Official: Saturn is Dead, Pontiac is a Ghost

[Z-06]

CHRYSLER - THE AUTO MANUFACTURER WHORE

[balthazar]

>>"Yeah, but I dont recall Toyota, Kia, or Ford ever using any form of the word "exciting" or any synonyms for the word "exciting" in their advertising. "<<

You don't recall a decade of toyota ads picturing some of the most horrific designs ever pedaled, and people next to the POS jumping high in the air, arms overhead, fists clenched, ear-to-ear grin of total joy, enraptured over their 84-hp tin se-cans?? "OH, WHAT A FEELING!!" ring a bell? That's a visual synonym & a textual implication, without question.

Then again, with the flatline level of excitment those cars brought, I can see how that decade of advertising would be forgotten.

[Drew Dowdell]

Dear Satty,

Pwn (below: Various pronunciations) is a leetspeak slang term, derived from the verb "own",[1][2] as meaning to appropriate or to conquer to gain ownership. The term implies domination or humiliation of a rival, used primarily in the Internet gaming culture to taunt an opponent who has just been soundly defeated (e.g. "You just got pwned!"). The past tense may also be spelled: pwnd, pwn'd pwn3d, pwnt or powned.

[Satty]

I was born in '84, I dont remember an entire decade of anything.

[gm4life]

I was born in '84, I dont remember an entire decade of anything.

Ahh but I do...

[balthazar]

>>"I was born in '84, I dont remember an entire decade of anything. "<<

Yet you 'remembered' to post a 6000 wagon from roughly a year you were (legitimately) in diapers...

Edited February 21, 2009 by balthazar

[Satty]

Since they (unfortunately) didn't crush all of the crappy cars made before I entered my formative years, I've been aware of much of the garbage that hasn't been actively advertised in my lifetime.

[buyacargetacheck]

Are you flippin kidding us? Were you even around in the 80s? American cars at the time had very real reliability, fit & finish and durability issues. For lots of reasons. AND, they continued to plod along with old tech: pushrod 4 cylinders, throttle-body FI, 3-speed automatics, 4-speed manuals, solid rear axle suspensions.

Toyota, on the other hand, took advantage of this weakness and sold solid, reliable, durable, SOHC, 5-speed manual and sometimes DOHC, 4-wheel disc-braked, 4-wheel independent suspensioned, multi-port electronic FI, 4-valve per cylinder, electronically-controlled 4-speed automatic transmission machines. OK, so you didn't like the way some of the cars looked. But there's a reason why Toyota is the largest auto manufacturer today. The seeds were sown in those "Oh What a Feeling" days. Here's an awesome example:

You don't recall a decade of toyota ads picturing some of the most horrific designs ever pedaled, and people next to the POS jumping high in the air, arms overhead, fists clenched, ear-to-ear grin of total joy, enraptured over their 84-hp tin se-cans?? "OH, WHAT A FEELING!!" ring a bell? That's a visual synonym & a textual implication, without question.

Then again, with the flatline level of excitment those cars brought, I can see how that decade of advertising would be forgotten.

[Intrepidation]

Hell it didn't even end with the 80's Look at a Cavalier and then look at a Corolla, or better yet, a Prizm on the same showroom floor. Sit in both, drive both. No comparison. Same goes for comparing them with Escorts and Neons.

[Robert Hall]

>>"Yeah, but I dont recall Toyota, Kia, or Ford ever using any form of the word "exciting" or any synonyms for the word "exciting" in their advertising. "<<

You don't recall a decade of toyota ads picturing some of the most horrific designs ever pedaled, and people next to the POS jumping high in the air, arms overhead, fists clenched, ear-to-ear grin of total joy, enraptured over their 84-hp tin se-cans?? "OH, WHAT A FEELING!!" ring a bell? That's a visual synonym & a textual implication, without question.

Then again, with the flatline level of excitment those cars brought, I can see how that decade of advertising would be forgotten.

I feel really old...I remember those ads. Ah, the excitement of an '80 Tercel.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, the SS trim available on many Chevy models doesn't fit that at all.

