Interesting...

[Camino LS6]

We don't need to do anything.

But we probably should tell GM what we think and what we want.

It's up to them to get it right.

And I have to disagree about setting trends, either GM finds a way to do that - or it's all over.

[hyperv6]

We don't need to do anything.

But we probably should tell GM what we think and what we want.

It's up to them to get it right.

And I have to disagree about setting trends, either GM finds a way to do that - or it's all over.

Trend are risky to create and Hyundia, Kia and all the companies in Japan have proven you don't have to be original to make money.

The last trend GM started was the Muscle car with the 64 GTO. Even then that is debated by those who like the Chrysler 300. Even though the Toronado was an early FWD GM never really capitalized on it till everyone else joind the party.

GM already builds dome of the best engines and transmissions. They are improving on original styling like the new Caddy. But they have not even copied the big trends well other than SUV's.

GM has yet to build a mini van that was ever worth a damn on the market.

Cars like the Camaro in 67 to the HHR in 06 were late but were better products of what they copied. Both sold very well once to market at over 100,000 units. GM does well building a better version of the trend they just need to get to the start of a trend sooner. They sell well when they get there but the many lost sales by the time they get there hurts.

The last thing GM needs is a Scion or Aztec trend.

As for what we want and what we think that is ok but we just need to keep it real. Too many anymore people get pipe dreams and then bicker when it does not happen. Too often reality gets in the way of a dream.

I am just say what we want needs to be on the same page as what cam be done. Dreams are cheap and reality can suck the life out of it.

[Camino LS6]

But then, so does mediocrity.

You make some good points, though.

You and I just aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

[gmcbob]

I'm happy to hear that Alpha is back on. I've always been excited about the prospect of a wee bit lighter and smaller Cadillac CTS - even if it's badged along with a Buick Riviera or something - I think it would be sweet. Oh, and not to mention a light and agile NG Camaro.

That said, I saw a black G8 GT in the parking lot at work that I couldn't stop walking over to the window to stare down upon today (I'm on the 6th floor). And much like every time I see a G8, I just can't help but think what this really cool sedan would look like styled as a Buick (okay, we all know its the Chinese Park Avenue). I think if GM wants to emulate BMW with their rear drive sedan offerings here in the USA, perhaps they should consider an Alpha Pontiac (3 Series) and keep the Zeta platform around as a Buick Park Avenue (5-7 Series) and then have the same cars over at Caddy (Alpha, Zeta, and Sigma if its still around).

[black02]

Hmmmm, didn't Lutz say the current generation of the Zeta dies in North America around 2013, never to return?

http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?showtopic=27725

That's not quite what it says. It says that there won't be any more non-Holden Zetas and that the Holden Zetas will get a refresh in 2013.

It mentions that the G8's fate will be tied to Pontiac's.

So I infer that if Pontiac is still around in 2013, it could get the updated Holden Zeta.

He really didn't say anything in that article about when the North American Zeta (aka Camaro) would end production.

If it turns out that a Chevy Alpha is shown in a 2014 autoshow, then presumably it would be ready for MY2015 at the earliest. Would GM have another hiatus for Camaro?

[black02]

Simple.

Alpha is not a natural for Buick, and it is for a Pontiac.

I don't see that as being negative toward Buick, I simply see it as using logic.

Today. But what about 2014?

It sounds like they're going to eventually move Pontiac models to either Buick or Chevy. Though I would not be surprised if GM changes their mind again and gives Pontiac another chance. I've noticed that the future of Pontiac is constantly in flux.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's not quite what it says. It says that there won't be any more non-Holden Zetas and that the Holden Zetas will get a refresh in 2013.

It mentions that the G8's fate will be tied to Pontiac's.

So I infer that if Pontiac is still around in 2013, it could get the updated Holden Zeta.

He really didn't say anything in that article about when the North American Zeta (aka Camaro) would end production.

If it turns out that a Chevy Alpha is shown in a 2014 autoshow, then presumably it would be ready for MY2015 at the earliest. Would GM have another hiatus for Camaro?

Pontiac won't be around in 2013, it will be starved of product and then closed. Buick's product line will be increased to compensate for the loss of Pontiac. This is a legal strategy to avoid lawsuits from BPG dealers once GM finally puts the bullet in the brain of Pontiac and puts it out of it's misery ... GM IS GOING TO KILL THIS BRAND, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME OR SHOULD I SAY TIMING ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac won't be around in 2013, it will be starved of product and then closed. Buick's product line will be increased to compensate for the loss of Pontiac. This is a legal strategy to avoid lawsuits from BPG dealers once GM finally puts the bullet in the brain of Pontiac and puts it out of it's misery ... GM IS GOING TO KILL THIS BRAND, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME OR SHOULD I SAY TIMING ...

