Autoextremist.com

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Excellent read!

I'd buy one the second it rolled off the trailer.

Enjoy!

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2009/...oextremist.html

Edited March 5, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[ocnblu]

"ASC", is that as in American Sunroof Corporation? If so, I love it. They might have the wherewithal to pull this off.

[PurdueGuy]

that's actually pretty danged HOT. And if Pontiac is going to be truely made into a performance niche, a car like this is very fitting.

[FAPTurbo]

Nice car, but the big news for me is the possibility of GM's scrapping of the 4.5L diesel, which would be the biggest load of 'stupid' on their part, or the US government's.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Captainbooyah

[Intrepidation]

Oh look, another Pontiac based one a Chevy, and you can tell which one it's based off of too. Although the Camaro is far more badass than the Cobalt, turning them into Pontiac is by changing the fascia and a few interior bits is a no no. That's not how you save a brand. The Firebird should look completely unique, IMO.

Also I don't care for the render. The front looks like an odd mix of old and new, with old being tacked onto the new, and the rear just looks like a tacky 90's Pontiac concept.

That won't save Pontiac.

My :twocents:

[Drew Dowdell]

I like the idea. But the Oldsmobile guy in me sees more '68 Toronado than '72 Firebird in that front clip. Good looking either way

[longtooth]

A Burt Reynolds 'Banditized' model would woo a few nostalgia buffs.

Then I'd like to see SLP do a number on it.

[G. David Felt]

Very Interesting and a solid debate issue for our group. I personally like the look but needs a few tweaks and like DF said, it should be unique to the brand not a rebadge.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Idealistically, I'd love a unique model.

But the money just isn't there... Maybe we could use this one as a starting point (since Trans Ams have ALWAYS been accepted as "better Camaros" anyway) and then make them more unique as time goes on.

[gm4life]

Great article. I would get a T/A over a Camaro anyday. Either way my son or I will own one of the "two" cars since the 'Bird is unlikely it will be a Camaro.

[Intrepidation]

Idealistically, I'd love a unique model.

But the money just isn't there... Maybe we could use this one as a starting point (since Trans Ams have ALWAYS been accepted as "better Camaros" anyway) and then make them more unique as time goes on.

That is the problem. You spend money on a half assed rebadge...which is what GM has been criticized for for years AND on a niche product. Neither will save Pontiac. I would rather see the money spend on fixing the Solstice's flaws and on actual adverting for the Solstice and G8 than on a rebadge of a car only diehard fans will care about.

If Pontiac (and GM) were to survive and make a profit again, then put the money down for a unique Firebird.

[turbo200]

omg, i have never seen that toronado before posted above, it is very slick and nicely done, very progressive and even very current. but to the post at hand, this is a case where good engineering and a good package are the basis for a good car. this is a case when a pure rebadge with differing sheetmetal that is used to create brand identity is right. this would be the right move. it's a shame that GM is adamant on no Camaro-firebird this time around because of the rebadge 'stigma' yet it's perfectly acceptable with the flimsy G3. that model is certainly worth repeating. rebading was never the problem, it's starting with a good solid base, offering a good reason for that model to exist, supplementing the brand and helping build the brand, and striving for different content so as to avoid overlapping entities and competing with one's self. for now, just differentiating the sheetmetal would be enough of a basis for me to call this solid business. it builds pontiac's brand, volume could be limited, it's very good looking, supplements Zeta's volume a tad, but most of all this is brand identity and recognition. people recognize trans am, recognize the looks, know what this stands for, and know what good thing it brings. if it could help some others into the pontiac line that otherwise wouldn't look at camaro or pontiac, then it's a solid run both ways. the future could bring more profit for more distinctive features and content.

[turbo200]

i like this rendering....a lot. the only part that is excessive and unartful are the rear taillamps, but i don't know a more direct way of connecting pontiac's history. perhaps a simple rectangle which would be less differentiated but still in line with the original firebird. the current rendering shows lamps that are too cartoonish. the front end is sober and aggressive on the same token, simply re-drawing a distinct and extreme charicature the original had that worked and was never overdone, as the firebird became in latter years.

