Isolationism

[Camino LS6]

I'm starting to see some appeal to the concept.

Discuss.

[longtooth]

It could start with playing the devil's advocate in favor of continuing our so-called free trade policies.

Try seeing it from their pov and build your argument.

[vonVeezelsnider]

If America went Isolationist, Canada would self destruct because we have nobody to sell our $h! too... so um, No Thanks.

[Camino LS6]

It could start with playing the devil's advocate in favor of continuing our so-called free trade policies.

Try seeing it from their pov and build your argument.

At this point it is less an argument than a vagrant thought of another way forward in a changing world. The seed is there, but it hasn't germinated into a solid position just yet.

I think it might lead to a re-definition of exactly what isolationism really means, but I have to chew on it a bit longer.

[Satty]

Not our problem

[Camino LS6]

Not our problem

I can think of instances where saying just that could have saved us untold troubles.

Same goes for this one:

Not our business.

[Camino LS6]

If America went Isolationist, Canada would self destruct because we have nobody to sell our $h! too... so um, No Thanks.

Not in the way I'm thinking of it.

I'm not merely thinking about international trade here.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That may cause more wars than you think. During WWII Hitler went as far as he did because the USA was an isolationist nation and wanted no parts of another world war.

Saddam asked the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq what would be the US position if it were to invade a neighboring country. The US Ambassador said the US would consider that an internal Arab problem. Within days Iraq invaded Kuwait.

[Camino LS6]

That may cause more wars than you think. During WWII Hitler went as far as he did because the USA was an isolationist nation and wanted no parts of another world war.

Saddam asked the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq what would be the US position if it were to invade a neighboring country. The US Ambassador said the US would consider that an internal Arab problem. Within days Iraq invaded Kuwait.

My notion of finding a new way forward doesn't include blatant stupidity.

Absolutes are never adequate answers.

[Camino LS6]

It occurs to me that even if Obama's agenda meets with success across the board, that success would just leave us with a more stable version of the same country we've all been dissatisfied with for years.

In other words, his plans have "getting things back to normal" as a goal, and I'm beginning to question the value of "normal".

[longtooth]

At this point it is less an argument than a vagrant thought of another way forward in a changing world. The seed is there, but it hasn't germinated into a solid position just yet.

I think it might lead to a re-definition of exactly what isolationism really means, but I have to chew on it a bit longer.

Merely advocate for how the Chinese or Indian peasantry can be exploited indefinitely for the cheap labor that they provide.

Yet throughout our Nation's history their labor was exploited here. Building tunnels while the Trans-Continental Railroad was under construction.

We still hire illegal immigrants to do the jobs our youth find offensive.

The presence of these illegal migrant day-laborers serves to hold down the prevailing wages in the regions where they're concentrated. Look at California. Arnold Schwarzenegger may as well be El Presidente of Northern Mexico for those people under his care.

In the Princeton/Plainsboro area where my sweetie works they have had an influx of foreign nationals invited to come here under the auspices of the H-1B visa program.

Many folks have no idea how far down-the-river we have already been sold.

[Oracle of Delphi]

My notion of finding a new way forward doesn't include blatant stupidity.

Absolutes are never adequate answers.

Have you thought about who would be handling this Isolationism? It would be the same politicians that are handling the loans for GM ...

[loki]

the concept behind the word would mean individually (or families) we'd have to be self sufficient. as a nation we'd have to be that too... it could be theoretically possible, if people wanted to do without quite a few things... but before we got there, we'd have to fundamentally change the idea that gov't can do more good than bad (not sure how i mean this...?). becoming isolationists would grow certain businesses bigger, and practically kill others... like GM, and other international businesses

the good that would come would be quick increases in mining and manufacturing jobs, given enough knowledgeable people to work in those sectors... we'd have a big influx of military men and women back into this country (something that should happen anyway)

the bad would out weigh the good, in the long run, i don't think people would be content in an "isolated" country.

isolationism would either require much more gov't or people practially being uber-nationalistic ( edit: /conservative, but not as in libertarian conservative /edit).... ideas on this thought?

ideas on the rest of my post?

Edited February 28, 2009 by loki

[Camino LS6]

Have you thought about who would be handling this Isolationism? It would be the same politicians that are handling the loans for GM ...

Good point.

I'll have to consider a fix for that as well.

