Opel to spin off, GM will retain stake

[gmcbob]

That's hard for me to answer right now, after all I'm coming up on 20 years of service in April of this year. I started my career in the Arlington, TX assemble plant, near Dallas, through the years I've worked in so many divisions of GM (CPC - Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Croup, BOC - Buick-Oldsmobile-Cadillac, LAD - Lansing Automotive Division, Saturn, Opel, GME). I am very loyal to CPF, if he goes to Opel, I may go too, if he stays with GME, I may too, however because of him the door for me to go to another German car manufacturer has opened up for me should I choose to go through it. With GM at the crossroads that it seems to be, I need to choose carefully.

I do blame GMNA for many things it did and even for things it failed to do, squandered opportunities as it were, GM could have been so much better than it is today, what a shame. Perhaps I'll write a book about it someday, then again I doubt it would sell, because the American public doesn't give a rats ass about it's own car industry.

I think a book about GM (from a modern day insider) would sell. Trust me, if goofy coffee table books about designer bathrooms can sell, then a book about the world's largest car maker would sell too.

My Dad worked for GM, starting off with Chevrolet in the 60s and then as a "Zone Manager" for Buick during the 70s and 80s. He went back to work indirectly for GM in the late 90s / early 2000s doing work auditing their dealer network (through a 3rd party contractor). During that time period, he would tell me all the time he truly felt that GM had lost their way - big time. He started predicting that GM would continue to drastically lose market share until they were a complete shadow of themselves by 2010. He was right on the money. His favorite comment was that GM didn't know "whether they were afoot or on horseback". But I bring this up because he was the quintessential car guy and over the years, GM and their products meant a lot to him (especially the products that were built during his years of employment there of course). It really bothered him, even after he got out of that industry for a while, to see Honda and Toyota steal away their business. It must have really sucked to see something you work hard to build and defend more or less get taken away from you by mismanagement and bad public perception.

Incidentally, you're making it sound like Opel and GME will be two different companies, yet the articles are saying GM would retain a certain percentage stake in Opel. Would not working for Opel mean that you're still 50% GM? Just wondering.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably jump ship. The only way I'd stay on board and try to fix GM would be if I were independently wealthy and I could afford to be suddenly let go.

On Second thought, if I were independently wealthy, I'd probably just buy a really nice ranch up near Durango, Colorado in the Rocky Mountains and spend my days hiking, fishing and drinking good wine and beer.

[Chazman]

Perhaps I'll write a book about it someday, then again I doubt it would sell, because the American public doesn't give a rats ass about it's own car industry.

Hey, I'd buy it!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Incidentally, you're making it sound like Opel and GME will be two different companies, yet the articles are saying GM would retain a certain percentage stake in Opel. Would not working for Opel mean that you're still 50% GM? Just wondering.

Legally they will be, Opel/Vauxhall will be it's own company again with GM having a 50% share in it, that is until they sell that share to help repay the Federal loans that they just got and are trying to get.

GME will be tasked to sell Chevys and Cadillacs in Europe ...

I'd like to see Opel/Vauxhall and Saab merge, it's only a matter of time until GM has to spin off GMDAT and GM Holden to pay back it debts. Hopefully what's left of the old GM family will reemerge minus GMNA, or each unit could go its own way. I subscribe to only the strong survive, and perhaps that's how it should be with GM too.

[Chazman]

GME will be tasked to sell Chevys and Cadillacs in Europe ...

Meaning a more concerted effort than previously?

[turbo200]

In...... errrrrr....... Canada?

Seriously now: Perhaps it's not in Opel models themselves, but the way Saturn was built as abrand. GM wanted Saturn to change its image from 'budget' to 'Euro', but all it got at 1st was a rebodied G6 with a Vectra-like front end... and when it got the Astra, Vue, and so on, where was the massive advertising/awareness-building campaign?

oh no one is believing your nonsense. all that logic and such.

but seriously, no one serious person believes the opel product under the Saturn example is a good measurement for how well Opel develops a product or can compete [in our market at least].

i see a lot more distaste/disregard/bias for Opel with some of the people less in the know here. obviously there is a perception out there regarding Opel, and obviously for a long time it has been less than favorable, and still the last gen vectra was referred to as a secretary's car. the corsa/astra/antara may be bland, but they were much better engineered than what came in the past and better designed. insignia is a huge improvement in design and quality, as will be the next astra surely. astra is already one of the best selling cars in Europe, corsa was right there with it for a time. i also know enough to see this doesn't ultimately have a bearing or give an indication of opel's financial prosperity.

