I need sources of truth, and some shutup juice...

[KaliRover]

Is there anything wrong with this guy’s statements? It's this guy I'm talking to. I'm not asking you all to resolve this arguement, but rather, to asist me to the right sources that I may better counter in my defense for GM. Started off talking about Saturn's... lol. Anyways...

Here was what I said in a Response to someone who asked how Toyota's hybrid campaign have lied:
dubbing the Highlander a Hybrid because it get's one more mpg over the regular Highlander and then using the name hybrid to market itself as a Green Friendly brand... as well as using false epa rating's to market it's Prius really add's up...
(I may have been wrong with the whole Highlander thing.)


Here was what he said:





Just a big bowl of Wrong there. Straight off of Toyota's website.

Highlander V6 2wd - 19/25
Highlander hybrid V6 2wd - 33/28

Highlander V6 4wd - 18/24
Highlander hybrid V6 4wd 31/27

13-14 more mpg in the city and 3 more mpg on the highway (so perhaps a combined city/hwy 8mpg improvement, maybe even an 8.3mpg improvement...), anyone who knows anything about "full hybrids" will know why theres a big gain in city milage and a little gain in highway milage (or the article below will help explain part of it to you).

December's Car & Driver issue has a good editorial on hybrids by Patrick Bedard, heres the link...

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...rticle_id=10260

The other knock on hybrids is that they don't get the fuel economy promised by the EPA numbers. Oh, yes, they do, if you drive them as the government drives them on the standard test. Of course, I drove my own routes at my own speeds during my week in a hybrid Lexus RX400h. About half was on freeways, sometimes at speeds above 80; at least 75 miles were in rain. I measured 25.3 mpg over 468 miles. Maybe that doesn't sound miraculous, but when we tested a conventional RX330 (C/D, July 2003), the C/D-observed fuel economy was 17 mpg.

In fact, neither Lexus matched its EPA rating in our hands. But the hybrid outperformed the conventional version by 8 mpg.

RX330 4wd is rated at 18/24 and delivered 17mpg in their test, the RX400h is rated at 31/27 and delivered 25.3mpg in their test. The hybrid delivered 8.3mpg more than the non-hybrid version of the same vehical. 8.3 is 48.8% of 17, the hybrid improved the mpg by 48.8%. I don't care who you are, that's a significant improvement....far from "one more mpg over the non-hybrid."

As for false EPA ratings, nope...try again. They're the same EPA ratings that every other car uses. As mentioned in the above C&D article...if you don't get the EPA mpg figures in a hybrid vehicle then you're not going to get the EPA mpg figures in a non-hybrid vehicle either. As in, if you drive a Prius at 75mph on the highway you won't see 52mpg, and if you drive a Suburban on the highway at 75mph you won't see 19mpg like the EPA says either. Why? Because the EPA doesn't "drive" 75mph during their highway milage testing, the fastest they go is 60mph. If you want to throw a pissy fit over the EPA mpg figures, direct it at the EPA, not at manufacturers of hybrids.

Moving up/redefining....yeah they move their products upscale, they don't just keep the same product and "redefine" it by marking up the price and telling people it's not a higher priced car.





eh, just some sources on Hybrid tech, the cost of maintaining one, whether it's worth the investment, and Toyota's Hybrid's and their relation to all of the above lol. Oh, and an opinion if you must/want, for or against his arguement. Thanks and take care.

[KaliRover]

oh, and I'll keep my mouth shut the next time I come across an issue that I'm not totally informed on.

[pow]

Hybrids undoubtedly help reduce fuel consumption, but it's debatable whether or not buying one is economically feasible. Cars are not rational decisions; people buy Priuses because they like them. Or, as from Bedard's column, "If you want to save money on your next car, here's my advice: Skip the onboard nav option. You'll never save enough in maps and 50-cent phone calls to get your initial cost back."

[Sixty8panther]

The fact is Toyotas ARE over rated and in many instances do not live up to their Hype. The Prius fell short by quite a bit in terms of real world Fuel Economy.

[nyscene911]

Why are you arguing over on the myspace forums anyway? You should've known making a topic about how Saturn would be the death of imports would get you flamed.

[sciguy_0504]

I thought we've addressed this fuel economy thing 1,000,000 times by now and people are still complaining about the Prius not getting the EPA fuel economy estimates. :angry:

[Sixty8panther]

I thought we've addressed this fuel economy thing 1,000,000 times by now and people are still complaining about the Prius not getting the EPA fuel economy estimates. :angry:

[post="40736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

To be honest bud, maybe I missed it as I just scanned several of these Prius/fuel economy/anti-Toyota threads.

All I know is in the real world the car has to be traveling down hill for 30 minutes straight at 55mph to get 50mpg and yet that's exactly what was promissed by Toyota for every day driving.

A beat up 1995 Tercel 5-speed for $3,000 is a better choice for obtaining excellent fuel economy and not breaking the bank than a $25,000 Prius. Not to mention the $4000 batteries that will make resale on the Prius drop like an Anvil once they get anywhere close to 100,000K and all the possible gremlins still to be worked out from this technology.

I've been stuck on the side of the road a couple times in the past few years... bad water pump on a 185K mile Cadillac and blown transmisson on my '68 Camaro because I ran it bone dry like a retard and other such annoying stuff but if I bought a $25,000 Prius and after all the hype it left me stranded I'd be writting some angry letters to Toyota ASAP.