I guess we'll see...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Pontiac won't be around in 2013, it will be starved of product and then closed. Buick's product line will be increased to compensate for the loss of Pontiac. This is a legal strategy to avoid lawsuits from BPG dealers once GM finally puts the bullet in the brain of Pontiac and puts it out of it's misery ... GM IS GOING TO KILL THIS BRAND, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME OR SHOULD I SAY TIMING ...

Well I hope GM goes down with it then.

[ShadowDog]

Well I hope GM goes down with it then.

Well, I'm quite certain the grand majority of GM consumers from all other divisions whom actually provide more of the revenues that keep GM operations running would be disappointed; however, I doubt any will make the connection that it was all because Pontiac faded into black. Seriously, pout much?

Edited March 20, 2009 by ShadowDog

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, I'm quite certain the grand majority of GM consumers from all other divisions whom actually provide more of the revenues that keep GM operations running would be disappointed; however, I doubt any will make the connection that it was all because Pontiac faded into black. Seriously, pout much?

Only when a brand of which I've owned 5 of is going to be killed for no reason at all when a much weaker, more damaged brand gets to live on. When management of the company can't figure out what they are doing, and cost themselves money by their on again off again, cancel a progrem after it's 75% developed antics, then decide to kill Pontiac because that's their scapegoat. Kill Zeta because someone in Europe has a problem with it, blaming it on CAFE even while the Camaro will get better gas mileage than the smaller, lighter, less powerful Malibu. Not sending Alpha to Pontiac because someone in GM is hellbent on killing it to save Buick. Why the hell do we come here if we don't care about a certain brand/company?

[G. David Felt]

Pontiac won't be around in 2013, it will be starved of product and then closed. Buick's product line will be increased to compensate for the loss of Pontiac. This is a legal strategy to avoid lawsuits from BPG dealers once GM finally puts the bullet in the brain of Pontiac and puts it out of it's misery ... GM IS GOING TO KILL THIS BRAND, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME OR SHOULD I SAY TIMING ...

Well I hope GM goes down with it then.

Personally, we will see GM go down in one form or another here in the US, but over all a much differant GM will emerge by the end of this year. Wether or not they take advantage of being able to do real change or not will be the thing to see.

IMO I think we will either see a GM that comes back much stronger and changed to survive and grow or a baster version that will limp along and die along with many other American dreams and will only be talked about in the history books as a lesson to learn of what to do and not to do in Business.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac won't be around in 2013, it will be starved of product and then closed. Buick's product line will be increased to compensate for the loss of Pontiac. This is a legal strategy to avoid lawsuits from BPG dealers once GM finally puts the bullet in the brain of Pontiac and puts it out of it's misery ... GM IS GOING TO KILL THIS BRAND, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME OR SHOULD I SAY TIMING ...

In that case, Buick and GMC will be right behind Pontiac on the trip into history.

Stupid.

[haypops]

You make some good points, though.

You and I just aren't going to see eye to eye on this one.

Trend setter but a sales looser:

The recipeient of the sales from the hard work of starting this trend is being reaped by the Dodge Jouney (not so much), Ford Edge, and the Toyota veranda. :AH-HA_wink:

[cire]

If Alpha doesn't get cancelled (and that is a very big "if"), then I think it will be used primarily for Cadillac with a couple of specialty coupes developed for Chevrolet and Buick. I think Cadillac will be the only brand that receives an entire series (sedan/coupe/wagon) from this platform.

Here's how I think the scenario will unfold (in no certain order or timeline):

* Chevrolet Camaro: The next gen Camaro will be a smaller, lighter 2+2 coupe based on the SWB (or "regular") version of the Alpha platform.

* Buick Riviera: Buick will receive a halo coupe based on the LWB (or "stretched") version of Alpha with styling influenced by the recent Riviera Concept.

* Cadillac AT3(?): Cadillac will finally get a RWD compact car series (sedan/coupe/wagon) based on SWB Alpha to take on the 3-Series and C-Class.

* Cadillac CTS: The LWB version of Alpha will eventually underpin the midsize CTS series (sedan/coupe/wagon) of cars for Cadillac.

