OK Romance language speakers, do you see anything wrong with this chart?

[Oracle of Delphi]

[ocnblu]

Where are the other 100 Dalmatians?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Where are the other 100 Dalmatians?

Silly boy, they are with Lady and the Tramp ... That would make a great porno title ...

Edited March 2, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[usonia]

Um, you lost me after Latin.

[Camino LS6]

Looks right to me.

[Lamar]

There are a couple of Spanish languages missing...

[Oracle of Delphi]

There are a couple of Spanish languages missing...

That's one thing, there is another ...

[trinacriabob]

Very cool. 3 questions/comments:

(1) where is the actual "Italian" listed instead of "Italian dialects?"

(2) I do not like Catalan...just don't like it. The funny thing is that textbook Spanish, as taught to American kids, is what is spoken in South America, and not in Spain. While I was visiting Spain, someone once said to me "usted habla un Espanol correcto, que no es el Castellano." I took that as a compliment.

(3) Is proximity indicated by the chart? In other words, I know Italian is closer to Spanish, yet French shows up closer. You'll like this...you know that, because of its position and "colonizations," Sicilian has absorbed words from French (accatare instead of comprare, and on and on) but it is freakily similar to Portuguese in structure...that is, the articles and prepositions in Sicilian are just like those of Portuguese instead of those of the "Sienese/Florentine" mother tongue. I wonder how that happened?

Bottom line: I picked the wrong major in college.

[trinacriabob]

One more thing:

The "road map" on this chart would make Sardinian unintelligble to Italians. It sounds pretty weird. Heck, they are closer to Spain than they are to Italy. I couldn't believe how many Spanish surnames are found throughout Sardinia: Palmas, Torres, etc..

Sardinia and Sicily are the best places to go in Italy if you want beach, bar none.

[ZL-1]

I'm just proud that Portuguese stems from 'vulgar' Latin: wouldn't want it any other way! How would one say 'f@#k off' in vulgar Latin?

[trinacriabob]

I'm just proud that Portuguese stems from 'vulgar' Latin: wouldn't want it any other way! How would one say 'f@#k off' in vulgar Latin?

Well, in Guido-land, it's "vaffanculo" (literally, it means something WORSE, but idiomatically, it means "eff off" or "go to hell") - how do you say "eff off" in Portuguese? (I may need to know that this summer).

[Oracle of Delphi]

Very cool. 3 questions/comments:

(1) where is the actual "Italian" listed instead of "Italian dialects?"

(2) I do not like Catalan...just don't like it. The funny thing is that textbook Spanish, as taught to American kids, is what is spoken in South America, and not in Spain. While I was visiting Spain, someone once said to me "usted habla un Espanol correcto, que no es el Castellano." I took that as a compliment.

(3) Is proximity indicated by the chart? In other words, I know Italian is closer to Spanish, yet French shows up closer. You'll like this...you know that, because of its position and "colonizations," Sicilian has absorbed words from French (accatare instead of comprare, and on and on) but it is freakily similar to Portuguese in structure...that is, the articles and prepositions in Sicilian are just like those of Portuguese instead of those of the "Sienese/Florentine" mother tongue. I wonder how that happened?

Bottom line: I picked the wrong major in college.

Bingo, where is the Standard Italian language which was formed from the dialects, also where are the Proto-Spanish, Proto-Portuguese and Proto-French languages? These too are missing.

[ZL-1]

Well, in Guido-land, it's "vaffanculo" (literally, it means something WORSE, but idiomatically, it means "eff off" or "go to hell") - how do you say "eff off" in Portuguese? (I may need to know that this summer).

I think I get the literal meaning of 'vaffanculo'...

In Portuguese you have an almost literal translation: 'vai-te foder'. Not a good thing to say very often, though.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm just proud that Portuguese stems from 'vulgar' Latin: wouldn't want it any other way! How would one say 'f@#k off' in vulgar Latin?