[Camino LS6]

the concept behind the word would mean individually (or families) we'd have to be self sufficient. as a nation we'd have to be that too... it could be theoretically possible, if people wanted to do without quite a few things... but before we got there, we'd have to fundamentally change the idea that gov't can do more good than bad (not sure how i mean this...?). becoming isolationists would grow certain businesses bigger, and practically kill others... like GM, and other international businesses

the good that would come would be quick increases in mining and manufacturing jobs, given enough knowledgeable people to work in those sectors... we'd have a big influx of military men and women back into this country (something that should happen anyway)

the bad would out weigh the good, in the long run, i don't think people would be content in an "isolated" country.

isolationism would either require much more gov't or people practially being uber-nationalistic.... ideas on this thought?

ideas on the rest of my post?

Your post (and Longtooth's) are giving me a good reference point to work from as to the traditional definition of isolationist thought.

That helps quite a bit as I think about how to differentiate my idea from that traditional theme.

[longtooth]

Your post (and Longtooth's) are giving me a good reference point to work from as to the traditional definition of isolationist thought.

That helps quite a bit as I think about how to differentiate my idea from that traditional theme.

I think terminology can hamstring this effort.

The rest of the world having become accustomed to dumping product below cost in some cases for decades would howl for certain.

We could term it maintaining our sovereign integrity.

It could result in self-sufficiency in meeting our energy needs.

Or closer to that goal.

[Intrepidation]

So..are you just thinking about this for fun?

[Camino LS6]

I think terminology can hamstring this effort.

The rest of the world having become accustomed to dumping product below cost in some cases for decades would howl for certain.

We could term it maintaining our sovereign integrity.

It could result in self-sufficiency in meeting our energy needs.

Or closer to that goal.

This post edges much closer to my thinking.

A main tenet of the idea is the need to look within.

[Camino LS6]

So..are you just thinking about this for fun?

I guess I am.

I have a thing for philosophical thinking.

[Intrepidation]

Just wondering.

[Camino LS6]

Going AFK for just a bit - have to walk Arkus and hook up my snowplow.

Keep the ideas coming!

[trinacriabob]

Sounds idealistic, and camino IS an idealist, but it's not workable. We are irrevocably intertwined with the rest of the world and, with more people in the US that can be categorized as "recent" immigrants, that's even less likely to happen.

However, I like the idea. That's why I talk about Portugal and Uruguay so much...because I would love to hole up in a quiet corner of either of those two countries and just say "f@#k everybody and everything," but I have to work and can't afford that.

[longtooth]

Sounds idealistic, and camino IS an idealist, but it's not workable. We are irrevocably intertwined

What was invoked by man can be revoked.

The United States needs many things at present.

The world will need to make do with smaller displays of our largesse.

Charity begins at home.

Time for some reciprocity.

Edited February 28, 2009 by longtooth

[Camino LS6]

What was invoked by man can be revoked.

The United States needs many things at present.

The world will need to make do with smaller displays of our largesse.

Charity begins at home.

Time for some reciprocity.

Again, in tune with the direction I'm heading with this.

[longtooth]

Again, in tune with the direction I'm heading with this.

It's in our interest and needn't even be retaliatory.

How the rest of our 'trading partners' view it is another matter.

No one likes it when a dumbass finally wises up.

[Camino LS6]

It's in our interest and needn't even be retaliatory.

How the rest of our 'trading partners' view it is another matter.

No one likes it when a dumbass finally wises up.

Exactly.

But there is more to it than just that. So many aspects of our national status quo are not sustainable, and I believe that our priorties must shift to address that fact.

[Camino LS6]

I'm seeing this idea as a counterpoint to blind globalism based on a least-common-denominator averaging of all things social and financial.

Independence is key.

A vibrant, imaginative, and inventive culture need not pander to this overbearing tyranny of multitudes.

[longtooth]

The infiltration of crimi-grant labor, border jumpers alone is a plague in of itself.

[loki]

taking it in another way, more personal level... isolationism and indepence can coexist, but they're not same.

[loki]

The infiltration of crimi-grant labor, border jumpers alone is a plague in of itself.

yes, but ideally people should beable to cross freely, as long as they are known (to authorities) to have crossed.... and not be people with blantantly bad backgrounds.

[Camino LS6]

All of my life (and longer) our leaders have been claiming the US to be " the greatest nation on Earth".

I think that it is high time that we work a bit harder at actually being what we claim and claiming it less or not at all.

Most of the hatred directed at us stems from this hypocritical exclamation.

It undermines us and offends the world, the irony of this is that if we quietly worked at supporting this assertion, we would gain genuine respect while futhering our own cause and that of the whole world through our interaction.

I think it's time to put our own house in order.

[longtooth]

Decades of repair work ahead of us.

Getting a slender majority to agree will take some doing.

Maybe being confronted with compelling evidence such as what we've seen over the last six months might sway more and sooner.