Nope.

I can't buy a RWD Chevy sedan or an affordable Chevy roadster.

[Satty]

Nope.

I can't buy a RWD Chevy sedan or an affordable Chevy roadster.

Right now, no. But if Pontiac were axed 5 years ago, the Solstice and G8 would, right now, be on Chevy lots.

[ZL-1]

So Pontiac now is an EXCITING!!!!!! ghost?

[balthazar]

>>"Right now, no. But if Pontiac were axed 5 years ago, the Solstice and G8 would, right now, be on Chevy lots."<<

And if Chevy were axed 5 years ago, the Corvette and Camaro would, right now/soon, be on B-P-GMC lots.

Or the entire Corporation can shut down & just live off licensing fees for repro parts, posters & t-shirts. They'd sure as sh!t be profitable then.

This line of thinking continues to ignore the fact that a huge, unknown quantity of people will not buy X-brand because they don't like whatever aspects of this. I could see if we had NO EVIDENCE of this phenomenom {cough-Oldsmobile-cough}.... BUT, ummm, WE DO.

>>"Are you flippin kidding us? Were you even around in the 80s? "<<

So in hindsight (which this thread is), you are here to say you are currently EXCITED!!! over '80s toyotas. Fantastic- more power to you.

BTW- I have NOT defended '80s cars here from any country, you might trouble yourself to note.

And yes : I lived thru the '80s. Whether or not that's 'fortunate' depends on the context.

Edited February 21, 2009 by balthazar

[gm4life]

Right now, no. But if Pontiac were axed 5 years ago, the Solstice and G8 would, right now, be on Chevy lots.

Thank God for Bob Lutz, and they really were more "Pontiac" than Chevrolet, after-all Pontiac is suppose to be performance.

[Intrepidation]

Thank God for Bob Lutz, and they really were more "Pontiac" than Chevrolet, after-all Pontiac is suppose to be performance.

Yes, let's thank God, because clearly he had everything to do with anything car related.

Anyway, it's contradictory to say Pontiac stands more for performance than Chevy does these days. Why?

• Corvette
• Camaro
• Cobalt SS

That 3 VS

• Solstice
• G8

The G5 doesn't even have a performance version.

[SAmadei]

Or the entire Corporation can shut down & just live off licensing fees for repro parts, posters & t-shirts. They'd sure as sh!t be profitable then.

Sometimes I feel like GM should create a new "Historic" division... and sell modern versions of it's classics.

[gm4life]

Yes, let's thank God, because clearly he had everything to do with anything car related.

Anyway, it's contradictory to say Pontiac stands more for performance than Chevy does these days. Why?

• Corvette
• Camaro
• Cobalt SS

That 3 VS

• Solstice
• G8

The G5 doesn't even have a performance version.

I understand that, but the Cobalt is still FWD, both the Camaro and Vette are RWD, Pontiac has a RWD G8 and Solstice and so they each have two RWD cars. Plus you actually can haul your family in G8 GXP and still kick a$$ if that is total performance what is? What I am saying is Pontiac has more of performance image than Chevrolet or at least "sporty" image. Pontiac also had a GTO, and GP GXP and Bonneville GXP not that last two GXP's were performance but certainly faster and less boring than the regular models. Also Pontiac has a G6 coupe (something Chevrolet) doesn't offer in that class.

Bob Lutz was way better than the god-damn bean counters they have there before worrying about saving every nickle and dime. Bob Lutz didn't just do performance but worked on interior quality and exterior gaps between panels.

Edited February 21, 2009 by gm4life

[Intrepidation]

Sometimes I feel like GM should create a new "Historic" division... and sell modern versions of it's classics.

When I was a kid I always wondered why they didn't just remake classic cars. I always thought it would be so cool. Of course now I know that could never happen.

