A Rare Pontiac Indeed

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pic says it all ...

Edited March 15, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[balthazar]

This is not a "rare Pontiac", it's a regular production Pontiac that's been modified- one of thousands & thousands & thousands in that category.

BTW- there was at least 1 other aircraft-assist modified Pontiac; I have a clipping of a '69 Catalina 4-dr hardtop with a rack on the roof so a Piper J-3 can land on it.

GM has a huge, uncollected assocation with aircraft...

[hyperv6]

NASA used Pontiacs as chase cars for landings and even towed mock ups of some projects before droppinh them like the one shown here. I had read about this car a while back.

Present day the Air Force uses Z28's to chase U2 planes upon landing and in the past had 421 Catalina's for the same duity. The U2 pilots can not see the ground and need the following car to call out the distance.

Even the SR71 engines had blowers to spool them up to ignite them run by 454 Chevys.

GM has played many parts in our aircraft and space progams.

[Oracle of Delphi]

This is not a "rare Pontiac", it's a regular production Pontiac that's been modified- one of thousands & thousands & thousands in that category.

BTW- there was at least 1 other aircraft-assist modified Pontiac; I have a clipping of a '69 Catalina 4-dr hardtop with a rack on the roof so a Piper J-3 can land on it.

GM has a huge, uncollected assocation with aircraft...

What I meant by rare was that most people don't see these modified Pontiacs, or how the Government used them ...

Edited March 15, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[gm4life]

Well they were good cars.

[longtooth]

GM's Fisher Body Plant in Trenton, NJ became part of Eastern Aircraft during World War II.

There they built the Grumman TBM Avenger. (torpedo bomber)

President George H W Bush flew one during his Naval Service.

Easy enough to Google should anyone be interested in finding out more about this.

I met many people, when I first started working there in 1976, that worked on GM's airplanes during WWII. Additionally, hung about the offices throughout the plant were photographs of that era showing the planes in various stages of their assembly. I think that President Truman visited the plant in his capacity as then-Vice President sometime in '44. (before my time of course)

Salt-of-the-earth types that did their part to insure victory during that struggle.

My Committee-Woman when I first was hired was, as I believe, the first woman laborer hired by GM in one of their Eastern hardware plants. The plant being built in 1938.

[balthazar]

>>"Even the SR71 engines had blowers to spool them up to ignite them run by 454 Chevys."<<

And earlier, in the '60s, the SR-71 'start carts' were powered by twin Buick 401s, then Buicks 425s.

[Robert Hall]

IIRC, one of the major car mags had an article on the chase plane Pontiacs sometime in the last decade or so. Pretty cool.

[hyperv6]

IIRC, one of the major car mags had an article on the chase plane Pontiacs sometime in the last decade or so. Pretty cool.

I think I have it in one of my Pontiac magazines I have.

[hyperv6]

>>"Even the SR71 engines had blowers to spool them up to ignite them run by 454 Chevys."<<

And earlier, in the '60s, the SR-71 'start carts' were powered by twin Buick 401s, then Buicks 425s.

I think I remember reading about the Buick start cars in a story on the YF-12A.

The Pontiac tow car was in a Air and Space Smithonian story too a few years back.

Edited March 15, 2009 by hyperv6

[cletus8269]

IIRC, one of the major car mags had an article on the chase plane Pontiacs sometime in the last decade or so. Pretty cool.

i would venture to say that it was hemmings muscle machines or maybe muscle car review that would have had that in there because i remember reading about that very same car that nasa used with the U2's and all. white 63 pontiac with a 421.

at any rate here is a photo with a write up of the car from nasa

[hyperv6]

If I recall the other story I read had Mickey Thompson also was involved in the building of this car in some way.

[balthazar]

389 / 421 was a damned strong engine. PMD knew how to build 'em, no doubt.

[Blake Noble]

You don't see Cadillac Cimarrons or Chevrolet Corsicas doing this.

[Robert Hall]

This thread reminded me of the Air Force chase Mustangs they used with the U-2...there was an article in one of the mags about this restored '88..

Chase Mustang

An abcnews.com article said they first used Chevy El Caminos....and now "..Most of the cars are either Pontiac GTOs or Chevrolet Cameros [sic]— the Air Force buys American. " Surprising, no Priuses?

Edited March 16, 2009 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

>>"Even the SR71 engines had blowers to spool them up to ignite them run by 454 Chevys."<<

And earlier, in the '60s, the SR-71 'start carts' were powered by twin Buick 401s, then Buicks 425s.

Wow... I had no idea.

So damn cool.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You don't see Cadillac Cimarrons or Chevrolet Corsicas doing this.

I don't see Firebirds or Cutlasses doing it either ...

[Cory Wolfe]

I've heard Millenias can conquer the task.

[SAmadei]

I was thinking this was more of a rare Pontiac...

