European strategy seemed sound -- but Saturn sank

[Oracle of Delphi]

David Sedgwick

Automotive News

February 13, 2009 - 11:42 am ET

I was a believer. I really thought Saturn could succeed -- if only General Motors would Europeanize the brand.

I saw the light -- or so I thought -- in 2004 during a GM press trip at a swanky resort in Fayence, a town near the French Riviera.

I offered Bob Lutz some free advice: Borrow Opel's cars for the U.S. market. American motorists would appreciate compact Euro cars with sporty handling.

He smiled -- Lutz was way ahead of me on this one. He invited me to join him down on the lawn, where half a dozen Saturns and soon-to-be-Saturns were lined up.

It was just before the Paris auto show. That evening, GM's senior executives wanted to explain how they were globalizing their product lineup. Saturn was Exhibit A. Displayed on the lawn were the Saturn Sky roadster and Aura sedan, the Opel Astra -- which later joined the Saturn lineup -- and the Opel Antara concept, which inspired the Saturn Vue crossover.

I gaped. Lutz and GM's product planners had Opelized Saturn. It seemed like a sure bet: GM had created Saturn to appeal to import intenders. Now it was the real deal.

The next day, we drove GM's cars over winding mountain roads to a racetrack that the company had reserved for the day. Lutz held forth at trackside, eating cheese with a knife and explaining the company's plan to go global.

I was convinced. That morning, I'd ridden shotgun with Fritz Henderson as he gunned an Opel Astra hatchback up a mountain road. A younger Sedgwick in need of affordable transportation might have purchased that car on the spot.

Five years later, Saturn is on the ropes. The cars aren't selling, and American consumers are oblivious to Saturn's European flavor.

What went wrong? Saturn couldn't make enough noise. It was lost in the cacophony of GM's eight brands. Lutz and GM have had a number of product successes -- the Pontiac Solstice, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Chevy Malibu.

But they were spread across all those brands. Perhaps if all those cars were Chevys or Cadillacs, GM wouldn't need a bailout. But how do you compensate all those dealers who sell the other brands?

I don't have any answer for that, and Lutz doesn't seem to either. But I can't help thinking that GM left a big opportunity by the side of a French mountain road.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20090213/A...paign_id=alerts

Edited February 14, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Sixty8panther]

Stick a fork in Saturn, they're DONE.

Pontiac should get down to business concentrating on a mostly-RWD

lineup, (too bad it can't be ALL RWD) and they should get any & all

the European sports-minded econo-boxes from no on. Kill Saturn.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Stick a fork in Saturn, they're DONE.

Pontiac should get down to business concentrating on a mostly-RWD

lineup, (too bad it can't be ALL RWD) and they should get any & all

the European sports-minded econo-boxes from no on. Kill Saturn.

After you're done sticking your fork in Saturn, get ready to stick into Pontiac, It's a dead brand walking ...

[Intrepidation]

Well no f@#king $h!. I mean really. You take a brand known for economy cars, replace them with much more expensive cars, then don't market them. What the hell did they think was going to happen?

[cire]

Well no f@#king $h!. I mean really. You take a brand known for economy cars, replace them with much more expensive cars, then don't market them. What the hell did they think was going to happen?

Right On!

[regfootball]

why they keep buick and axe pontiac is beyond me. i get that saturn likely has to die, but pontiac IMHO can coexist with Buick.....and buick will NEVER appeal to a youthful demographic unless Jesus comes down to earth and turns a LeSabre into a......BMW3 or something.....

[Intrepidation]

why they keep buick and axe pontiac is beyond me. i get that saturn likely has to die, but pontiac IMHO can coexist with Buick.....and buick will NEVER appeal to a youthful demographic unless Jesus comes down to earth and turns a LeSabre into a......BMW3 or something.....

Funny, the Enclave has done a pretty damn good job at appealing to younger people. WHy? Because it's the first Buick in a long time that isn't styled boringly, and isn't half-assed. The new LaCrosse looks to continue this.

Buick makes sense because it still has cache as being premium.

[ZL-1]

Funny, the Enclave has done a pretty damn good job at appealing to younger people. WHy? Because it's the first Buick in a long time that isn't styled boringly, and isn't half-assed. The new LaCrosse looks to continue this.

