Opel what?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

DISCLAIMER: Just because I'm grinding an axe about the G8 and how well it is doing doesn't mean I think that GM needs a whole line up of RWD V8 large cars. This is merely an interesting comparison.

cz28

Fleet sales were down 80%. In spite of that, and in spite of the approximate 30% decline in overall retail sales, GM managed to sell almost as many G8s this January as they sold Grand Prixs last January -- 1331 versus 1399. The G6 really felt the fleet decline, as sales fell to 2468 from 13942. Imagine if the Grand Prix were still around -- probably only a few hundred would have sold. Finally, only 1338 Auras were sold -- just 7 more than the G8.

I think the sales charts do a really good job of showing why Saturn, Saab, and Pontiac are on the ropes, as well as showing why GMC is not on the ropes. GMC sold over 19000 trucks -- over five times as many vehicles as Saturn sold.

It's interesting to see what happens when fleet sales drop off a cliff. It shows you the real strength of each division, and it really reinforces GM's divisional plans. I'll bet that the Vibe and G8 are the only Pontiacs that have a decent retail sales volume and explains why, contrary to what some have posted, the G8 is a success.

Not to mention, every G8 sold is profitable. The G8 and Solstice do well because THEY are true to the image of what Pontiac represents to the public. (The Vibe is probably doing well because it's new and competitive... And a Toyota )

I don't really understand why Gm is so surprised about Saturn being down either. I mean, with all of the cut or sell talk, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

POSTED by guionM (who posts here sometimes as well)

On the subject of the G8, how about a bit of trivia>

There were 12,045 G8s produced in 2008.

Of those 6,143 were the GT (V8) models.

There were 5,902 V6 models.

Yes..... 49% of all G8s produced were V6s.

Edited February 10, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[§carlet §wordfish]

Would that I saw more of them than I do Grands Prix.

[Sixty8panther]

The G8 is a rare bird.

A modern, never mind NEW car that I lust after.

[mustang84]

DISCLAIMER: Just because I'm grinding an axe about the G8 and how well it is doing doesn't mean I think that GM needs a whole line up of RWD V8 large cars. This is merely an interesting comparison.

cz28

Not to mention, every G8 sold is profitable. The G8 and Solstice do well because THEY are true to the image of what Pontiac represents to the public. (The Vibe is probably doing well because it's new and competitive... And a Toyota )

I don't really understand why Gm is so surprised about Saturn being down either. I mean, with all of the cut or sell talk, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

POSTED by guionM (who posts here sometimes as well)

But you speak too much sense, FOG!

No, of course that would mean taking a risk and maybe thinking outside the box for a change. Instead, let's rebadge some more Chevrolets like we've been doing for the last 30 years, glue on an arrowhead, and market it as new direction for Pontiac.

[regfootball]

GP was a 5 year old model by then and this is the g8's first year out of the chute. part of why the GP tanked at the end was it was stale.

[black02]

GP was a 5 year old model by then and this is the g8's first year out of the chute. part of why the GP tanked at the end was it was stale.

The GP pretty much went straight to rental fleets even when new in '03. The GXP model had a problem in that the V8 overpowered the front wheels in spite of being limited to the 5.3 and relatively low peak torque. It might have done okay in the snow belt, but you just don't see any in California.

Pontiac needs a car that people will lust after, and the G8 fills that need. The GP was a car that people settled for. I mean, even if you bought the GP GXP, it would be only because you thought you needed FWD winter traction or because GM didn't offer a RWD. If not for snow, who really wants a FWD 5.3 more than a RWD 6.0?

[Robert Hall]

The GP pretty much went straight to rental fleets even when new in '03. The GXP model had a problem in that the V8 overpowered the front wheels in spite of being limited to the 5.3 and relatively low peak torque. It might have done okay in the snow belt, but you just don't see any in California.