I understand all the frustration about Pontiac, but I don't think Alpha will be extensively utilized below Cadillac. The part that I think really sucks though is that, unless Alpha is extremely flexible, the next Cadillac flagship sedan (if there is one) won't be based on a RWD platform (which would be really stupid if the brand's compact and midsize car series are based on Alpha).

Overall, I still have serious doubts that GM will follow through with Alpha. I will be very pleasantly surprised if they have the guts to prove me wrong. Since Saab is virtually separated from the corporation and Cadillac still hasn't made much of an impact on the European luxury market, I could still see GM attempting to transform Cadillac into more of an Audi competitor with products based on modified versions of the corporation's FWD platforms (like the Theta "Premium" platform). If that is the case, then the Zeta based Camaro would be a one and done deal; maybe GM will give Chevrolet an Epsilon based Monte Carlo to replace it. The Buick Riviera would simply be based on Epsilon instead of Alpha, but it probably wouldn't be very much like the recent concept car.

[black02]

Only when a brand of which I've owned 5 of is going to be killed for no reason at all when a much weaker, more damaged brand gets to live on. When management of the company can't figure out what they are doing, and cost themselves money by their on again off again, cancel a progrem after it's 75% developed antics, then decide to kill Pontiac because that's their scapegoat. Kill Zeta because someone in Europe has a problem with it, blaming it on CAFE even while the Camaro will get better gas mileage than the smaller, lighter, less powerful Malibu. Not sending Alpha to Pontiac because someone in GM is hellbent on killing it to save Buick. Why the hell do we come here if we don't care about a certain brand/company?

I've got to disagree with you here. Plenty of good reasons for killing Pontiac have been stated all over the media and in forums like these.

As far as product cancellations go, GM has this cash flow problem that you may have heard about. That's what companies do when they have cash flow problems -- cancel products that have the least return on investment.

Buick versus Pontiac? China.

I don't like that old brands that I know and love disappearing. I didn't like Oldsmobile disappearing (I own 3 Cutlasses from '70 - '71). But I can see why they're doing it. I can see reasons not to do it too, but I won't pretend to know the One Right Answer. Nor will I claim that all of GM's current problems would be avoided if Olds were still around, nor even that GM would be better off if Olds were still around. I actually claim to know none of these things, but I do claim that I understand the reasons for shutting down Olds and for gradually shutting down Pontiac.

[Intrepidation]

Trend setter but a sales looser:

The recipeient of the sales from the hard work of starting this trend is being reaped by the Dodge Jouney (not so much), Ford Edge, and the Toyota veranda. :AH-HA_wink:

It isn't really a trend setter at all. It's just a midsize wagon...5-door thing...whatever you want to call it.

It's not a CUV in the same context as the Journey or the Edge. The Venza would be close, but the difference is that the Venza is completely rebodied with a taller roof.

[ZL-1]

The part that I think really sucks though is that, unless Alpha is extremely flexible, the next Cadillac flagship sedan (if there is one) won't be based on a RWD platform (which would be really stupid if the brand's compact and midsize car series are based on Alpha).

I think there will be no larger-than-CTS (or CT5/Ct6, or whatever it's called) car... I see GM giving up on that segment altogether.

Edited March 21, 2009 by ZL-1

[Intrepidation]

I think there will be no larger-than-CTS (or CT5/Ct6, or whatever it's called) car... I see GM giving up on that segment altogether.

GM could always refresh the SLS with a more CTS styled nose and have a nice stopgap.

[FloydHendershot]

Personally, we will see GM go down in one form or another here in the US, but over all a much differant GM will emerge by the end of this year. Wether or not they take advantage of being able to do real change or not will be the thing to see.

IMO I think we will either see a GM that comes back much stronger and changed to survive and grow or a baster version that will limp along and die along with many other American dreams and will only be talked about in the history books as a lesson to learn of what to do and not to do in Business.

Wouldn't be the first time but it could be the last.

http://wiki.gmnext.com/wiki/index.php/Former_Divisions

Lasalle may be most relevant since it was Cadillac that stole their thunder, but, gee it sure ran great; just no room for it.

[ZL-1]

GM could always refresh the SLS with a more CTS styled nose and have a nice stopgap.

The issue is that selling a S-class or 7-Series based on a 5 or 10 year-old platform is a strategy that flies on brand equity alone. Cadillac lacks any brand equity to do that.