[Camino LS6]

They used big block El Camino SSs in Vietnam for this duty. The bed provided an ideal platform.

[Blake Noble]

I don't see Firebirds or Cutlasses doing it either ...

A joke: learn the definition.

[Oracle of Delphi]

A joke: learn the definition.

Sarcasm: learn the definition.

[balthazar]

>>"Sarcasm: learn the definition."<<

Doofus: be the definition.

[Oracle of Delphi]

>>"Sarcasm: learn the definition."<<

Doofus: be the definition.

>> << <-------- Don't know how to do a proper quote?

[cletus8269]

<superfriends narator vocie>

meanwhile back on topic

<superfriends narator voice>

here is a rare pontiac that i have been reading about in my new issue of hemmings muscle machines.

the 1970/71 pontiac gt-37.

knowledge is power!

[Oracle of Delphi]

The T-37 replaced the Pontiac Custom-S in 1970.

[ocnblu]

Along similar lines, your wife is looking for a T-37. What do you think that means? Is a replacement in the works?

[hyperv6]

Poor mans GTO!

I know a couple people with these and they are nice.

[SAmadei]

The T-37 replaced the Pontiac Custom-S in 1970.

Frigging GM and renaming everything with alphanumerics! Now their going back in time and renaming classics. What's next? Renaming the Cutlass a F-85?!? ;-)

While I wouldn't argue that the Custom-S was replaced by the various T-37/GT-37 models, the T-37 specifically replaced the Tempest. Most T-37s I have ever seen were _real_ strippers. Sure you could likely get one optioned up to a Custom-S level, but the GT-37 was more on par with a Custom-S.

[cletus8269]

While I wouldn't argue that the Custom-S was replaced by the various T-37/GT-37 models, the T-37 specifically replaced the Tempest. Most T-37s I have ever seen were _real_ strippers. Sure you could likely get one optioned up to a Custom-S level, but the GT-37 was more on par with a Custom-S.

that one link i posted said you could get a gt-37 with a 455. that is a about as sleeper as an l-79 nova. thats awesome.

[Robert Hall]

that one link i posted said you could get a gt-37 with a 455. that is a about as sleeper as an l-79 nova. thats awesome.

I remember an article in either in Muscle Car Review or Hemmings Muscle Cars, of a reddish-bronze '71 2dr sedan, steel wheels w/ dog dish hubcaps, very basic...a T-37 with a 455. Pretty cool...

I've seen pics of GT-37 hardtops w/ Judge-like stripes and Rally wheels..looking very much like a GTO except for the front clip.

[Camino LS6]

When I was a kid, a neighbor had a loaded one. I seem to remember that it had fender skirts.

[hyperv6]

Kanifel Pontiac did a special T-37 that was called a Magnum.

I do not know of any originals left but one in town here that is a clone.

Kanifel was the home of Tin Indian race team and drivers like Arlen Vanke, Doc Dixson and Arnie Bestwick. They made the Magnum out of a T-37 and it was there econo Bobcat like car. Light and fast.

[Robert Hall]

When I was a kid, a neighbor had a loaded one. I seem to remember that it had fender skirts.

When I was kid, a neighbor had a green w/ green top '71-72 Luxury Le Mans 4dr ht with the fender skirts, whitewall tires, Pontiac Rally II mags..interesting looking car.

[balthazar]

To clarify~

1969 ::

Tempest, series 233

Tempest Custom S, series 235

Tempest LeMans, series 237

GTO, series 242

1970 ::

Tempest, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

Midyear '70, Pontiac added the Tempest T-37 and GT-37, a sub-set of the series 233 Tempest. There is no coding difference (Tempest 2-dr hdtp: 23337, Tempest T-37 2-dr hdtp: 23337)

T-37 was a cut-price version of the Tempest ($2683 vs. $2750).

Curiously (according to my source at least) the T-37 was only available as a 2-dr hardtop, while the GT-37 was available as both a 2-dr hdtp & a 2-dr sedan.

I believe just about all engine options were available thruout the Tempest lines, the exception being the GTO of course (no 6-bangers there).

1971 ::

T-37, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

In '71, the GT-37 was advertised as 'The GTO for Kids Under 30", had stripes, trim ring-less Rallye IIs, HD 3-spd floor shift manual & duals. Production for 70.5 and 71 GT-37s combined was 5,802. GT-37 was an option package.

Edited March 18, 2009 by balthazar

[Oracle of Delphi]

I still have the original window sticker for my car, nothing like the ones today. My car was built in Baltimore in December of 1968 and shipped to Jim Harrell Pontiac, 3800 W Hillsborough Ave, Tampa, FL 33614. It arrived in Tampa Christmas week of that year. It was sold in February of 1969.