[Intrepidation]

I understand that, but the Cobalt is still FWD, both the Camaro and Vette are RWD, Pontiac has a RWD G8 and Solstice and so they each have two RWD cars. Plus you actually can haul your family in G8 GXP and still kick a$$ if that is total performance what is? What I am saying is Pontiac has more of performance image than Chevrolet or at least "sporty" image. Pontiac also had a GTO, and GP GXP and Bonneville GXP not that last two GXP's were performance but certainly faster and less boring than the regular models. Also Pontiac has a G6 coupe (something Chevrolet) doesn't offer in that class.

Put a Chevy badge on the G8 and it could be the Impala. The Solstice could fit in Chevy's lineup. The Camaro and Corvette can't fit in Pontiac's lineup.

Chevy is the everyman brand yet has the highest performance car in the entire company.

[Intrepidation]

This is Pontiac's problem: nothing they have is unque enough that it would look out of place in another brand. The G8 is an excellent car and an excellent Pontiac, but give it a new front fascia and it could be a Chevy. Plus GM plans to kill it anyway. Same for the Solstice.

This makes the business case for it even tougher, especially since GM has no money to spend.

[Satty]

The Solstice looks kinda like a mini Corvette with a few pounds of baby fat, it could slip into the Chevy lineup just fine. The G8 could be an Impala tomorrow with a different hood.

[SAmadei]

When I was a kid I always wondered why they didn't just remake classic cars. I always thought it would be so cool. Of course now I know that could never happen.

The new Challenger and Mustang, and to a lesser degree the HHR, PT Cruiser and last Thunderbird are demonstrations that they COULD make modern versions of their classics.

I would never expect a perfect copy of the classics, since modern regulations preempt chrome backed rearview mirrors, unpadded dashboards and lap-only belts. Chromed bumpers would be difficult to create due to environmental regs. The bodys would be based on a stretchable unibody, and would be designed from the ground up to include modern safety features like crumble zones. I'm sure nobody would complain about a neoclassic with a L76 or LS3 drivetrain and 6 speed tranny. The trick to here would be to create a platform that could be completely rebodied every 2 years to emulate, as closely a particular classic.

Thinking of classic dashboards of the past, I chuckle at the idea of a quasi-steampunk 50's chrome dash with a Check Engine light.

I'm not advocating retro styling across the board, but just for a limited line of niche cars.

[SAmadei]

This is Pontiac's problem: nothing they have is unque enough that it would look out of place in another brand.

This is not a failing of Pontiac, because its hands are tied by GM politics. This is a failure of Chevrolet, which should NOT be impinging on the other brands. By giving so many performance cars to Chevy, you have given up the chance to earn a premium by selling a Pontiac. By loading the Impala up with luxury items, you steal more profitable sales from Buick.

Some could argue that Chevy needs these products to compete globally, but for that, just rebadge the Pontiacs and Buicks as Chevys in other markets.

Granted, historically, there have been loaded, luxury Chevrolets... but these are a relative rarity... IMHO, the only Chevy that should not fit the basic and affordable mantra is the Corvette, which GM clearly did not know where to insert into their division structure and is today grandfathered as a Chevy.

IMHO, for instance, the new Malibu should have been a Buick. The Chevy version of the Malibu should have been more like a "Chevelle"... i.e., relatively barebones. Not crappily built, but fairly plain. It should have attempted to beat the Camry and Accord by selling for $5-7K less.

With the current economy and race to the bottom becoming the norm, Americans are going to need cheaper transportation because we aren't going to fit our rotund bodies into Aveos. Seems to me, GM was once very good at building large affordable cars.

[cire]

I was kind of bored today, so I was looking through different automotive websites and came across a scrap of info that I completely missed when GM was releasing their restructuring plans. I was under the assumption that Pontiac would be a niche brand under B-P-G, but the 2 sources that I read today claim that future Pontiac "niche" products would be sold through Chevrolet dealers. I provided links to one of the sources below:

Visit My Website

Source: LeftLane News

Maybe this is just news to me, but I really thought Pontiac would remain a part of B-P-G. I was really shocked to read that Pontiac is essentially moving to Chevrolet.

Edited February 27, 2009 by cire

[Camino LS6]

Ugh.

I am a bit sick of this incessant Pontiac bashing - it just isn't funny anymore.

