher selling more rrespected vehicle and continue to be a joke.

[DBeaSSt]

Yep, because GM is stupid as hell and would rather kill the higher selling more rrespected vehicle and continue to be a joke.

Sad that this is becoming routine for them too.

[Drew Dowdell]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

Considering that guy still has a job to do over at the W-body, G-body, and Lordstown production lines..... he has some catch up work to do first before turning his attention to the superior product.

[Camino LS6]

There are lessons to be learned here, yet a petulant GM refuses to heed them.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well the good die early, and the bad live forever.

[Camino LS6]

Well the good die early, and the bad live forever.

Well if the G8 is around until 2014 or 2016, as some suggest, it won't really be all that early afterall.

The real crime will be the wasted potential of Zeta - for me, the most appealing platform since the '64-'77 A bodies.

[z28luvr01]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

It's funny you say that, because I can see the Grim Reaper driving a blacked out GXP as his personal vehicle.

[Robert Hall]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

Invalid response. Is GM such a big inflexible monolith full of waste-of-space lifers that they can't change direction easily?

GM can keep mediocre W-bodies around for decades, but can't keep a new, modern platform around for more than a few years?

Edited March 20, 2009 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

Well if the G8 is around until 2014 or 2016, as some suggest, it won't really be all that early afterall.

The real crime will be the wasted potential of Zeta - for me, the most appealing platform since the '64-'77 A bodies.

Yeah, it's kind of the modern A-body...a great RWD platform with lots of potential..

[Camino LS6]

Considering that guy still has a job to do over at the W-body, G-body, and Lordstown production lines..... he has some catch up work to do first before turning his attention to the superior product.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Doesn't matter, this car has been marked by the Harbinger of Death ...

But it's replacement hasn't...

[Drew Dowdell]

(Can't argue with numbers)

I bet I know someone who can.... but he's been a bit... uh... mute lately.

[Camino LS6]

I bet I know someone who can.... but he's been a bit... uh... mute lately.

Not anymore.

[Z-06]

I bet I know someone who can.... but he's been a bit... uh... mute lately.

Is it groundhog day in Cheers and Gears Pittsburgh area?

[gm4life]

More great news.

[Cremazie]

I don't think either is tearing it up,

Pontiac G8: 4,036

Pontiac Vibe: 3,799

.... Come on!

[Satty]

WOOOO the G8 is going to sell fewer units under what it was projected to sell than the Vibe! Pontiac is the most important brand GM has!

[hyperv6]

Combine both those numbers together and they total up to pathetic.

Last year Chevy sold 100,000 HHRs alone and it was a car many said was too little too late and then we get a good Pontiac and jap rebadge and only come up with 7,000 units over two months sold.

Pontiac is lucky it is too expensive to buy out the dealer franchises as they would not even make niche status other wise.

Just sad!

[gm4life]

Combine both those numbers together and they total up to pathetic.

Last year Chevy sold 100,000 HHRs alone and it was a car many said was too little too late and then we get a good Pontiac and jap rebadge and only come up with 7,000 units over two months sold.

Pontiac is lucky it is too expensive to buy out the dealer franchises as they would not even make niche status other wise.

Just sad!

You must be one of those around here who believe's less brands means a better GM. Less brands especially B-P-G as some have suggested canning means a large customer base lost and more sales that would "default" to Toyota, another great idea. Pontiac has a very loyal fan base and with cars like the G8 and Solstice they still have "value". I have long been a fan of the new 2009.5 G6 and all its improvements as well, if a Pontiac existed with those three models I could be very happy. Your lucky GM isn't getting rid of Pontiac because that would be a HUGE mistake, mark my words, do you recall the Olds ordeal?

NOT EVERYONE WANTS A CHEVROLET! FYI.