Our languages are all just descendants of what the common Roman soldiers spoke everyday.

I'm not really sure English should be considered a true Germanic language with so many root words coming from Latin and the influx of Norman French after the Normans conquered the Anglo-Saxons ...

After all Britannia was part of the Roman Empire for 500 years ...

Edited March 2, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think I get the literal meaning of 'vaffanculo'...

In Portuguese you have an almost literal translation: 'vai-te foder'. Not a good thing to say very often, though.

Similar to, Upper US ... The Northern US ...

[LeoC2]

How come no one ever asks where Latin derived from?

[Paolino]

Well, in Guido-land, it's "vaffanculo" (literally, it means something WORSE, but idiomatically, it means "eff off" or "go to hell") - how do you say "eff off" in Portuguese? (I may need to know that this summer).

I hate when my students hear from someone that it means FU and they show up to class all proud they know it. And I have to convince them, "First of all, you're wrong. Secondly, say it once and you'll be in detention for a week."

I think I get the literal meaning of 'vaffanculo'...

Go F yourself up the A. That's the closest meaning to it. But it has a really vicious tone behind it.

[longtooth]

Is it only me or has anyone else noticed that those Kardashian women from the TV are packing a sh*tload of sweater-meat?

[ocnblu]

[longtooth]

You don't know 'em?

Or do t*ts make ya crazy?

[Camino LS6]

Our languages are all just descendants of what the common Roman soldiers spoke everyday.

I'm not really sure English should be considered a true Germanic language with so many root words coming from Latin and the influx of Norman French after the Normans conquered the Anglo-Saxons ...

After all Britannia was part of the Roman Empire for 500 years ...

English is a mutt.

[longtooth]

English is a mutt.

Camino', it's the International language of aviation. woof

[Camino LS6]

Camino', it's the International language of aviation. woof

Mutts do have their advantages. :AH-HA_wink:

[longtooth]

Mutts do have their advantages. :AH-HA_wink:

Here's a mutt agreeing with you.

[Croc]

Our languages are all just descendants of what the common Roman soldiers spoke everyday.

I'm not really sure English should be considered a true Germanic language with so many root words coming from Latin and the influx of Norman French after the Normans conquered the Anglo-Saxons ...

After all Britannia was part of the Roman Empire for 500 years ...

It's about structure. English is Germanic in structure. English does not conjugate verbs like Romance languages, and nouns do not have masculine/feminine connotations. Much of our vocabulary is derived from other languages, particularly French when discussing governmental, legal, and some cultural concepts, but the structure of the language is solidly Germanic.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It's about structure. English is Germanic in structure. English does not conjugate verbs like Romance languages, and nouns do not have masculine/feminine connotations. Much of our vocabulary is derived from other languages, particularly French when discussing governmental, legal, and some cultural concepts, but the structure of the language is solidly Germanic.

You do know I have a degree in Romance languages so I know how to conjugate verbs, and I am a native speaker of German so I know what constitutes a Germanic language. However I don't believe English should be considered a truly Germanic language, Camino is more correct when he called it a mutt. I've read several books by linguist over the last few months who think English should be reclassified. I guess if they can reclassify the planet Pluto, it should be easy as pie to reclassify English as a Germanic/Latin bastard.

[trinacriabob]

it should be easy as pie to reclassify English as a Germanic/Latin bastard.

That's what I've always heard - that it's a Teutonic/Latin hybrid.

One question, though. What enabled us (via the English language) to escape the ridiculous "tu/usted, tu/vous, tu/lei?" I really resent this and have fouled up here a time or two, only to be reprimanded by some elitist $h! who was offended.

Edited March 3, 2009 by trinacriabob

[Lamar]

Our languages are all just descendants of what the common Roman soldiers spoke everyday.

I'm not really sure English should be considered a true Germanic language with so many root words coming from Latin and the influx of Norman French after the Normans conquered the Anglo-Saxons ...

After all Britannia was part of the Roman Empire for 500 years ...

