WHAT CAR STARTED THE DEATH OF SATURN?

[regfootball]

I will go with Ion. Vue had built some momentum for Saturn as a more than one model car. I think the Ion destroyed whatever GM had because it was so needed for the Ion to be a homerun and it was a big let down in a huge way. Then the Aura as good as it was could not overcome the damage Ion did to the brand.

[pow]

+1 It's the ION.

For nearly 10 years, Saturn sold nothing but the S-series - it was their most important vehicle, and they really blew it with its replacement. Then Saturn went on to divert their resources to other niche vehicles, like minivans, 15-mpg SUVs, and rebadged Chevy sedans.

[ocnblu]

I think that crappy L-series did nothing to help them. I'll go with L-series as the Beginning of the End.

[Satty]

The 2nd generation S-cars. When all they did was a facelift instead of keeping the cars ahead of the competition, they sealed Saturn's fate. Second place goes to the Relay, first Saturn without polymer panels.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree on the Ion. The L-series was too unknown to do damage and it was a new segment that Saturn hadn't been in before. So the Ion not being a home run is what started it, Following up with a sudden shift to trying to bring Saturn up market with the Astra, Aura, Sky, and second gen Vue just confused customer who really just wanted another S-car. The Crossover sport vans were just an abomination in and brand.

The LS, especially in later years doesn't deserve the reputation it has. For a generic family sedan, it isn't bad.... and for DOHC humpers, there was narry a pushrod in sight.

[gm4life]

It had to have been the Ion. What an ugly little car, with a crude interior. I was worried when GM said the Cobalt will be based on the same platform as the Ion, thankfully it was a whole lot better looking. The L-Series did nothing for them either with all the troubles they had, factor in a Relay and Outlook and Sky they never belonged getting and an over-priced Astra we have a failure. Thank God Saturn went instead of Pontiac, my belief was it was going to be one of the two. If Pontiac had gone and Saturn would have stayed I prolly wouldn't be buying a new GM car again.

[Drew Dowdell]

I really wish Cadillac had gotten the upper Kappa instead of Saturn. I would have deposit money on that one.

I wish the G6 had gotten the Aura interior and a refresh instead of Saturn getting the Aura.

I wish the Astra had come over to replace the Vibe and was available in more body styles.

I wish the Relay and Montana had never been born and instead the money had been spent on a better Uplander and Terazza.

I wish the new-Vue had been the new Buick Off-Roadmaster.

[cire]

The 2nd generation S-cars. When all they did was a facelift instead of keeping the cars ahead of the competition, they sealed Saturn's fate. Second place goes to the Relay, first Saturn without polymer panels.

I agree with the 2nd generation Saturn S-Series. I was in the market for a new car at the time and decided to give the then newly introduced 2nd gen Saturn SL a test drive. It seemed very crude and uncompetitive compared to some of the car's competitors that I test drove the very same day. I ended up buying a competitor's product instead. GM spent billions launching this brand to counter the Asian imports, but they didn't do much after that to ensure that the brand stayed current and competitive. It was a very expensive yet ultimately halfhearted attempt by GM to regain lost market share and customers. I still think GM would have been better off by simply making drastic improvements within their existing divisional structure; they should have tried "thinking outside" of their existing box instead of creating a troublesome new box that they weren't able to maintain or sustain. Creating a new division with its own accompanying dedicated factory and dealership body isn't required to engineer/design/build class leading products and improve/overhaul customer service.

[G. David Felt]

QUOTE (Satty @ Mar 5 2009, 04:04 AM)

The 2nd generation S-cars. When all they did was a facelift instead of keeping the cars ahead of the competition, they sealed Saturn's fate. Second place goes to the Relay, first Saturn without polymer panels.