[cletus8269]

To clarify~

1969 ::

Tempest, series 233

Tempest Custom S, series 235

Tempest LeMans, series 237

GTO, series 242

1970 ::

Tempest, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

Midyear '70, Pontiac added the Tempest T-37 and GT-37, a sub-set of the series 233 Tempest. There is no coding difference (Tempest 2-dr hdtp: 23337, Tempest T-37 2-dr hdtp: 23337)

T-37 was a cut-price version of the Tempest ($2683 vs. $2750).

Curiously (according to my source at least) the T-37 was only available as a 2-dr hardtop, while the GT-37 was available as both a 2-dr hdtp & a 2-dr sedan.

I believe just about all engine options were available thruout the Tempest lines, the exception being the GTO of course (no 6-bangers there).

1971 ::

T-37, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

In '71, the GT-37 was advertised as 'The GTO for Kids Under 30", had stripes, trim ring-less Rallye IIs, HD 3-spd floor shift manual & duals. Production for 70.5 and 71 GT-37s combined was 5,802. GT-37 was an option package.

what brought my attention to this was a buyers guide in this months hemmings muscle machines. is that where you got your info? i'll post their numbers and breakdowns later on.

[cletus8269]

also to add to the list.

1978 Macho Trans Am

1986 pontiac 2+2

[SAmadei]

I still have the original window sticker for my car, nothing like the ones today. My car was built in Baltimore in December of 1968 and shipped to Jim Harrell Pontiac, 3800 W Hillsborough Ave, Tampa, FL 33614. It arrived in Tampa Christmas week of that year. It was sold in February of 1969.

Did you ever look for a build sheet? I found a partial build sheet in my '70 Tempest under the front seat... along with a second build sheet from a second car. I've never dropped the gas tank to see if a proper build sheet was there... the partial I have is sufficient to detail my handful of options.

Mine was build in Baltimore as well, and I'm annoyed I put off visiting the factory now that I learned it has been demolished. :-(

[Oracle of Delphi]

Did you ever look for a build sheet? I found a partial build sheet in my '70 Tempest under the front seat... along with a second build sheet from a second car. I've never dropped the gas tank to see if a proper build sheet was there... the partial I have is sufficient to detail my handful of options.

Mine was build in Baltimore as well, and I'm annoyed I put off visiting the factory now that I learned it has been demolished. :-(

I have the build sheet as well. As for the Baltimore plant, that plant was old, so old in fact that the 2nd floor had wooden floors, so when a van (Astro or Safari) would come around on the old conveyors the whole floor would vibrate up and down, and you would have the feeling as if you were floating ...

[cletus8269]

To clarify~

1969 ::

Tempest, series 233

Tempest Custom S, series 235

Tempest LeMans, series 237

GTO, series 242

1970 ::

Tempest, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

Midyear '70, Pontiac added the Tempest T-37 and GT-37, a sub-set of the series 233 Tempest. There is no coding difference (Tempest 2-dr hdtp: 23337, Tempest T-37 2-dr hdtp: 23337)

T-37 was a cut-price version of the Tempest ($2683 vs. $2750).

Curiously (according to my source at least) the T-37 was only available as a 2-dr hardtop, while the GT-37 was available as both a 2-dr hdtp & a 2-dr sedan.

I believe just about all engine options were available thruout the Tempest lines, the exception being the GTO of course (no 6-bangers there).

1971 ::

T-37, series 233

LeMans, series 235

LeMans Sport, series 237

GTO, series 242

In '71, the GT-37 was advertised as 'The GTO for Kids Under 30", had stripes, trim ring-less Rallye IIs, HD 3-spd floor shift manual & duals. Production for 70.5 and 71 GT-37s combined was 5,802. GT-37 was an option package.

in the hemmings they quote some numbers from the book by Eric White called The GTO association of america's pontiac gto/gt-37 illustrated identification guide.

according to the book there is no breakdown in numbers for the engine codes for 1970 but in 71 there were 5,802 gt-37's produced. 5,015 of them came with the 350 L30 motor, 572 had the L78 (400-4bbl), 146 with the L65 (400-2bbl), 54 had the LS5 which for pontiac was a 455-4bbl rated at 335hp and 480 ft/lbs (this used the 197 heads.), and only a scant 15 slipped out with the L75 which was a 455-4bbl that made 325hp and 455ft/lbs of torque (used the number 66 heads.).

something interesting about the car was the fact it had mandatory bench seats. there were 3 different steering wheels being the custom cushion, custom sports, and the formula. the most interesting thing about it though was that according to john sawruk, there was nearly no sound deadeing in the car which resulted in 120lbs of weight reduction.

total production for 1970 came in at 1419 units.

power plants:

L30 350-2bbl 255hp/355tq #11 heads

L65 400-2bbl 265hp/397tq #11 heads

L78 400-4bbl 330hp/445tq #16 heads automatic

L78 400-4bbl 345hp/430tq #12 heads manual (dual snorkel air cleaner)

transmissions were dictated by engine choice.

