Official: Saturn is Dead, Pontiac is a Ghost

[Blake Noble]

Official: Saturn is Dead, Pontiac is a Ghost
Is that the sound of GM executives putting on their flame-retardant jumpsuits?

Link to original Article @ Jalopnik

Our sources tell us GM's viability plan set to be released at 5:00PM will kill the Saturn brand by 2011. Pontiac will also go away as a division. But the nameplate will sorta live on.

So basically, what we've heard is the brand meant to compete against the foreign brands is dead — Saturn goes away in 2011. There will be no new products for Saturn and Saturn dealers are getting a video from Mark LeNeve at 5:00 PM to inform them. We're thinking Mark should cut a check to send with it. As far as Pontiac, it goes away as a division. The nameplate will live on on some vehicles — but we've got no idea what "niche products" they're talking about. More coming shortly.

smallchevy: Here is the full WSJ Article

General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC told the federal government they need at least $21.6 billion more combined in bailout loans to put them on the road to recovery, and outlined possible scenarios if either auto maker should have to file for bankruptcy protection.

Both GM and Chrysler, in the recovery plans submitted Tuesday to the U.S. Treasury, argue that bankruptcy would be more costly and drawn out than government-funded restructurings.

GM said it might need as much as $100 billion in financing from the government if it were to go through the traditional bankruptcy process. Rick Wagoner, GM's chairman and chief executive, said the bankruptcy scenarios are "risky" and "costly" and would only be pursued as a last resort.

Chrysler's plan said the company would likely have to file for Chapter 11 protection if it doesn't get additional loans from the government and concessions from unions, creditors and dealers. It said it would need $24 billion in financing if the company were to file for bankruptcy. But company officials said in a conference call that they believe a Chapter 11 filing is "not necessary" for Chrysler's survival.

The submission of the recovery plans was required under terms of the U.S. loans the auto makers received in early January. The plans, however, described only a relatively few major new restructuring steps they plan to take to cut costs and downsize their operations.

GM said it now plans to phase out its Hummer brand this year and Saturn in 2011 if no alternatives arise. Earlier, it said it was trying to sell Hummer and was re-evaluating the future of Saturn. The company also is scaling back Pontiac and trying to sell Saab, its Swedish brand.

GM also said it will shut five more factories on top of the closures it had already planned. In addition, it plans to eliminate thousands of dealerships and slash 47,000 jobs this year around the world.

Chrysler said it will trim production capacity by 100,000 vehicles, a modest reduction for a company that has several more plants than it needs.

A spokesman for President Barack Obama, Robert Gibbs, said in a statement that the administration appreciates the effort by the auto makers. But he added that "more will be required from everyone involved -- creditors, suppliers, dealers, labor and auto executives themselves -- to ensure the viability of these companies."

In particular, new opposition to further aid for Chrysler seemed to be building on Capitol Hill. In an interview Tuesday, Sen. Judd Gregg (R., N.H.) said no more taxpayer money should be given to Chrysler until its majority owner, private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP, agrees to inject more funds into it.

Cerberus said in a statement that it can't put additional investments into Chrysler because agreements with its investors limit how much it can commit to any single investment. The statement added Cerberus has agreed to forego any Chrysler profits before the government loans are repaid.

Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D., Colo.) also called for both Chrysler and Cerberus up open their books to taxpayers. As a private company, Chrysler doesn't file public earnings reports.

So far, GM has received $13.4 billion in U.S. loans; its plan said the company needs a total of $30 billion in aid, or $16.6 billion more than it has now. GM also said it needs at least $7.7 billion in loans from the Department of Energy to develop fuel-efficient technology.

Chrysler has received $4 billion in loans and said it needs $5 billion more.

In one sign of progress, GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. reached tentative agreements Tuesday with the United Auto Workers union on a range of labor cost reductions. Among them are changes in work rules and cuts in so-called substitute pay, which supplements laid-off workers' unemployment benefits, a person familiar with the matter said.

Basic wage levels of auto workers, which are seen as generally equivalent to workers at foreign-owned auto plants in the U.S., remain unchanged, this person said.