Buick makes sense because it still has cache as being premium.

^^^This

[Oracle of Delphi]

Three billion screaming Chinese can't be wrong ...

[cire]

I still think GM went the wrong way with their alignment strategies. Opel should have been aligned with B-P-G in an effort to take the network upmarket and position them away from Chevrolet. Saturn should have been aligned with the NUMMI arrangement since the brand was supposed to be an Asian import fighter that sold products that were developed outside of the GM "in house" corporate structure.

This alignment would have allowed GM to accomplish the following goals:

1) Finally and permanently position Pontiac upmarket, relevant, and totally separated from Chevrolet. With smaller and sportier Opel products available to B-P-G, Pontiac would no longer need to carry rebadged Chevy clone products.

2) Restore Saturn's original image as a brand that operates somewhat outside of GM's corporate influence. If the brand is supposed to appeal to people who are repulsed by the very thought of driving an "in house" developed GM product, then aligning Saturn with the NUMMI deal seems like it would have been a more logical direction for the brand (instead of trying to transform Saturn into Oldsmobile). A 3 product family of compact vehicles (sedan, coupe, and tall wagon) could have been developed on the Corolla/Matrix platform and produced at the NUMMI location for Saturn. This alignment would have really taken off last year when gas prices were more than double what they are now and many people were scrambling to find smaller, more fuel efficient rides. Saturn (which already had an established image as an affordable small car brand) would have been there ready to pounce on this opportunity instead of experiencing a brand image crisis that has crippled the brand and rendered the total endeavor as useless (although creating another brand was not the answer to GM's problems back in the 80's anyway; developing/building competitive products and delivering first class customer service within their existing brand structure would have been much more effective). If Saturn's initial setup (dedicated design team and manufacturing facility) was becoming too expensive for GM to maintain, then the NUMMI arrangement seems like it would have been a more cost effective "next best thing". NUMMI produced products certainly make more sense for Saturn than Pontiac, which is definitely perceived as being linked to GM's "in house" corporate structure by the general public in North America.

3) A Z4/SLK competitor could have been developed on Kappa for Cadillac. If Opel would have been aligned with B-P-G, then the Sky/Opel GT would have been the Solstice and GM would have been able to develop a true small luxury roadster on Kappa for Cadillac (which maybe would have been more profitable for GM and would have better justified the development money spent on the Kappa platform). Instead, GM developed 2 affordable variants that essentially competed with each other while essentially providing no profits from the Kappa platform (from what I understand, GM loses money on each one it builds).

Aligning the networks in this fashion would not have entirely prevented GM's current financial woes (if at all), but it would have at least better sorted out and positioned some of the corporation's brands as well as made the corporation appear (in Saturn's case) dedicated to producing smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles (which seems to be a major crusade of the government at the moment). How much better would GM look to the government (especially when asking for loan money) if it had a brand (Saturn) dedicated to compact products instead of an irrelevant "wannabe premium" fullscale division with a serious identity crisis (instead of a definite purpose)?

[Oracle of Delphi]

I helped kill Saturn when it was outside the corporate structure, and I would do it again if it went back to that, as far as NUMMI is concerned, that deal should have died a long time ago, but I think what is about to happen to Pontiac will accomplish the same goal ...

[Intrepidation]

I helped kill Saturn when it was outside the corporate structure, and I would do it again if it went back to that, as far as NUMMI is concerned, that deal should have died a long time ago, but I think what is about to happen to Pontiac will accomplish the same goal ...

Yeah because apparently you guys at GM really know how to successfully structure the corporation.

[cire]

I helped kill Saturn when it was outside the corporate structure, and I would do it again if it went back to that, as far as NUMMI is concerned, that deal should have died a long time ago, but I think what is about to happen to Pontiac will accomplish the same goal ...

So basically GM's arrangement with NUMMI is eventually going to dissolve? I have no problems with that. I am not a big NUMMI supporter either. I just thought that if GM is stuck in that arrangement, why not use it more effectively with Saturn? I wouldn't really be that disappointed to see both Saturn and the NUMMI deal disappear entirely. This would help GMNA to become more focused.

