HARDTOPS you might not remember

[balthazar]

Safety has been on the minds of maufacturers since pretty much the beginning.

For example- electric starters came about when someone was killed via kickback

attempting to crank-start their car. This was 1912. 100s & 100s & 100s of design

improvements ever since.

Ignoring these is like saying no one cared about TV picture quality until HD.

[Robert Hall]

Safety has been on the minds of maufacturers since pretty much the beginning.

For example- electric starters came about when someone was killed via kickback

attempting to crank-start their car. This was 1912. 100s & 100s & 100s of design

improvements ever since.

Ignoring these is like saying no one cared about TV picture quality until HD.

Riiiiight...look how many decades it took for cars to have seatbelts standard..or safety glass...or padded dashes...or disc brakes..or breakaway steering columns...etc. Detroit usually never did anything related to safety unless it was regulated.

Now it's a different story with Mercedes and Volvo, they actually thought about safety decades ago w/ the development of crush zones, etc.

Edited March 30, 2009 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

While it's true that Mercedes & Volvo made more advances

in safety in certain time periods to say Detroit never made

an effort in that regard unless it was regulated is idiotic.

Pre War Cadillacs (1928) had safety glass, GM pioneered

hydraulic brakes in affordable cars earlier still in 1923 &

dozens more preventative safety measures were made

before the Japanese even thought up their Toyopet AA in

1938. (or was it 1937?)

As far as seatbelts, people, average moms, dads & other

wise conformist types were turned off to the seatbelt for

the first few years. The public thought only an UNSAFE

car would need seatbelts.... after all, seatbelts are for

planes!

You can lead a horse to water...

As far as Detriot vs. the world: I'd take a brass era wood

bodied Model -T over the average 1960s or 1970s

Japanese $h!box that is basically a lightweight coffin.

[balthazar]

>>"Riiiiight...look how many decades it took for cars to have seatbelts standard..or safety glass...or padded dashes...or disc brakes..or breakaway steering columns...etc. Detroit usually never did anything related to safety unless it was regulated. "<<

Riiiiight....

Federal regulation did not begin until '66.

GM began installing seat belt provisions as standard in '62. Belts were optional years earlier. I've owned numerous '64 & '65 GMs with factory belts. '64 and '65 comes chronologically before '66, BTW.

Ford instituted a nationally-advertised safety campaign in '56, and seat belts were a centerpiece. It flopped badly in the marketplace. Tucker insisted on offering seat belts, but then, too, he was discouraged RE it due to public sentiment.

Even today, 40-some years after mandated belts, 20-some years after heavy PSAs & years after mandated belt useage laws, compliance is only in the circa 75-80% range nationally. Perhaps 'Detroit' isn't the only factor here, hmmm?

Safety glass : 1926

Padded dashes : 1950s (My '59 Buick has a padded dash.)

Disc brakes : 1949

Meanwhile, GM was conducting body integrity/impact testing in the 1930s, and Chrysler was doing actual crash testing in the same era. Mercedes, IIRC, started in the 1950s.

I know: "whatever".

[ocnblu]

My '65 Corvair had belts.

[§carlet §wordfish]

Speaking of Corvairs, I think the 2nd generation are my favorite hardtops.

In fact, I think they share a bit of resemblance with the BMW 2000cs sixty8 posted at first, but shapelier and with better proportions.

[Sixty8panther]

My 1964 Oldsmobile's factory installed seat belts were a work of art.

I was proud to show 'em off at car shows!

[ocnblu]

Sixty8, beauty is in the details. That's a cool shot, sir. And Mr. Swordfish, thanks for posting those beautiful little Chevys. You're right, GM really produced a masterpiece in the second-gen Corvair, it looks great from any angle. I regret selling mine, but I had no place to keep it out of the weather, and I didn't want to watch it deteriorate before my eyes after putting so much money into making it look good, so I sadly let it go. Mine had 94k original miles, a dark green Monza coupe with fawn interior.

[Sixty8panther]

I almost bought a '65 4dr hardtop 120 just like this one. Same color.