The civics lesson aphorisms regarding the U.S. as being the best, biggest bad asses on the planet are more stale now than ever.

I second your motion 'Camino.

I've got at least 90% sympathy from family members (voiced informally of course) for the Great Turnaround to commence.

See you later. Going out in a little while likely for the rest of the evening.

[longtooth]

yes, but ideally people should beable to cross freely, as long as they are known (to authorities) to have crossed.... and not be people with blantantly bad backgrounds.

Yet not be allowed to remain here indefinitely.

Come/Go.

Limited length of stay.

[Camino LS6]

Decades of repair work ahead of us.

Getting a slender majority to agree will take some doing.

Maybe being confronted with compelling evidence such as what we've seen over the last six months might sway more and sooner.

The civics lesson aphorisms regarding the U.S. as being the best, biggest bad asses on the planet are more stale now than ever.

I second your motion 'Camino.

I've got at least 90% sympathy from family members (voiced informally of course) for the Great Turnaround to commence.

See you later. Going out in a little while likely for the rest of the evening.

Thanks for the endorsement!

And more importantly, the discussion.

I want to think about this a bit more before I spout off again anyway.

[mustang84]

I think that it is high time that we work a bit harder at actually being what we claim and claiming it less or not at all.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of average Americans who share the same unquestioning belief. Not only will you have to shake up the beliefs of our leaders, you will have to shake up the beliefs of the majority of the citizen body. There are plenty that think America is fine the way it is and are unwilling to look at it from a critical perspective.

[buyacargetacheck]

Would your version of isolationism include slashing the military down to a truly "defensive" role? Eliminating the vast majority of the 700+ installations we have around the world? Would you recommend abandoning the Carter Doctrine? Since we import 3/4 of our crude oil what are some of the ways we could prepare our citizens for a life without personal automobiles?

[balthazar]

Camino / longtooth/ et al : Count me in. It amazes me we can cut off our own feet

merely to appease others internationally, and shrug our shoulders at the same time

like there's no other way.

I've been waiting/hoping for a new line of thought like this for years. Sign me up.

Edited March 1, 2009 by balthazar

[loki]

Camino / longtooth/ et al : Count me in. It amazes me we can cut off our own feet

merely to appease others internationally, and shrug our shoulders at the same time

like there's no other way.

I've been waiting/hoping for a new line of thought like this for years. Sign me up.

Washington told us to be permanent allies with none, friendly to all (who don't attack us)

....basically Sweetums from muppets, hehe.

that ended around WWI if i remember correctly....

The U.N. is horrible for our national sovereignty... and other countries' sovereignty too

[loki]

Awesome comic

and

[§carlet §wordfish]

I have given quite a bit of thought to becoming a mountain man.

[Z-06]

That may cause more wars than you think. During WWII Hitler went as far as he did because the USA was an isolationist nation and wanted no parts of another world war.

PCS I think you are wrong here. Hitler attacked US because he became a megalomaniac. The reason why he attacked Russia at the same time is the reason why he attacked US. With his Luftwafte pounding Brits he thought Europe was won and it was time to spread his wings faster. Actually the ploy from US was brilliant to keep itself safe and sound while others duked out.

As with Iraq it was quite the contrary. By secretly supporting Iraq against Iran, US meddled too much into Middle-East. Saddam thought he would get no response for his deed against Kuwait. Had he attacked a more extremist nation like Syria he would have perhaps got out of it. But he chose one of the most liberal Middle East nation.

[Camino LS6]

Would your version of isolationism include slashing the military down to a truly "defensive" role? Eliminating the vast majority of the 700+ installations we have around the world? Would you recommend abandoning the Carter Doctrine? Since we import 3/4 of our crude oil what are some of the ways we could prepare our citizens for a life without personal automobiles?

Isssues to be addressed without doubt, but making any such assumptions doesn't necessarily follow.

The idea of this is still forming for me, so such concerns are simply more data for me to work with at this point.

For now, let's just say that we need to learn that sometimes the best course of action is to do this:

[Camino LS6]

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of average Americans who share the same unquestioning belief. Not only will you have to shake up the beliefs of our leaders, you will have to shake up the beliefs of the majority of the citizen body. There are plenty that think America is fine the way it is and are unwilling to look at it from a critical perspective.

If we don't apply that critical perspective, we just might "perish from the earth" as a nation.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

PCS I think you are wrong here. Hitler attacked US because he became a megalomaniac. The reason why he attacked Russia at the same time is the reason why he attacked US. With his Luftwafte pounding Brits he thought Europe was won and it was time to spread his wings faster. Actually the ploy from US was brilliant to keep itself safe and sound while others duked out.