I agree with the 2nd generation Saturn S-Series. I was in the market for a new car at the time and decided to give the then newly introduced 2nd gen Saturn SL a test drive. It seemed very crude and uncompetitive compared to some of the car's competitors that I test drove the very same day. I ended up buying a competitor's product instead. GM spent billions launching this brand to counter the Asian imports, but they didn't do much after that to ensure that the brand stayed current and competitive. It was a very expensive yet ultimately halfhearted attempt by GM to regain lost market share and customers. I still think GM would have been better off by simply making drastic improvements within their existing divisional structure; they should have tried "thinking outside" of their existing box instead of creating a troublesome new box that they weren't able to maintain or sustain. Creating a new division with its own accompanying dedicated factory and dealership body isn't required to engineer/design/build class leading products and improve/overhaul customer service.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally agree with both these post. At this point just sell it off or close it down, GM should have just focused on their core brands instead of thinking they had to build a whole new box.

[Intrepidation]

I would say mainly the Ion, because when it was introduced it was so bad that it is to this day regarded as the worst car to be sold in the states in recent history.

Runner up goes to the Relay, for not only being badge engineered (a sign of things to come) but the first Saturn to not have polymer panels, thereby loosing the only thing that made Saturn special.

[cire]

I really wish Cadillac had gotten the upper Kappa instead of Saturn. I would have deposit money on that one.

I wish the G6 had gotten the Aura interior and a refresh instead of Saturn getting the Aura.

I wish the Astra had come over to replace the Vibe and was available in more body styles.

I wish the Relay and Montana had never been born and instead the money had been spent on a better Uplander and Terazza.

I wish the new-Vue had been the new Buick Off-Roadmaster.

I agree with the Kappa Cadillac. Maybe a Kappa based Cadillac product would have helped the platform return a profit. Producing 2 relatively affordable products on such a limited platform was a misguided idea and a waste of the platform. The Sky should have been the Solstice (since Pontiac should have been aligned with Opel in the first place) and then a luxury version should have been developed for Cadillac.

I agree that the Aura would have made a more appropriate midsize sedan for Pontiac than the current G6.

The current Astra line probably would have been more successful in the U.S. if:

1) The car would have been included in GMNA's small car plans at the beginning of the car's design/engineering cycle. The resulting car line would then have been equipped with the goods to make it successful in North America. It would have also been assigned to a North American production facility to avoid the negative effects of exchange rates on the car's MSRP.

2) The car would have been available in a sedan configuration as well as the 3-door/5-door hatchbacks.

3) The car line would have been assigned to Pontiac, which has a larger dealership base and a sportier image than Saturn. Saturn would have then been aligned with the NUMMI arrangement and reduced back to a compact 3 vehicle lineup (sedan, coupe, and tall wagon).

Since GM has never really made an impact on the minivan segment, they should have either just abandoned the segment entirely (which they have) or teamed up with another automaker with a successful minivan product to produce one just for Chevrolet (Saturn, Pontiac, and Buick should not be involved in the minivan segment). GM just never seemed to have a knack for producing a successful "in house" minivan.

The current Vue would have made a great addition to Buick's or GMC's lineup. A Nummi produced Vibe-like tall wagon could have replaced the 1st gen Vue.

Of course, creating a Saturn division or a Geo sub-brand wasn't necessary in the first place. If GM would have made plans to transform Oldsmobile into their import fighter, then a NUMMI produced compact car could have served as a first step effort in implementing that transformation (especially since the rebadged Cavalier/Sunbird based Firenza just didn't seem to cut it, naturally). The billions of dollars GM has wasted on launching Saturn, discontinuing Oldsmobile, attempting to transform Saturn, and now spinning off Saturn could have been better spent elsewhere (and that doesn't mean acquiring Saab or Hummer either).

Edited March 5, 2009 by cire

[PurdueGuy]

I'll vote tie between the L-Series and Ion. The L was an underwhelming car, and then proved to have issues on top of that (electronics, 3.0L engine issues). Where it should have been a product to move Saturn into more than just the small car market, something Saturn needed to move toward possibly being profitable (better margins), it was essentially a failure. But where the L-Series seemed to add insult to the injury of the long-in-the-tooth S-Series, the Ion added both insult and injury on top of both. While the drivetrain was solid, and the quadcoupe design a unique plus, the styling and interior turned off a lot of people, as did the drop in fuel economy compared to the S-Series. The result was sales that were a fraction of the S-Series.