Pontiac needs a car that people will lust after, and the G8 fills that need. The GP was a car that people settled for. I mean, even if you bought the GP GXP, it would be only because you thought you needed FWD winter traction or because GM didn't offer a RWD. If not for snow, who really wants a FWD 5.3 more than a RWD 6.0?

Actually saw a dark red Grand Prix GXP in traffic yesterday. What's the point of having a FWD V8 car in Phoenix??

[black02]

Actually saw a dark red Grand Prix GXP in traffic yesterday. What's the point of having a FWD V8 car in Phoenix??

None. Two possibilities:

1. Wanted GM sedan with V8 and no RWD available (STS too $$$).

2. Actually prefers FWD (there's always an exception to the rule)

Edited February 10, 2009 by black02

[Robert Hall]

None. Two possibilities:

1. Wanted GM sedan with V8 and no RWD available (STS too $$$).

2. Actually prefers FWD (there's always an exception to the rule)

Or 3, a snowbird from Ohio or other frozen winter state. But it did have an AZ plate.

[black02]

Or 3, a snowbird from Ohio or other frozen winter state. But it did have an AZ plate.

Yeah. Or maybe from Flagstaff.

If a snowbird, then they get to decide which state to register it in, I guess. If AZ is cheaper than wherever they're from....

[Robert Hall]

Yeah. Or maybe from Flagstaff.

If a snowbird, then they get to decide which state to register it in, I guess. If AZ is cheaper than wherever they're from....

Yeah, lots of snow up in Flagstaff lately. But an 4WD SUV makes more sense up in the mountains. I've kept my Jeep registered in Colorado, though registration is about the same here (% value based) (and only 1 plate). Ohio is still the cheapest I know of (a flat $25/year, IIRC).

[black02]

I drove an Impala SS at one of GM's Ride&Drive events and then I rode in one about a year later (Avis rental car, believe it or not). The car sure sounded the part. But the excessive wheel spin on even moderate throttle input totally ruined it for me. Add in the fact that it was coming from the front, which was just all wrong, aesthetically speaking.

[Robert Hall]

I drove an Impala SS at one of GM's Ride&Drive events and then I rode in one about a year later (Avis rental car, believe it or not). The car sure sounded the part. But the excessive wheel spin on even moderate throttle input totally ruined it for me. Add in the fact that it was coming from the front, which was just all wrong, aesthetically speaking.

Yeah, I just can't get excited about a nose heavy V8 FWD car... great engine, wrong platform.

[black02]

Yeah, lots of snow up in Flagstaff lately. But an 4WD SUV makes more sense up in the mountains. I've kept my Jeep registered in Colorado, though registration is about the same here (% value based) (and only 1 plate). Ohio is still the cheapest I know of (a flat $25/year, IIRC).

1 plate is nice. My Camaro only has one, but the local cops don't seem to mind. I figure it gives them something to write me a ticket for when they're looking for an excuse, which was the case the one time I got a ticket (when a cop with truly awful powers of observation threatened to give me an "obstructing traffic" ticket for yielding to one of his fellow cops with the red and blue light on -- cop claimed not to have seen it). No points and $125 if you don't fix it (who wants to take a drill to his Camaro?).

Lots of cars in CA with just 1 plate. If/when I get a G8, though, I'll get the front plate, just to avoid the hassle.

Edited February 10, 2009 by black02

[Robert Hall]

1 plate is nice. My Camaro only has one, but the local cops don't seem to mind. I figure it gives them something to write me a ticket for when they're looking for an excuse, which was the case the one time I got a ticket (when a cop with truly awful powers of observation threatened to give me an "obstructing traffic" ticket for yielding to one of his fellow cops with the red and blue light on -- cop claimed not to have seen it). No points and $125 if you don't fix it (who wants to take a drill to his Camaro?).

Lots of cars in CA with just 1 plate. If/when I get a G8, though, I'll get the front plate, just to avoid the hassle.