[turbo200]

This might be a good thing for all concerned.

much of the purported class leading product GM has coming has had Opel's hand in development.

[Intrepidation]

much of the purported class leading product GM has coming has had Opel's hand in development.

Name more than one please.

[turbo200]

Meaning a more concerted effort than previously?

with only chev and caddy to work with the platforms and models have the chance to be a lot more consolidated and focused. which could end up being a really good thing for Cadillac. that alpha platform sounds like a really necessary item at an independent and global Cadillac.

[turbo200]

Name one please.

I'll do more.

Epsilon II had its development center in Germany. it was then taken and accomodated for local markets, but the core development of the architercture in Germany.

Delta II core development center in Germany.

[Intrepidation]

It's not class leading until we actually have them on sale to be tested,the Insignia is the only one out right now. I don't know if it is class leading or not, but if it is that is only one. The CTS, CTS-V, and teh GMT-900s are and were (respectively) the class leaders and were not developed in Europe.

[MyerShift]

Now I hear GMDAT is seeking their freedom too, looks like all of GM's children want to go their own way...

I am shocked GM hasn't ditched frigging Daewoo (GMDAT) already.

They seem to be the least useful out of all GM's troubles.

For some odd reason, I must say, I loved the way the facelifted Vectra looked, the way the Astra looks (and drives) and so, I must say that I have an affection for Opel I cannot describe or justify. Nor is it neccesarily deserving of me being a fan, but believe me, I'd drive an Opel.

Good luck to Opel.

Good luck to GM.

Good luck to Chrysler.

Good luck USA.

Good luck VW AG with its Porsche hedgefund.

[turbo200]

It's not class leading until we actually have them on sale to be tested,the Insignia is the only one out right now. I don't know if it is class leading or not, but if it is that is only one. The CTS, CTS-V, and teh GMT-900s are and were (respectively) the class leaders and were not developed in Europe.

never mentioned GMNA and respective product, reread the string of posts. as for insignia, look around and you'll find some video reviews, they rave about it. the ones we'll get here have been localized by GM DAT and GMNA plus Saab has done thier 9-5 i presume. it'll be interesting if we get the full lineup plus insignia to see how each compares.

now i am not one to believe Opel to be perfect, but at least with astra and insignia they prove they know what they are doing with those respective segments. more than GMNA, which always seems to do 5 things on a car to shoot themselves in the foot.

[Intrepidation]

Except it wasn't until the current gen products that they actually started to become competitive, and even then, cars like the Astra have pretty noticeable flaws.

[MyerShift]

Except it wasn't until the current gen products that they actually started to become competitive, and even then, cars like the Astra have pretty noticeable flaws.

The previous Astra was rather dull looking and appears to have a nasty spartan interior. I don't know because I have never driven one, but I have seen images and read of the lingering stigma of Opel products from the past. Perception is a powerful thing.

In Europe (I know) the Astra seems to have an impenetrable range, what with small diesels and petrols all the way up to the VXR/OPC versions, 3- and 5-door hatches, sedan, wagon, AND cabriolet. It may have flaws, but the styling is far more exciting and exotic than the Golf V of same vintage, and the Astra's interior and (in my experience) driving dynamics are in possession of greater tactile quality and overall superiority.

[turbo200]

Except it wasn't until the current gen products that they actually started to become competitive, and even then, cars like the Astra have pretty noticeable flaws.

in America. the euro version has more engines, the one major failing of the American model. cupholders are not a make or break situation regardless of if you want to pretend they are or not. they are a convenience model, but with the right driving, good efficiency, diesel Astra to the average Euro consumer, they won't care. i don't think they look at beverage holders the way we do in any case. astra is a five year old product that still heads the best sellers list in Europe.