So while the L-Series failed to help Saturn when it really needed it, the Ion caused a real blow to Saturn's core product - small cars. I'll call it a tie.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The Ion started it... What really sealed the deal though, IMO is when GM added the Aura and Sky Outlook instead of introducing the Ashtray (Astra) first.

The buyer goes to Saturn for small cars, right? Why not ease the shock by introducing a small car that carries the new "mission" first. Not to mention, the Astra was kind of outdated by the time it got here. Instead though, we have the brilliance at GM having a showroom that houses a $5 Ion, a 30K crossover, a sports car with more sex appeal than even most BMWs and a midsize that looks the part, but really might not have been.

I brought this point up a few years ago... GM needs to redefine all of it's divisions (one at a time) all at once, much like Nissan did with their renaissance. You can't introduce one model, wait 3 years and replace a woefully outdated model, then introduce another model as the first model is now becoming outdated. The consumer doesn't have the attention span for that.

[Drew Dowdell]

I agree with the 2nd generation Saturn S-Series. I was in the market for a new car at the time and decided to give the then newly introduced 2nd gen Saturn SL a test drive. It seemed very crude and uncompetitive compared to some of the car's competitors that I test drove the very same day. I ended up buying a competitor's product instead. GM spent billions launching this brand to counter the Asian imports, but they didn't do much after that to ensure that the brand stayed current and competitive. It was a very expensive yet ultimately halfhearted attempt by GM to regain lost market share and customers. I still think GM would have been better off by simply making drastic improvements within their existing divisional structure; they should have tried "thinking outside" of their existing box instead of creating a troublesome new box that they weren't able to maintain or sustain. Creating a new division with its own accompanying dedicated factory and dealership body isn't required to engineer/design/build class leading products and improve/overhaul customer service.

You don't beat the imports by trying to disguise yourself as an import. You beat the imports by providing superior domestic product.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The first one ...

[Z-06]

I do not think it was any particular product, but the lack of proper goal and business plan and then even more convoluted and lackadaisical future plans and goals.

Saturn started as a headless chicken with a neuron working to keep it alive, and then the final neuron got cut off when the last restructuring took place.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I do not think it was any particular product, but the lack of proper goal and business plan and then even more convoluted and lackadaisical future plans and goals.

Saturn started as a headless chicken with a neuron working to keep it alive, and then the final neuron got cut off when the last restructuring took place.

It wasn't a Neuron, it was the moron Roger B. Smith ...

[wildcat]

the new Buick Off-Roadmaster

Not bad, Oldsmoboi!

[Camino LS6]

The first one ...

Doomed from the moment of conception.

[Satty]

Saturn did reasonably well at first, it wasn't until they took forever to update the products, and add new products, that things went downhill. That said, GM probably would've been better off if the original Saturns were Chevrolets and the atrocious Cavaliers of the 90's had never been allowed to terrorize society.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Doomed from the moment of inception.

Fixed ...

[regfootball]

I think that crappy L-series did nothing to help them. I'll go with L-series as the Beginning of the End.

good point. that was a half hearted effort that missed the mark.

[regfootball]

LOL...i forgot about the RELAY!!!!!

OMG that hastened the death spiral.

[AH-HA]

Saturn as a concept was flawed from the beginning. Why would GM create an import fighting brand with a unique working relationship with the UAW when they should have been employed that basic strategy across the entire company. Instead they wasted billions in the process and have nothing to show for it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Welcome back!

And I agree.

[Camino LS6]

Saturn as a concept was flawed from the beginning. Why would GM create an import fighting brand with a unique working relationship with the UAW when they should have been employed that basic strategy across the entire company. Instead they wasted billions in the process and have nothing to show for it.

Absolutely!

And welcome back indeed, I'm very glad to see you here.

[cire]

Saturn as a concept was flawed from the beginning. Why would GM create an import fighting brand with a unique working relationship with the UAW when they should have been employed that basic strategy across the entire company. Instead they wasted billions in the process and have nothing to show for it.

