GM has more troubles than you think

[G. David Felt]

So here is a Total BS story about how bad GM is due to the same crap rolled over. You would think that the Senior editor who only quotes that Asian Loving company Consumer reports would get his facts before writing a story. There are a few valid comments, but for the most part this is just another story aimed as hurting our own Auto Making business rather than helping it.

CNN Story ON GM has more troubles than you think!

What is your thoughts???????

[Farkas]

I stopped after reading the sub title. Not worth the time.

[DBeaSSt]

I stopped after reading the sub title. Not worth the time.

Yeah, that pretty much jaded me to the rest of the article too.

[GXT]

Good article. There is some good information in there about some of GM's flaws (cars/architecture, plant capacity, etc.). I encourage those of you with a "shoot the messenger" view of CR to read the article anyways.

I especially liked this, as it was one of GM's most boneheaded moves, and something I raised here years ago (and took quite some C&G flack for it):

"While the automaker was working on systems for low-volume trucks and buses with no consumer visibility, Toyota and Honda were building popular-priced hybrids that average people could actually buy."

This is also spot-on, and will become similarly apparent within a couple of years:

"The Volt has flashy mileage numbers but is very expensive and will have limited utility for most drivers."

[gm4life]

There were a few good points, but the not building good cars line is bull$h!, same liberal media trying to take down another great American company. The company I am really worried about is Chrysler.

[vonVeezelsnider]

f@#k those people. Our 3.5L V6 Chevy Impala gets 40MPG Hwy and our 2.2L Cobalt gets 45MPG hwy and, news flash, They're NOT LOUSY.

[G. David Felt]

Good article. There is some good information in there about some of GM's flaws (cars/architecture, plant capacity, etc.). I encourage those of you with a "shoot the messenger" view of CR to read the article anyways.

I especially liked this, as it was one of GM's most boneheaded moves, and something I raised here years ago (and took quite some C&G flack for it):

"While the automaker was working on systems for low-volume trucks and buses with no consumer visibility, Toyota and Honda were building popular-priced hybrids that average people could actually buy."

This is also spot-on, and will become similarly apparent within a couple of years:

"The Volt has flashy mileage numbers but is very expensive and will have limited utility for most drivers."

GXT, I felt the same way about some of the valid points, but I still think that while GM messed up killing the EV1, they did the right thing in building the hybrid Buses that are running all over Seattle and we now no longer have that black smoke and messy smell. Over all the busses here handle far more traffic than the few hybrid auto's but then the average consumer thinks in terms of personal selfishness and wants something only for themselves.

I do agree with you about the Volt, I wonder how many people will really buy a 40K vehicle like this.

Keeping the baby Duramax Diesel alive and into trucks and SUV's with mid to upper 20's for gas milage would make more money for GM than the Volt will.

[CARBIZ]

It's a douchebag article, cherry picking facts that suit the author's slant. CR is a rag and has been irrelevant for decades. My mother is the only person I know who reads that POS rag, and she bought a CR-V last year!

There is stupid cost cutting and then there is 'downsizing.' GM has to 'downsize' from the glory days of 40% market share - THAT IS THEIR BIGGEST CHALLENGE. Well, that and having so-called writers like this CNN bone-head chopped up and thrown in the same bag with Jimmy Hoffa.

GM has been profitable IN EVERY SINGLE MARKET ON THE PLANET, except N. America because it has gone from 45% to sub-20% market share.

Does this bone-head think that is simple? Poof - you just wave a magic wand and all the dealers, contracts, labor deals that were designed for the glory days of the '80s just go away?

At least from where I am now I can sit back and watch North America implode. I don't want to gloat, but every single person who buys a Toyota or Honda deserves everything that is coming. My mother boo-hoos to my sisters that she has lost a quarter mil in her investments. Drive your CR-V much?

[GXT]

GXT, I felt the same way about some of the valid points, but I still think that while GM messed up killing the EV1, they did the right thing in building the hybrid Buses that are running all over Seattle and we now no longer have that black smoke and messy smell. Over all the busses here handle far more traffic than the few hybrid auto's but then the average consumer thinks in terms of personal selfishness and wants something only for themselves.

I do agree with you about the Volt, I wonder how many people will really buy a 40K vehicle like this.

Keeping the baby Duramax Diesel alive and into trucks and SUV's with mid to upper 20's for gas milage would make more money for GM than the Volt will.

I agree they should have kept the EV1 going.

The buses in and of themselves would have been fine. But GM sold them as an either/or situation in relation to hybrid cars, which was false. They actually used them as justification NOT to have a hybrid car, and to say anyone making a hybrid car was acting improperly.