Edited March 22, 2009 by gm4life

[Intrepidation]

You must be one of those around here who believe's less brands means a better GM. Less brands especially B-P-G as some have suggested canning means a large customer base lost and more sales that would "default" to Toyota, another great idea. Pontiac has a very loyal fan base and with cars like the G8 and Solstice they still have "value". I have long been a fan of the new 2009.5 G6 and all its improvements as well, if a Pontiac existed with those three models I could be very happy. Your lucky GM isn't getting rid of Pontiac because that would be a HUGE mistake, mark my words, do you recall the Olds ordeal?

NOT EVERYONE WANTS A CHEVROLET! FYI.

Not enough people want Chevrolet and Toyota rebadges either...which encompasses all but 2 of the lineup.

I'm willing to bet with the way things are going GM is going to phase Pontiac out over time by not giving it new product and canceling other products. The fact that the "performance" division isn't getting an Alpha car but Buick is is proof that this could very well be the case.

[Satty]

From 2007 to 2008, Pontiac sales dropped 25%. The most recent fleet fleet numbers on the web (mid-year 2008) put all Pontiac models combined at 36% fleet. SO yeah, not everyone wants a Pontiac either.

[Robert Hall]

You must be one of those around here who believe's less brands means a better GM. Less brands especially B-P-G as some have suggested canning means a large customer base ...

Considering how much market share GM has lost, they have already lost a 'large customer base'...not much left, unfortunately.

[hyperv6]

You must be one of those around here who believe's less brands means a better GM. Less brands especially B-P-G as some have suggested canning means a large customer base lost and more sales that would "default" to Toyota, another great idea. Pontiac has a very loyal fan base and with cars like the G8 and Solstice they still have "value". I have long been a fan of the new 2009.5 G6 and all its improvements as well, if a Pontiac existed with those three models I could be very happy. Your lucky GM isn't getting rid of Pontiac because that would be a HUGE mistake, mark my words, do you recall the Olds ordeal?

NOT EVERYONE WANTS A CHEVROLET! FYI.

Ahh hate to break the news but most of the people left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Look at the numbers. Also they all did not go to Toyota.

I did not want a Chevy either with two Pontiac still in my garage but I wanted a fun perfomance car with more than two seats that got good MPG for daily driving. I had to buy a Chevy.

10 Years ago I would say let invest in Pontiac and fix em up but today Pontiac is too damaged and the money needs to go to divison GM can still be save. I hope the Pontiac niche deal is not to just starve out the dealers and that once GM can get back on their feet they can rebuild Pontiac. But one only has to look at this with their brain and not their heart to know Pontiac is on life support and it is unlikley it will come off. I am more worried GM will still make it in one piece.

Chevy, Opel and Buick spun off could live on their own. Buick would be China only as would Opel Europe only. Caddy might live if absorbed by someone else.

If Pontiac had to go out on their own how long would they last? It would last shorter than Saturn.

Do I like any of this Hell no. But it is the reality and not unlike the real world of life or death. We all hate to lose someone or die ourselves but it happens.

You either move with the world or you get left behind. Pontiac got left behind and not much of a chance to catch up.

It s time for those who think market share to wise up and realize it is profits that count. You can own 50% of the market and still file chapter 11. GM needs to make a profit and do it soon. If not there is not going to be anything under the GM emblem. It will be broken up and only some of it will be left to other companies or on it's own.

THe other reality is Olds would have only made GM's problems come sooner as it was just a big bleeder. The new cars were not workng and many of those people would have left anyways. The exodus started long before they decided to shut down. Other wise it would not have shut down when they did.

THeir only mistake was not making it a niche model to keep from buing the dealers out. Hmmm sounds familier?

I did not leave Pontiac they left me a long time ago. The same goes for many of my Pontiac buddies as we have our older Pontiacs but we are driving Chevys and Cadillacs.

Edited March 22, 2009 by hyperv6

[turbo200]

how is buick a better save than pontiac. china aside, what equity does it have here making it worthy of the investment GM is going to put into it? I don't want a one line answer like Enclave proves buick still has life in them. I want credible evidence, and thorough plans and details of forecasts for the future. personally, I can see evidence both ways, which leaves it up to product execution in an important segment, and redefining the brand with better focus.....GM has proven inadequate at this.