[the_yellow_dart]

I'd like to see more truth in all these EPA estimates. From GMCanada's website: manual: 9.5 / 6.1 / 8.0 L/100km my actual findings: highway about 5.7 to 6.0 city about 7.5 to 9.0 depending on traffic worst trip was 10.5, in VERY bad traffic, sitting there for 5 minutes at a time. If I can get 10.5 L/100km in that kind of terrible mess, why can't the EPA get better than 9.5 L/100km in their test??

[Hudson]

All I know is in the real world the car has to be traveling down hill for 30 minutes straight at 55mph to get 50mpg and yet that's exactly what was promissed by Toyota for every day driving.

The hybrid issue is NOT all hype. Toyota hybrid models do in fact get much better gas mileage than non-hybrid models...and better than their competition. You can get extremes in gas mileage in a hybrid without driving "down hill for 30 minutes straight," but you do have to change the typical lead-footed driving pattern most car enthusiasts have. And magazines don't do this.

As for Toyota making promises "for every day driving," note one place where they said that you could get "50mpg" (or anything like that) in every day driving.

In actuality, car companies can ONLY advertise EPA estimates in advertising in the US. They cannot say "in our testing, our car gets 30 mpg." And EPA estimates are NOT altered by the car companies...they are based on a strict test in a given routine. If the Prius excels at this, that's the government's problem...not Toyota's. And I don't recall any of Toyota's TV ads for hybrids actually showing these estimates...they just say that these vehicles are good for the environment, which they are by polluting less and using less gas.

[KaliRover]

Why are you arguing over on the myspace forums anyway?  You should've known making a topic about how Saturn would be the death of imports would get you flamed.

[post="40704"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, it was in a domestic forum... there are other forums for people who like or want to talk about imports on there. It wasn't like I went in there not knowing that there wouldn't be some Import fan's or Domestic critics in there. I was just promoting Saturn's new image on a Domestic forum, and I stated already that the name was to draw attention on there.

But, I don't know that much about Hybrids, or how they work. All I know from the BlueWaterNetwork website, GMinsidenews, Blueovalforums, Cheersandgears, TheCarConnection, and some other web sites regarding Toyota’s Hybrid campaign is that Toyota promoted an image that it did not live up to, with them lobbying for the California Emissions law to be lowered, I think, and for marketing figures that where overly inflated and not realistic for the daily commute, I mean, sure, it might get 60 mpg at peak performance if the conditions where right. That was what I was going on.

I do not subscribe to C/D, nor do I read it unless I’m at WinCo or at the Airport, and I only find out about this kind of stuff by reading AutoDeadline, BlueovalForums, DodgeForums, TheCarConnection, Autoweek, DetNews, Media.Ford.Com, and Gminsidenews, but I usually skip Hybrid articles because they don’t come across as something interesting. Although I will be taking a different approach when I come across these sort of issues that are vital for today’s enthusiast, the “Must haves” for those who followup closely on car’s. 2 year’s running lol.


And there's my rant for the day haha.

[KaliRover]

although I was hoping for more sources, I really appreciate the insight and opinions, take care.

[Hudson]

[color=green]...regarding Toyota’s Hybrid campaign is that Toyota promoted an image that it did not live up to, with them lobbying for the California Emissions law to be lowered, I think, and for marketing figures that where overly inflated and not realistic for the daily commute, I mean, sure, it might get 60 mpg at peak performance if the conditions where right. That was what I was going on.

I don't understand what Toyota "did not live up to" or any "figures that were overly inflated." All fuel economy numbers used in advertising are the only numbers they're ALLOWED to use. Nothing's been changed by Toyota.

[The O.C.]

Hybrids undoubtedly help reduce fuel consumption, but it's debatable whether or not buying one is economically feasible. Cars are not rational decisions; people buy Priuses because they like them. Or, as from Bedard's column, "If you want to save money on your next car, here's my advice: Skip the onboard nav option. You'll never save enough in maps and 50-cent phone calls to get your initial cost back."

[post="40669"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

First of all, I'm assuming that most hybrids are probably leased.....that takes long-term maintenance costs and battery replacement costs out of the equation for the consumer that leased it.

Additionally, a lease payment is going to lessen the impact of the increased MSRP over a comparable non-hybrid version.

A hybrid may not achieve the EPA ratings in realistic driving, but they seem to definitely improve upon the conventional-powered version (say Prius to Camry....or Highlander Hybrid versus regular Highlander.....or Accord Hybrid versus EX V6.)

In some cases, the consumer is also getting an increase in performance (Accord, Highlander, RX Hybrid.)

Some people (not me...) probably like the unique style of the Prius....whether it's a hybrid or not....

So, considering all of the above, I think for many people a hybrid IS a justifyable decision.

[tmp]

You only get those numbers in a hybrid if you never have to use the AC or the defroster. Use of either one makes sure that the engine never shuts off, killing off a lot of the fuel savings. Plus, the jury is still out on real world battery life and how it will affect the useable life of the car. Toyota claims battery life of 150k miles, but then, they also claim that gas mileage as well. With the high cost of replacement batteries, this will undoubtedly mean cars ending up on the scrap heap sooner than their gasoline-only counterparts (Yes, I know Toyota is going to recycle the batteries- are the going to recycle the whole car?)

[Hudson]

Plus, the jury is still out on real world battery life and how it will affect the useable life of the car.  Toyota claims battery life of 150k miles, but then, they also claim that gas mileage as well.

Battery life is guarranteed for eight years. Simple statistical analysis would imply that the average battery life in a Prius would far exceed that.

And Toyota "claims" EPA estimates! These are the only numbers Toyota's even ALLOWED to advertise...and when was the last Prius (or Highlander Hybrid) advertisement you saw that actually used the numbers? Toyota's not making up gas mileage numbers.