They also claimed, as you do now, that a bus uses more fuel than a car. While that is certainly true, one has to look at the numbers on the road. This was the most recent info I could find:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/...s_for_hybr.html

As you can see, GM had only 1,000 buses on the road by the time Toyota had sold about 1,000,000 Prius. So while a hybrid bus may save more fuel than a hybrid car, it will not make up that difference of scale... especially given the mediocre results that GM's production buses gave as compared to non-hybrid new buses. More importantly for GM now, if they had focused on hybrid cars they might have a profitable car instead of what is probably a money losing bus (given those volumes). Plus I doubt they would have suckered themselves into the Volt if they had a competitive hybrid car.

I see hybrid buyers unfairly demonized on this board all the time. But it is interesting that you consider buying a hybrid selfish.

[GXT]

It's a douchebag article, cherry picking facts that suit the author's slant. CR is a rag and has been irrelevant for decades. My mother is the only person I know who reads that POS rag, and she bought a CR-V last year!

I read it. I'm not sure I would go with a CR-V, but it sounds like she made a better-than-average choice.

It is still too early to say, but we're actually leaning more to the Venza right now. I'd rather not buy a Toyota, but Honda doesn't seem competitive in the 4cyl/4WD segment... especially if you want leather.

Did you actually read the article?

[CARBIZ]

I read it. I'm not sure I would go with a CR-V, but it sounds like she made a better-than-average choice.

It is still too early to say, but we're actually leaning more to the Venza right now. I'd rather not buy a Toyota, but Honda doesn't seem competitive in the 4cyl/4WD segment... especially if you want leather.

Did you actually read the article?

Yes, I read the article. Do you actually give a damn if your kids have jobs, other than working at Wal-Mart or McDonald's? Or if there is any money left in North America to pay for your retirement?

[CMG]

The article DOES have a few points, the main one I got which I agree upon being

One of the oldest laws in business is that you can't cost-cut your way to prosperity.

The biggest thing with any of the domestics IN MY OPINION is the IMAGE. The media seems to like to push an "import superiority" image as far as vehicles go, and until the domestics can break through that I think they are all in for a tough time. The public PERCEPTION is just as important as the PRODUCT.

[CMG]

The company I am really worried about is Chrysler.

I think the new LXs are going to be important, but the Chrysler lineup is pretty danged impressive of late IMO. The base entry level cars are the only wart..

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Bad cost-cutting ideas, poor efficiency and lousy cars - it's going to take a lot more than the Volt to save General Motors.

LMFAO... Well, one need not be bright ( no brighter than tha author at least) to see exactly how this author feels.

For one thing, GM isn't as clever as Toyota ™ and Honda about sharing parts among different models. According to an analysis of platform efficiency by CSM Worldwide, a Detroit-based forecasting and consulting firm, Toyota makes an average of 406,000 cars from each basic architecture, while Honda gets an amazing 509,000 cars. Higher volume means lower costs per car. So when GM by comparison, spins out a mere 350,000 units, it can't hope to save as much.

Okay, so 1) all that talk the media has been spewing out of it's ass about GM having 8 different divisions that sell the same cars must've been in naught, I guess? and 2) We're REALLY going to make this the 'lead bitch' over a difference of 56K cars in a 13 MILLION vehicle market? (Who cares about Honda, they're not the one's eating GM's lunch right now. If GM positions itself to better combat Toyota, it'll have Honda licked anyway)

Nor does GM run its plants as efficiently. When last measured by CSM, GM was operating at just 73% capacity, while Toyota was at 86% and Honda at 93%. Plants carry lots of fixed costs and burn a lot of cash when they aren't running at full speed.

Yet, according to Harbour, GM has had some of the most efficient plants in the world for a decade now?

BUT most importantly, GM just doesn't make very good cars and trucks. In Consumer Reports' latest scorecard on automaker performance, the automaker ranked 14th out of 15, or next to last. Only Chrysler scored worse.

We're basing this solely on +/- 1 million responses (if CR was lucky) from a VERY dedicated reader base, not the market itself, in a 13 million vehicle market. (Yes, I do realize that the average american is stupid enough NOT to figure all of that out on their own)

It is true that GM gets pulled down by some of its older models, Consumer Reports points out. But it's been making cars for 101 years. Shouldn't all its models be at least competitive?

And we ALL know that the design and engineering of a car hasn't changed AT ALL in 101 years, right?!?!

For another thing, GM has also been pursuing a disastrously wrong-headed development policy on hybrids. While the automaker was working on systems for low-volume trucks and buses with no consumer visibility, Toyota and Honda were building popular-priced hybrids that average people could actually buy.

Trucks = no consumer visibility when 55% of the market sold last year was trucks? Hmmm... Not to mention, trucks can benefit the most and make the most sesne for this technology. As for the buses... Nah... Those don't matter at ALL. It's not like they run their engines in stop and go, urban traffic for 12 hours a day or anything.

And the "average person" can afford a Prius? (as a primary means of transportation) I think not.

GM's current contender in that race is the most popular version of the Chevy Cobalt, which gets 25 mpg with a conventional engine. Meanwhile, the company is imploring everybody who will listen to wait for its $40,000 Chevy Volt, a so-called "range-extended" electric vehicle due 18 months from now. The Volt has flashy mileage numbers but is very expensive and will have limited utility for most drivers.