[Intrepidation]

in America. the euro version has more engines, the one major failing of the American model. cupholders are not a make or break situation regardless of if you want to pretend they are or not. they are a convenience model, but with the right driving, good efficiency, diesel Astra to the average Euro consumer, they won't care. i don't think they look at beverage holders the way we do in any case. astra is a five year old product that still heads the best sellers list in Europe.

Did I mention cupholders? No. However things like the interior having rattles (which has been noted in at leas t a few reviews) are a pretty big flaw. Oh, and 4-speed automatic is not class leading. Also, the Astra VXR has trouble handling the power the engine makes, whereas the Cobalt SS does not (yes I know GME worked on tuning the SS< but the products is still a GMNA based model, as far as I know). So no, as much as you think it is, the Astra in it's current form is not class leading, maybe in your book, but not in mine. Will the next one be? perhaps, but regarding this generation, that would be a "no".

I like the current Astra, especially the 3-door, so I'm not bashing the car, so you know.

:Edits:

[turbo200]

Did I mention cupholders? No. However things like the interior having rattles (which has been noted in at leas t a few reviews) are a pretty big flaw. Oh, and 4-speed automatic is not class leading. Also, the Astra VXR has trouble handling the power the engine makes, whereas the Cobalt SS does not (yes I know GME worked on tuning the SS< but the products is still a GMNA based model, as far as I know). So no, as much as you think it is, the Astra in it's current form is not class leading, maybe in your book, but not in mine. Will the next one be? perhaps, but regarding this generation, that would be a "no".

I like the current Astra, especially the 3-door, so I'm not bashing the car, so you know.

:Edits:

i guess i'll go on with our little spat since we're so finely getting along [i guess I've done something wrong]. so you bring up a powertrain point which is an American thing because elsewhere they're offered with a variety of powertrains. you bring up the american powertrain, the special edition performance model, and inconspicuos unverified noises as your proof pudding the whole car line is nothing special. i was always strictly talking about the euro model for future reference, as we all know one important measure of a car is its powertrain, seriously important to most, and the american model is lacking there. in europe, with its many derivations, abundant powertrain options, and low entry price the astra was considered head of its class as little as a couple of years back. paraphrased almost completely from a review a couple years back.

by your measurements, there is really no one compact car in the american market that rules as head of class.

Edited March 1, 2009 by turbo200

[ocnblu]

I've always liked the VW Rabbit/Golf/Rabbit... but I have to face facts... up to now, Americans don't care about small premium hatches in huge numbers. For the price, the Astra just is not competitive with other cars in its class here in the US.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I like the old Astra for what it was, the new Astra is all that and a bag of chips ...

[ocnblu]

Are there any pictures of the new 3-door?

[Intrepidation]

i guess i'll go on with our little spat since we're so finely getting along [i guess I've done something wrong]. so you bring up a powertrain point which is an American thing because elsewhere they're offered with a variety of powertrains. you bring up the american powertrain, the special edition performance model, and inconspicuos unverified noises as your proof pudding the whole car line is nothing special. i was always strictly talking about the euro model for future reference, as we all know one important measure of a car is its powertrain, seriously important to most, and the american model is lacking there. in europe, with its many derivations, abundant powertrain options, and low entry price the astra was considered head of its class as little as a couple of years back. paraphrased almost completely from a review a couple years back.

by your measurements, there is really no one compact car in the american market that rules as head of class.

This is funny that you make an excuse for interior rattles for this car but by gods you'll nitpick away at the CTS' interior, and nitpick many others (except for the E-Class of course). I guess auto reviews (I think it was Autoblog, but I'll have to check) are Unverified sources now? Also, the VXR I mentioned is not an American spec model with an American spec powertrain, last I checked, and I mentioned that being a problem with the chassis. I supposes a torque steering, understeering car is class-leading now? Like I said before, I like the car, but it is not class leading.

Anyway, my point through all this is GME hasn't had home run after home run after home run, which you seemed to imply earlier.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Are there any pictures of the new 3-door?

Why yes there are, locked away in Deutschland. I guess you could ask Chris Doane ...