Yep! That pretty much sums it up! Just think what those billions could have done for the 6 established divisions if GM would have given them appropriate, differentiated, well executed products and implemented some customer service initiatives to attract and retain customers. All of the "hallmarks" of the Saturn brand (polymer/composite body panels, no haggle price policies, superior customer service, unique labor relationship) seemed to have failed to permeate GM's corporate, divisional, and dealership structures.

The part that really blows my mind is that GM wasted all that money to launch a new division for a car that was supposed to be on par or superior to the Japanese imports of the period and it simply wasn't. Saturn reached near cult-like status during the first S-Series' model cycle solely due to some incredible hype and superior customer service tactics (which was the only really "cool" thing about Saturn). The product was not all that special (unless one happened to be partial towards composite body panels). The entire misguided experiment was based around a car that was arguably only marginally better than the corporation's other overly rebadged "in house" developed compact car (or perhaps maybe even subpar to the rebadged Toyota product being hocked at Chevrolet under the "Geo Prizm" name). Unbelievable!

[Satty]

I disagree, the firt S-cars were as good as, or better than, any other compact. When the S-cars went on sale, the other options in the class were the 4th gen Civic and 6th gen Corolla from Japan and the 2nd gen Cavalier,1st gen Escort and Dodge Shadow from the domestics. None of those cars were appreciably better, although the Civic, Corolla and Escort were redesigned a year after the S-cars hit lots, the Civic is the only one that it can be argued was a substantially better car. GM could've had a good thing with Saturn, but they screwed it up.

[ehaase]

I disagree, the firt S-cars were as good as, or better than, any other compact.

They were good cars that should have been the 1991 Cavalier.

[Satty]

They were good cars that should have been the 1991 Cavalier.

Yep, that probably would've been a much better way for GM to do it. They still could have done polymer to give Chevy something unique.

[PurdueGuy]

Saturn as a concept was flawed from the beginning. Why would GM create an import fighting brand with a unique working relationship with the UAW when they should have been employed that basic strategy across the entire company. Instead they wasted billions in the process and have nothing to show for it.

What a great idea! Except that management was so entrenched in their old ways that it would never have been able to happen.

[Camino LS6]

What a great idea! Except that management was so entrenched in their old ways that it would never have been able to happen.

Which is just another failing of management.

[PurdueGuy]

Which is just another failing of management.

Which is a big part of why I consider Saturn (the early Saturn) a success in many ways. They succeeded in having management that was willing to try new things, listen to customers, etc. They had manufacturing with outstanding productivity, quality (defined as consistently building the car correctly, opinions on design quality are another issue), customer satisfaction/buyer loyalty. Heck, they managed to make a profit in '94 with nothing but 3 body styles of one very inexpensive economy car that was built in the US under UAW contract. Many on here like to poo-poo the brand, but that's saying something.

IMO, GM should have recognized this success and supplied Saturn with the funds to properly design & build a second model, rather than letting the management in-fighting cut off Saturn and demand they make a profit in spite of having a lot of things stacked against them. While Spring Hill is a terrific facility, Saturn was having to pay for it while not being able to utilize much more than half of what it was built to do. That kind of overhead really hurts a brand's ability to make a profit, on top of the difficulty of making a profit on economy cars.

Truly, no car caused the death of Saturn, GM management politics did. If Chevy had a car that was selling 250-300k cars a year, and management refused to supply money for a redesign for 11 years, every one of you would throw an absolute fit. Instead, many of you are fine with it because you hate the brand.

[Satty]

If GM had become Saturn, we'd be in a great situation right now, instead Saturn was forced to become GM and everybody lost.

[Camino LS6]

Not exactly guys.

First Saturn has never made money. There has never been a return on the absolutely massive investment put into it. Second, the creation of Saturn was a tacit admission by then management that they had no idea how to manage the business. The creation of Saturn was a cowardly act by a foolish management team.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Saturn told GM, that GM didn't know what they were doing for 80 years ... I disagreed, as I own an example of GM's 60's technology, and I enjoy it to a great degree ... I never liked Saturn's "Don't ask, don't tell" philosophy about being part of GM, there always seemed something a little dishonest about that to me ... I also didn't like the fact that Oldsmobile was sacrificed for Saturn, and I'm still waiting for Saturn to pay back the millions GM invested in it's inception. Like Camino, I'm still waiting ...