Except, the Cobalt XFE gets 36 MPG... And I love how he called the estimated 100mpg rating of the Volt (READ: the average urbanite will NEVER need gas again) "so-called... flashy" The Volt will never get the respect it deserves... It's too innovative for "an american company" so the media will botch the article (like this) to reduce it's significance in the eyes of the consumer.

How it is going to make its product development more responsive to actual customer needs.

Last time I checked, GM was still the top selling automaker in america and ALMOST, after YEARS of domination, the top selling automaker in the world. What esle do you want?

And how to reform its distribution system to better serve customers.

Eliminate dealers... Like it said it was going to do 4 months ago.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

At least from where I am now I can sit back and watch North America implode. I don't want to gloat, but every single person who buys a Toyota or Honda deserves everything that is coming. My mother boo-hoos to my sisters that she has lost a quarter mil in her investments. Drive your CR-V much?

+1

I'm loving watching "Rome" burn... And I'd love to throw some gas on the flames if I could.

[CARBIZ]

The article DOES have a few points, the main one I got which I agree upon being

The biggest thing with any of the domestics IN MY OPINION is the IMAGE. The media seems to like to push an "import superiority" image as far as vehicles go, and until the domestics can break through that I think they are all in for a tough time. The public PERCEPTION is just as important as the PRODUCT.

Let me tell you a little story. In late 1988 I bought a house. In fact, if you look up the real estate guide for Ontario, you will see a picture of that house as the LAST HOUSE BOUGHT BEFORE THE REAL ESTATE CRASH OF '89/90. I paid $145,000 for this house. Two years later, I hated the house, hated the money I was pouring into it, YADDA, YADDA, YADDA. So, I decided to sell it. Now, I knew I was going to LOSE money - but how much money did I WANT to lose? Ever ask yourself that question, when you know pain is coming? So, expert advice told me to list it for $139,900. Nothing. $136,000. Nothing. Nearly 18 months went by and no nibbles. Finally, I fired the real estate agent and got another. Her first words were,"Do you want to sell this house?" Verdict: listed it for $119,900 and it sold in 3 weeks. There is no way I would have believed, 18 months earlier, that I was going to have to lose $26k (plus interest and the money I poured into it.) No way I would have accepted that.

The moral of the story is, with a committee of 1 (plus my parents who had ponied up the mortgage in the first place), I could not decide where the market was going to bottom out. I was going to lose my shirt, but would I be able to keep my arms and legs at least?

Now multiply this by what was once a $200b a year auto company that commanded every market it dipped it's tows into. With all the committees, VPs, Presidents, members on the Board, unions and over a quarter million employees (world-wide) - HOW THE HELL WOULD YOU DECIDE WHERE THE BALL WILL FINALLY COME TO REST?

It had to come to this, sadly. This is the way that democracies work, and how American corporations that have to deal with an impatient, selfish WallStreet have to work. Wagoner & the boys have been cutting out fat for 8 years. They were also harmonizing the products, increasing the quality and making the cars more desireable. But there is no way to deal with the mess that unfolded in the past 18 months, nor could anyone have gone to the UAW or parts suppliers or dealers 3 years ago and said, "We're going to have 15% market share and this is what we need you to give up," and reasonably expect to keep their jobs.

It is easy to plan for sales increases, even for modest dips, but the American car market was waaay too insular for far too long. Most of the people on C&G have never ventured beyond America's borders to see what others are driving, so how could the Detroit marketing mavens of 15 years ago seen this coming? 15% market share is nothing to be ashamed of, but how do you cut from 45% share to 15%? Has any other company in history had to do that? And it's not like GM has crashed - it has only done so in North America. Everywhere else, it is doing fantasically well, relative to the world market today.

No, I believe it is going to take a hard kick in the balls for ALL North Americans to truly appreciate what they once had.

That is why I am here and not there. I saw this coming years ago.

[Camino LS6]

What jackass wrote this drivel?

And who is "CSM", anyway?

Nevermind.

I don't want to know.

[hyperv6]

The story is a load of crap.

While GM does and has had problems they have also done many things right.

GM each of the last few years has offfered new cars that are as good and in some cases better than many of the imports.

They offer many efficent cars that they get no credit for.

They may not get as many cars off of one platform as they offer a wider veriety of cars that can not share the same platform. In other words sold real truck not trucks built on car platforms that claim to be trucks.

The EV-1 one would have never flown and blown up in GM face. That car was a prototype that the was not proven for long term use. If you had to buy it verse lease would have cost too much for the market at that time and if you had to repair it you would aboandon it. The odds of the car not living up to expectations were great and if it fail GM would have been put on the cross for it.

Lets face it the little electric Honda was not a hit in the cold states due to it poor winter driving and limited life of the battery. I have seen more Vega's on the road in the last year than the Honda Electric cars.