Speaking of plates, the latest state law here is it's now illegal to have the state name covered by a license plate frame, was a primary offense w/ a $135 fine at first. Last week, was reduced to non-primary w/ a $30 fine. So many lazy people leave the cheesy dealer plate frame on.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The GP pretty much went straight to rental fleets even when new in '03. The GXP model had a problem in that the V8 overpowered the front wheels in spite of being limited to the 5.3 and relatively low peak torque. It might have done okay in the snow belt, but you just don't see any in California.

Pontiac needs a car that people will lust after, and the G8 fills that need. The GP was a car that people settled for. I mean, even if you bought the GP GXP, it would be only because you thought you needed FWD winter traction or because GM didn't offer a RWD. If not for snow, who really wants a FWD 5.3 more than a RWD 6.0?

I agree...

And even Californians showed some love for Pontiac recently (The GTO was a huge success in Cali)

*I'm sure someone will come on here and shoot that comment down, because we all know that unless GM (and by extension Pontiac) sells 2XX,000 of and given model, it's an instant failure.*

Oh, and I think NC is still a flat registration fee of $20-25 as well.

Edited February 10, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[buyacargetacheck]

As this Australian blog points out GM expected to sell 30,000 G8s per year but only sold about half that number. Basically, it was GTO Part Deux. How do you call that a success? BTW, that's not to say the G8 isn't a good car - it is. It's just that buyers are apparently turned off by the nameplate for the price. Or maybe it's the bland Australian styling?

http://blogs.drive.com.au/2009/01/america_...ort_blow_t.html

DISCLAIMER: Just because I'm grinding an axe about the G8 and how well it is doing doesn't mean I think that GM needs a whole line up of RWD V8 large cars. This is merely an interesting comparison.

cz28

Not to mention, every G8 sold is profitable. The G8 and Solstice do well because THEY are true to the image of what Pontiac represents to the public. (The Vibe is probably doing well because it's new and competitive... And a Toyota )

I don't really understand why Gm is so surprised about Saturn being down either. I mean, with all of the cut or sell talk, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

POSTED by guionM (who posts here sometimes as well)

[buyacargetacheck]

That's just Lutz talking in his own world. I hardly see any GTOs in LA.

nd even Californians showed some love for Pontiac recently (The GTO was a huge success in Cali)

[daves87rs]

Granted, I've sen a few more G8s out of here....

[AAS]

That's just Lutz talking in his own world. I hardly see any GTOs in LA.

And I see lots... so I guess that's settled.

[gm4life]

FOG you make to much common sense. I have been a strong supporter of a mixed FWD/RWD/AWD line-up as far as cars go. The G8 has won rave reviews by the auto press, including the most biased car rags and also has starting winning rave reviews about the new GXP model. On all accounts except sales the G8 has been a sucess, and speaking of which the GP was suppose to be a VOLUME mainstream car and its design only 4 years olds yet a powerful RWD car that gets worse fuel economy and yet they sold nearly as many G8's in a bad economy. If the economy was good that number would be 3 or 4 times that. Interesting I say you make a great case of the G8 and Solstice two cars that actually are what Pontiac is. The new G6 is not exactly what I think a classic Pontiac is but in this day and age it is a good memeber in the family, it is certainly nice looking thanks the MCE and the new six speed 4 cylinder combo.

Edited February 10, 2009 by gm4life

[BuddyP]

I drove and like the G8, will consider it for our next vehicle.

Anybody think the Aura XR will become a rare classic in the future?

[Drew Dowdell]

As this Australian blog points out GM expected to sell 30,000 G8s per year but only sold about half that number.

Yeah, that is a shame since we're in this booming economy and credit is so easy to get that you can't let your dog wander free for fear it will come home with a mortgage.

oh....

wait....

Sales of GM cars (and many other company's) was down about 50% across the board. The G8 sold half of what was predicted. How is this a challenge to your thought process?

[Robert Hall]

Yeah, that is a shame since we're in this booming economy and credit is so easy to get that you can't let your dog wander free for fear it will come home with a mortgage.

oh....

wait....

Sales of GM cars (and many other company's) was down about 50% across the board. The G8 sold half of what was predicted. How is this a challenge to your thought process?