But the union and the auto makers remained at odds over the largest sticking point: new terms for how the car companies will put billions of dollars into trust funds to cover the cost of health care for retired union workers. The auto makers want to pay a portion of their cash obligation to the funds with stock instead. The funds are known as VEBAs, or voluntary employee beneficiary associations.

"The UAW is withholding the terms of the tentative understanding pending completion of the VEBA discussions and ratification of the agreements," the union said in a statement. Coming to agreement on revamping the VEBAs is a requirement of the U.S. loans.

With the release of its updated viability plan, GM now must focus on the task of convincing key stakeholders to make considerable concessions. That process has been under way for several weeks but has not yielded substantive results.

On Sunday, GM received a letter from its bondholder committee outlining its framework for restructuring $29 billion in company debt by swapping debt for stock. "This framework is consistent with the government's objective in the U.S. Department of the Treasury's term loan of substantially de-leveraging GM but also provides that bondholders must receive fair and equitable treatment vis-a-vis other GM stakeholders," the letter said.

Several bondholders, however, say they have not yet been contacted and many are reluctant to embrace a debt-for-equity swap. "I can assure you, we are not being represented," one bondholder said.

Yet even if GM can reduce its public debt to $9 billion through an exchange, it will carry a far heavier burden, as much as $39 billion, than it currently does now if it receives the additional federal loans it is seeking.

Tuesday's announcement signals GM's management has softened it view on a possible bankruptcy filing. In the past Mr. Wagoner has insisted bankruptcy was not an option for the company. But in the recovery plan the company described two alternative scenarios in addition to a traditional filing.

The plan says a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy, in which new terms with unions, suppliers and creditors are hammered out in advance, might require only $30 billion in debtor-in-possession financing. In another scenario known as a "cram-down" bankruptcy, GM could try to restructure its debt over the objections of creditors.

GM's loan request includes $4.6 billion it hopes to draw down in March and April. That would bring the loan total to $18 billion, which is the amount GM initially requested in December. Additionally, GM is asking for a $7.5 billion line of credit that could be drawn under a downside scenario and to defer repayment of a $4.5 credit line due in 2011.

Under the plan submitted Tuesday, GM said it can break even once U.S. vehicle sales hit a seasonally adjusted rate of 11.5 to 12 million car and truck sales.

In a related development, Saturn dealers hope to spin off Saturn from GM into a new company, said Dan Januska, owner of Saturn of Scottsdale in Arizona. Mr. Januska, who is on the Saturn Dealer Council, said Saturn dealers would be open to selling vehicles made by Indian or Chinese makers that would be sold as Saturns.

GM Saturn spokesman Steve Janisse declined to comment

Chrysler's request for an additional $5 billion in loans is more than expected. In the past several weeks Chrysler had said it would seek $3 billion in additional aid. Its restructuring plan also said the company's two owners, Cerberus and Daimler AG, have agreed to convert $2 billion in loans to the company into stock to ease the auto maker's debt.

But Chrysler outlined few other major restructuring measures. While it said it would reduce its manufacturing capacity by 100,000 vehicles a year, that wouldn't be significant in light of its production capacity of 2.5 million vehicles at its 12 assembly plants in North America. The company's projections imply it is on track to sell slightly more than one million vehicles in the U.S. this year.

Chrysler vowed to launch 24 new vehicles in the next 48 months, but it's unclear what new vehicles Chrysler has in its pipeline. Several engineers who have left the company said they departed because they were concerned about cutbacks in development of new models. Suppliers working with Chrysler have also said they have halted or significantly slowed work on future Chrysler vehicles.

Some of the new models could come from Fiat SpA, the Italian auto maker that has a tentative alliance with Chrysler.

Kimberly Rodriguez, an auto consultant at Grant Thornton LLP, said she found Chrysler's plan "underwhelming," adding, "There just has to be more. They really have to call out the final solution. They have bitten around the corners." The Fiat alliance, she added, "is not going to be enough" to ensure Chrysler's survival.

GM's recovery plan is also the latest in a series of restructuring moves implemented by Mr. Wagoner since taking the company's helm in 2000. In his first year in office, he killed the Oldsmobile division.

But Mr. Wagoner was able to avoid a deep overhaul until 2005, when a combination of escalating labor costs and a decline in sales of profitable sport-utility vehicles collided to bring the company to a $10.4 billion loss. In late 2005, Mr. Wagoner announced tens of thousands of job cuts, several plant closings and health-care concessions with the UAW.