GM has has a rough road to prove it is making good cars while dealing with high production cost and then add poor timing with high gas prices and the economy.

GM today has some of the best engines and transmissions in the industry.

I am not a Roswell kind of guy but I do feel there are people that are bent to see our country fail. You see it in the actions of many powerful people in different areas. Some in the press, Industry, entertainment and even goverment.

They all claim to be for the good old USA but their actions speak otherwise. They always want to just run down what is wrong and never support what is right. Some claim to do it for the envoiroment and some claim to do it for our freedom or general welfare. The truth is they do more damage to our country than help.

Better to give a hand to someone who is down and support them vs just keep stepping on them to keep them down. In other words give as much credit as you can vs just pointing out the flaws.

The media and goverment need to take action in the way of where can we help vs just keep on kicking them.

Together we stand devided we will fail and fall. Form Rome to Russia in history amny giants have fallen. Many will reget us when we fail but it will be too late by then.

Edited March 12, 2009 by hyperv6

[Robert Hall]

Too much negativity in the news about everything these days... I've sworn off listening/watching the news for a while...just need to focus on the important stuff

[Drew Dowdell]

I especially liked this, as it was one of GM's most boneheaded moves, and something I raised here years ago (and took quite some C&G flack for it):

"While the automaker was working on systems for low-volume trucks and buses with no consumer visibility, Toyota and Honda were building popular-priced, but money losing, hybrids that average people could actually buy all the while turning out new gas guzzling SUVs like the Tundra, Sequoia, Armada, QX, and the Ridgeline, which despite it's relatively diminutive size gets the same fuel economy as a much more capable Chevy Avalanche"

Fixed that up there for ya.

[Camino LS6]

One of your best C&G posts ever, Hyper.

[ellives]

One of your best C&G posts ever, Hyper.

I agree. Oldsmoboi's edit wasn't bad either.

[smk4565]

Most of that article is true. GM doesn't have one 40 or 50 mpg car. GM has a few stars, but more G5's and Torrents than CTS's and Corvette's. And I also noticed that in GM's 100 page plan they talked a lot about how to cut costs, but never mentioned how they would raise revenue and profit margin. GM has to get better, they need better products and fast. SRX/Equinox for example are not good enough. Ford had the Edge and MKX 2 years ago, Toyota had the Highlander and RX 5-10 years ago, GM's offerings are essentially the same, just a few years late. GM hasn't done anything uniquely different to leap in front of the competition, they are still chasing, and as long as they chase, they will keep losing buyers.

[ShadowDog]

Most of that article is true. GM doesn't have one 40 or 50 mpg car. GM has a few stars, but more G5's and Torrents than CTS's and Corvette's. And I also noticed that in GM's 100 page plan they talked a lot about how to cut costs, but never mentioned how they would raise revenue and profit margin. GM has to get better, they need better products and fast. SRX/Equinox for example are not good enough. Ford had the Edge and MKX 2 years ago, Toyota had the Highlander and RX 5-10 years ago, GM's offerings are essentially the same, just a few years late. GM hasn't done anything uniquely different to leap in front of the competition, they are still chasing, and as long as they chase, they will keep losing buyers.

Edit: "...in my humble opinion."

[daves87rs]

f@#k those people. Our 3.5L V6 Chevy Impala gets 40MPG Hwy and our 2.2L Cobalt gets 45MPG hwy and, news flash, They're NOT LOUSY.

[daves87rs]

Most of that article is true. GM doesn't have one 40 or 50 mpg car. GM has a few stars, but more G5's and Torrents than CTS's and Corvette's. And I also noticed that in GM's 100 page plan they talked a lot about how to cut costs, but never mentioned how they would raise revenue and profit margin. GM has to get better, they need better products and fast. SRX/Equinox for example are not good enough. Ford had the Edge and MKX 2 years ago, Toyota had the Highlander and RX 5-10 years ago, GM's offerings are essentially the same, just a few years late. GM hasn't done anything uniquely different to leap in front of the competition, they are still chasing, and as long as they chase, they will keep losing buyers.

And all I hear is: Image, Image, Image.....

[daves87rs]

One of your best C&G posts ever, Hyper.

+2

[SAmadei]

Eliminate dealers... Like it said it was going to do 4 months ago.

Just start selling cars online. You already pay a delivery fee to the dealer, why not just pay that to an auto transport company. The brick and mortar dealers can stick around... doing service and parts and sales to people who need a hand-holding experience... for a price.

This will put most unnecessary dealers right out of business.

For those who know what they want, let 'em buy direct, rather than deal with PITA dealers.

[Bimmer325]

I don't want to gloat, but every single person who buys a Toyota or Honda deserves everything that is coming.

Give me a f@#king break.

[FloydHendershot]

This part stuck in my craw.

Toyota is coming to market with a third-generation Prius that carries an EPA rating of 50 miles per gallon. And Honda just announced that its new Insight, which gets 43 mpg on the highway, will sell for $20,000.