I would like to see Pontiac continue as some type of focused niche sub-brand in B-P-G. It will have to be in some form other than the RWD affordable performance vein that many people on this forum (myself included) would like to see for the brand, though. I think Buick should be the high profile premium division in B-P-G, but Pontiac could still play a small supporting role.

Edited February 15, 2009 by cire

[cire]

Funny, the Enclave has done a pretty damn good job at appealing to younger people. WHy? Because it's the first Buick in a long time that isn't styled boringly, and isn't half-assed. The new LaCrosse looks to continue this.

Buick makes sense because it still has cache as being premium.

Right On Again! Buick has the potential to become a cool and relevant premium brand. It just needs the proper products and marketing. Any potential Pontiac had to take on a high profile role in the premium segment was wasted when GM continued to feed the brand with blatant rebadged Chevrolet clone vehicles. I still think Pontiac has a place and could participate in B-P-G's move upmarket, but in a smaller role as a sub-brand. I think it will require less effort and fewer resources to make Buick relevant in a segment where it already exists than to try to move Saturn or Pontiac (brands that are saddled with an affordable image) upmarket.

[cire]

Yeah because apparently you guys at GM really know how to successfully structure the corporation.

OUCH!

[Intrepidation]

Really it just needs to go down to Chevy, Buick, Cadillac, because that's all GM seems to be able to handle...but even then we've got FWD Caddies coming left and right...so I dunno if they can even manage 3 brands. there's no proper replacement for the STS/DTS, there wasn't even a planned one to be canceled, they just never seemed to bother. I doubt we will see Alpha. Hell I bet the new small Cadillac will be a Delta II.

[Intrepidation]

GM had decades to get it's brands managed and in order. It had the money then to provide them with distinct product, for many years. Yet it never did, so now the lack of money, which is mostly their own fault (with decades of crap and half-assed products with only a few exceptions) is just a convenient excuse why they have to kill off brands.

Sometimes it's really frustrating...because even now GM doesn't seem to know what to do. meanwhile, over at Ford...

[cire]

GM had decades to get it's brands managed and in order. It had the money then to provide them with distinct product, for many years. Yet it never did, so now the lack of money, which is mostly their own fault (with decades of crap and half-assed products with only a few exceptions) is just a convenient excuse why they have to kill off brands.

Sometimes it's really frustrating...because even now GM doesn't seem to know what to do. meanwhile, over at Ford...

Right On Yet Again! What's even worse is that the corporation compounded their issues by developing and acquiring brands while the perception of their existing brands continued to decay. GM should have focused on fixing their problems (uncompetitive products and below par customer service) within their existing brand structure instead of wasting effort and resources taking on Geo, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer. Anything that these brands had to offer could have been implemented with or developed for their existing brands. GM didn't need to waste money to develop or acquire additional brands to essentially accomplish nothing. If they were struggling to supply competitive products to Chevrolet, Pontiac, GMC, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadillac, why did they think they could do it with even more brands to support?

Edited February 15, 2009 by cire

[Z-06]

Yeah because apparently you guys at GM-E really know how to successfully structure the corporation.

Fixed

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah because apparently you guys at GM really know how to successfully structure the corporation.

You will have to blame GMNA, not GME, they made all those decades of bad decisions. Don't be surprised if GM goes into Chapter 11, on 2/17/09, if that happens, kiss many brands goodbye and GM as you have known it will cease to exist. I kind of like what may rise from the ashes, but not too sure how many here will. But I'm sure you'll be able to Monday morning quarterback that too ...

[Intrepidation]

You will have to blame GMNA, not GME, they made all those decades of bad decisions. Don't be surprised if GM goes into Chapter 11, on 2/17/09, if that happens, kiss many brands goodbye and GM as you have known it will cease to exist. I kind of like what may rise from the ashes, but not too sure how many here will. But I'm sure you'll be able to Monday morning quarterback that too ...

It wasn't really directed at you, althought it may have seemed like it since you claimed to being killing Saturn originally to bring it in line with the "corporate structure".

However certainly a lot of people in charge are to blame for poorly handling the company for many years. And if you think that the corporate structure GM has is working well for it, I beg to differ.

[Intrepidation]

Also, for a devision that seems to claim itself as being able to do no wrong, I wonder why GME/Opel/Vauxhall have been looked down upon by Europeans for years?