If it were not for Pontiac, and certain Chevys, GM would never have meant a damn thing to me.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Ugh.

I am a bit sick of this incessant Pontiac bashing - it just isn't funny anymore.

If it were not for Pontiac, and certain Chevys, GM would never have meant a damn thing to me.

It all goes back to "Pontiac's being for stoopid rednecks."

And since some people are afraid of us "stoopid rednecks" and our lifestyles/views (as they should be -- ever see Deliverance?) they seek to eliminate and chastise it.

It's just opinion perpetuated into trolling.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Being from Texas, I take exception to that term, in many ways Southern Society is more refined than what goes on, above the Mason/Dixon line ...

[Blake Noble]

It all goes back to "Pontiac's being for stoopid rednecks."

And since some people are afraid of us "stoopid rednecks" and our lifestyles/views (as they should be -- ever see Deliverance?) they seek to eliminate and chastise it.

It's just opinion perpetuated into trolling.

Uh no.

Little known fact I'd like to share: I was born in Eastern Kentucky (although I was raised in the more urban and suburban cites and towns of the state for the majority of my life; when I first moved to Lexington my "hick" accent was very thick). It's certainly not what the media makes it out to be, but it's also not exactly Beverly-f@#king-Hills, my friend.

I might be a "city boy," but I also know where I came from.

My next car is going to hopefully be a Pontiac Firebird Formula pending on what the owner of the car decides. And if the deal falls through, I have another Firebird lined up for me to purchase.

Basically it all boils down to this: &#036;h&#33;ty Pontiacs are &#036;h&#33;ty. They deserve the ill reputation and all of the jokes one can muster. And, by god, I will bash every single past and present dumb&#036;h&#33; move GM has made and will make. I'm finished trying to fight for the company and trying to voice my opinion through outlets such as here at C&G. It obviously doesn't matter. The last car that rolled off of a GM assembly line that I would buy died in 2002. And it doesn't look like it's going to change.

Edited February 27, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Intrepidation]

Uh no.

Basically it all boils down to this: &#036;h&#33;ty Pontiacs are &#036;h&#33;ty.

Quoted For Truth.

You can't blame bad cars on anyone but the company that made them.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It obviously doesn't matter. The last car that rolled off of a GM assembly line that I would buy died in 2002. And it doesn't look like it's going to change.

The Cadillac Eldorado?

[FAPTurbo]

The last car that rolled off of a GM assembly line that I would buy died in 2002.

I had no idea you liked Chevrolet Prizm's.

[Blake Noble]

The Cadillac Eldorado?

No need to be coy.

The particular car I'm thinking of could squeeze the Eldo's balls into gourmet tapioca Jell-o, which is perfect for the folks we all know that drive them.

[Blake Noble]

I had no idea you liked Chevrolet Prizm's.

Ohhhh where's the tower, where's the gun, where's the tower, where's the gun ... ?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ohhhh where's the tower, where's the gun, where's the tower, where's the gun ... ?

That's in Texas ...

[Blake Noble]

That's in Texas ...

They're probably going to be doing it in Wisconsin soon too, don't you worry.

Edited February 27, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Justin Bimmer]

No need to be coy.

The particular car I'm thinking of could squeeze the Eldo's balls into gourmet tapioca Jell-o, which is perfect for the folks we all know that drive them.

The eldo was no slouch for being almost 4,000 lbs. 12.5 quarter mile and I think around 6.4 seconds to 60.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I'd miss Pontiac, but they've had many chances to get better and they blew them all, whether it be styling, even trying to be the slightest bit upscale from Chevrolet, or being a performance leader even with FWD models. It'll be weird with GM not having Pontiac, but slap a Buick front end/rear end and more onto the G8 and maybe Solstice, replace the G6 Coupe/convertible with Buicks, and bam, their slots are covered. Too bad Saturn didn't fully realize its "American Opel" potential-I would've loved to see it be fully realized, but I'm thinking Buick will cover that too, I'm excited to see that, even if it closes the lives of Pontiac and Saturn.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Little known fact I'd like to share: I was born in Eastern Kentucky

Case in point...