Why not let a Lambda based Escalade be Cadillac's large vehicle? Large crossovers/SUVs is a niche where Cadillac does well and even if some enthusiasts don't like the prospect of a unibody, transversely mounted engined Escalade (AWD-only, of course), I'm sure Cadillac would do it right. BMW does not have a X7 for smk to compare the Escalade with

[hyperv6]

What we need to do here is stop thinking like traditional GM owners and buyers as they are a dying breed.

Todays makret has limitations. Coupes, 2 seaters, manual transmissions, RWD, are all limited markets. So anything you do there has to be cost effective and based on a platform that supports a sedan like platform. [excepting the Vette].

We know the new CTS and other Caddy sedans will end up on the Alpha. A limited CTS coupe could carry over.

Buick could do a mid priced Lexus/accura like sedan that is different from Caddy. Buick also has other cars they will offer in FWD that may not ever be sold as a Caddy.

Chevy will for sure look at this as a Camaro replacment. The market is going more Genesis like and the new Camaro will be as fast or faster but lighter and with a smaller engine.

The question is does GM need a new Impala and will the market in Chevys range continue to support a second sedan RWD over the Malibu? Many people today are FWD fans and even put snow tires on FWD because they have lost the skill or never had the skill to drive a RWD car in the snow. Most of us here know RWD can get though anything but it itimidates many drivers today.

As for Pontiac I could see a Coupe there more than at Buick. Also a small G 6 sedan that both could be shared with Holden. The key with Pontiac someone else has to sell it elsewhere. Holden or Vaxhaul are where we need to look. Pontiac while smaller can ot use the same cars as Chevy but still needs to share the car with someone.

The big question is how many cars can they make off of this economically? Sales will never exceed the FWD lines. Your FWD will carry the load and this platform like it or not is only is only in a supporting role.

The key is no rebadges in the same market if it is a rebadge it must be out side the US market.

GM still needs to worry less on trends and more on getting the cars 100% right. Interiror are better but could still improve. Details like on the new Camaro where there is no leg room and the trunk opening is so small. Granted it is not a family car but if you make a back seat make it somewhat to the point an adult does not have to roll up into a small ball. The Camaro is not a 911 and LT Dan is not the only guy riding back there.

The same is as much as I like th Zeta if you wanted a trend GM would have been better off going to the Alpha in the first place. But hind site is 20/20 and times are changing fast.

Lets face it today most people are woosies about RWD in bad weather. Your not going to change a lot of minds so that will limit your market. You can explain all you want but there are limits to changing their minds.

People have changed, markets have changed and GM will have to change with them.

GM will be smaller and leaner at years end. IF only the auto market would pick up we would be ok. But if it continues as it is even Toyota and it's deep pockets will suffer.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I've got to disagree with you here. Plenty of good reasons for killing Pontiac have been stated all over the media and in forums like these.

As far as product cancellations go, GM has this cash flow problem that you may have heard about. That's what companies do when they have cash flow problems -- cancel products that have the least return on investment.

Buick versus Pontiac? China.

I don't like that old brands that I know and love disappearing. I didn't like Oldsmobile disappearing (I own 3 Cutlasses from '70 - '71). But I can see why they're doing it. I can see reasons not to do it too, but I won't pretend to know the One Right Answer. Nor will I claim that all of GM's current problems would be avoided if Olds were still around, nor even that GM would be better off if Olds were still around. I actually claim to know none of these things, but I do claim that I understand the reasons for shutting down Olds and for gradually shutting down Pontiac.

To get a return on your investment, there actually has to be an investment....

A new nose on a Cobalt, an old reskin of a Malibu, a reskin of a Toyota, that's hardly an investment.

[cire]

Trend setter but a sales looser:

The recipeient of the sales from the hard work of starting this trend is being reaped by the Dodge Jouney (not so much), Ford Edge, and the Toyota veranda. :AH-HA_wink:

The problem with the Malibu Maxx is that it wasn't a trend setter. It was a dorky looking 5-door based on a dorky looking sedan. It was doomed for failure from the start because GM failed to inject the product with any stylish design. If you are trying to introduce something that you are labeling as a trend setter or segment buster, you better give it a proper blend of attractiveness and edginess. The Malibu Maxx had neither trait. It was dull, bland, homely, invisible, and ultimately forgettable.

Now, a wagon based on the current Malibu might be a whole different story...