[Drew Dowdell]

Also, for a devision that seems to claim itself as being able to do no wrong, I wonder why GME/Opel/Vauxhall have been looked down upon by Europeans for years?

Only in the latest generations has Opel really had anything worth importing to the U.S.

[regfootball]

I helped kill Saturn when it was outside the corporate structure, and I would do it again if it went back to that, as far as NUMMI is concerned, that deal should have died a long time ago, but I think what is about to happen to Pontiac will accomplish the same goal ...

I am just to the point where all I really want is a true Opel. So saturn will die, pontiac will die, and chevy is about to become rebadged daewoos. didn't want a chevy anyways.

Yuk, i just don't want a Buick.

NUMMI needs to fking die already.

Edited February 15, 2009 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Funny, the Enclave has done a pretty damn good job at appealing to younger people. WHy? Because it's the first Buick in a long time that isn't styled boringly, and isn't half-assed. The new LaCrosse looks to continue this.

Buick makes sense because it still has cache as being premium.

i've only seen the 50+ set (often with white hair) driving enclaves.

[regfootball]

You will have to blame GMNA, not GME, they made all those decades of bad decisions. Don't be surprised if GM goes into Chapter 11, on 2/17/09, if that happens, kiss many brands goodbye and GM as you have known it will cease to exist. I kind of like what may rise from the ashes, but not too sure how many here will. But I'm sure you'll be able to Monday morning quarterback that too ...

2/17 is a tuesday....

[Intrepidation]

i've only seen the 50+ set (often with white hair) driving enclaves.

I think we've been over this before: what you see locally is often not an accurate representation of what goes on in the entire country.

[regfootball]

I think we've been over this before: what you see locally is often not an accurate representation of what goes on in the entire country.

and you have looooonnnngggg list of people who are 30, 2 kids, driving enclaves.

[Intrepidation]

and you have looooonnnngggg list of people who are 30, 2 kids, driving enclaves.

No because I don't pull over and question every person I see driving a vehicle.

You have to try to understand: in order to get a somewhat accurate statistic you need a large sample over a broad region. Not with 2 miles of where you live.

[ehaase]

You will have to blame GMNA, not GME, they made all those decades of bad decisions. Don't be surprised if GM goes into Chapter 11, on 2/17/09, if that happens, kiss many brands goodbye and GM as you have known it will cease to exist. I kind of like what may rise from the ashes, but not too sure how many here will. But I'm sure you'll be able to Monday morning quarterback that too ...

It wouldn't surprise me if what rises from the ashes is the Chevrolet Motor Corporation with a Korean or Mexican built Aveo and Cruze, the Silverado and Suburban, and a crossover or two.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is further proof as to why Saturn should be retained and turned into a premium small car division.

Buick will never be able to successfully market an Astra or anything smaller. Hell, Buick will be lucky if it doesn't suffer the same fate as Saturn in a few years (Unless GM gets it's marketing $h! in gear)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It wasn't really directed at you, althought it may have seemed like it since you claimed to being killing Saturn originally to bring it in line with the "corporate structure".

However certainly a lot of people in charge are to blame for poorly handling the company for many years. And if you think that the corporate structure GM has is working well for it, I beg to differ.

PCS need not even be dignified with a response...

GME has been all sorts of f@#kED UP for so long now that it's pathetic. GMNA might not be so bad off now had it not had to save GME's ass a few years back.

The Opel product is just as half-assed as the GMNA product. The Aura was dated, the Astra is a joke, and the the Antara is a fat pig. The ONLY reason we haven't been reading bad things about those products is because they sell so little that NO ONE outside of us nows that they exist.

"Opel will save Saturn...."

"Opel will save Buick...."

"Saab has friends in high places and is safe..."

"CPF doesn't think there is a need for Buick..."

"Holden is dead; Chevrolet will take its place..."

The bull$h! is so deep on this message board that I can smell it through my monitor.

[Oracle of Delphi]

PCS need not even be dignified with a response...

GME has been all sorts of f@#kED UP for so long now that it's pathetic. GMNA might not be so bad off now had it not had to save GME's ass a few years back.

The Opel product is just as half-assed as the GMNA product. The Aura was dated, the Astra is a joke, and the the Antara is a fat pig. The ONLY reason we haven't been reading bad things about those products is because they sell so little that NO ONE outside of us nows that they exist.

