Ford Says No to E-REV’s and Explains Why

[GXT]

Perhaps since Ford said this and not Toyota we can deal with the content rather than the messenger:

http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/06/exclusive-fo...d-explains-why/

Combine this with Ford's earlier statement that a battery about the size of the Volt's would cost ~$20K and you can see why the Volt was less "technological leap" and more baby step off the side of a bridge. That's why no one was seriously following. But it is unfortunate that so many were compelled by the PR to "make pretend". I've posted elsewhere how this distraction could has cost the US many billions of gallons of fuel by 2015... and that is if the Volt actually even delivers what has been claimed!

GM, why don't you just build the RIGHT product rather than the gimmick? There must be treatment options for Prius Envy.

[Drew Dowdell]

You know what is really cool? In 1993 I could buy a full tower 486DX2/66 with 4x CD drive and a massive 8 meg of ram and a roomy 120 meg hard drive for about $2,000

In 2009, I can buy a dual core processor tower with 4 gig of ram and 500 gig hard drive and a DVD-RW burner for about $399

It would have been a shame if, in 1994, Intel didn't develop the Pentium line.

[saturnd00d]

I completely agree with you Oldsmoboi, if no one develops it, it can never be improved upon. Evoluntion can't take it's course.

[PurdueGuy]

Perhaps since Ford said this and not Toyota we can deal with the content rather than the messenger:

http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/06/exclusive-fo...d-explains-why/

Combine this with Ford's earlier statement that a battery about the size of the Volt's would cost ~$20K and you can see why the Volt was less "technological leap" and more baby step off the side of a bridge. That's why no one was seriously following. But it is unfortunate that so many were compelled by the PR to "make pretend". I've posted elsewhere how this distraction could has cost the US many billions of gallons of fuel by 2015... and that is if the Volt actually even delivers what has been claimed!

GM, why don't you just build the RIGHT product rather than the gimmick? There must be treatment options for Prius Envy.

I find it funny that you start by bemoaning anti-Toyota views, then proceed with your cynicism about GM that goes beyond reason. Do you not get that the Prius is similarly a gimmick as the Volt is, albeit a less expensive one? A current gen prius did not make economic sense when it came out, it made a *little* economic sense when gas prices peaked, and now it's back to not making sense. And that's the THIRD generation of Prius. I bet the first generation (japan only) had people wondering what in the world Toyota was thinking, too.

[GXT]

You know what is really cool? In 1993 I could buy a full tower 486DX2/66 with 4x CD drive and a massive 8 meg of ram and a roomy 120 meg hard drive for about $2,000

In 2009, I can buy a dual core processor tower with 4 gig of ram and 500 gig hard drive and a DVD-RW burner for about $399

It would have been a shame if, in 1994, Intel didn't develop the Pentium line.

Yeah, but then came the P4, and that was a disaster. Mostly PR with a lack of substance. Luckily it was replaced by Core. I guess not all "technological leaps" are created equal.

[Drew Dowdell]

You really have a beef with the Volt and you took my analogy completely wrong.

The cost of the batteries will come down with time. Those batteries that might cost $20,000 today would have cost $40,000 five years ago and will cost $10,000 or less five years from now.

Just because the batteries cost a lot doesn't mean it's not a leap in terms of technology. How often do we see a change in the primary motive power of an automobile?

The Volt is just version 1.0 in the line of future electric vehicles.

The Pruis is version 0.5 because it still uses an ICE as it's primary motivator.

[deftonesfan867]

Perhaps since Ford said this and not Toyota we can deal with the content rather than the messenger:

http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/06/exclusive-fo...d-explains-why/

Combine this with Ford's earlier statement that a battery about the size of the Volt's would cost ~$20K and you can see why the Volt was less "technological leap" and more baby step off the side of a bridge. That's why no one was seriously following. But it is unfortunate that so many were compelled by the PR to "make pretend". I've posted elsewhere how this distraction could has cost the US many billions of gallons of fuel by 2015... and that is if the Volt actually even delivers what has been claimed!