[ocnblu]

But I am not asking Chris Doane. I am asking John Borger Veinerschnitzle!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

And GMNA asked for the old Astra to be shipped over instead of waiting for the new one, once again the Loony Labyrinth of backstabbing RenCen bureaucrats that is GMNA shoots themselves in the foot ...

Well, at least we know where you got your sense of corporate culture from...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's not class leading until we actually have them on sale to be tested,the Insignia is the only one out right now. I don't know if it is class leading or not, but if it is that is only one. The CTS, CTS-V, and teh GMT-900s are and were (respectively) the class leaders and were not developed in Europe.

LOL, I know, right?

The current Epsilon and Delta sure as &#036;h&#33; didn't light the world ablaze with their glory.

[Oracle of Delphi]

But I am not asking Chris Doane. I am asking John Borger Veinerschnitzle!

Now you know I never kiss and tell, and leave my Weinerschnitzel alone ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Realistically, it seems to me that GM is doing JUST what PCS hinted at 6 months ago.

They're attempting to restructure the company so that GMNA can implode on it's own. I bet they'll do the same thing with Holden. (GMDAT is already in this situation)

It's not a bad move, so long as GM retains CONTROL of the separate entities.

[ZL-1]

I bet they'll do the same thing with Holden. (GMDAT is already in this situation)

I think they started already. Didn't GM Daewoo go to the Koeran Development Bank (IIRC the minority shareaholder in GM Daewoo) and asked for a lot of money in loans a couple of weeks ago?

[SAmadei]

it's only a matter of time until GM has to spin off GMDAT and GM Holden to pay back it debts.

Maybe once Holden is on it's own, they can start importing Holdens to America.

If Pontiac is going away, I would certainly support a independent Holden import in America, since GM will only be selling neutered shrunken appliances.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Maybe once Holden is on it's own, they can start importing Holdens to America.

If Pontiac is going away, I would certainly support a independent Holden import in America, since GM will only be selling neutered shrunken appliances.

You do know that the majority of Holden cars are GMDAT with an Opel thrown in for good measure. Yeah they have the Zeta, but for how much longer ???

[97regalGS]

something to think about

http://www.christonium.com/automotive/ItemID=12358563534419

General Motors on Thursday reported their long expected 4th Quarter and 2008 full-year financial results. For the 4th Quarter, the company’s consolidated loss was $9.5 billion for a total of $30.8 billion in 2008. Revenue in the last quarter dropped 34% to $30.8 billion and for the year fell 17% to $179.9 billion (Figure 1)......

[Robert Hall]

You do know that the majority of Holden cars are GMDAT with an Opel thrown in for good measure. Yeah they have the Zeta, but for how much longer ???

That's sad..the Zeta models are the only things they have of value. The GMDAT stuff is just a bunch of FWD generics.

[gmcbob]

And now that I've seen the conversation has come around to Zeta, I saw a brand new white G8 GT driving around near my neighborhood yesterday. I keep forgetting that these are actually pretty big cars (by today's standards).

It got me thinking how GM should keep Zeta around as a Buick (Buick Electra or Park Avenue) and give it the direct injection 304 hp CTS/STS V6 as the base engine and have the 6.0L V8 as an option. GM could still sell the G8 I suppose, but also have a luxurious Buick version of it - I think it could be very profitable as a Buick with a nice interior like the one in China. If marketed right, it could grab potential GS and LS Lexus buyers. They've already (slowly) started grabbing some import buyers of luxury crossovers with the Enclave. Why not grab the full size, high dollar luxury sedan buyers too with a big, proper Buick? I mean, isn't that what Buick used to be known for "back in the day"? I remember when my Dad worked there and he'd bring home LeSabre and Electra company cars every other day. Now those same (in a modern sense) types of cars are sold by Lexus and Infiniti. GM could grab those profitable sales back from them with the resources they have today (Zeta) marketed as Buicks. We know it and they know it, but for some reason they just decided not to.

But what do I know? And right now I can see the writing on the wall for anything that isn't front wheel drive and fuel efficient at GM. This Govt. appointed board is going to strip whatever inkling of a soul GM had left right out of them friends.