It's too bad there isn't enough money to draw on a rich history of design language pontiac has had.

Edited March 5, 2009 by turbo200

[gm4life]

i like this rendering....a lot. the only part that is excessive and unartful are the rear taillamps, but i don't know a more direct way of connecting pontiac's history. perhaps a simple rectangle which would be less differentiated but still in line with the original firebird. the current rendering shows lamps that are too cartoonish. the front end is sober and aggressive on the same token, simply re-drawing a distinct and extreme charicature the original had that worked and was never overdone, as the firebird became in latter years.

It's too bad there isn't enough money to draw on a rich history of design language pontiac has had.

Couldn't agree more.

[buyacargetacheck]

Looks terrible (and derivative).

There's only one Firebird that would be a smash hit even in these times. 20,000 sales guaranteed. Zeta Trans Am based on the Gen 2 1977-78 styling, screaming chicken on the hood (serious!), an LS3 bored and stroked out to 400 cubic inches, 400 or TA6.6 badges. Black and gold paint. Shiny gold and silver honeycomb wheels. T-tops. Lots of stripes. My generation, which is entering their peak earning years, lusted for this car when children...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1978_Trans-Am.jpg

Edited March 5, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[Cory Wolfe]

Oh look, another Pontiac based one a Chevy, and you can tell which one it's based off of too. Although the Camaro is far more badass than the Cobalt, turning them into Pontiac is by changing the fascia and a few interior bits is a no no. That's not how you save a brand. The Firebird should look completely unique, IMO.

Also I don't care for the render. The front looks like an odd mix of old and new, with old being tacked onto the new, and the rear just looks like a tacky 90's Pontiac concept.

That won't save Pontiac.

My :twocents:

I completely agree. Although, it would be true to history.

[Cory Wolfe]

Looks terrible (and derivative).

There's only one Firebird that would be a smash hit even in these times. 20,000 sales guaranteed. Zeta Trans Am based on the Gen 2 1977-78 styling, screaming chicken on the hood (serious!), an LS3 bored and stroked out to 400 cubic inches, 400 badges. Black and gold paint. Shiny gold and silver honeycomb wheels. T-tops. Lots of stripes. My generation, which is beginning their peak earning years, lusted for this car when children...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1978_Trans-Am.jpg

Indeed. One of my favorites, though it may be a bit tacky for today's market.

Edited March 5, 2009 by blackviper8891

[buyacargetacheck]

Tacky is just what this market needs to stand out. Next up: big hair!!! I can't wait!!!

Indeed. One of my favorites, though it may be a bit tacky for today's market.

[Intrepidation]

Tacky is EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!!

(and it's been Pontiac's forte for years).

[buyacargetacheck]

Yep. Now Pontiac can put away the BMW costume and be true to herself. "You can't hide what's inside." --SpongeBob Squarepants

Tacky is EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!!

(and it's been Pontiac's forte for years).

[Chicagoland]

GM doesn't don't have the $$, and all the Pontiac purists will complain that it "doesn't look like the classic ones", and they'd also want a Pontiac V8 motor. The 04-06 GTO proved it and look at any Pontiac website, magazine, etc.

[daves87rs]

That is pure sex.....I'd buy one right after FOG does...(since he is bigger than me)

IF they can make it different, it is worth a shot.

And if it can run and play with new Camaro, why not?

[daves87rs]

GM doesn't don't have the $$, and all the Pontiac purists will complain that it "doesn't look like the classic ones", and they'd also want a Pontiac V8 motor. The 04-06 GTO proved it and look at any Pontiac website, magazine, etc.

Yeah, but that car looked like a giant Cavalier.

This actually looks like a Pontiac.....

[hyperv6]

I just love this place.