GM, why don't you just build the RIGHT product rather than the gimmick? There must be treatment options for Prius Envy.

[Intrepidation]

He's just sore because when the concept first came out he proclaimed GM would never build it. GM is building it, so instead of eating crow he's got to put it down every chance he gets to make himself feel better.

[GXT]

I find it funny that you start by bemoaning anti-Toyota views, then proceed with your cynicism about GM that goes beyond reason. Do you not get that the Prius is similarly a gimmick as the Volt is, albeit a less expensive one? A current gen prius did not make economic sense when it came out, it made a *little* economic sense when gas prices peaked, and now it's back to not making sense. And that's the THIRD generation of Prius. I bet the first generation (japan only) had people wondering what in the world Toyota was thinking, too.

I don't think the Volt has to make "economic sense", but it should make sense on some level. When you really consider the Volt, you have to ask "what sense does it make?".

[Intrepidation]

It will make a lot of sense when gas starts going up again and the price of the batteries go down.

[GXT]

You really have a beef with the Volt and you took my analogy completely wrong.

The cost of the batteries will come down with time. Those batteries that might cost $20,000 today would have cost $40,000 five years ago and will cost $10,000 or less five years from now.

Just because the batteries cost a lot doesn't mean it's not a leap in terms of technology. How often do we see a change in the primary motive power of an automobile?

The Volt is just version 1.0 in the line of future electric vehicles.

The Pruis is version 0.5 because it still uses an ICE as it's primary motivator.

I think I took your analogy correctly, just not in the way you intended.

Batteries will come down in cost, but that still doesn't mean that the Volt is the right use for them. The Volt will be the P4 of electric cars. More flash than substance. Bested by cars like the Insight and the Prius in terms of economic sense, fuel savings, volume, profitability, etc. There probably will be a small moment in time where it will make sense and then the all-electric car will make it obsolete.

[pow]

Of course battery technology will improve over time, but an E-REV like the Volt isn't the most efficient use of 16 KWh. Because the batteries can't charge quickly enough, regardless of how powerful the generator is, half the battery serves as backup for the "extended-range" mode, leaving only half the capacity for EV-only propulsion.

The advantages of an E-REV is the potential for 40 miles (city) of EV-only propulsion at infinite MPG.

A plug-in hybrid like the Escape can achieve 40 miles of "just" 150 MPG, but it can use a far smaller, lighter, and cheaper battery. Past the first 40 miles, it will get better fuel economy than an E-REV, because it won't carry as much dead weight in unused battery capacity.

If you gave the Escape Hybrid plug-in the same battery as the Volt's, you'd get far more than 40 miles of EV range, as you will using *all* of the battery's range. Once the battery is depleted, its gasoline engine can directly power the wheels.

Edited February 9, 2009 by empowah

[GXT]

He's just sore because when the concept first came out he proclaimed GM would never build it. GM is building it, so instead of eating crow he's got to put it down every chance he gets to make himself feel better.

I claimed the drivetrain didn't exist, and that turned out to be true (we now know it was a couple of car batteries and a detergent container under the hood). I believe I claimed that GM COULDN'T build it, and that is turning out to be true if for no other reason than even GM admits they won't hit their sub $30K price (I believe we've been over this before that attaching a battery to an electric motor isn't the challenge. The challenge is getting the range for the cost.). But most importantly I thought they WOULDN'T build it because it is such a bad idea. Leave it to GM...

Still, I haven't seen a production one yet. With the state of the company, Bob stepping down, and GM resorting to begging communities to set up special infrastructure the future for the Volt looks bleak.

I promised everyone I would stick around and eat crow if the time came. In the meantime I am making my thoughts known so that when GM tells you the Volt was stupid (in PR speak of course) you can apologize profusely to me and wonder how you could have been so blind as to have missed the obvious.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think I took your analogy correctly, just not in the way you intended.

Batteries will come down in cost, but that still doesn't mean that the Volt is the right use for them. The Volt will be the P4 of electric cars. More flash than substance. Bested by cars like the Insight and the Prius in terms of economic sense, fuel savings, volume, profitability, etc. There probably will be a small moment in time where it will make sense and then the all-electric car will make it obsolete.