The plan was to put GM on solid ground by late in the decade. But a steady loss in market share, along with several strategic missteps, deepened GM's losses, forcing more than 50,000 job cuts in the U.S. and the sale of all nonstrategic assets.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Dodgefan

[ZL-1]

indeed!

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac hasn't been it's own division for ohhhh 30 years now?

[DBeaSSt]

Rather than start a new thread, here's another article. Pontiac isn't mentioned but Hummer is.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090217/bs_nm/us_gm_3

GM needs up to $30 billion in aid to avoid failure

DETROIT (Reuters) – General Motors Corp said on Tuesday it could need a total of up to $30 billion in U.S. government aid -- more than doubling its original aid -- and would run out of cash as soon as March without new federal funding.

The request for additional aid from the top U.S. automaker came in a restructuring plan GM submitted to U.S. officials on Tuesday.

The GM restructuring plan of more than 100 pages was posted on the U.S. Treasury Web site.

The request came on the same afternoon that No. 3 U.S. automaker Chrysler requested an additional $5 billion from the current $4 billion in U.S. government aid, saying it expected the brutal downturn in the U.S. market to run another three years.

GM also said it had not reached deals with bondholders and its major union to reduce some $47 billion in debt but would work to reach those agreements by the end of March.

In response to signs of a prolonged slump in demand for new cars and trucks, the automaker also said it would step up cost-cutting, reducing its global workforce by 47,000 jobs this year and cutting five additional U.S. plants by 2012.

In addition, GM said it would cut its U.S. workforce by another 20,000 jobs by 2012 with most of those reductions coming earlier.

GM has been kept afloat since the start of the year with $13.4 billion in loans from the U.S. Treasury. Its expanded aid request for up to $30 billion includes a $7.5 billion credit line in the event that the autos market remains depressed.

Critics of the bailout of GM and its smaller rival Chrysler LLC have urged the government to consider financing a court-supervised restructuring for the two ailing automakers in bankruptcy.

GM said its own analysis of the costs and risks of a bankruptcy filing would require more than $100 billion in financing that could have to be provided by the U.S. government.

GM requested an unprecedented U.S. government bailout in December and had pegged its funding need then at up to $18 billion.

But the automaker has faced a deep slide in sales outside its long-slumping home market in the weeks since and GM said its revised restructuring plan would take aim at loss-making overseas units as well.

GM also said it would plan to phase out its Saturn brand by the end of 2011 and make a decision on whether to sell or just wind down its Hummer SUV brand by the end of the current quarter.

(Editing by Matthew Lewis)

[gm4life]

Yeah so does that mean we get a select few Pontiac models? If so and they are trimming the tree that is fine, not great but so long as they live.

[ZL-1]

Why was yj's post deleted?

[Camino LS6]

The Senate will never allow a 30 billion dollar bailout.

I have no idea what this will mean in the end - but it can't be good.

[turbo200]

that's sort of what I was thinking. 30 billion is a rather devastating figure, moreso than any financial institution on which our very well being lies upon. the whole bankruptcy financing card may be their idea of an ace up thier sleeve....it'll cost more to let us go bankrupt than to help us. i just don't see that flying over very well. I thought they've have to ask for more money, but when you put the figure together and it's 30 billion...., it just sounds like a lot of money. i don't think this will fly with the various groups of our govt.

[Camino LS6]

Seems that there is more to the story:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=669106

[FAPTurbo]

As mentioned in the thread Camino posted, the WSJ is saying that Saturn wants to spin off into a seperate company.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1234912149...=googlenews_wsj

Anyone have a subscription that reveals the rest of the article?

[Satty]

I could see Saturn spinning off and going back to the original concept.

[deftonesfan867]

I could see Saturn spinning off and going back to the original concept.

x2, and you know what? For w/e reason I see a Saturn and GM doesn't come to mind...ever.

[Satty]

GM comes to mind when I see an Astra or Aura (the Aura really is just a blatant G6 rebadge) but the original S-cars and even the ION dont really have a GM corporate vibe to them.