Which comes back around to Opel. I think at this point, GM has nothing to lose by at least keeping a 50% stake in Opel. It still appears to me that Opel provides some good resources to GM when it comes to front drive small cars - something that GM needs to be better at marketing here in NA if it wants to really survive beyond these loans I fear.

Edited March 1, 2009 by gmcbob

[SAmadei]

You do know that the majority of Holden cars are GMDAT with an Opel thrown in for good measure. Yeah they have the Zeta, but for how much longer ???

I'm probably at least as well versed in Holden cars as the average Australian is.

Anyway, that is for Holden cars that are sold, not produced. You know this list better than I...

Barina, Viva, Epica, Captiva. Made in South Korea.

Cruze. Australia, but currently not available in US

Astra. Built in Poland?

Colorado. South America, Thailand.

Commodore, Berlina, Calais, Statesman, Caprice, Ute. Actually built in Australia.

Combo. Spain.

Since I would think that the heads at Holden would want to maximize their Australian assets and not try to compete with otherwise identical cars (Barina/Aveo, Astra) in NA or export cars likely to not be desirable in the US (Combo), they would export the Zeta models, and _maybe_ the Cruze... at least until NA GM starts making Cruzes and Cruze-rebadges in 2011... or 2012... or maybe 2014, because we still have Cobalt parts we need to use up.

According to Wikipedia, Holden is already doing pretty good in the export business...

The Middle East is now Holden's largest export market, with the Commodore sold as the Chevrolet Lumina since 1998, and the Statesman since 1999 as the Chevrolet Caprice.[92] Commodores are also sold as the Chevrolet Lumina in Brunei, Fiji and South Africa, to Brazil as the Chevrolet Omega and to North America as the Pontiac G8.[110][117] The long-wheelbase Statesman model was sold previously in China as the Buick Royaum, before being replaced by the Statesman-based Buick Park Avenue.[118] Beginning in 2005, Statesman exports began in South Korea, sold as the Daewoo Statesman, and later as the Daewoo Veritas.[119] Sales of the Monaro began in 2003 to the Middle East as the Chevrolet Lumina Coupe. Later on in the year, a modified version of the Monaro began selling in North America as the Pontiac GTO, and under the Monaro name through Vauxhall dealerships in the United Kingdom. This arrangement continued through to 2005 when the car was discontinued.[120] Holden's move into international markets has been profitable; export revenue increased from AU$973 million in 1999 to just under $1.3 billion in 2006.

They wouldn't be the first company to enter the US market first as a rebadge, then later under their name.

Of course, in the post-global-GM world, Holden may not have access to all those crappy Opels and Daewoos, anyway. They might have to, *gasp!*, design their own small car... which could be exported here, as well.

As far as how long they will have zeta... well, as soon as the GM brain trust implodes and lets Holden control their destiny, they can have zeta as long as they want. After all, it was the best selling car in Australia.

GMCBOB mentions that Buick should sell a zeta here, which I have advocated for a while. The Chinese-sold Park Avenue is perfect, as it is based on the Statesman, not the Commodore... so it is a larger car than the G8 is here... differentiating it as a Buick, and it would be perfect for a modern Buick flagship, which could be offered with several great powertrains.

Edited March 2, 2009 by SAmadei

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't take to much stock in what Wikipedia says, after all any Shmoe can make changes to it. A friend of mine went in there and changed everything to look negative about a Toyota vehicle and it took them months to change it back ...

[turbo200]

LOL, I know, right?

The current Epsilon and Delta sure as &#036;h&#33; didn't light the world ablaze with their glory.

you are being asinine in the way you spew your ignorant bias. i am sorry i have to be rough here. you very well know the source responsible for localizing the cars sold in America was GMNA. Opel developed those platforms and GMNA changed the cars for thier purposes. it is so convenient of you to ignore all the calls from various posters here to just import the vectra when it was first released, doubtless you were a part of that perhaps i should look into it, because we all thought it was a solid looking piece, and much better than our unrefined Malibu.

the people responsible for the bad things about epsilon cars are the ones that forced designers and powertrain departments to decontent and neuter the design. on the other hand one of the things epsilon was routinely praised for is a balanced chassis and refined suspension.

it goes all the way to the current malibu which manages to make it to multiple awards lists over two years not just in its introductory year. do some comprehensive reading and you'll find one of thier big points of praie for the car is the balanced handling and composed ride; that must have something to do with solid engineering on the platform, originating in Germany. thier must be some glory in doing that.