GM's current contender in that race is the most popular version of the Chevy Cobalt, which gets 25 mpg with a conventional engine.

How come he contrasts the highway miles with city miles?

GXT, I felt the same way about some of the valid points, but I still think that while GM messed up killing the EV1, they did the right thing in building the hybrid Buses that are running all over Seattle and we now no longer have that black smoke and messy smell. Over all the busses here handle far more traffic than the few hybrid auto's but then the average consumer thinks in terms of personal selfishness and wants something only for themselves.

I do agree with you about the Volt, I wonder how many people will really buy a 40K vehicle like this.

Keeping the baby Duramax Diesel alive and inve humanto trucks and SUV's with mid to upper 20's for gas milage would make more money for GM than the Volt will.

I agree with this. Why chastise GM for being environmentally sensible; even if it was not their intention. There must be data to corroborate the benefit of added efficiency in the most thirsty (and polluting) vehicles. I would presume a more significant impact on resources and environment by employing said technology where it is needed most.

What would make more sense; everyone driving a Prius or 40-50 people hopping on a hybrid bus?

F

or another thing, GM has also been pursuing a disastrously wrong-headed development policy on hybrids. While the automaker was working on systems for low-volume trucks and buses with no consumer visibility, Toyota and Honda were building popular-priced hybrids that average people could actually buy.

Low volume trucks? Does this person know anything about the industry he is writing about?

I feel obligated to ask after helping to save the environment and the worlds natural resources why did Toyota introduce the Tundra and how that fits into their corporate model and green-ness portfolio?

Edited March 12, 2009 by FloydHendershot

[CARBIZ]

Just start selling cars online. You already pay a delivery fee to the dealer, why not just pay that to an auto transport company. The brick and mortar dealers can stick around... doing service and parts and sales to people who need a hand-holding experience... for a price.

This will put most unnecessary dealers right out of business.

For those who know what they want, let 'em buy direct, rather than deal with PITA dealers.

Well, that's ONE solution to the jobless crisis. While we're at it, let's just get rid of bank tellers, department stores and, hey - anything that can be bought. Let the items be sold by able bodied telemarketers from Mumbai.

The dealers need to be culled, to be sure, but where do you plan to test drive the vehicles - and do you think you know that much more than the average salesman?

[CARBIZ]

Give me a f@#king break.

Any time.

[Robert Hall]

And all I hear is: Image, Image, Image.....

Image sells..that's marketing.

[Robert Hall]

What would make more sense; everyone driving a Prius or 40-50 people hopping on a hybrid bus?

A lot more people drive than ride buses, the car is a much more visible product....i.e. municipalities and transit organisations buy buses, people buy cars. A full hybrid car is a much bigger consumer win..

Low volume trucks? Does this person know anything about the industry he is writing about?

What are the sales on GM's hybrid trucks and SUVs? Pretty small volume compared to regular trucks and SUVs...

Edited March 12, 2009 by moltar

[Robert Hall]

f@#k those people. Our 3.5L V6 Chevy Impala gets 40MPG Hwy and our 2.2L Cobalt gets 45MPG hwy and, news flash, They're NOT LOUSY.

Those must be Canadian MPGs...those are definitely not the US numbers.

[FloydHendershot]

A lot more people drive than ride buses, the car is a much more visible product....

What are the sales on GM's hybrid trucks? Pretty small volume compared to regular trucks..

True, I know what you mean. Like this? pic

It does not change the fact that those vehicles are better off with those hybrid systems. If you truly care to make a difference you will get on a bus, train,bike, or take a hike. Congesting the roads with cars such as the Prius are not the answer only an illusion.

[Robert Hall]

True, I know what you mean. Like this? pic

It does not change the fact that those vehicles are better off with those hybrid systems. If you truly care to make a difference you will get on a bus, train,bike, or take a hike. Congesting the roads with cars such as the Prius are not the answer only an illusion.

Taking a train, bus, biking is not a realistic option for many people...those options might work for 10% of the commuters, but in a large, sprawling metro area such as Phoenix, commuting by car/truck/SUV is still the only realistic option.

[enzl]

The CNN article is full of gross inaccuracies and distorted facts, to be sure, but aren't all of GM's most ardent defenders missing the point?

GM should have been working on the massive restructuring being forced on them now---years ago. The writing has been on the wall for the past 2 decades. Consistent market share loss, product overlap and systemic inability to really produce 'game-changers'---top flight, undeniably great product (with rare exception) have been the song for years!

That where GM is at fault. Writers like this guy should be embarassed---but the fall of GM has only been sped up by recent events...instead of a slow-motion dive into the ground, this plane crash is now at 500 MPH.

How many of us have been screaming about product problems, marketing issues, image meltdown et al....forever!

The time has come to make all the hard decisions---and the ax will fall on many as a result. Wouldn't a controlled winddown be superior to what we're looking at?

You guys can cry all you want about the content of this story, but the theme is frighteningly accurate--deadly for GM as a matter of fact. Don't confuse poor writing with the substance of the underlying situation.