We all sit and complain about Pontiac just being Chevy's Bitch and then a hand full clamer all over another poor chop of a rebadged Chevy.

This is the crap that got Pontiac into this mess. While I alwaysed love the TA myself I agree a rebadged Camaro right now is the last thing GM needs.

GM has not money to make it, They have no money to market it, and GM will have a hard enough time selling Camaro's after the first year with the wonderfull economy we have [Things are not going to improve much for at least 2-4 years.

GM needs to sell its first line car which is a Camaro and not delute the market with a clone. [Ford even figured that out in the 80's on the Mustang]

A Pontiac with a few non rebadged American cars will do better than what they are doing now as they can really make them performanced based.

I looked at a G3 and said to my buddy this is why they are in the place they are now.

Time to stop living in the past. THis car would be worse for GM than Smokey and the Bandit 2 was for Burt and Smokey # was for Jerry Reed.

[turbo200]

I just love this place.

We all sit and complain about Pontiac just being Chevy's Bitch and then a hand full clamer all over another poor chop of a rebadged Chevy.

This is the crap that got Pontiac into this mess. While I alwaysed love the TA myself I agree a rebadged Camaro right now is the last thing GM needs.

GM has not money to make it, They have no money to market it, and GM will have a hard enough time selling Camaro's after the first year with the wonderfull economy we have [Things are not going to improve much for at least 2-4 years.

GM needs to sell its first line car which is a Camaro and not delute the market with a clone. [Ford even figured that out in the 80's on the Mustang]

A Pontiac with a few non rebadged American cars will do better than what they are doing now as they can really make them performanced based.

I looked at a G3 and said to my buddy this is why they are in the place they are now.

Time to stop living in the past. THis car would be worse for GM than Smokey and the Bandit 2 was for Burt and Smokey # was for Jerry Reed.

acadia and enclave are barely any more differentiated, there's no real difference in content or mission/purpose, they go after the same crowd of people, and are priced similarly. yet no one here seems to complain about those. in an ideal situation, GM would have been better managed and the Buick would have been even more luxurious outside and in and had better engines and driven better than the GMC.....but they didn't do that. this is much the same situation. they are esentially badge engineering jobs.....not platform sharing like an Audi A4 and a Passat. [A4 has much higher quality than the already superb Passat and it drives much sportier, the look of the passat is mainstream, while Audi design is clearly upper crust.]

EDIT: let's say the G8 had a twin at Chevrolet. people would not be complaining as much about that rebadge as they do the torrent, G3, or even the execution of G6. why? because those cars have a lot of poor execution, the first two are utter crap in many regards and totally not befitting of pontiac;s supposed role. people are complaining about the poor cars pontiac gets. you don't here a lot of people yelling about solstice/sky.......

Edited March 5, 2009 by turbo200

[Drew Dowdell]

G3/Aveo = Rebadge

G5/Cobalt = Rebadge

Acadia/Enclave = Platform sharing

Sky/Solstice = platform sharing

The Acadia and Enclave go for very different people. The GMC is for people who view themselves as tough and maybe a little outdoorsy. Hauling bags of mulch home in their SUV isn't above them. They tow their own boat to the ramp.

The Enclave is for people wanting a luxury SUV that exudes class and style. Something that wouldn't look at all out of place pulling up to some rich restaurant. Lowes can deliver the mulch. The boat stays at the yacht club.

[hyperv6]

acadia and enclave are barely any more differentiated, there's no real difference in content or mission/purpose, they go after the same crowd of people, and are priced similarly. yet no one here seems to complain about those. in an ideal situation, GM would have been better managed and the Buick would have been even more luxurious outside and in and had better engines and driven better than the GMC.....but they didn't do that. this is much the same situation. they are esentially badge engineering jobs.....not platform sharing like an Audi A4 and a Passat. [A4 has much higher quality than the already superb Passat and it drives much sportier, the look of the passat is mainstream, while Audi design is clearly upper crust.]