"Opel will save Saturn...."

"Opel will save Buick...."

"Saab has friends in high places and is safe..."

"CPF doesn't think there is a need for Buick..."

"Holden is dead; Chevrolet will take its place..."

The bull$h! is so deep on this message board that I can smell it through my monitor.

Hmmm,

GMNA - GME please save Saturn ...

GME - OK ...

GMNA - Wait, wait we changed our mind, please save Buick now ...

GME - OK, What about Saturn ...

GMNA - Let it die ...

As for Saab, I have a feeling it will become more independent, but GM will retain control ...

As for Holden, the Delta II is on it's way, so the Chevy sign shouldn't be far away, of coures it could always change to GMDAT I guess ...

As for that smell, I think what your smelling is North Carolina, but I could be wrong ...

2/17/09 should be interesting to say the least ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Hmmm,

GMNA - GME please save Saturn ...

GME - OK ...

GMNA - Wait, wait we changed our mind, please save Buick now ...

GME - OK, What about Saturn ...

GMNA - Let it die ...

As for Saab, I have a feeling it will become more independent, but GM will retain control ...

As for Holden, the Delta II is on it's way, so the Chevy sign shouldn't be far away, of coures it could always change to GMDAT I guess ...

As for that smell, I think what your smelling is North Carolina, but I could be wrong ...

2/17/09 should be interesting to say the least ...

What's wrong?

Did I hit a nerve?

It's okay... We can't all be right 100% of the time. (Or in your case 25-30% of the time)

As far as that smell... I think it's that German's ass that I just burned. (Not yours of course, just some random guy that I lit ablaze here at the bar)

[regfootball]

PCS need not even be dignified with a response...

GME has been all sorts of f@#kED UP for so long now that it's pathetic. GMNA might not be so bad off now had it not had to save GME's ass a few years back.

The Opel product is just as half-assed as the GMNA product. The Aura was dated, the Astra is a joke, and the the Antara is a fat pig. The ONLY reason we haven't been reading bad things about those products is because they sell so little that NO ONE outside of us nows that they exist.

"Opel will save Saturn...."

"Opel will save Buick...."

"Saab has friends in high places and is safe..."

"CPF doesn't think there is a need for Buick..."

"Holden is dead; Chevrolet will take its place..."

The bull$h! is so deep on this message board that I can smell it through my monitor.

the aura that is the same car as C/D ten best malibu?

the vue which is a far better vehicle than the rav4/crv

the same astra which outscores the fit, mini, and civic on edmunds.com user ratings? (as well as corolla, sentra, versa, yaris, impreza, and competing VW's?)

focus too, BTW.....

Edited February 16, 2009 by regfootball

[Oracle of Delphi]

What's wrong?

Did I hit a nerve?

It's okay... We can't all be right 100% of the time. (Or in your case 25-30% of the time)

As far as that smell... I think it's that German's ass that I just burned. (Not yours of course, just some random guy that I lit ablaze here at the bar)

Hit a nerve? Hardly ... Let's just see what the future brings, shall we? As far as lighting someone's ass, that is just your online persona talking, they real you is shyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

the aura that is the same car as C/D ten best malibu?

Nah... The Malibu is much better.

the vue which is a far better vehicle than the rav4/crv

The Taurus is supposedly a much better car than the Charger too, but who sells more? (Just to use one of your other arguments)

the same astra which outscores the fit, mini, and civic on edmunds.com user ratings? (as well as corolla, sentra, versa, yaris, impreza, and competing VW's?)

focus too, BTW.....

The same Astra that can't even move 50K per year and subsequently won't have a 2009 model year run?

Stop being a minion for PCS, you're better than that.

Edited February 16, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Hit a nerve? Hardly ... Let's just see what the future brings, shall we? As far as lighting someone's ass, that is just your online persona talking, they real you is shyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy ...

What do I care about the future? I have enough invested in classic iron to "get me off" for years to come.

As far as me being shy... Yep, that's true but you forgot about the "unless I'm passionate about something" part in which I liken myself to a hellhound.

[buyacargetacheck]

Selling Opels through Saturn was a nice try but doomed to failure. Mass-market European cars just don't sell well in the US and Canada. There are some exceptions, but in general...