To these people (the people I was referring to with the last comment) you serve as confirmation of the stereotype. They don't care who you actually are.

[Blake Noble]

The eldo was no slouch for being almost 4,000 lbs. 12.5 quarter mile and I think around 6.4 seconds to 60.

You can make a fourth-gen Firebird with a V8 run not-to-sixty times in under 5 seconds with just a few simple and inexpensive modifications. Stock it still runs in the mid to low 5 second range. For the record, some drivers of the post-1998 LS1 Trans Ams have seen stock zero-to-sixty times of 4.9 seconds.

And, really, you and I both know the kind of people that tool around in Eldorados.

So who are you going to come across driving an Eldorado that would fully utilize that potential?

Edited February 27, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Justin Bimmer]

The eldo could beat a Mustang GT with the 4.6 V8 in the 1/4 mile.

I guess im 90 years old then cause I would roll in an eldo.

[Justin Bimmer]

[Intrepidation]

I hated 90 degree window/C-pillar. I prefer the Seville.

[vonVeezelsnider]

The eldo could beat a Mustang GT with the 4.6 V8 in the 1/4 mile.

I guess im 90 years old then cause I would roll in an eldo.

Beat the 530i in the slalom as well if memory serves...

[daves87rs]

THIS IS THE HIGHEST QUALITY TOYOTA EVER, WITH A GREAT LOOKING WING, BET IT HAS 350HP TOO! (THE WING IS GOOD FOR AT LEAST 50 HORSES!)

[SAmadei]

And, really, you and I both know the kind of people that tool around in Eldorados.

So who are you going to come across driving an Eldorado that would fully utilize that potential?

I'm nowhere near that old and actually desired the Eldo. The only thing that stopped me is that they were too expensive for a FWD appliance.

As far as potential, I'd use it. I look at the senior citizens as caretakers for the mint Eldo I will eventually buy for a song at an estate sale. Wish more seniors had bought B-bod Impala SS's and 35th anni Trans Ams.

[The O.C.]

When I was a kid I always wondered why they didn't just remake classic cars. I always thought it would be so cool. Of course now I know that could never happen.

I remember a few years ago, Nissan had this program to where they would buy old Z-cars, 240s, 260s, 280s.....and do a complete restoration, and then sell them to the public!

If I remember correctly, you could buy a fully-restored 240Z for something like $25K - $30K...?

Now that would be cool if the car manufacturers would do something like that.....but realistically it's probably not something that would pay off in the long-term.

[SAmadei]

I remember a few years ago, Nissan had this program to where they would buy old Z-cars, 240s, 260s, 280s.....and do a complete restoration, and then sell them to the public!

If I remember correctly, you could buy a fully-restored 240Z for something like $25K - $30K...?

Now that would be cool if the car manufacturers would do something like that.....but realistically it's probably not something that would pay off in the long-term.

I remember that. IIRC, it was only during the period when there was no Z-car in production for the US... '97~'99 maybe. This way Nissan could still sell a sports car of sorts.

I always wondered how that worked out, as far as sales and profit went.

[saturnd00d]

I, for one, have lost all faith in GM. Seriously, I know they can build good cars, but product is only one part of the equation. If a true stand-up company can back them up with strong management, excellent customer service and a desire to best it's competitors than consider me faithful. GM has let me down in that respect. I haven't actually had a problem with the service at my Saturn dealership, but then again, GM has decided to remove Saturn from the equation (a move I know many of you are happy about). When I used to get my dad's truck serviced at our local chevy dealership, they treated us like dirt. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there, I know way too many examples of people who have been mistreated by "GM" dealerships all over our area. No wonder they lose sales to the imports.

[Blake Noble]

I guess im 90 years old then cause I would roll in an eldo.

I'm nowhere near that old and actually desired the Eldo.

Don't worry gentlemen. The nurse will be here soon to give you your sponge baths, change your Depends, and spoon feed you your green beans and red Jell-o.