EDIT: let's say the G8 had a twin at Chevrolet. people would not be complaining as much about that rebadge as they do the torrent, G3, or even the execution of G6. why? because those cars have a lot of poor execution, the first two are utter crap in many regards and totally not befitting of pontiac;s supposed role. people are complaining about the poor cars pontiac gets. you don't here a lot of people yelling about solstice/sky.......

Just because they are doing it with other lines dose not make it right. Just because Audi and VW do it does not make it right unless they change the vehickes more.

I ok with platform sharing but to just put a new nose and tail on a car your going to not sell over 50,000 is not to bright. We already lost the F body onece due to poor marketing or the lack of and we also had one car in a market you not going to sell much over 100,000 in the best of times.

GM needs one model in this segment and only one. Why pee in the pool and hurt both?

Take the money wasted on a Camaro rebadge and bring in a good Holden with AWD in a smaller sedan and coupe that would be unlike anything Chevy offers or any other GM division.

Pontiac is much better off to do more deals like the G8 that gives us different product great products no other NA division sells. There would be less pressure for them to sell large numbers of models just as in the GTO and G8 case.

We all sit here and complain about badge engineering in the same market and here is a chance for Pontiac to cut clean and really be different . But why every time some idiot dose a concept photo a hand full of people who know better fall all over it?

The bottom line is if GM built a Fird it would sell for more money than the TA and off nothing more other than a styling change. It would sell in numbers smaller than 50,000 the first year and less every year later. These are not the same times or market as it was in the 70's. Even the Camaro is priamary a V6 car in GM's eyes. That is what they want and need to sell not the V8. If the V6 fails so does the Camaro.

Whats next someone will want a Screaming Chicken on the hood too?

[turbo200]

it sounds more to be like a personal camaro-bias on your part than you seeing the reason in my viewpoint. GM management and thier expectations and what they would do in the resultant situation [and thier propensity for killing Camaro programs] for such a car is a different issue; the reality of GM's cash-starved situation and Pontiac's limited product line is the reason why I would say such an idea had some soundness. normally my pretense for this kind of practice would be creative differentiation and maximizing platform for different segments. however, here we have gm cash starved, pontiac with little to no product. even in good situations, GM doesn't vary thier platform utilization, even in good times they don't create different vehicles for different segments off the same platform. especially this one is true: even in good times they don't understand the marketplace in order to create the right vehicles for the right segments of population that go after those products. hyundai's figured it out but not GM.

[PurdueGuy]

I can understand the sentiment that Pontiac needs to receive unique product, but I have to ask how unique it has to be. This presentation of a theoretical firebird doesn't share body panels, and surely not interior. If it's given drivetrain options different from the Camaro, I personally think that's about as good as we can hope for Pontiac anytime in the anywhere near future. If Pontiac isn't allowed to have any product unless it's on it's own platform (that's the only way to really avoid the "rebadge" comments), then you might as well shut the brand down now. It would be nice to see Pontiac get some cars that are hard to tell they're using the same basic platform as another GM car someday, but some of you will whine & moan if it doesn't happen yesterday, and it'd better not cost too much, and there had better be a refresh after 3 years, and... blah blah blah.

Might as well kill Pontiac now, GM can't afford to operate the brand in a way to keep even the fans from being cynical.

[ShadowDog]

In a better time, sure, giv'er. I'm not keen on this look, but that doesn't matter any.

In today's time, it won't help their situation.

[hyperv6]

it sounds more to be like a personal camaro-bias on your part than you seeing the reason in my viewpoint. GM management and thier expectations and what they would do in the resultant situation [and thier propensity for killing Camaro programs] for such a car is a different issue; the reality of GM's cash-starved situation and Pontiac's limited product line is the reason why I would say such an idea had some soundness. normally my pretense for this kind of practice would be creative differentiation and maximizing platform for different segments. however, here we have gm cash starved, pontiac with little to no product. even in good situations, GM doesn't vary thier platform utilization, even in good times they don't create different vehicles for different segments off the same platform. especially this one is true: even in good times they don't understand the marketplace in order to create the right vehicles for the right segments of population that go after those products. hyundai's figured it out but not GM.