Yeah, the market timing was all wrong on the G8...if it had been out in '05-06, who knows, it might have been fairly successful.

[daves87rs]

True....it really is hard to pick anything out of sales when they are so out of wack.....

[buyacargetacheck]

Total 2008 auto sales were down 18% from 2007. GM was down 22% overall. That still makes the G8 a loser from a sales expectations standpoint.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...uto-sales_N.htm

Yeah, that is a shame since we're in this booming economy and credit is so easy to get that you can't let your dog wander free for fear it will come home with a mortgage.

oh....

wait....

Sales of GM cars (and many other company's) was down about 50% across the board. The G8 sold half of what was predicted. How is this a challenge to your thought process?

[black02]

Total 2008 auto sales were down 18% from 2007. GM was down 22% overall. That still makes the G8 a loser from a sales expectations standpoint.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-0...uto-sales_N.htm

No. The G8 didn't start trickling into dealers until the end of March. So it really only had 9 months. It also had no incentives for most of 2008. Finally, the meltdown didn't happen until October. Prior to that gas was $4/gallon or more, which greatly affected cars like the G8 with V8s.

Just take a look at the January sales report by model. Whatever the expectations were, GM is quite happy with the G8. At a point in time when they're closing down entire divisions, the fact that they're keeping the G8 indicates to me that it's a success.

[Drew Dowdell]

No. The G8 didn't start trickling into dealers until the end of March. So it really only had 9 months. It also had no incentives for most of 2008. Finally, the meltdown didn't happen until October. Prior to that gas was $4/gallon or more, which greatly affected cars like the G8 with V8s.

Just take a look at the January sales report by model. Whatever the expectations were, GM is quite happy with the G8. At a point in time when they're closing down entire divisions, the fact that they're keeping the G8 indicates to me that it's a success.

The dealers around me didn't get them (or weren't displaying them) till May..... and I was looking for it.

[black02]

The dealers around me didn't get them (or weren't displaying them) till May..... and I was looking for it.

I live about 60 miles from Benicia, which was the port of entry.

[regfootball]

The GP pretty much went straight to rental fleets even when new in '03. The GXP model had a problem in that the V8 overpowered the front wheels in spite of being limited to the 5.3 and relatively low peak torque. It might have done okay in the snow belt, but you just don't see any in California.

Pontiac needs a car that people will lust after, and the G8 fills that need. The GP was a car that people settled for. I mean, even if you bought the GP GXP, it would be only because you thought you needed FWD winter traction or because GM didn't offer a RWD. If not for snow, who really wants a FWD 5.3 more than a RWD 6.0?

honestly, I don't dispute what you are saying, but you also just stated a huge reason why FWD became the norm in the first place.

so a) a large part of the country lives in the snow areas and wants to use their car they are paying thousands for every day instead of garaging it for 4 months in the winter

b) the G8 apparently won't become a volume seller like the Bonnevilles and Grand Prixs were even 7,8, 10 years ago.

Edited February 11, 2009 by regfootball

[regfootball]

g8 sales would probably double here in the US (or more) if AWD were available as an option, BTW.

[regfootball]

None. Two possibilities:

1. Wanted GM sedan with V8 and no RWD available (STS too $$$).

2. Actually prefers FWD (there's always an exception to the rule)

when i owned my 95 tbird and my 89 SHO concurrently, i actually came to much prefer the SHO. It rode and handled better, and had better balance. I know the Tbird was no 3 series, but the FWD SHO felt more trusty to drive. There are lots of good FWD cars out there that feel good to drive as well, and so that's why so many folks are just fine with a good FWD car. It doesn't have to be a 3 series, it just has to be better than a typical toyota.

For reference, I have driven the GTO, was not blown away. The G8 v8 is very good. I enjoyed that car. The v6 G8 needs powertrain refinement and is not as enjoyable.

BTW, a G8 GXP manual is one of my very most wanted cars. If i had way excess coin, i would be owning one.