Edited March 22, 2009 by turbo200

[CaddyXLR-V]

Ahh hate to break the news but most of the people left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Look at the numbers. Also they all did not go to Toyota.

That's irrelevant. Look at the numbers for all of GM. Buick will be under 100k soon. Pontiac was down less than the rest of GM was down last month.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

WOOOO the G8 is going to sell fewer units under what it was projected to sell than the Vibe! Pontiac is the most important brand GM has!

I always knew you were a loser, but I didn't know you were a sore loser.

Anyway. I never said anything about Pontiac being GMs most important division. I merely posted the facts.

[gm4life]

Ahh hate to break the news but most of the people left the Pontiac party a long time ago. Look at the numbers. Also they all did not go to Toyota.

I did not want a Chevy either with two Pontiac still in my garage but I wanted a fun perfomance car with more than two seats that got good MPG for daily driving. I had to buy a Chevy.

10 Years ago I would say let invest in Pontiac and fix em up but today Pontiac is too damaged and the money needs to go to divison GM can still be save. I hope the Pontiac niche deal is not to just starve out the dealers and that once GM can get back on their feet they can rebuild Pontiac. But one only has to look at this with their brain and not their heart to know Pontiac is on life support and it is unlikley it will come off. I am more worried GM will still make it in one piece.

Chevy, Opel and Buick spun off could live on their own. Buick would be China only as would Opel Europe only. Caddy might live if absorbed by someone else.

If Pontiac had to go out on their own how long would they last? It would last shorter than Saturn.

Do I like any of this Hell no. But it is the reality and not unlike the real world of life or death. We all hate to lose someone or die ourselves but it happens.

You either move with the world or you get left behind. Pontiac got left behind and not much of a chance to catch up.

It s time for those who think market share to wise up and realize it is profits that count. You can own 50% of the market and still file chapter 11. GM needs to make a profit and do it soon. If not there is not going to be anything under the GM emblem. It will be broken up and only some of it will be left to other companies or on it's own.

THe other reality is Olds would have only made GM's problems come sooner as it was just a big bleeder. The new cars were not workng and many of those people would have left anyways. The exodus started long before they decided to shut down. Other wise it would not have shut down when they did.

THeir only mistake was not making it a niche model to keep from buing the dealers out. Hmmm sounds familier?

I did not leave Pontiac they left me a long time ago. The same goes for many of my Pontiac buddies as we have our older Pontiacs but we are driving Chevys and Cadillacs.

Honestly GM cannot become Toyota, it won't work for them. Once again it will force even more people out of GM vehicles. I hate to say it, a GM without Pontiac would be a sad place. Time and time again Pontiac outsells Buick nearly two to one in the US so why would we get rid of GM's third best selling division? I hope your wrong about Pontiac's fate because a GM without a Pontiac is a huge mistake.

[gm4life]

I always knew you were a loser, but I didn't know you were a sore loser.

Anyway. I never said anything about Pontiac being GMs most important division. I merely posted the facts.

Thank you FOG. I am glad someone can just state fact around here some around here seem to miss it.

[gm4life]

how is buick a better save than pontiac. china aside, what equity does it have here making it worthy of the investment GM is going to put into it? I don't want a one line answer like Enclave proves buick still has life in them. I want credible evidence, and thorough plans and details of forecasts for the future. personally, I can see evidence both ways, which leaves it up to product execution in an important segment, and redefining the brand with better focus.....GM has proven inadequate at this.

Great point... The same could be said about the G8 and Solstice like it was just said about the Enclave.

[Satty]

I always knew you were a loser, but I didn't know you were a sore loser.

Anyway. I never said anything about Pontiac being GMs most important division. I merely posted the facts.