Someday I WILL own a '65-'69 Corvair, I would prefer the 2dr hardtop.

In fact, I think they share a bit of resemblance with the BMW 2000cs sixty8 posted at first, but shapelier and with better proportions.

Well said. I agree 100%

[Oracle of Delphi]

1963 Oldsmobile Super 88

[Sixty8panther]

I much prefer 1964.... the detailing in the grille is exquisite.

I loved my 1964 Oldsmobile Super 88 Holiday ...

[Cory Wolfe]

[Intrepidation]

[Sixty8panther]

BlackViper:

Those are fantastic examples. Esp. the Jag & Toyota Corona.

[Sixty8panther]

The Audi TT's Great-Grandfaher.

Auto Union / DKW coupe 1000 of the early 1960s.

Not sure if the Karmann bodied coupe was a true hardtop.

It DOES appear to be but I've never seen a photo of one

with the rear windows down.... Anyone know about this?

[ocnblu]

Um Sixty8, you posted a pic of one proving it is a hardtop... the advertisement.:AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

Well yeah... the first three are Hardtps, but the "chopped" looking

last one, white body/black roof is a Karmann bodied DKW and as

such might not be, despite the No.2 pencil thin B-pillar.

Notice the Karmann has a diff. grille, suicide doors & a lower

greenhouse with a unique C-pillar.

[Cory Wolfe]

This isn't a hardtop, but VW Karmann Type-34's are cool.

Edited April 5, 2009 by blackviper8891

[balthazar]

That's pretty damned nice & funky for a VW.

That would've made a neat Valiant to the '60 Plymouth.

Never seen one of those before, pic either.

>>"Those are fantastic examples. Esp. the.... Toyota Corona."<<

What happened to your sense of taste, 68 ?? Yikes.

[Sixty8panther]

That's pretty damned nice & funky for a VW.

That would've made a neat Valiant to the '60 Plymouth.

Never seen one of those before, pic either.

>>"Those are fantastic examples. Esp. the.... Toyota Corona."<<

What happened to your sense of taste, 68 ?? Yikes.

Excellent examples of "obscure, never seen weirdness"

not necessarily great style.

A guy in my neck of the woods has one of those

Jaguar coupe hardtops... it's FLAWLESS!!!

ESp. the 350 sbc under the hood.

What the F___ ? The Type-34 is 1st for me too!

[ocnblu]

Sixty8, oh, I was confused and dint know you was talking about the white car.

[Cory Wolfe]

That's pretty damned nice & funky for a VW.

That would've made a neat Valiant to the '60 Plymouth.

Never seen one of those before, pic either.

I hadn't known about them until I looked into more commonly known type 14 Karman Ghia's. These type 34's weren't actually sold in the U.S. They estimate there's about 2000 left with 400 or so being in the U.S.

Edited April 6, 2009 by blackviper8891

[Sixty8panther]

BV:

So was this thing based on the VW 410?

Sixty8, oh, I was confused and dint know you was talking about the white car.

It's all good.

They all look like awkward rejected design proposals

from the GM design studios circa 1948.

[Camino LS6]

New to me as well, BV!

Nice find.

I see lots of Corvair in that car...

[Sixty8panther]

Excellent point Camino.

Would have made a great 2nd gen. Pontiac Polaris.

(even though the 1st didn't exist in production form)

[Cory Wolfe]

BV:

So was this thing based on the VW 410?

It used the new Type 3 platform, debuting in 1961

New to me as well, BV!

Nice find.

I see lots of Corvair in that car...

Indeed. There are a few similarities to be seen.

[balthazar]

I also see early '60s MoPar: '61 Plymouth in the bodyline & the concave rear fascia/ minimal taillight, '63-67 in the triangulated C-Pillar, and the rear quarter 'chicken wing' of the proposed '62 Chryslers & DeSotos.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Excellent point Camino.

Would have made a great 2nd gen. Pontiac Polaris.

(even though the 1st didn't exist in production form)

1960s Rebadge EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!