[SAmadei]

I don't take to much stock in what Wikipedia says, after all any Shmoe can make changes to it. A friend of mine went in there and changed everything to look negative about a Toyota vehicle and it took them months to change it back ...

Granted, but its the only way to get the various knowledge of the public together in one place. Hence, the citation. Would you prefer an encyclopedia to be an expensive 70 lb, dead tree version edited by a stuffy Brit that only covers a couple thousand topics and it is 4 years out of date by the time you finally buy your yearly edition?

I could say the same about a website forum that tracks a certain psychotically managed American automotive company. ;-)

[wildcat]

A friend of mine went in there and changed everything

Did you really

[Oracle of Delphi]

Did you really

I'm innocent ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

you are being asinine in the way you spew your ignorant bias.

Care to back that OPINION up?

(Oh wait, I forgot, you don't actually back your opinions up with anything)

you very well know the source responsible for localizing the cars sold in America was GMNA.

Okay... So an unsuccessful PLATFORM in both NA and Europe (Read: core components, not interior trim) is the fault of GMNA? You need to change YOUR bias against GMNA.. What's next? They kill babies on the weekend?

Opel developed those platforms and GMNA changed the cars for thier purposes.

Yeah, what they COULD change. Interior, exterior and shock tuning. WOW!

it is so convenient of you to ignore all the calls from various posters here to just import the vectra when it was first released, doubtless you were a part of that perhaps i should look into it, because we all thought it was a solid looking piece, and much better than our unrefined Malibu.

I've been all for the Vectra (as a Saturn) for years now. However, the fact that Opel NEEDS to export in order to justify it's existence SAYS A LOT about it's home team and acceptance in it's core market. Opel, like GMNA, was JUST beginning to put out decent products right before the market meltdown.

on the other hand one of the things epsilon was routinely praised for is a balanced chassis and refined suspension.

So THAT'S why the G6 got all of those EXCELLENT reviews (about it's sloppy and heavy chassis)

do some comprehensive reading and you'll find one of thier big points of praie for the car is the balanced handling and composed ride; that must have something to do with solid engineering on the platform, originating in Germany. thier must be some glory in doing that.

LOL,

Do you just believe anything you read? I'd have lots of fun with you...

So; let me get this straight... The OLD Epsilons were BAD because GMNA dumbed them down... However, the SAME (albeit recalibrated) platform that went through THE SAME process from GMNA (except with better appeal on the consumer interface) is successful and (of course, god forbid we be pro GMNA) somehow ATTRIBUTED to german engineering?

That's smells like bias, to me.... BLINDING as it may be.

:rotflmao:

[Oracle of Delphi]

What's next? They kill babies on the weekend?

How did you find out GMNA's little secret?

[evok]

And the Eps Vectra was a sales disappointment since launch.

Edited March 3, 2009 by evok

[Oracle of Delphi]

And my daughter could have predicted the death of the V8 ...

[evok]

And my daughter could have predicted the death of the V8 ...

Seems to have more sense than her old man.

And boy - 4 years later that thread still strikes a nerve with people.

BTW even Wikipedia agrees with my assessment of the Eps Vectra. I highly doubt it was some pesky Toyota fan playing games.

Edited March 3, 2009 by evok

[Oracle of Delphi]

Seems to have more sense than her old man.

And boy - 4 years later that thread still strikes a nerve with people.

BTW even Wikipedia agrees with my assessment of the Eps Vectra. I highly doubt it was some pesky Toyota fan playing games.

Yeah Wikipedia, that's who I would quote, talk about sense? As for that thread, all I thought was meh ... Stating the obvious once again ...

You seem to be at odds with me for some reason, doesn't have anything to do with me shutting down my PM's on C&G does it? I know how you used to like to PM me so ...