You did once lambast the Astra for not selling up to GM's projections. Are you willing to do the same with the G8 since its still not selling up to GM's 30k unit projections?

[Robert Hall]

Honestly GM cannot become Toyota, it won't work for them. Once again it will force even more people out of GM vehicles. I hate to say it, a GM without Pontiac would be a sad place. Time and time again Pontiac outsells Buick nearly two to one in the US so why would we get rid of GM's third best selling division? I hope your wrong about Pontiac's fate because a GM without a Pontiac is a huge mistake.

GM itself has already announced Pontiac will be marginalised into a 'niche' brand, while Buick will remain a 'core' brand, that much is fact.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Last year Chevy sold 100,000 HHRs alone and it was a car many said was too little too late and then we get a good Pontiac and jap rebadge and only come up with 7,000 units over two months sold.

Wow! Talk about an apples to oranges comparison! 1) How much of those sales were fleet 2) Even excluding the fleet sales, this market SURE AS HELL AIN'T last years market.

From 2007 to 2008, Pontiac sales dropped 25%. The most recent fleet fleet numbers on the web (mid-year 2008) put all Pontiac models combined at 36% fleet. SO yeah, not everyone wants a Pontiac either.

And on a pure NUMBERS standpoint, there never was a party for brands such as Scion and Subaru. Yet, I don't see he calls to phase them out or the scorn from people who are supposed to support their company.

I did not want a Chevy either with two Pontiac still in my garage but I wanted a fun perfomance car with more than two seats that got good MPG for daily driving. I had to buy a Chevy.

Keys words bolded. GM is at fault for the shape Pontiac is in, not the divisions fans/buyers.

10 Years ago I would say let invest in Pontiac and fix em up but today Pontiac is too damaged and the money needs to go to divison GM can still be save. I hope the Pontiac niche deal is not to just starve out the dealers and that once GM can get back on their feet they can rebuild Pontiac. But one only has to look at this with their brain and not their heart to know Pontiac is on life support and it is unlikley it will come off.

No more unlikely than GM disappearing... I'll take my chances.

Chevy, Opel and Buick spun off could live on their own. Buick would be China only as would Opel Europe only. Caddy might live if absorbed by someone else.

The ONLY GM division strong enough to 'make it on it's own' is Chevrolet.

It s time for those who think market share to wise up and realize it is profits that count. You can own 50% of the market and still file chapter 11. GM needs to make a profit and do it soon. If not there is not going to be anything under the GM emblem. It will be broken up and only some of it will be left to other companies or on it's own.

So your saying that GM doesn't need to sell volume in order to make money? That is so fundamentally flawed that it's probably exactly how GM's management feels.

how is buick a better save than pontiac. china aside, what equity does it have here making it worthy of the investment GM is going to put into it? I don't want a one line answer like Enclave proves buick still has life in them. I want credible evidence, and thorough plans and details of forecasts for the future. personally, I can see evidence both ways, which leaves it up to product execution in an important segment, and redefining the brand with better focus.....GM has proven inadequate at this.

Spot on... My bets are that the entire B/P/GMC channel is gone within 5 years.

You did once lambast the Astra for not selling up to GM's projections. Are you willing to do the same with the G8 since its still not selling up to GM's 30k unit projections?

Probably not...

The Astra had NO excuses, in fact, it was in the segmtn with the most growth. The G8 certainly has many things working against it in the market.

:shrugs:

[Satty]

The Astra was nearly 5 years old when it got here, overpriced, underequipped and unadvertised, so what exactly did it have in its favor?

The G8 is still selling under projections, even after GM threw cash on the hood, the fact that its outselling a bunch of junk (Vibe, Astra, Aura) is pretty meaningless.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The Astra was nearly 5 years old when it got here, overpriced, underequipped and unadvertised, so what exactly did it have in its favor?

The G8 is still selling under projections, even after GM threw cash on the hood, the fact that its outselling a bunch of junk (Vibe, Astra, Aura) is pretty meaningless.