Our neighboring dealer (PBGMC) just closed his doors after 30+ years in the biz. A family owned business---it was either bleed his families nest egg dry or quit---he had to quit because GM has been run by a bunch of soft-headed, short-sighted losers for years--they nearly destroyed Buick and Pontiac---left them as shells of their former glory. I can take issue with the author, but don't forget the original sin here!

[SAmadei]

Well, that's ONE solution to the jobless crisis. While we're at it, let's just get rid of bank tellers, department stores and, hey - anything that can be bought. Let the items be sold by able bodied telemarketers from Mumbai.

We are getting rid of bank tellers. If I have a transaction with my bank that doesn't require a teller, and I use one, I get hit with a $1 fee.

We are getting rid of department stores... they have been a dying breed since the '50s. We like big box stores now.

I'm not advocating getting rid of ALL dealer salespersons... just the 60% cruft. When I was at the dealer two months ago, there where people hanging around left and right doing NOTHING but admiring the shine on the floor. I had to talk to three clueless salespersons before they could locate a G8 IN THEIR LOT! This is a well known GM dealership with 5 big GM brands. Nobody knew crap about GM product. Even when I got to the point to talk to someone who could make a deal, it was painful.

I walked out... AGAIN.

The dealers need to be culled, to be sure, but where do you plan to test drive the vehicles - and do you think you know that much more than the average salesman?

How effective is a test drive today? You can't _really_ drive the car hard without scaring the salesperson. And most cars in the same class all handle and drive about the same anymore.

Actually, a couple years ago, I went to a Toyota test driving event. In other words, I got to trash Toyotas all afternoon. While it was geared towards the young and featured the more entry level stuff, at least I could drive the cars more like real life... and all the cars stayed shiny side up. While I had ZERO chance of being swayed, I could see this being very good for the more impressionable.

Me? I like going to the car shows. I can try them out without being bothered. For an actual test drive? I'll rent a car from Alamo. The one car I rented I drove VERY aggressively for 150 miles through mountain switchbacks. The brakes and tires definitely got a workout... but the W-body's limits were quite exposed.

Can I rent a G8 for a test drive? It's hard... but it was hard trying to get a G8 test drive at the dealership, as well. "We don't have any G8s... would you like to try out a new G6?" Are you f'ing kidding me?!?

Granted, some dealerships do have better test drive setups... however, I am never offered them. And no, I don't walk in looking like a homeless crackhead and my cash and credit is quite sufficient.

[Robert Hall]

We are getting rid of bank tellers. If I have a transaction with my bank that doesn't require a teller, and I use one, I get hit with a $1 fee.

It's literally been nearly 10 years since I've had a transaction w/ a bank teller. I do all my banking online or at my bank's ATM (for depositing checks, getting cash, etc).

We are getting rid of department stores... they have been a dying breed since the '50s. We like big box stores now.

Ya, Target, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Borders, and occasionally Men's Warehouse...that's about it for me..once in a while I'll go to a Dillards for shirts.

Agreed on the rental thing..though it's pretty much impossible to rent performance models w/ manual transmissions, at least from the major rental agencies (the Mustangs I've rented from Hertz are V6 automatics). Rental cars have been my only exposure to late model domestic cars for years (besides my Jeep) ..have done a few ride and drive events (went to a one sponsored by Car and Driver for Cadillac a couple years ago, and also a few BMW and Mercedes events.

Edited March 12, 2009 by moltar

[cletus8269]

We are getting rid of bank tellers. If I have a transaction with my bank that doesn't require a teller, and I use one, I get hit with a $1 fee.

We are getting rid of department stores... they have been a dying breed since the '50s. We like big box stores now.

I'm not advocating getting rid of ALL dealer salespersons... just the 60% cruft. When I was at the dealer two months ago, there where people hanging around left and right doing NOTHING but admiring the shine on the floor. I had to talk to three clueless salespersons before they could locate a G8 IN THEIR LOT! This is a well known GM dealership with 5 big GM brands. Nobody knew crap about GM product. Even when I got to the point to talk to someone who could make a deal, it was painful.

i see where you are coming from but most of the better paid sales people that know their stuff are probably a dying breed. to scared to risk hanging around and seeing if the general will make it through. of course some of them might be in the same boat as CARBIZ. just got tired of all the effort for nearly no payoff. i wouldnt be shocked at the turnover rate for car salesmen right now at all.

How effective is a test drive today? You can't _really_ drive the car hard without scaring the salesperson. And most cars in the same class all handle and drive about the same anymore.

Granted, some dealerships do have better test drive setups... however, I am never offered them. And no, I don't walk in looking like a homeless crackhead and my cash and credit is quite sufficient.

back when our local chevy dealer was dick brooks chevrolet there was a sweet 01 ss camaro on the lot in pewter metallic. i stopped and looked a few times and one day an older man came out to talk to me. i still had my SS454 then and his son had one too. we talked about the camaro and he told me how he liked it but prefered the handling and looks of the ws6 trans am he owned more. long story short he asked if i wanted to take a spin in it ( ) i politely turned him down because A) i didnt want to wreck it and B) i wasnt that used to a stick so i definately wasnt willing to replace a clutch.