[ocnblu]

That old Type 34 is SWEET. When I look at it, I immediately think of the Eos. Check it out.

[knightfan26917]

Hmph.

Can't believe I didn't mention it in my previous post in this thread ... but ... the first gen MCs (1970-1972) were hard tops

Cort | 35swm | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker ...RT 66 = Sept 5-16, '09

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I want a 2-tone Chevrolet" ... BJ Thomas ... '2-Car Garage'

[Sixty8panther]

While I love 1st gen. Chevrolet Monte Carlos

they're not "forgotten" or off the beaten path.

Still, wish there was more of them.

[knightfan26917]

While I love 1st gen. Chevrolet Monte Carlos

they're not "forgotten" or off the beaten path.

Still, wish there was more of them.

...on the road today, you mean?

If so ... yes, I agree .

Cort | 35swm | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker ...Chitown #2 = 07/25/09

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Looking at me now you might not know it" ... Emerson Drive ... 'Moments'

[Sixty8panther]

WMJ:

I love the AMX III Sport Wagon!

Have I posted the T666yota Corona 2dr hardtop yet?

[Robert Hall]

I love the styling of that Monaco..neat rear window treatment...was that exclusive to Dodge? I think I've only seen one or two of those in the last 25+ years.

[A Horse With No Name]

While I love 1st gen. Chevrolet Monte Carlos

they're not "forgotten" or off the beaten path.

Still, wish there was more of them.

Me too. A bunch were running around when I was a kid...they were more common than Camry's are now.

God, I miss those days.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I love the styling of that Monaco..neat rear window treatment...was that exclusive to Dodge? I think I've only seen one or two of those in the last 25+ years.

I saw one just like that...even green...today. Ran a service call down in Portsmouth...it sits in a side yard down off 8th street down by State electric/Central industrial.

Good looking car.

Chris

[balthazar]

I love the styling of that Monaco..neat rear window treatment...was that exclusive to Dodge? I think I've only seen one or two of those in the last 25+ years.

I looked into buying a '70 Polara 2-dr hardtop about 4 years ago, just because it had the Super-Lite option.

Too pricey.

[cletus8269]

me thinks they blew one of those up on mythbusters with the car full of lighters deal... that or maybe a late 70's celica.

[knightfan26917]

Me too. A bunch were running around when I was a kid...they were more common than Camry's are now.

God, I miss those days.

Chris

Sadly, I was too young to appreciate those days when they were here. Heck, I missed the entire 1st gen "live" ... I was born in '73, the year the MC switched to the 2nd gen ... and was named MT's COTY.

Cort | 35swm | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker ...Chitown #2 = 07/25/09

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"It's only a matter of time" ... Mariah Carey ... 'Always Be My Baby'

[Sixty8panther]

I wish Mercedes Benz had put this 4-door hardtop into production.

Someday I'll make my own. (when I win the Lottery pipe-dream #1,953,246,754)

It is a great photochop imho.

And if that W126 awesomeness does not impress you, feast your eyes on THIS, b!tches:

That's right, a FOUR DOOR, LONG DOOR STRETCH LIMO HARDTOP W126 coupe (!!!)

now THAT is sex on wheels.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sixty8panther

[A Horse With No Name]

I'd settle for just a diesel 'Benz.

Chris

[Sixty8panther]

I'd settle for just a diesel 'Benz.

Chris

I'm a picky bastard.

Here's my ideal (semi-realistic) M-Benz:

1. Hardtop

2. Turbocharged-Diesel

3. Manual Trans.

Built like a tank & RWD goes without saying,

that's how M.B. builds everything... at least

aside from the A-class & Smart.

I'd love to drop a 1/4 scale turbo-diesel V-16

from a U28 Locomotive into my 500SEC if

such a mini-V16-TD existed.

[Sixty8panther]

Your eyes do NOT deceive you:

[A Horse With No Name]

I'm a picky bastard.

Here's my ideal (semi-realistic) M-Benz:

1. Hardtop

2. Turbocharged-Diesel

3. Manual Trans.

Built like a tank & RWD goes without saying,

that's how M.B. builds everything...