I dopn't own a Camaro, never have owned one nor plan on owning one. If I were to buy a casr in this segment and had the choice of Pontiac I would choose the Pontiac. So don't give me any bias carp if you don't know me.

I am just looking at the reality that GM has too many models and too many in the same segment. When you have one platform and two car they need to be entirely different anymore.

Case in point I am good with the Zeta in this country as the G8 and Camaro are on it but reach two different groups. If yhey had gone ahead with the GTO as it was planned it was a two door but it also reached for a different group.

But a Bird and Camaro have always as would still reach for mostly the same demo.

It is not about bias but more about using the limited funds at GM to reach more buyers with less product. Something GM is going to have to do in the next few year.

When dealing with Pontiacs future one has to think with the brain these days not he heart.

I still feel the only reason Pontiac is still around is it is cheaper to keep them with a few models vs buying out the dealers.

GM's future needs to be and is going to be more direct where models in a market will not competer with other GM models. This is something GM needed to do years ago.

I am against the Bird just as I am against a G5, G3 or G6. I was never for the Sky and the Solstice. I know thy had to share to make the money work but imagine how much better the Solstice would have helped Pontiac if they did not have a Sky.

If Pontiac needs to offer GM models not shared with Chevy plain and simple and all need to be performance cars not reworked Chevy Aveos.

[Satty]

Chevy drops the Camaro, Pontiac picks it up as the Firebird. Everyone wins.

[hyperv6]

Chevy drops the Camaro, Pontiac picks it up as the Firebird. Everyone wins.

I would be ok with that but the problem is this.

Chevy sell more cars and Chevy get more say. Add that to the history that the Camaro always out sold the TA most of the time.

I would rather see Pontiac aim for perfromance cars that they can start selling in a year and keep selling into the future.

Lets face it the Camaro is set till 2016 but the GM problems and economy the end could be sooner.

Better if you need to retool then retool for the future. GM has a lot of good engine that can deliver performance and fuel economy. Put these Turbo V6 and 4 cyliner DI engines in smaller and lighter cars that stop, go and turn better than anyone else.

Hell, I have almost 300 HP 2.0 and have seen 30 MPG highway in a 3200 pound vehicle that turns 13's that is a daily driver. I have learned like many others it is not the cylinder count that matters.

You want to save GM and Pontiac you build for the future and stop living in the past as we are not going to relive the 60's again.

The present administration in DC already is working on things that will put an end to most of what we call fun cars. Even if we vote them out in 4 years the damage will be done. So it is time to reinvent the fun performance cars.

Like it or not change is something we are all going to have to live with as it is out of our hands now. Including new performance cars.

Edited March 7, 2009 by hyperv6

[Camino LS6]

I don't care if it makes sense, I like it.

Granted, I'd like it much more with the rest of the second gen curves intact, but I still like it.

Add the curves and it would look right at home next to a Solstice coupe.

[Blake Noble]

Looks terrible (and derivative).

There's only one Firebird that would be a smash hit even in these times. 20,000 sales guaranteed. Zeta Trans Am based on the Gen 2 1977-78 styling, screaming chicken on the hood (serious!), an LS3 bored and stroked out to 400 cubic inches, 400 or TA6.6 badges. Black and gold paint. Shiny gold and silver honeycomb wheels. T-tops. Lots of stripes. My generation, which is entering their peak earning years, lusted for this car when children...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1978_Trans-Am.jpg

in spirit.

I would execute it a little differently, but the 1977 - 1981 Trans Am was the Trans Am that defined the whole franchise, for better or for worse, and a new car should draw from those historic Firebirds. Seeing specific era-inspired front and rear clips chopped onto images of the F5 Camaro bores me right into a f@#king coma.

(When dreaming ...)