[hyperv6]

The only way Saturn would live on as a spin off is if the a MFG form China bought them and made them in their own image.

Saturn would provide a dealer network but at what cost?

The problem is Saturn is tied to GM to close and few people are willing to pay GM's price for the dealers. Unless they can work out some agreement Satuyrn will die.

[mustang84]

I don't really understand the whole Saturn spin-off.

I also don't get the Pontiac division comment...it's a brand, not a division. Do they mean not having a full-lineup? If so, that's perfectly fine by me.

[Z-06]

The Senate will never allow a 30 billion dollar bailout.

I have no idea what this will mean in the end - but it can't be good.

that's sort of what I was thinking. 30 billion is a rather devastating figure, moreso than any financial institution on which our very well being lies upon. the whole bankruptcy financing card may be their idea of an ace up thier sleeve....it'll cost more to let us go bankrupt than to help us. i just don't see that flying over very well. I thought they've have to ask for more money, but when you put the figure together and it's 30 billion...., it just sounds like a lot of money. i don't think this will fly with the various groups of our govt.

It says a total of 30B which includes the 13.4B which they have already received. So 16.6B more.

[Robert Hall]

that's sort of what I was thinking. 30 billion is a rather devastating figure, moreso than any financial institution on which our very well being lies upon. the whole bankruptcy financing card may be their idea of an ace up thier sleeve....it'll cost more to let us go bankrupt than to help us. i just don't see that flying over very well. I thought they've have to ask for more money, but when you put the figure together and it's 30 billion...., it just sounds like a lot of money. i don't think this will fly with the various groups of our govt.

30 billion does seem like alot, but considering the $85 billion the government is putting into garbage like AIG... it's not much for a company that is much more significant.

[biff]

And my town has a fancy new Saturn dealership that opened a year ago.

[balthazar]

Porkulous package previous version was $925B, current bill plus interest is a minimum of $1.5 TRILLION, and that's just to start; who's going to blink at a mere $30B... or more accurately; $16B more ??? Few of these guys (& gals) have any earthly idea where the brake is.

[Camino LS6]

Porkulous package previous version was $925B, current bill plus interest is a minimum of $1.5 TRILLION, and that's just to start; who's going to blink at a mere $30B... or more accurately; $16B more ??? Few of these guys (& gals) have any earthly idea where the brake is.

Well, that pair of asshats Corker and Shelby will have a field day with this...

They'd rather bury the domestics as completely as possible.

[Chicagoland]

Was at Chicago Auto Show and the Pontiac, Saturn, and Saab displays were dead; very few spectators. While, the Chevy and Caddy sites were packed with lookers.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Chicagoland

[Intrepidation]

In the interest of getting the thread organized, I'm going to combine YJ's initial post and smallchevy's post of the new article, since this is the thread that the Front Page will be linked to. Just so you guys know.

P.S.

YJ, we can't always be glued in front of the computer 24/7 sometimes we have to, you know, work (my case), and can't be here to update the millisecond the news comes out. :wink:

[DBeaSSt]

I found this PD of GM's plan, reading through it now....

http://blog.robertsalomon.com/wp-content/u...cturingplan.pdf

[DBeaSSt]

Apparently I can no longer edit my posts?

Here is the document from GM's site:

http://preprodha.ecomm.gm.com:8221/us/gm/e...t/docs/plan.pdf

[GXT]

The 30 Billion is still a conservative number. GM's new worst-case forecast is still rosier than the current reality predicted by many industry experts. They are also expecting to get concessions on VEBA and from the bond holders that they are unlikely to get. Now we hear that the pension which was previously well funded is $12.7 Billion behind.

Plus much of this is based on the Q3 numbers and "for some reason" they haven't released Q4 yet. Who knows what surprises lurk in there?

Now we know their plan is to continue to cut jobs, brands, and models. It seems like the US taxpayer is paying GM to do the things they could have done for "free" (or very little) under C11, but the end results are going to be largely the same.

[Drew Dowdell]

It seems like the US taxpayer is paying GM to do the things they could have done for "free" (or very little) under C11, but the end results are going to be largely the same.

I don't buy that. Chapter 11 would have likely cost the tax payer more via debtor financing through the government.