Those cars qualify as GM's junk? Wow... That's a pretty gross generalization.

As for what the Astra had going for it... Umm... The best small car market in the history of car sales, you'd think, might help them move at least 50,000 units.

The case of the G8 isn't meaningless in the grand scheme of things because it illustrates what potential a supposedly "dead" GM division has when it's parent company actually does something right for once. (I just wish the same potential could've been seen in Saturn, because it was definitely there.)

My point is as old and tired as Levi jeans. Until GM learns how to manage its divisions correctly and get the product right, we will not see the company recover.

They must get the basics right before they even begin to think about selling volume and subsequent sales results. The G8 has all of the basics right. It's an excellent product that CONVEYS the right thing for the image that the brand/public promotes/perceives. That's why Saturn can't sell an Outlook and Buick won't be able to sell a sport tuned Alpha. People do NOT perceive the brand in that fashion and unless GM has TONS of marketing money, it'll be like pissing in the wind.

[gm4life]

Those cars qualify as GM's junk? Wow... That's a pretty gross generalization.

As for what the Astra had going for it... Umm... The best small car market in the history of car sales, you'd think, might help them move at least 50,000 units.

The case of the G8 isn't meaningless in the grand scheme of things because it illustrates what potential a supposedly "dead" GM division has when it's parent company actually does something right for once. (I just wish the same potential could've been seen in Saturn, because it was definitely there.)

My point is as old and tired as Levi jeans. Until GM learns how to manage its divisions correctly and get the product right, we will not see the company recover.

They must get the basics right before they even begin to think about selling volume and subsequent sales results. The G8 has all of the basics right. It's an excellent product that CONVEYS the right thing for the image that the brand/public promotes/perceives. That's why Saturn can't sell an Outlook and Buick won't be able to sell a sport tuned Alpha. People do NOT perceive the brand in that fashion and unless GM has TONS of marketing money, it'll be like pissing in the wind.

[Satty]

Your point is that its ok for some cars to fail to meet GM's expectations, but not others. The best small car market ever? Possibly, but the Astra was priced against the Cooper and Rabbit, problem is that the Astra is no Cooper and no Rabbit. And nobody knows it exists, GM never bothered advertising it. That makes it hard to sell 40,000 cars. The G8 gets some advertising, but sales didn't pick up until 11% of the MSRP was put back on the hood. Its not the runaway success you people are making it out to be.

[hyperv6]

Wow! Talk about an apples to oranges comparison! 1) How much of those sales were fleet 2) Even excluding the fleet sales, this market SURE AS HELL AIN'T last years market.

And on a pure NUMBERS standpoint, there never was a party for brands such as Scion and Subaru. Yet, I don't see he calls to phase them out or the scorn from people who are supposed to support their company.

Keys words bolded. GM is at fault for the shape Pontiac is in, not the divisions fans/buyers.

No more unlikely than GM disappearing... I'll take my chances.

The ONLY GM division strong enough to 'make it on it's own' is Chevrolet.

So your saying that GM doesn't need to sell volume in order to make money? That is so fundamentally flawed that it's probably exactly how GM's management feels.

Spot on... My bets are that the entire B/P/GMC channel is gone within 5 years.

Probably not...

The Astra had NO excuses, in fact, it was in the segmtn with the most growth. The G8 certainly has many things working against it in the market.

:shrugs:

FYI they did sell 100,000 HHrs in the last 3 years each and not as many were fleet as you think. Look around and they are everywhere. No Apples or oranges here with the HHR SS as it has more performance any Pontiac less two sold today.

Agree GM is at fault for Pontiac who else could you blaime for the last 30 years? I still bought a Chevy because that is who built the car that fit my daily needs for MPG, Fun to drive and hauling. Pontiac had nothing to offer no matter who is at fault. Point is they did not have what I wanted. Like many who no longer buy Pontiac.

The longer the market is down the better chance Pontiac will not even make Niche status.