In the same way, modern Spanish has had a LOT of influence from the Arab occupation for seven centuries. Does this mean Spanish shouldn't be a true Romance language?

[trinacriabob]

In the same way, modern Spanish has had a LOT of influence from the Arab occupation for seven centuries. Does this mean Spanish shouldn't be a true Romance language?

...and those Arabs would have largely been the Moors crossing over at, or near, Gibraltar.

The Moorish influence in the architecture of Spanish Andalucia and the Portuguese Algarve is really interesting. In fact, a bunch of the area names down there, such as Algarve and Albufeira, have Moorish roots.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's what I've always heard - that it's a Teutonic/Latin hybrid.

One question, though. What enabled us (via the English language) to escape the ridiculous "tu/usted, tu/vous, tu/lei?" I really resent this and have fouled up here a time or two, only to be reprimanded by some elitist $h! who was offended.

I'm still thinking about that, what I don't understand is when other Germanic tribes came to Latinized areas they generally adopted the Roman tongue. The reason many of these people invaded Rome was because they wanted to be a part of Rome, not because they wanted to destroy it.

Even the Norse who came to Normandy abandoned Norse in favor of Romance. That may have been because of population issues too (it could have been because it was mostly the men who married the local Romance-speaking women, who spoke to their children in their Romance tongue), the Franks did the same thing. The Franks took over Gaul and learned the Gallo-Romance, which later became French. They thought it was a prestige language.

I don't know why Britannia didn't follow this model, but my aim is to find out.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[trinacriabob]

I'm still thinking about that, what I don't understand is when other Germanic tribes came to Latinized areas they generally adopted the Roman tongue. The reason many of these people invaded Rome was because they wanted to be a part of Rome, not because they wanted to destroy it.

Even the Norse who came to Normandy abandoned Norse in favor of Romance. That may have been because of population issues too (it could have been because it was mostly the men who married the local Romance-speaking women, who spoke to their children in their Romance tongue), the Franks did the same thing. The Franks took over Gaul and learned the Gallo-Romance, which later became French. They thought it was a prestige language.

Well, notice that the Aryan-Nordic types come to Italy and Spain to vacation, buy condos, retire and some want so badly "to be" Italian or Spanish, but the people in those countries don't care to visit those places and really don't even like them very much.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, notice that the Aryan-Nordic types come to Italy and Spain to vacation, buy condos, retire and some want so badly "to be" Italian or Spanish, but the people in those countries don't care to visit those places and really don't even like them very much.

Someone should have told my father that ...

[trinacriabob]

Someone should have told my father that ...

My father had a completely different experience. Before emigrating, he moved from southern Italy to Bolzano to work. It was very clear that, up there near the border with Switzerland and Austria, a "terrone" (derogatory word for a southern Italian who was presumed to have working-class agrarian roots) was not welcomed. He lasted less than 1 year.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My father had a completely different experience. Before emigrating, he moved from southern Italy to Bolzano to work. It was very clear that, up there near the border with Switzerland and Austria, a "terrone" (derogatory word for a southern Italian who was presumed to have working-class agrarian roots) was not welcomed. He lasted less than 1 year.

You are a funny man Roberto ...

[the_yellow_dart]

My father had a completely different experience. Before emigrating, he moved from southern Italy to Bolzano to work. It was very clear that, up there near the border with Switzerland and Austria, a "terrone" (derogatory word for a southern Italian who was presumed to have working-class agrarian roots) was not welcomed. He lasted less than 1 year.

I've had a guy who grew up in Northern Italy tell me that all the southern Italians are lazy slobs because it's too hot down there to get anything done. The US is not the only place with prejudice against the south.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I've had a guy who grew up in Northern Italy tell me that all the southern Italians are lazy slobs because it's too hot down there to get anything done. The US is not the only place with prejudice against the south.

There is prejudice against the South in the USA? Not in Texas there ain't, cause we'll kick their Yankee ass north of the Red river ...