M13 3 sp floor

m20, 21, and 22 4sp

and the th350 and 400 for automatic.

rear end.

2.56,2.78,3.07,3.08,3.23,3.31,3.55,3.90, and 4.33

varied depending on engine and transmission as well.

could also get the saf-t-track limited slip.

i'll come back and do the 71 in a few cause i have to go back to work now.

[balthazar]

>>"1970 came in at 1419 units"<<

This is GT-37s only, correct ?

Cool info- will have to make note of it. My source (Standard Catalog of American Cars) is already speckled with penned-in corrections, so the incorrect attribution of '5802' for both years doesn't surprise me.

Edited March 18, 2009 by balthazar

[hyperv6]

I have the build sheet as well. As for the Baltimore plant, that plant was old, so old in fact that the 2nd floor had wooden floors, so when a van (Astro or Safari) would come around on the old conveyors the whole floor would vibrate up and down, and you would have the feeling as if you were floating ...

My 1968 Chevelle SS and my Dads 1968 Chevelle Concours were built the first week of production of the 68 production. My SS had the SS emblems for the front market lights that said SS

396 now rare today and the Concours was the top line hard top sedan that is rarely seen today.

The funny thing is we owned the cars years apart and the original owner of the SS told me it was the first Chevelle sold at Jack Sommer Chevy and I looked at my dads paperwork on his and his was sold 2 days before. I expect they even went the same dealer on the same truck.

[Camino LS6]

My 1968 Chevelle SS and my Dads 1968 Chevelle Concours were built the first week of production of the 68 production. My SS had the SS emblems for the front market lights that said SS

396 now rare today and the Concours was the top line hard top sedan that is rarely seen today.

The funny thing is we owned the cars years apart and the original owner of the SS told me it was the first Chevelle sold at Jack Sommer Chevy and I looked at my dads paperwork on his and his was sold 2 days before. I expect they even went the same dealer on the same truck.

Very cool bit of history on the two cars.

[cletus8269]

>>"1970 came in at 1419 units"<<

This is GT-37s only, correct ?

Cool info- will have to make note of it. My source (Standard Catalog of American Cars) is already speckled with penned-in corrections, so the incorrect attribution of '5802' for both years doesn't surprise me.

that is correct.

[cletus8269]

total production for 1970 came in at 1419 units.

power plants:

L30 350-2bbl 255hp/355tq #11 heads

L65 400-2bbl 265hp/397tq #11 heads

L78 400-4bbl 330hp/445tq #16 heads automatic

L78 400-4bbl 345hp/430tq #12 heads manual (dual snorkel air cleaner)

transmissions were dictated by engine choice.

M13 3 sp floor- not available for the L65

4sp

m20-any but the L65

M21- L78 only

m22

TH350(M38) and TH400(M40) All engines

rear end.

2.56,2.78,3.07,3.08,3.23,3.31,3.55,3.90, and 4.33

varied depending on engine and transmission as well.

could also get the saf-t-track limited slip.

1971

engines

L30 350-2bbl 250hp/285tq #94 heads

L65 400-2bbl 265hp/400tq #99 heads

L78 400-4bbl 300hp/400tq #96 heads

L75 455-4bbl 325hp/455tq #66 heads

LS5 455-4bbl 335hp/480tq #197 heads

All output ratings Net as opposed to gross from 70 of course.

transmissions

m31- L30, L78, and LS5

M20- only for the L30 and L78

M22- L78 or LS5

TH350(M38)- only with L30

TH400(M40)- L65, L75, L78, and LS5

[Camino LS6]

Great to see so much detailed info on a somewhat obscure model!

Nice job guys.

[cletus8269]

all my stuff is from this months HMM buyers guide.

here is a list of the cars they have had in there for the past 4 yrs or so

http://www.hemmings.com/editorial/MUS_index.html

last months issue (cant read full text unless you subscribe)

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2009/03/01

here is an issue you can browse through since it was last year.

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2008/12/01

if you dont get this mag you should. its very broad. there have been numerous AMC's including 360 hornets, amx, rebel machines, Alabama highwy patrol javelins, police cars, studes, everything is well represented here. even new cars when justified.

you should check it out camino. plus they have 2 sister publications

http://www.hemmings.com/subscribe/current_...publication=HCC

http://www.hemmings.com/subscribe/current_...publication=HSX

[Camino LS6]

My Dad used to get it and I have some of the old issues - good stuff in there.

Subscriptions are not in the current budget, but I'd buy this one if they were.

[Robert Hall]

I like the Hemmings mags...I currently subscribe to Hemmings Classic Cars and Muscle Machines..these along with Muscle Car Review and Collectible Automobile are the old car mags I subscribe to currently (also get 3 new car mags--Automobile, Car & Driver, Road & Track).