[hyperv6]

OK if you want to set trends give me one that is 100% a sure thing and will sell no lets than 150,000 -200,000 units a year. It also must be on a current or planned platform and get no less than 24 City and no less than 30 hyw. Oh and you have to keep the base price close to $20K. Even a Volt version of a Chevy Versa would go a long way to bring in people who want more veristility and a electric vehicle no one else offers. Baded on the Volt a rebody would not be hard and new Batteries in the near future would support it.

The next trend is going to be a cross of a Mini Van/SUV/Sedan. The Toyota Versa is not my cup of tea but it has everything many families and soccer moms that made cars like the Tahoe, Camry and Caravan top sellers.

The other trend is a small light affordable coupe with RWD. THe Genisis will be copied by many. They pens are already down and moving in Tokyo.

Affordable quality transportation. A lot of people shop by monthly payment. They look for the cheapest car that they like the looks and feel of. Hyundia has been doing this for the last 5 year very well. With the economy going to take a whle to recover many will turn to these cars. A Cheap Cruze but not stripped would be a good idea as the Spark will not appeal to everyone.

GM also can compete with the present models they face but they just need to make them bullet proof and better in all areas. Toyota did not get to the top with any original ideas they just earned a good rep and thrived off of it. No matter how inovative you are if your cars are crap no one is going to buy it. GM has improved but they need to do even better.

[Blake Noble]

Please, don't post anymore pictures of the Chevrolet Citation on these forums. Thank ya good sir.

[Intrepidation]

[SAmadei]

The next trend is going to be a cross of a Mini Van/SUV/Sedan.

I think it could be called the "Station Wagon". Are we going to predict the merging of a sedan and pickup truck, too?

GM won't build either because they're wussies.

[FloydHendershot]

Please, don't post anymore pictures of the Chevrolet Citation on these forums. Thank ya good sir.

I thought that was the Smartback.

[Camino LS6]

I tire of this.

Suffice it to say, that if the "prevailing wisdom" in this thread prevails, I have no more reason to care about GM.

[cire]

I tire of this.

Suffice it to say, that if the "prevailing wisdom" in this thread prevails, I have no more reason to care about GM.

Don't completely give up on GM until you see what direction they actually go in. Don't rely on what you read on these threads. Most of it is just opinion, speculation, or wishful thinking. I know the cancellation of the G8 ST is still a sore spot, but I hope it hasn't completely soured you towards GM.

[Robert Hall]

I think it could be called the "Station Wagon". Are we going to predict the merging of a sedan and pickup truck, too?

GM could take the Avalanche and replace the bed with a conventional trunk. Instant 'Caprice'..

The next trend is going to be a cross of a Mini Van/SUV/Sedan.

GM could take a Lambda like the Enclave and replace the rear cargo area w/ a conventional trunk.. Instant 'Park Avenue'..

[hyperv6]

I think it could be called the "Station Wagon". Are we going to predict the merging of a sedan and pickup truck, too?

GM won't build either because they're wussies.

It litteraly is a modern wagon but it will have Mini Van SUV cues.

Marketing will never call it a station wagon as it brings images of a LTD with wood grain tape on the side.

The Truck and Sedan have merged in the Ridge Line. Toyota and other already have versions ready if the time is right.

Ford already flinched on the light pick up as they said their owners want 7,000 towing ability when few even pull a trailer.

CAFE will force some of these to market and many will bite on it. The question will GM get there in a timely manner or will they be 4 years late and normal?

Sorry earlier in this thread mentioned the Versa I ment to say Venza. The Venza is the trend for the next 5 years and it will pick up strong when the market returns. Sorry for the error on the name but most Toyotas disinterest me as a whole so I confuse the names.

[Satty]

It'll probably be another generation before real station wagons make a comeback.

[Robert Hall]

It'll probably be another generation before real station wagons make a comeback.

As far as right now, the Ford Flex seems to be the closest domestic to a traditional station wagon...definitely not a truck, SUV, or minivan...more of a tall car.

And the Europeans still sell traditional wagons here, albeit a small niche relative to SUVs and CUVs.

Edited March 22, 2009 by moltar

[Z-06]

GM could take the Avalanche and replace the bed with a conventional trunk. Instant 'Caprice'..

GM could take a Lambda like the Enclave and replace the rear cargo area w/ a conventional trunk.. Instant 'Park Avenue'..

Did you have instant breakfast and lunch today?

[Robert Hall]

Did you have instant breakfast and lunch today?