The good news is that Saturn has been successful in doing what it was established to do: show the GM establishment that manufacturing and customer service could be done a different, better way. It was an expensive experiment, one that wouldn't have been needed had GM not been so successful and dominant for so long.

[cire]

The Opel product is just as half-assed as the GMNA product. The Aura was dated, the Astra is a joke, and the the Antara is a fat pig. The ONLY reason we haven't been reading bad things about those products is because they sell so little that NO ONE outside of us nows that they exist.

The one misconception that I keep seeing about the Aura is that it is a straight rebadge of the Opel Vectra. From what I understand, the Aura never was an Opel product. It is a GMNA product that is styled to look like an Opel (sort of like the Outlook, except that the Outlook's Opel imitation is less convincing). The only items remotely shared between the Vectra and the Aura are a few Opel derived design cues; other than that, they are completely different (the Aura is much better looking than the Vectra; I consider NA fortunate to have it instead of a straight Vectra rebadge). To me, the Vectra had more in common with the last gen Malibu (overall ungainly exterior shape of the sedan as well as wheelbase) than it ever had with the Aura. The Aura's less than stellar sales performance is due to the fact that it is sold through a smaller dealership base that receives limited marketing as well as the fact that the high profile mainstream platform mate that followed it (2008 Malibu) was better executed; it has nothing to do with Opel because the product is not really an Opel.

[cire]

This is further proof as to why Saturn should be retained and turned into a premium small car division.

Buick will never be able to successfully market an Astra or anything smaller. Hell, Buick will be lucky if it doesn't suffer the same fate as Saturn in a few years (Unless GM gets it's marketing $h! in gear)

I think Buick could successfully sell something that looked like this:

Visit My Website

Visit My Website

Source: Auto Express

A couple of suggestions if GM does assign the Astra 5-door/3-door to Buick:

1) Don't use any historic Buick model names on this product. If the intention is to use the product to attract new demographics to the brand, then a fresh model name needs to be applied to this vehicle to let people know that this is not your grandpa's Buick.

2) Develop an alternate Buick grille for this product. Waterfall grilles are fine for sedans, wagons, and crossovers. Small and sporty premium hatchbacks (and coupes) need something sportier and less formal. If Mercedes can use 2 different grille designs for their products, then Buick can do it too.

I think Buick is capable of more than people think. All the brand needs is modern, well executed premium products and some cool advertising to effectively transform its image. It still has some premium mojo left; it's just a matter of transforming it from stodgy and outdated to cool and modern. The Enclave and upcoming LaCrosse (which should still be named "Invicta") are great starting points to launch this transformation. Adding North American built rebadged Opel products to the mix (starting with the Insignia) should help to reinforce the brand's transformation.

Moving Saturn upmarket to be any type of premium brand or sub-brand will be difficult because of the affordable origins of the brand. Trying to move any mainstream or affordable brand upmarket is always an extremely daunting task. VW and Subaru have both attempted, failed, and abandoned their attempts and claims to move upmarket because the buying public didn't accept them on this level.

Edited February 16, 2009 by cire

[regfootball]

Nah... The Malibu is much better.

The Taurus is supposedly a much better car than the Charger too, but who sells more? (Just to use one of your other arguments)

The same Astra that can't even move 50K per year and subsequently won't have a 2009 model year run?

Stop being a minion for PCS, you're better than that.

the malibu and aura are the 98% the same fking car. drive them. actually i prefer the aura 51/49 myself. the notion of the aura and malibu being so vastly different is nothing but pure hogwash. even the seat freaking fabric is the same. dear lord, you buy the hype.

the main substantive difference is the dashboard and some other interior trim. I think the aura's suspension might be tuned a little differently as well. the malibu might be a tish quieter. there is not enough difference to make the malibu the better car. its simply a styling decision.

[regfootball]

I think Buick could successfully sell something that looked like this:

Visit My Website

Visit My Website

Source: Auto Express

A couple of suggestions if GM does assign the Astra 5-door/3-door to Buick:

1) Don't use any historic Buick model names on this product. If the intention is to use the product to attract new demographics to the brand, then a fresh model name needs to be applied to this vehicle to let people know that this is not your grandpa's Buick.