[PurdueGuy]

At one point, Saturn wanted to buy itself from GM, but wasn't allowed to. I'm not sure there's enough of what Saturn was then for it to make sense now, though it would be interesting.

I also think that if the economy turns around, GM will rethink every last bit of this plan, and all bets are off.

[GXT]

I don't buy that. Chapter 11 would have likely cost the tax payer more via debtor financing through the government.

How's that? What exactly is the government's obligation?

[Drew Dowdell]

How's that? What exactly is the government's obligation?

Chapter 11 won't happen without government financing. If GM is forced into bankruptcy and the government won't finance it, it's going to be chapter 7 and GM is done.

[daves87rs]

Chapter 11 won't happen without government financing. If GM is forced into bankruptcy and the government won't finance it, it's going to be chapter 7 and GM is done.

Yep.

And there has been rumors that certain people want it that way...

More money for Wall Street, I guess....

[GXT]

Chapter 11 won't happen without government financing. If GM is forced into bankruptcy and the government won't finance it, it's going to be chapter 7 and GM is done.

Gotcha. My mistake, looks like it is Chapter 7 time then.

Even under the Ch 11 scenarios proposed by GM in their latest plan, I believe the "Pre solicited" and "Cram Down" processes will be cheaper than what the US tax payer is about to foot if things continue as-is. But I have no idea if GM is overstating the CH11 costs as much as they are understating how much support they will need without going CH11.

A lot of their downside to CH11 involves the market share loss that goes with it. I have news for them, with the publicity their situation is having that is going to happen regardless. But I don't think that is sufficiently factored into their non-CH11 scenario (they are predicting 20% US market share by 2012... which I believe is about what they had in Jan 09).

Edited February 18, 2009 by GXT

[buyacargetacheck]

Yeah, I don't understand their math. How is it they go from 22% to 20% with the loss of Saturn, Saab, Hummer and most of Pontiac? All four of those brands combined accounted for almost 4 points of market share in 2008. Unbelievable sales from Camaro, Orlando and Cruze maybe?

BTW, I think a quick and dirty Chapter 7 liquidation is best for both GM and Chrysler. Put all the good pieces of both companies into one new one and auction off the rest.

But I don't think that is sufficiently factored into their non-CH11 scenario (they are predicting 20% US market share by 2012... which I believe is about what they had in Jan 09).

Edited February 18, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[gm4life]

At one point, Saturn wanted to buy itself from GM, but wasn't allowed to. I'm not sure there's enough of what Saturn was then for it to make sense now, though it would be interesting.

I also think that if the economy turns around, GM will rethink every last bit of this plan, and all bets are off.

I would bet not, unless someone buys Saturn it is gone. Sorry Saturn in its early years had a purpose now it doesn't.

[gm4life]

Chapter 11 won't happen without government financing. If GM is forced into bankruptcy and the government won't finance it, it's going to be chapter 7 and GM is done.

Not sure I agree with that, but it is a good point of view and well taken none the less.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, I don't understand their math. How is it they go from 22% to 20% with the loss of Saturn, Saab, Hummer and most of Pontiac? All four of those brands combined accounted for almost 4 points of market share in 2008. Unbelievable sales from Camaro, Orlando and Cruze maybe?

BTW, I think a quick and dirty Chapter 7 liquidation is best for both GM and Chrysler. Put all the good pieces of both companies into one new one and auction off the rest.

I'm not sure either...

But they claimed to be at a stable 21% RETAIL in January.

*shrugs*

(And, I didn't thing Saab, Saturn and Hummer accounted for more than a point or two combined. Now Pontiac, on the other hand....)

[Intrepidation]

I would bet not, unless someone buys Saturn it is gone. Sorry Saturn in its early years had a purpose now it doesn't.

Sounds a lot like Pontiac too.

[Blake Noble]

YJ, we can't always be glued in front of the computer 24/7 sometimes we have to, you know, work (my case), and can't be here to update the millisecond the news comes out. :wink:

Luckily, I had a day off. :wink:

[daves87rs]

Sounds a lot like Pontiac too.

Maybe, maybe not....

[buyacargetacheck]

So what happens with Pontiac?

G3 -- Never happens?

G5 -- Delta I stops production in 2010

G6 -- Orion one of the 5 plants to be closed in '09?