Nah, just thinking about how GM could create new genres---CUV and truck based sedans!

[Camino LS6]

Don't completely give up on GM until you see what direction they actually go in. Don't rely on what you read on these threads. Most of it is just opinion, speculation, or wishful thinking. I know the cancellation of the G8 ST is still a sore spot, but I hope it hasn't completely soured you towards GM.

That depends on what they actually do.

The notion of a bunch of cars that are a fusion of sedan, suv, and minivan, just turns my stomach.

If that's the plan, count me out.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM could take a Lambda like the Enclave and replace the rear cargo area w/ a conventional trunk.. Instant 'Park Avenue'..

Actually... I think the rumored Chi architecture was a proposal of just that; a large car architecture consisting heavily of Lambda bits. (Think Theta-Epsilon, or what we now know as Theta Premium, except the other way)

[Lamar]

Actually... I think the rumored Chi architecture was a proposal of just that; a large car architecture consisting heavily of Lambda bits. (Think Theta-Epsilon, or what we now know as Theta Premium, except the other way)

Chi?

Tell us more.

[Robert Hall]

Chi?

Tell us more.

I recall a bit of buzz about it a couple of years ago...was supposed to replace G... now it looks like G and W will be replaced by LWB Epsy Dos.

[SAmadei]

GM could take the Avalanche and replace the bed with a conventional trunk. Instant 'Caprice'..

I suggested something like this about 8 years ago in a different forum... in order to get the GMME Caprice into this country as a "light duty truck".

Of course, the problem is that the Avalanche needs to come back down to earth a bit to become a "Instant Caprice". Putting a conventional trunk on the Avalanche would mean only Yao Ming could get his groceries out of the trunk.

One other thing I have to note it that in many cases, tall wagons _suck_ for packing. For many things, you can only pack so high. And a lot of these new generation wagons (such as the CTS wagon) have such a small cargo area, it begs the question... why bother?

Why do the modern car manufacturers think that a car needs to be the solution to everything. The new CUV, its a truck, a minivan, a wagon, a sports sedan, a dessert topping and a floor polish! You'll love it so much you'll want to buy two! Of course, it will do everything half-ass.

[Camino LS6]

Why do the modern car manufacturers think that a car needs to be the solution to everything. The new CUV, its a truck, a minivan, a wagon, a sports sedan, a dessert topping and a floor polish! You'll love it so much you'll want to buy two! Of course, it will do everything half-ass.

This is the key!

And it could have been GM's strength, only they were large enough to tailor a car to each need.

And now they've blown that advantage.

EDIT: BTW, I love the classic SNL reference.

[cire]

That depends on what they actually do.

The notion of a bunch of cars that are a fusion of sedan, suv, and minivan, just turns my stomach.

If that's the plan, count me out.

If you are referring to these ridiculous new "segment busters", then I agree to a certain extent. BMW seems to be the most obsessed with this new automotive phenomenon; instead of looking inventive, they just look ridiculous. I don't think GM has been too "over-the-top" in regards to this practice; in fact, they seem to have a lot of trouble committing to much of anything (which seems to be a major source of frustration with many people on this forum, including myself).

Edited March 23, 2009 by cire

[vonVeezelsnider]

GM could always refresh the SLS with a more CTS styled nose and have a nice stopgap.

Um... Yeah. Why they don't sell this here instead of the DTS I don't understand- it would cut costs and its got some luxury goods you can't get on the DTS.

[gm4life]

Um... Yeah. Why they don't sell this here instead of the DTS I don't understand- it would cut costs and its got some luxury goods you can't get on the DTS.

I would love them to sell that here too, shame I'll never be able to afford one, and that would be in addition to the STS and DTS.

[black02]

Um... Yeah. Why they don't sell this here instead of the DTS I don't understand- it would cut costs and its got some luxury goods you can't get on the DTS.

Rumor (speculation?) has it that the side impact performance is not up to U.S. luxury market standards.

[Camino LS6]

If you are referring to these ridiculous new "segment busters", then I agree to a certain extent. BMW seems to be the most obsessed with this new automotive phenomenon; instead of looking inventive, they just look ridiculous. I don't think GM has been too "over-the-top" in regards to this practice; in fact, they seem to have a lot of trouble committing to much of anything (which seems to be a major source of frustration with many people on this forum, including myself).

Yes, its the shapeless blob syndrome.

Amen to the commitment comment!