As with Iraq it was quite the contrary. By secretly supporting Iraq against Iran, US meddled too much into Middle-East. Saddam thought he would get no response for his deed against Kuwait. Had he attacked a more extremist nation like Syria he would have perhaps got out of it. But he chose one of the most liberal Middle East nation.

No, there is a difference. Chamberlain and other European leaders tried to appease Hitler through pure diplomacy. Of course Diplomacy utterly fails when someone wants something anyways. Churchill was a vocal opponent of Hitler and believed that Hitler needed to be disposed of before he became a threat. Protesters took to the streets and labled him a warmonger, not using diplomacy to its fullest extent etc etc. Of course within a short time it became blatantly obvious that Churchill was correct.

Sad to think that the majority of the war could have been averted if Churchill was able to get France on board and take out Hitler before the German war machine was running fast enough to start WW2.

Now with Iraq/Iran, that's just called a shadow war which is a different form of diplomacy.

Unfortunately, over the course of time, America has become the Police of the world because Europe would rather just criticize us than take the initiative on anything and of course Russia is always looking for new ways to reestablish itself as a Superpower.

Perhaps America should just take a break, let the EU handle all the big world problems (the EU would then become the 'evil empire' of the world, same way some people hate the Police). After many many years, the EU would probably come to the realization that diplomacy does not work in every case and end up being just like the US... hated by the world.

Of course, with America on hiatus from large global problems, i could see Russia attempting more power grabs in the Eurasian area, since Russia does not appear to take many threats from Western Europe seriously.

Nay, if you seriously want a restoration of AMERICAN sovereignty, of the sovereignty of the people within that country, people need to adopt a seriously different mindset.

1) membership in the UN would need to be terminated (it weakens our Sovereignty, plus the UN really has no bite to it without a standing army, and the UN having a standing army is a serious weakening of sovereignty).

2) Withdrawal from NATO, once again this weakens our Sovereignty, we should not be pulled into some conflict because of a treaty.

3) Withdrawal from any form of "market agreement" such as NAFTA. This DOES NOT MEAN that we cannot have free trade with those countries, just that active economic co-operation reduces our sovereignty.

4) Getting away from Fiat currency. Currency is held as a "tool" of the fed, they can essentially do whatever they want with the currency. This allows for potentially massive effects on the economy (see extended periods of loose monetary policy and problems that result). As such, currency would need to be placed back on some commodity standard (Gold and Silver?). This would avail the people of this country from tampering of our currency from our own government, restoring personal sovereignty (or rights as they are referred to in the constitution).

5) People need to be willing to occasionally have to "spill blood to rejuvenate the tree of liberty." Diplomacy inherently means compromise, if you have to compromise on your core beliefs, what have you gained? The reason America can generally get what it wants is because other countries know that failure to accept an American position may mean "action" will be taken against them. That is the reason the Soviets attempted to infiltrate America through putting people in to protest warmongering etc etc, because that was a way to reduce the strength of American negotiations. If American's would actively protest against what the government does militarily, then that weakens that card the government has (not that protestation is wrong of course, its a right of every man and woman who are citizens of this great nation, however all actions can have consequences unseen (including the heavy handed approach).

The Point is, even in a relatively isolationist America, the rest of the world has to believe that any attempts to undermine America, any attempts to attack America, will be met with serious, resolved, and bitter consequences to those who attempt such things.

Oh, and of course a bit of healthy nationalism would not hurt. But be prepared for a long haul to bring manufacturing back.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[Camino LS6]

Well Ricer, thanks for all of that input.

Much to digest there.

[loki]

Great post Ricer.

yes the rule of law would be nice to bring back... especially #4 seeing it's only congress' authority to control our currency (gold and silver)

healthy bit of nationalism... as in how it was for WW2? we love our country, don't F with us! lol

[Camino LS6]

I think I might settle for merely having a national identity - we currently don't as far as I can see.

[loki]

I think I might settle for merely having a national identity - we currently don't as far as I can see.

you mean like uncle sam? or the bald eagle, or the.... yeah. hehe it'd be great if we were once again the "shining city on the hill"

[longtooth]

you mean like uncle sam? or the bald eagle, or the.... yeah. hehe it'd be great if we were once again the "shining city on the hill"

imo, we never were.

Our legend, our myth.

It was all fabricated from tawdry, jingoistic rhetoric. (again imo)

[Camino LS6]

imo, we never were.

Our legend, our myth.

It was all fabricated from tawdry, jingoistic rhetoric. (again imo)

But we did once have a national identity, or at least a commonality that held us together.

Now, not so much.