G8 -- Cancelled in 2011-12?

Solstice -- Kappa cancelled in 2011-12?

Vibe -- 5 year lifecycle through to 2012? Is Vibe the one Pontiac that remains longest?

[CaddyXLR-V]

I just still can't believe Buick is a core brand. Everyone I have talked to about the situation is shocked that Buick is more important than Pontiac. This is also the primary reason GM is not finding it's way to my car shopping list. If GM were to say they were keeping Chevy GMC and Cadillac only, that's one thing. But to see Pontiac reduced to nothing, while Buick gets everything, is another.

[CaddyXLR-V]

How's that? What exactly is the government's obligation?

What if the government took over GM's pensions? That alone would cost more than it would to loan GM another $16.6B

[cire]

Sounds a lot like Pontiac too.

I agree. GM has had countless opportunities to make this brand relevant and well defined and has dropped the ball every single blasted time. GM has allowed the brand's dealers to push this brand into total irrelevance and extinction by giving in to the dealers' demands for too many "me too" products. Now all that's left is a severely damaged brand with a huge identity crisis.

I think GM is correct in trying to expand and reinvent Buick. Buick still has a somewhat premium perception in the market, it's just a matter of shifting the brand's image from stodgy to cool. The right products and marketing can do this (Hint to GM: Please don't allow the same people who came up with Saturn's dorky "RETHINK" campaign to handle this crucial assignment for Buick). Pontiac has been saddled with so many Chevy clones over the years that many people view it as just another affordable alternative to Chevrolet. Trying to elevate Pontiac's image and pricing structure to premium or near luxury levels would require much more effort and resources at this point.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why can't Saturn/Saab/Hummer be spun off to one company? You'd have your everyman brand, your luxury brand, and your channel for trucks.

[buyacargetacheck]

Who'd want it? Hummer is radioactive in the US. Even the Swedes have said Saab is hopeless financially and has no potential. Saturn's dealer chain might be tempting but there are too many cars out there for sale and not enough buyers. Not even the Chinese are interested in investing funds to sell cars here now.

What we're collectively doing as a country is kicking the can down the road with government bailouts in the hope that the future, when it comes, will solve the problem. But it hasn't and won't work. There's too much productive capacity in the auto industry, and some companies/makes/models need to die for the betterment of the entire industry. Some tough love needs to be administered to Chrysler and GM now or Ford is going to find its way to the trough and all three will be at risk. I'd rather see one solid American car company thrive than three that limp along for years like British Leyland/AustinRover/Rover Group/MG Rover did.

Why can't Saturn/Saab/Hummer be spun off to one company? You'd have your everyman brand, your luxury brand, and your channel for trucks.

Edited February 19, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So what happens with Pontiac?

G3 -- Never happens?

G5 -- Delta I stops production in 2010

G6 -- Orion one of the 5 plants to be closed in '09?

Correct, I'm assuming

G8 -- Cancelled in 2011-12?

G8 and Zeta are viable through 2016

Solstice -- Kappa cancelled in 2011-12?

Kappa could be kept around for as long as GM wants to build it (I hope they don't let it wither, though) Maybe Kappa can be moved to BG like originally planned (especially now that the XLR is toast) The next Solstice could (as planned) be spawned from Y-body (especially now that the XLR is toast ) Unless Cadillac will want back on the program, which I kind of hope they will, but then again, I'd also kind of like to see Cadillac bring out a world beater sedan instead of a performance car.

Of course, all of this is my speculation.

Vibe -- 5 year lifecycle through to 2012? Is Vibe the one Pontiac that remains longest?

I guess they could milk it longer... Maybe a GMDAT replacement for the Vibe?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I just still can't believe Buick is a core brand. Everyone I have talked to about the situation is shocked that Buick is more important than Pontiac. This is also the primary reason GM is not finding it's way to my car shopping list. If GM were to say they were keeping Chevy GMC and Cadillac only, that's one thing. But to see Pontiac reduced to nothing, while Buick gets everything, is another.

Simple...