[Chazman]

GME will be tasked to sell Chevys and Cadillacs in Europe ...

So after your retirement, rejoin GME doing that. Perhaps you could use me as a consultant, since I'm an American but also considered a citizen of the EU, am familiar with the auto industry and am a fan of both Chevy and Cadillac. And yes, I know Europeans - like 75% of my family and my in-law's family.

Something to consider....

Edited March 3, 2009 by Chazman

[FloydHendershot]

I don't take to much stock in what Wikipedia says, after all any Shmoe can make changes to it. A friend of mine went in there and changed everything to look negative about a Toyota vehicle and it took them months to change it back ...

Maybe so but you cant change source info. You know those little numbers at the bottom of the page; footnotes. :wink:

Any student of journalism or anyone with a shred of common sense (which isnt so common) can tell you its a resource and only as good as its sources. Just ask CBS or the NY Times, or Fox news or....

[evok]

Yeah Wikipedia, that's who I would quote, talk about sense? As for that thread, all I thought was meh ... Stating the obvious once again ...

So do pass on some more of your insight into Opel. It does make for good entertainment if nothing else by explaining the $2 billion loss in 4th quarter excluding "special items". As of January, continued production cuts of app. 50% for the 1st quarter 2009 compared to last year (260k). And last year was down from 1999-2000 when Opel was producing well over 525k vehicles a quarter.

Again, I have just been posting the obvious. 50% reduction in production for 6 months just is not good for revenue. And without money from GM (what is vaporizing really fast), means Opel as an operations is very likely insolvent today. Opel being a regional player as Europe continues to contract will have to face some very serious decisions with regard to what future it may have, inside or outside of GM's reach.

You seem to be at odds with me for some reason, doesn't have anything to do with me shutting down my PM's on C&G does it? I know how you used to like to PM me so ...

I actually enjoyed PMing atabloke. Remember him?

OT It is just sad to see what happened to GM's stock. Hard to believe it was trading at 16 back in June/July. I fear with all debt-to-equity exchange and 50% of the UAW healthcare VEBA being rolled into equity, the stock will be depressed for years to come because of all the dilution. Thoughts?

Edited March 3, 2009 by evok

[evok]

According to Fritz Henderson today - Opel will be nationalized in exchange for money. GM could end up with a minority stake.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So do pass on some more of your insight into Opel. It does make for good entertainment if nothing else by explaining the $2 billion loss in 4th quarter excluding "special items". As of January, continued production cuts of app. 50% for the 1st quarter 2009 compared to last year (260k). And last year was down from 1999-2000 when Opel was producing well over 525k vehicles a quarter.

And GMNA is doing even worse is it not? It's a shame the US Government doesn't care about it's auto industry. Unlike the German Government, which will stand behind theirs.

Again, I have just been posting the obvious. 50% reduction in production for 6 months just is not good for revenue. And without money from GM (what is vaporizing really fast), means Opel as an operations is very likely insolvent today. Opel being a regional player as Europe continues to contract will have to face some very serious decisions with regard to what future it may have, inside or outside of GM's reach.

Well it is a recession on it's way to depression, if it's not already a depression ... Or haven't you heard? Sorry to state to obvious, I don't like to steal your thunder ...

I actually enjoyed PMing atabloke. Remember him?

Well that is your MO, PM and whisper bad things about C&G and the people who post here, the trouble is I cut off all PM's with you. I kept all your PM's, I like to reread them from time to time, right before I go to sleep, they really knock me out ...

atabloke? That name seems vaguely familiar, was he the one spouting off all that venom? Were you the one pulling his string? Tell me, where is he now? I haven't seen him in a while ...

OT It is just sad to see what happened to GM's stock. Hard to believe it was trading at 16 back in June/July. I fear with all debt-to-equity exchange and 50% of the UAW healthcare VEBA being rolled into equity, the stock will be depressed for years to come because of all the dilution. Thoughts?

Oh I don't worry about stocks, I won't need them for another 26 years. Time it seems is on my side, I'm not even 40 yet, soon, but not quite yet ...

Edited March 4, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S