[CARBIZ]

[Chuckles]

Well, fortunately, most people don't set out to destroy a car, they just want to see the 'sight lines,' how quiet it is, whether they can see the mirrors properly, how responsive it is, etc. Usually, I had to coax people to be a little more aggressive with the vehicle they were testing.

The Auto Malls are great places for direct comparisons. [sighs] As I've said tirelessly for years on C&G, most of you don't represent most of the customers out there. Most of them don't have a clue about cars - or why else would the Camry be a top seller? These are the sheeple who follow the herd and buy what their neighbors do - that's why GM was so successful in the '60s/'70s and why Toyota is now. People don't like to think for themselves. That is also why the West is in such a quagmire in the 21st Century.

Catalog stores have come and gone. Even with toasters and microwaves, people want to touch/feel the product and, yes, even listen to some boring salesperson droan on because - gasp, he/she might actually know something you don't. Box stores are really just clusters of mini-department stores - it's just another name. Retail won't go away. Even internet groceries or DVD rentals have never taken off, despite the pundits (with vested interests) predicting so for decades now. To coin a cliche: the more things change, the more they stay the same. Hell, you can buy stocks over the internet, but do you think Bill Gates does that?

I've also said this before: any salesperson worth their weight in salt can also detect a know-it-all tire kicker from a mile away, and will either suddenly be on the phone or have a little fun back.

You get as good as you give; that's human nature.

But having said that, I have also been preaching for years that the entire dealer system needs to be thrown out. Of course, that will never happen because it suits the OEMs to let the dealer take the blame for the pricing games that are played and other BS. The OEMs should take back the dealers, salestaff should be non-commissioned, highly trained product advisors, and the sticker should be the sticker. End of story. That would go a long way to easing the perceived pain of car shopping.

The way GM does things worked well when it had 50% market share because even if you hated the dealer, you wouldn't have bought a Ford or Chrysler anyway. Obviously, those days are gone.

[SAmadei]

Well, fortunately, most people don't set out to destroy a car, they just want to see the 'sight lines,' how quiet it is, whether they can see the mirrors properly, how responsive it is, etc. Usually, I had to coax people to be a little more aggressive with the vehicle they were testing.

Well, I don't set out to destroy anything... but a test drive needs to represent your driving... especially for enthusiasts. Keep in mind, we all have selective amnesia on the shocking was we abuse the car we "love". ;-)

The Auto Malls are great places for direct comparisons. [sighs] As I've said tirelessly for years on C&G, most of you don't represent most of the customers out there. Most of them don't have a clue about cars - or why else would the Camry be a top seller? These are the sheeple who follow the herd and buy what their neighbors do - that's why GM was so successful in the '60s/'70s and why Toyota is now. People don't like to think for themselves. That is also why the West is in such a quagmire in the 21st Century.

The C&G crew are definitely unique. However, internet savvy, C&G-like, already-know-a-good-deal-about-what-they-want types are increasing. You can buy cars sight unseen on eBay, delivered to your house next week... the OEMs need to start doing this.

An informed consumer is a good thing, as long as you aren't trying to peddle overpriced garbage.

I've also said this before: any salesperson worth their weight in salt can also detect a know-it-all tire kicker from a mile away, and will either suddenly be on the phone or have a little fun back.

Sometimes, I think these salespersons are the worst... they get defensive... or obnoxious... and working with these folks can be a PITA.

But having said that, I have also been preaching for years that the entire dealer system needs to be thrown out. Of course, that will never happen because it suits the OEMs to let the dealer take the blame for the pricing games that are played and other BS. The OEMs should take back the dealers, salestaff should be non-commissioned, highly trained product advisors, and the sticker should be the sticker. End of story. That would go a long way to easing the perceived pain of car shopping.

The way GM does things worked well when it had 50% market share because even if you hated the dealer, you wouldn't have bought a Ford or Chrysler anyway. Obviously, those days are gone.

Agreed agreed agreed. Of course, this is the best time for GM to fix the dealer system... while the dealers are weak and GM has, well, nothing to lose. Just adding a true online channel would make alot of people happy.

[CARBIZ]

Well, I don't set out to destroy anything... but a test drive needs to represent your driving... especially for enthusiasts. Keep in mind, we all have selective amnesia on the shocking was we abuse the car we "love". ;-)

The C&G crew are definitely unique. However, internet savvy, C&G-like, already-know-a-good-deal-about-what-they-want types are increasing. You can buy cars sight unseen on eBay, delivered to your house next week... the OEMs need to start doing this.

An informed consumer is a good thing, as long as you aren't trying to peddle overpriced garbage.