Well Opel can make it on its own in Europe as #2 there and GM has already looked to spin it off on its own and only share platforms. Buick could close shop where and live on in China, Do you really think Buick NA is supporting them?

As for market share the Sloan system should have been remove years ago. GM had better learn to live on less share and more profit as they are not going to gain much in the future unloess a few player fall out of the market. Your never going to see 40% plus again. The name of the game is profit per unit sold.

GM has gone too long on volume and little profit. Everyone else in the industry is makeing less car and more per unit sold so why would it not work with GM? Why work twicew as hard only to make less. Only a idiot or a failing corperation would do that.

GM needs to gain back what they can but make a better profit on what they can get.

[Satty]

HHR is about 35% fleet, with numbers like that, it should be a Pontiac.

[z28luvr01]

Is anyone going to bother taking into account that the car market shrunk by 4 million in the last year? Most everything is down, so to condemn the G8 for not hitting its sales projections (which were set before the Great Recession) isn't entirely fair. Lots of cars aren't hitting sales projections, and not just at GM. The fact that the car is doing better than two small FWD cars the likes of which Pontiac will likely be stuck with in the near future, does mean something whether you like it or not.

[hyperv6]

Honestly GM cannot become Toyota, it won't work for them. Once again it will force even more people out of GM vehicles. I hate to say it, a GM without Pontiac would be a sad place. Time and time again Pontiac outsells Buick nearly two to one in the US so why would we get rid of GM's third best selling division? I hope your wrong about Pontiac's fate because a GM without a Pontiac is a huge mistake.

GM is not becoming Toyota.

In the past the market was GM and many tried to become them. THe market shifted and now Toyota, Honda, Hyundia and Nissan have become the dominate products in the world market.

No one forced anyone out of a GM cars but GM. Lack of product that the consumer wanted and the lack of quality in the past burned too many people. Todays consumer is not a loyal American buing American products. He wants the best car for the money and after getting Burned by the big three he found what he wanted in an import car. Welcome to world market 101.

You can't throw out China in this as if there was no large market for Buick there we would not just lose Pontiac but also Buick. If Pontiac had been the choice for the Royal family [or I should say Oakland in the 20's] The roles would be reversed.

Buick and Pontiac sales in the states are poor at best. The only reason Pontiac sold more as they offer more models and fleet sales have carried them this far.

GM with out Pontiac is not a mistake. One needs to ask.

How much would it cost to revamp all the Pontiac and make them a car in the true performance image. Remember GM has little money for just Chevy let alone Pontiac.

GM is down to making Ketcup soup as it is now and it is hard to make what little funds go any farther. G5 is an example of what kind of funding Pontiac had when GM has some money now they have less. What do you think your going to get.

Pontiac would need to be sold world wide. Does Pontiac have the product to make it a world brand as the rest of GM is becoming? Could would should is not going to cut it and with little money to build these cars Pontiac is DOA. Do you see any other country out their lining up to buy a G5 or 6 as they are since your not going to revamp the entire line in less than 10 years.

GM with out Pontiac is not a huge mistake. GM with out Pontiac will be a sad place.

Pontiac is like the lungs to GM and GM regrets not stopping smoking 25 years ago now that Pontiac looks tewrminal. The damage is done and they have few options or funds to fix it. The transplant of Holden and Opel product will only nuse them along till GM can either fix of finally kill it off.

[z28luvr01]

HHR is about 35% fleet, with numbers like that, it should be a Pontiac.

or a Toyota, or a Nissan, or a Hyundai....

[Robert Hall]

or a Toyota, or a Nissan, or a Hyundai....

Are Toyota's fleet numbers really that high in the US?

[Satty]

Are Toyota's fleet numbers really that high in the US?

Corolla-8%

Matrix-5%

Yaris-10%

Avalon-26%

Camry-9%

Tacoma-5%

Tundra-6%

Those are mid-year 2008 numbers, rounded up to the nearest whole.