2) Develop an alternate Buick grille for this product. Waterfall grilles are fine for sedans, wagons, and crossovers. Small and sporty premium hatchbacks (and coupes) need something sportier and less formal. If Mercedes can use 2 different grille designs for their products, then Buick can do it too.

I think Buick is capable of more than people think. All the brand needs is modern, well executed premium products and some cool advertising to effectively transform its image. It still has some premium mojo left; it's just a matter of transforming it from stodgy and outdated to cool and modern. The Enclave and upcoming LaCrosse (which should still be named "Invicta") are great starting points to launch this transformation. Adding North American built rebadged Opel products to the mix (starting with the Insignia) should help to reinforce the brand's transformation.

Moving Saturn upmarket to be any type of premium brand or sub-brand will be difficult because of the affordable origins of the brand. Trying to move any mainstream or affordable brand upmarket is always an extremely daunting task. VW and Subaru have both attempted, failed, and abandoned their attempts and claims to move upmarket because the buying public didn't accept them on this level.

the only chance buick has of marketing the astra is the sedan. pontiac should get the astra IMHO. kill the vibe and g5. go astra, g6 (grand am), and g8 (grand prix).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

the malibu and aura are the 98% the same fking car. drive them. actually i prefer the aura 51/49 myself. the notion of the aura and malibu being so vastly different is nothing but pure hogwash. even the seat freaking fabric is the same. dear lord, you buy the hype.

Nope.

It all goes back to perception and style. Like I told you in the Saab thread, style and image account for a lot. This is one of the main reasons that the Malibu sells better.

(And it's that way throughout the market, otherwise you wouldn't have successful 'duplicate' brands like Audi, Acura and Infiniti)

the main substantive difference is the dashboard and some other interior trim. I think the aura's suspension might be tuned a little differently as well. the malibu might be a tish quieter. there is not enough difference to make the malibu the better car. its simply a styling decision.

Different interior, different suspension, different sound quality, different styling... In that description, you also just described/highlighted the main differences between a Lincoln LS and a Mustang. (I know that's an exaggeration. But the point is valid: the two cars are NOT the same)

Edited February 17, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[cire]

the only chance buick has of marketing the astra is the sedan. pontiac should get the astra IMHO. kill the vibe and g5. go astra, g6 (grand am), and g8 (grand prix).

I don't believe there will be a next gen G6 or G8. The G6 will be replaced by the Insignia at B-P-G, probably as a Buick. As far as the G8, I think it will be a one and done deal (like the GTO, Solstice/Sky, and probably Camaro) since GM is rapidly abandoning most of their RWD projects (which I don't particularly agree with, RWD can have a place in the auto market of the future if done right).

I guess I am looking at a transformation for Buick like I perceive the transformation of the Malibu and Taurus. The 2007 Malibu was a rather dorky and bland midsize sedan that almost rendered the model name totally irrelevant in the auto market. The 2008 Malibu radically changed that perception. The 2009 Taurus is a pleasant but extremely bland looking large sedan, but I believe the dynamic looking 2010 Taurus will change the perception of that name as well. The Malibu and Taurus both had reputations as bland rental car queens in their recent past, but the new versions of those cars radically changed (or will be changing in the case of the Taurus) that. I think GM can do the same thing with Buick. It currently has a stodgy image, but it has been saddled with outdated, geriatric products. The Enclave was the first blast to shatter that image (and I do see a lot of them being piloted by a much younger demographic than Buick's traditional age group) and the 2010 LaCrosse (although inappropriately named) will be the followup shot. Once the Insignia and some other next gen Opel products join the lineup (and the current LaCrosse and Lucerne are put out to pasture), the transformation will be complete. I do agree that the current Astra hatchbacks would never fit in Buick's lineup, especially next to the current LaCrosse and Lucerne. The styling direction of the next Astra hatchback does fit in with the Enclave, 2010 LaCrosse, and a Buick version of the Insignia. Buick is still viewed as a premium brand (although somewhat outdated); fresh modern products and a cool advertising campaign could work some wonders for the brand. I realize that this is just my opinion, but I think it's completely feasible.

[MyerShift]

I myself feel that the Aura and New Malibu are closer to being the same car with different styling than the Saab 9-3/previous Vectra are to their North American stablemates.