Wouldn't that make the Volt a Mac and the Pruis/Insight a PC?

[GXT]

Wouldn't that make the Volt a Mac and the Pruis/Insight a PC?

According to the Volt's dash it must be an Apple product.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Of course battery technology will improve over time, but an E-REV like the Volt isn't the most efficient use of 16 KWh. Because the batteries can't charge quickly enough, regardless of how powerful the generator is, half the battery serves as backup for the "extended-range" mode, leaving only half the capacity for EV-only propulsion.

The advantages of an E-REV is the potential for 40 miles (city) of EV-only propulsion at infinite MPG.

A plug-in hybrid like the Escape can achieve 40 miles of "just" 150 MPG, but it can use a far smaller, lighter, and cheaper battery. Past the first 40 miles, it will get better fuel economy than an E-REV, because it won't carry as much dead weight in unused battery capacity.

If you gave the Escape Hybrid plug-in the same battery as the Volt's, you'd get far more than 40 miles of EV range, as you will using *all* of the battery's range. Once the battery is depleted, its gasoline engine can directly power the wheels.

What would be easier, switching the Volt's gas engine to a fuel cell, or the Escapes? I think that is the point that is trying to be made here.

[pow]

What would be easier, switching the Volt's gas engine to a fuel cell, or the Escapes? I think that is the point that is trying to be made here.

Switching to a fuel cell won't address the inefficiency of an E-REV; it just makes the generator emission-free.

Until the battery can be charged as quickly as it is depleted - which is tricky under acceleration or while passing - there will always be underutilized battery capacity. With a plug-in hybrid, this is not a problem, as the engine can directly power the wheels.

[GXT]

Of course battery technology will improve over time, but an E-REV like the Volt isn't the most efficient use of 16 KWh. Because the batteries can't charge quickly enough, regardless of how powerful the generator is, half the battery serves as backup for the "extended-range" mode, leaving only half the capacity for EV-only propulsion.

The need to hold battery in reserve for high-demand driving is indeed a limitation of the Volt design. But some of that 50% of the battery must be left unused to ensure battery longevity (I'm not sure what %). That would be needed for any vehicle that used that battery.

But yes, you can make 20+ Insight batteries for the capacity of one Volt battery. And in many use cases a single Insight will give better fuel economy than the Volt (e.g. highway, after 40 miles of city, etc.). Plus they can be sold profitably, in volume, years sooner, and for apparently 1/2 the price.

Plus the Volt has a very limited sweet spot (less sour spot?). Drive much more or much less than 40 miles and you are hauling around a bunch of useless battery. Hybrids with smaller batteries suffer this issue to a much smaller extent.

As I've said before, GM picked the range to hit 80% of consumer's needs, but apparently they picked the range in a virtual vacuum as it has result in a car that will have VERY limited market penetration.

[GXT]

Switching to a fuel cell won't address the inefficiency of an E-REV; it just makes the generator emission-free.

Until the battery can be charged as quickly as it is depleted - which is tricky under acceleration or while passing - there will always be underutilized battery capacity. With a plug-in hybrid, this is not a problem, as the engine can directly power the wheels.

Why are you assuming that the power has to go to the batteries? Power the electric motor directly.

Edited February 9, 2009 by GXT

[regfootball]

ford feels they have a better shot of building on the technology they have already spent and paid for. its not a bad solution, and maybe they just want to see acceptance of the public to the e-rev. in the meantime, the fusion hybrid is the best, and the plug in portion is building on what they have already engineered and spent resources on.

[GXT]

ford feels they have a better shot of building on the technology they have already spent and paid for. its not a bad solution, and maybe they just want to see acceptance of the public to the e-rev. in the meantime, the fusion hybrid is the best, and the plug in portion is building on what they have already engineered and spent resources on.

It is a very good solution.

No doubt Ford is building on their existing technology. But that doesn't mean if they were starting from scratch they would do it any differently.