Don't confuse my hate of Saturn with the car, that was reserved for Saturn's management, engineers, sales, and assembly staff, that I had issues with. They all seemed like mindless automatons, that always thought they were better than the rest of GM. I still laugh at the thought of Saturn wanting to run an assembly line using Windows NT ... Here's to you boys ...

[PurdueGuy]

Not exactly guys.

First Saturn has never made money. There has never been a return on the absolutely massive investment put into it. Second, the creation of Saturn was a tacit admission by then management that they had no idea how to manage the business. The creation of Saturn was a cowardly act by a foolish management team.

Depending on how you look at it... to me it seems much more like a brave admission that has since shown to be true.

How in the world would you expect Saturn to have made money?

Step 1: create an essentially separate company from the ground-up. Build a manufacturing facility capable of 500k+ cars a year. Then start with a small economy car (small profit margin).

Step 2: cut off additional funding, expecting this new company to muster up it's own funds to develop not only refreshes of it's existing car, but any additional models it may desire.

Step 3: when it's clear that a company with plenty of overhead selling only economy cars can't make enough money to fund new platform development (in spite of selling hordes of what they have), half-heartedly "throw them a bone" with a half-baked, gremin-prone reskin of a car not originally designed for their market (L-Series).

Step 4: kill everything that made the brand special & allowed them to sell 250-300k small cars a year to begin with, alienate all customers, complain that the company never made a profit.

Honestly, most of the people who hate Saturn have that hatred seated solidly in jealousy, and conveniently ignore the facts of the many ways in which Saturn kicked butt. You guys love to say how the car, or the money that made it, should have been fed into Chevy, or Cadillac, or whatever your favorite brand is. Oh no, GM killed Olds. Now you can't get a Grand Am with a rocketship on it.

[Blake Noble]

Sometimes I look at our driveway and wonder why we chose an Aura over a Charger.

[Satty]

Sometimes I look at our driveway and wonder why we chose an Aura over a Charger.

Because you have all your teeth?

(Hehehe....easy Dodge=white trash joke right thrr)

[Intrepidation]

Hey Satty,

[Satty]

Wanna go makeout in the bathroom?

[Intrepidation]

No thanks, but NOS will take you up on the offer.

[Satty]

Ewww.......I can do better than a collar-popper.

A side note, asking people if they want to go makeout in the bathroom is a great way to end an awkward silence.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Saturn's death was started by the ION. The L-Series had its problems but it wasn't as bad as the ION.

[Drew Dowdell]

Truly, no car caused the death of Saturn, GM management politics did. If Chevy had a car that was selling 250-300k cars a year, and management refused to supply money for a redesign for 11 years, every one of you would throw an absolute fit. Instead, many of you are fine with it because you hate the brand.

Show of hands. How many here are fine with the J-Body?

[ocnblu]

The J-body was never great, but it was good. It sold in good numbers. I still see a lot of old ones on the road. It could have been better with continuous improvements instead of being allowed to stagnate and fall so far behind in the public's perception. Using money to update the J body instead of creating Saturn could have put GM in a much better position in the compact car market.

Edited March 8, 2009 by ocnblu

[vonVeezelsnider]

Using money to update the J body instead of creating Saturn could have put GM in a much better position in the compact car market.

+1

[Robert Hall]

Speaking of Saturns, I recently caught up via LinkedIn with a buddy from grad school that I remember as a big Saturn fan in the mid '90s. Back then, he and his wife had 2--a first gen S-series and a 2nd gen S-series sedan. I was curious if he was still a Saturn fan--was pleasantly surprised to see he still is--wife has an Outlook now, he has an Aura and is thinking about getting a Sky next year for his 40th birthday. Cool to see someone loyal to a GM brand.

[Chicagoland]

Keeping the S series forever, and promoting the nerdy buyers who feared negotiations, instead of the products, killed them in long run

[ocnblu]

Selling "the deal" instead of the car has been a problem for GM. They need to start selling the car to build desirability among non-loyalists.