It's as though GM started with the Vectra (which looked dumpy and dowdy until the facelift);

Continued with the Saab 9-3 (very distinct and unique against the other Epsilons);

Then the North American market saw the previous Malibu (which looked dumpy, awkward, and cheap to my eyes);

Then improvement came with the Pontiac G6 but the interior and powertrain still seemed to be lacking;

Vectra got a facelift and eventually we saw the Saturn Aura but it was a further continuation and refinement of the Epsilon chassis in North America and is rather like a G6 attempting to speak German but couldn't.

Finally, so far, the best looking and highest quality Epsilons have just now come to market with the new Chevrolet Malibu and Vauxhall/Opel/Buick Insignia/Regal.

It's been at least seven years to see these improvements which I feel was far too long.

However, I have nothing but commendation for GM's distinction among the Epsilon cars. Sure, I consider the Malibu and Aura the "sisters" but if one were to park all of the Epsilon cars next to each other, I guarantee that it's basically impossible to distinguish that these cars share basic architecture.

Back to Saturn sinking after going "Euro" it's because it was exceptionally limited and half-assed as we seem to like saying around here versus the effort and marketing that should have gone into it.

If the facelifted Vectra in sedan, wagon, and hatch forms; God knows even the Signum (Vectum? hehe) had been imported to the U.S. and kept the name Vectra, it probably would have done no worse than the Aura from a sales performance aspect but been better to drive being the genuine German product AND had the traditional Saturn wagon. Take an Astra versus a Cobalt. There is an out of this world difference between the two despite sharing very, very basic chassis componentry. Then, even with limited sales, it could have helped to boost Opel by winding down production of the Vectra and sending them to the U.S. while the Insignia was being tooled up. Whether or not the Vectra took could have been determined by marketing and outlets of sale but GM could have figured out Saturn wouldn't have worked a lot sooner. Considering though that most denizens of North America have bitched about the Astra's control layout, I'm sure the Vectra would have fared no better for that.

Powertrains though surely would have been another headache what with many small petrol and diesel four cylinders, manual transmissions, and the 2.8L V6 being the same as in the Saab 9-3 AERO of slightly later vintage.

Plus, we never saw the Corsa. At all. But Ford is bringing the Fiesta Stateside when it wasn't originally planning on doing so. Thanks GM.

The Astra was late and had VERY limited options, features, and powertrain availability. We weren't offered xenon directional headlamps, auxillary jack, the 1.6L turbo, Panoramic Roof, and much more. Compounding the issue of no marketing, and the sedan didn't arrive which would have been very U.S. friendly, no wagon to tempt previous Saturn owners.

Aside from lack of funding and foresight, all of this obviousness makes it all the more indignifying that the great Mr. Robert Lutz can't understand why Saturn failed.

Well Bob, I guess you can't see it because it's partly your fault as well as everyone else's up the clouds of GM's upper ranking management.

Congratulations you guys for running a great and once proud establishment into the ground.

Same goes for the bastards at Daimler-Benz for raping out Chrysler.

For God's sake! Have you heard?! Daimler is STILL BLAMING CHRYSLER FOR THEIR 65% DROP IN PROFIT**. How ignorant can these people be?

Well, I guess as society and everything around us comes crashing down into fiery anarchy we shall see.

**as read in USA Today

*Please don't take these as me spouting facts and absolutes. It's just my opinions based on observations, readings, and to an extent, experiences. I find what has been happening to our passion and our joy to be very stressful, and I need to vent. I appreciate being a member of C&G and find it an enjoyable site with excellent information. Afterall, I'm not claiming the sun is made of liquid gold (although I'm sure all that hydrogen could be valuable) and I am not saying that the Audi A8 is rear-drive with a gear change lever in the headliner.

Edited February 19, 2009 by MyerShift

[PurdueGuy]

Plus, we never saw the Corsa. At all.

Saturn was never meant to get the current gen Corsa (well, it was considered for a very short time before deciding it'd cost too much to retrofit for the US), it was meant to get the next gen, which isn't out yet.

[MyerShift]

Saturn was never meant to get the current gen Corsa (well, it was considered for a very short time before deciding it'd cost too much to retrofit for the US), it was meant to get the next gen, which isn't out yet.

But... Ford wasn't going to have the Fiesta stateside, but they did it.