Edited February 11, 2009 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I drove an Impala SS at one of GM's Ride&Drive events and then I rode in one about a year later (Avis rental car, believe it or not). The car sure sounded the part. But the excessive wheel spin on even moderate throttle input totally ruined it for me. Add in the fact that it was coming from the front, which was just all wrong, aesthetically speaking.

Impala SS has crap for suspension and the 4 speed tranny is junk. Drive the Impala SS and then an Aura XR with the paddle shifters back to back. The Aura XR is much more fun. I don't think the small block is as much of the brick people think it is. The v8 OHV block is alum i think and its not much heavier than the HF 3.6.....but its more than likely the archaic W body and $h! suspension that makes it such a terrible drive.

Look at what GM did with the Cobalt. They didn't put near the investment in chassis into the Impala SS.

[gm4life]

Impala SS has crap for suspension and the 4 speed tranny is junk. Drive the Impala SS and then an Aura XR with the paddle shifters back to back. The Aura XR is much more fun. I don't think the small block is as much of the brick people think it is. The v8 OHV block is alum i think and its not much heavier than the HF 3.6.....but its more than likely the archaic W body and $h! suspension that makes it such a terrible drive.

Look at what GM did with the Cobalt. They didn't put near the investment in chassis into the Impala SS.

True if they did put that kind of money into the W-Impala SS you would be suprised what they could do. Just like all the car rags that like the new Cobalt SS Turbo.

Considering the economy and how hard it was to get G8's at the start of production I consider it a sucess and I do believe GM is very happy with the G8. It is a great PONTIAC.

[black02]

honestly, I don't dispute what you are saying, but you also just stated a huge reason why FWD became the norm in the first place.

so a) a large part of the country lives in the snow areas and wants to use their car they are paying thousands for every day instead of garaging it for 4 months in the winter

b) the G8 apparently won't become a volume seller like the Bonnevilles and Grand Prixs were even 7,8, 10 years ago.

Holden could not supply enough for that.

We do know that volume sellers will be marketed as Chevrolets. 10 years ago, if you wanted a volume-priced GM sedan, you could go to any of Pontiac, Buick, Olds, or Chevy and buy the one that had the best styling, best deal, or best dealer. In a few years, you'll have to go to Chevrolet. Buick will have more luxury and a higher price. Cadillac will be ... well, who knows ... either a Buick clone or sporty luxury, depending on whether it goes EPII or Alpha.

I don't think I buy that a large part of the country has to park a RWD car for 4 months, but I buy that there are those who think that's the case. The thing is, the country is large enough, so that the people who aren't worried about RWD in snow (either because they don't have snow or they aren't afraid of RWD in snow) make up a large enough population that it's worth marketing to.

[vonVeezelsnider]

2. Actually prefers FWD (there's always an exception to the rule)

The only way I'd be buying a FWD Car with a V8 would be if it was a G-Body DTS.

[SAmadei]

honestly, I don't dispute what you are saying, but you also just stated a huge reason why FWD became the norm in the first place.

so a) a large part of the country lives in the snow areas and wants to use their car they are paying thousands for every day instead of garaging it for 4 months in the winter

I don't buy the FWD is better in the snow argument, and feel the American public has been duped into this myth. Sure, the added weight over the drive wheels helps you get going, but FWD cars suffer from a worse problem in the snow... the tendency to lose control in a slick turn. This is caused by getting off the accelerator too much, causing the drive wheels to engine brake... and physics dictates that the rear wheels, with less resistance, want to become the front wheels. I'd rather stay stuck by the side of the road than to have the car end up upside down in a ditch at the first turn.

I've driven plenty of non traction control RWD cars with worn out suspension and tires in the snow without a problem... aside from having to dodge all the stuck SUVs and FWD appliances.

The manufactures' sold the public on this because FWD allowed some ease in building the car in a modular fashion, saving costs and the elimination of a small amount of driveshaft/rear end weight. Of course, this compact packaging makes it harder to repair FWD cars... costing you more in the end.