1) GM is a global company and is structuring itself as such. The major growth in our lifetimes will come from China and India. The US is a mature market, and probably -- unfortunately (I hope I'm wrong) a shrinking market for GM. Buick has a global presence that saved it's ass. Pontiac does not AND Pontiac basically duplicates Chevrolet in the market unless it's a nice performance brand (which I hope GM fulfills it's promise of) So instead of 3 divisions fighting for the volume seller spot (Saturn, Chevrolet and Pontiac) GM has (naturally) given Chevy the nod, killed Saturn (because it's the easiest to kill) and reduced Pontiac to hopefully something very promising.

2) GM isn't worried about share anymore. If it can sell 2 Buicks for every 4 Pontiacs it sold and sell them at a better ROI (profit point; READ: not to fleet) then mission accomplished. The current Opels are too upscale to be passed off as Pontiacs (save for the Astra) without decontenting the hell out of them. If GM tried that, it would lose sales and lose it's ass profit-wise. GM previously believed that the Opels were too sporty to be Buicks. These factors made the Opel-Saturn marriage a perfect fit. But with the dire straights the company is in now, and Saturns failure to sell the cars (even though that was more the fault of GM as a whole) that makes Buick the new dancing partner. (which is a complete reversal of the 2005 plan) I'd say the performance of the Enclave raised a few eyebrows in the RenCen as well and saved Buick from death.

I just hope this plan works... Chevrolet and Cadillac (if it gets product) will both be fine and I think Buick has huge potential given certain aspects of the brands image. However, if GM f*cks the marketing up like they typically do, I don't see Buick lasting long. I also think that GM needs to give Pontiac a very focused line up that will begin to rebuild the image of the division AND I think that Saab should be retained and allowed to operate independently, concentrate on increasing it's global pressence and make america a high 2nd priority. (i.e. Sell well here, but grow big where you're strengths are)

[DBeaSSt]

I've been pondering a lineup for B-P-G based on Saturn going away and Pontiac becoming 'niche'.

My two cents worth:

Buick:

Regal (or some other named, Opel based "entry" model, basically a reworked Aura with a content/price point starting just above the Malibu LTZ)

LaCrosse

Lucerne (though it needs some updating)

Enclave

Pontiac:

G6 (coupe and convertible ONLY)

Solstice

G8

GMC: (not a market of interest to me so I'm not to sure here)

Acadia (priced and content below Enclave but above the Traverse)

Yukon

Sierra

Canyon

Hummer (make the H3/H3t just a Hummer, sell as a premium offroad model under GMC, maybe not doable but a way to keep the brand alive as a niche product)

Hardly perfect I'm sure but my ponderings none the less.

[Intrepidation]

I think there's some irony here. For months "analysts" and many other people were saying that one of the Detroit 3 would not survive in its current form and at the very least would loose some of its brands. For a while Chrysler was the punching bag for this almost universally. However, for now any Chrysler has its 3 brands intact and has no plans to close any of them down. GM on the other hand could very well be down four brands in a few years in NA.

It's a shame that it should come to this.

[daves87rs]

So what happens with Pontiac?

G3 -- Never happens?

G5 -- Delta I stops production in 2010

G6 -- Orion one of the 5 plants to be closed in '09?

G8 -- Cancelled in 2011-12?

Solstice -- Kappa cancelled in 2011-12?

Vibe -- 5 year lifecycle through to 2012? Is Vibe the one Pontiac that remains longest?

G3-yes

G5-yes

G6-yes

G8-yes, maybe sooner

Solstice-it depends on economy...

Vibe- Toast-Toyota will be dumping the Matrix very soon.....they are giving Vibes (and Matrix) a 199 a month-No money down......

[gm4life]

I think the current plan just might work. I do have some hope for Pontiac (now that Saturn is toast) getting an Astra along with a fresh G6, a MCE on the Solstice keeping G8 with some updates and Vibe for the model cycle they could stay viable pretty easy. Saturn can be either dropped or taken over by the dealers which ever they want to do, just stop taking GM's money and give it too Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC and Pontiac where it belongs. As for the Vibe and G6 specifically my "small town" GM dealer has three Vibes, 2 G6's and cannot keep the Vibes on the lot and also has been moving lots of G6's with 4 cylinder six speed automatic combo. Sold more G6's in the past year than the new Malibu and nearly as many as they did Impala's.

Edited February 19, 2009 by gm4life