We may be getting a Diesel Benz in the family...my 16 year old son's friends grandfather is thinking of giving him one just because the car has sentimental value to him and he wants to see it preserved.

It's not in real great shape though...so it would become a father son project.

Chris

[Sixty8panther]

I wish you luck with it.

The Turbo-Diesel W123 I bought recently

to fix up & resell s patiently awaiting a

couple quick fixes but has been another

example of a German car built to stand

the test of time. It may look gross & ugly

not to mention the wear & tear a 1/3 of a

million miles have resulted in. But it is

still a car with a lot of life left in it.

There's a part of me that wants to make

a Cuban Hot Rod out of the B-59 and drop

the M.B. 5-cylinder turbocharged diesel in

the old half-century old girl to essentially

almost double my fuel economy.

Balthazar would probably hunt me down

& bop me over the skull with a 3/4 inch

box wrench, but I think it would be a very

cool "hybrid" solution.

Anyway. I've owned four German cars so far:

1982 Mercedes Benz 240D sedan (diesel i4)

1984 Mercedes Benz (w126 series) 500SEC hardtop coupe (gasoline 303 cu. in. SOHC V8)

1988 BMW (e32 model) 735iL (inline/slant 6)

1982 Mercedes Benz 300D sedan (turbo diesel i5)

And I can tell you without hesitation that

there will be many more German cars in

my future... Someday I'd love to replace

my W126 hardtop Benz w/ its successor:

[Robert Hall]

My Merc experience has been limited to occasionally driving my sister's old money pits, the '84 500 SEL and '91 300CE here in AZ. Fun cars, but way too $$$$ to maintain.

I wouldn't mind having something like a late model, CPO CLS with low mileage, though, for a commuter car. I'd love an SL55 AMG or SL63 AMG, but they are waaaay outside my price range, new or used..

Rob

Edited June 24, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[A Horse With No Name]

...at least we're not talking a rolls or a bentley...

Stopped by Coachbuilt Motors today, a local resto shop that works on vintage Rolls.

58 Bently was in there getting a brake job...brake drums, were $2600 apiece...

Nothing like a twelve grand brake job to make you think about the costs of running a vintage car...

Chris

[Robert Hall]

...at least we're not talking a rolls or a bentley...

Stopped by Coachbuilt Motors today, a local resto shop that works on vintage Rolls.

58 Bentley was in there getting a brake job...brake drums, were $2600 apiece...

Nothing like a twelve grand brake job to make you think about the costs of running a vintage car...

Chris

Yeah... on the Merc 500SEL, a front or rear brake job is about $1000 (pads, rotors, misc parts, etc).

I read somewhere that with older luxury cars, 'if you couldn't afford it new, then you can't afford it used' because the maintenance costs will kill ya... like older Ferraris with their $12k tuneups..

I think I'll stick w/ domestics.

Rob

[Robert Hall]

Is that the 12 cylinder one?

Yes, it looks like there are 6 thingys on each side on the engine, and a tiny V12 badge on the C-pillar. Those (W140) were the biggest and heaviest of the S-class/CL, IIRC.

W140

Edited June 24, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

>>"There's a part of me that wants to make

a Cuban Hot Rod out of the B-59 and drop

the M.B. 5-cylinder turbocharged diesel in

the old half-century old girl to essentially

almost double my fuel economy.

Balthazar would probably hunt me down

& bop me over the skull with a 3/4 inch

box wrench, but I think it would be a very

cool "hybrid" solution."<<

Bopping you over the head would be the 'period' to the 'novel' I would do to you if you replaced a Nailhead with a german bratsmoker.

And no- it would NOT be "cool", it would ruin the car. Leave the smoker in the merse.

-- -- -- -- --

Old friend of mine has restored an old '60s ferrari- front brake re-do priced out @ $5K, and this is at least 6 years ago.

I can buy brand new front aluminum Pontiac 8-lug drums for $670. Add in hardware, rims, lug nuts & center caps and no doubt you could re-do the front there for under a grand.