Nowadays, most RWD cars have good weight balance and traction control, so the idea that a FWD car is needed in the snow is BS.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Holden could not supply enough for that.

We do know that volume sellers will be marketed as Chevrolets. 10 years ago, if you wanted a volume-priced GM sedan, you could go to any of Pontiac, Buick, Olds, or Chevy and buy the one that had the best styling, best deal, or best dealer. In a few years, you'll have to go to Chevrolet. Buick will have more luxury and a higher price. Cadillac will be ... well, who knows ... either a Buick clone or sporty luxury, depending on whether it goes EPII or Alpha.

I don't think I buy that a large part of the country has to park a RWD car for 4 months, but I buy that there are those who think that's the case. The thing is, the country is large enough, so that the people who aren't worried about RWD in snow (either because they don't have snow or they aren't afraid of RWD in snow) make up a large enough population that it's worth marketing to.

Exactly. Why should I suffer and not have any RWD cars available to me, when I live in AZ and will never see snow unless I drive up in the mountains? I'm guessing there are more people moving away from the snow to warmer areas anyway.

[Robert Hall]

Exactly. Why should I suffer and not have any RWD cars available to me, when I live in AZ and will never see snow unless I drive up in the mountains? I'm guessing there are more people moving away from the snow to warmer areas anyway.

Yeah, I'm in AZ now, but I lived for years in snowy states (Ohio, Michigan, Colorado). I didn't have FWD there...my solution was a 4wd SUV (Jeep) for a practical, capable daily driver, RWD cars for fun. And I had all RWD prior to 1994. I would never choose FWD.

Edited February 11, 2009 by moltar

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Yeah, I'm in AZ now, but I lived for years in snowy states (Ohio, Michigan, Colorado). I didn't have FWD there...my solution was a 4wd SUV (Jeep) for a practical, capable daily driver, RWD cars for fun. And I had all RWD prior to 1994. I would never choose FWD.

But rememeber, we're not allowed to own SUVs anymore... That's blasphemy!

[Robert Hall]

But rememeber, we're not allowed to own SUVs anymore... That's blasphemy!

My Jeep is pretty small though, only 4500lbs or so. It's ok.

[regfootball]

sales numbers prove that rwd is shunned in bad climate states when other options are available. we don't need to go through this again.

[CaddyXLR-V]

sales numbers prove that rwd is shunned in bad climate states when other options are available. we don't need to go through this again.

Still doesn't change the fact that more and more people are moving to warmer areas. Just look at the population growth of AZ, NV, and CA over the past 10 years. Im sure CA, TX, and FL alone make up enough population to make it worthwhile to sell RWD cars.

[regfootball]

Still doesn't change the fact that more and more people are moving to warmer areas. Just look at the population growth of AZ, NV, and CA over the past 10 years. Im sure CA, TX, and FL alone make up enough population to make it worthwhile to sell RWD cars.

i don't dispute that. but even with people moving to warmer areas, its not like everything north of mason dixon will be empty NEXT YEAR....any manufacturer that wants to get some sales volume out of their lineups will want to be able to have them be successful in all areas of the country. so if say 1/3 of the country has trouble unloading rwd cars, it might be deterrent enough to get rid of them from their lineups, especially when 90% of the driving population doesn't care which wheels are driving, or know, or specifically prefer fwd.

Lets use the Impala as an example. It was supposed to go Zeta, but wisely GM realized it would be market murder to put IMpala on a RWD only chassis. It takes their volume car and makes it useless in the market as a volume seller / 50 state car.

Zeta's biggest downfall is no AWD available.

Any platform needs to be used on several models. A RWD only platform cannot be used on crossovers or mainstream family cars because the market has proved over and over that you can offer the public more for your development dollar by a more flexible platform.

Even Cadillac was wise enough to see their lunch being eaten and put the STS and CTS on an AWD capable program.

Edited February 12, 2009 by regfootball