Sometimes, I think these salespersons are the worst... they get defensive... or obnoxious... and working with these folks can be a PITA.

Agreed agreed agreed. Of course, this is the best time for GM to fix the dealer system... while the dealers are weak and GM has, well, nothing to lose. Just adding a true online channel would make alot of people happy.

I owned 2 video stores for 11 years, from '85 to '96. I remember our former parent company (National Video, who had 1,000 stores in the States before Wayne H even heard of Blockbuster) giving us a presentation in 1986 that video on demand was going to replace video rentals.

There is a Blockbuster 6 blocks from my apartment here in Sao Paulo. So much for that prediction.

On the face of it, the internet can inform, but since savvy companies have only moved their BS from print media to the internet, from what I saw, the internet was only paralyzing people. Auto sales has nothing to do with the product and everything to do with the human interaction. Every sales seminar I ever attended understood this. At none of the dealers where I worked did the #1 guy know as much about product as I did, yet they made a killling.

The 'informed' consumer is never going to be absolutely sure he/she bought the 'best' car or got the 'best' deal, since both of those mean different things to different people and both of those change over time, even daily.

In my 11 years of sales experience, the 'price whores,' were never happy with the vehicle they bought, or the deal they got. The people who bought into the sales experience drove away happier and MAYBE paid $5 or $10 a month more.

If getting ulcers over buying a car every few years is worth it, then go nuts..............

[cletus8269]

Well, fortunately, most people don't set out to destroy a car, they just want to see the 'sight lines,' how quiet it is, whether they can see the mirrors properly, how responsive it is, etc. Usually, I had to coax people to be a little more aggressive with the vehicle they were testing.

heheh when my dad was lookin for his 94 z28 (would have waited if he had known about the ss's 2 yrs down the road) the dealer went out on a back road and stomped it at 25mph, wound it up to 115 before letting off. my mom was in the back seat too. the funny thing is my dad said when the guy got it slowed back down he was all breathing hard and jittery like he'd never seen 100mph before. dad said if he'd been driving he could have made the salesman change his pants... i believe that cause he's made me pale as a sheet many a times.

[G. David Felt]

heheh when my dad was lookin for his 94 z28 (would have waited if he had known about the ss's 2 yrs down the road) the dealer went out on a back road and stomped it at 25mph, wound it up to 115 before letting off. my mom was in the back seat too. the funny thing is my dad said when the guy got it slowed back down he was all breathing hard and jittery like he'd never seen 100mph before. dad said if he'd been driving he could have made the salesman change his pants... i believe that cause he's made me pale as a sheet many a times.

:rotflmao: That is so true, I have done that to my wife and kids many times. :rotflmao:

So few of us really can drive an auto to the edge and stay totally in control. :sign0200:

[Robert Hall]

[Chuckles]

Retail won't go away. Even internet groceries or DVD rentals have never taken off, despite the pundits (with vested interests) predicting so for decades now.

Internet DVD rentals took off, Netflix has been quite successful... I haven't been in a Blockbuster in nearly 9 years now (had Netflix since May '00). Streaming video is supposed to be the next big thing...

[hyperv6]

I had no interest in a HHR SS let alone a HHR.

Then last May I stopped at the dealer on a whim and looked at a new HHR SS. The saleman offered me a test drive 3 min into our first meeting. He gave me the keys and got my wife and son in as see you in and see you in a little while.

Well I tok off and the car felt good. It was a 5 sp and had very good road manners. I had a car infront of me on a back road that turned off so I dropped into third gear and let it go to see the boost gauge climb.

Well I saw over 15+PSI and shifted it into third. It was then I looked down and saw the small speedo just over 96 MPH and climbing. One I got over 100 MPH I let off, it was a residental area and I knew of a State Trooper living just up the road. The funny thing is 100 MPH in this vehicle does not feel fast with the well sorted suspesion.

Then I took it too the winding roads and it felt even better.

I then stopped at a buddys house to show him and as I left reved it up and let off in second gear to hear the blow off valve pop.

The funny thing is I knew the salesman was ok with me running it as he took the time to explain the no lift shift and how to use it when I left. To me that was a green light.

To make a long story short by letting me take that SS for a run sold me on it and I went back 3 months later to buy a car from that salesman.

Now at the GM ride and drive the Z06 auto cross was a blast we even got to the point that my buddy and drifted through parts of the run and no complains from the GM co riders.

THe only time I made him speak up is when I drove it deep into the stopping area as I am used to doing that when I auto cross.

It must have not affected him too much as I told him I take my own car out for runs. I told him that is how I finish at the line and told him and I was sorry. He said no problem and asked if I wanted a second run and I was ok to drive it even deeper on braking which I was conservitive on in the first run.

Needless to say I learned the true feel and magic of a Corvette Z06 due to GM letting me run one hard on a Airport appron that day. the shame is some owner have never done what we did that day with their own.

FYI the CTSv was just a Z06 with 4 doors as my drive after the Vette was it and it was no less fun.