Automotive News: GM to restructure European sales, marketing

[Chazman]

Speaking of Sigma, didn't FIAT Buy the rights to use Cadillac’s Sigma Platform last Feb? Wasn't Alfa Romeo re-engineering almost all of its models from front wheel to rear wheel-drive (RWD). Since the FIAT conglomerate had practically no usable RWD platforms. Wasn't Alfa about to ink a deal with GM to use The General's Sigma platform, currently underpinning the Cadillac CTS, SRX and STS. Alfa's plan was to use Sigma for its 169 executive sedan, the 159 small sedan, the Alfa Spider convertible, the Brera Coupe and for a new generation of smaller Maseratis, as I recall.

I thought Fiat had the rights to use it ever since the Fiat-GM alliance. Anyway, Fiat will probably have access to Chrysler's LY/LX architecture now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Is that still on?

Remember we are all about what makes sense in these days of budget constraints ...

[Oracle of Delphi]

I thought Fiat had the rights to use it ever since the Fiat-GM alliance. Anyway, Fiat will probably have access to Chrysler's LY/LX architecture now.

Good luck to Fiat on that, Chrysler seems to be the albatross around the neck of anyone they have dealings with ...

[Chazman]

Good luck to Fiat on that, Chrysler seems to be the albatross around the neck of anyone they have dealings with ...

Well, although I think it's a looooooooooooooooooong shot, if the planets align perfectly, it might be one last chance for Chrysler. That, plus I'd like to see Alfa Romeo enter the US market again. I grew up on the northwest side of Chicago, in a very Italian neighborhood. Alfa's were as common as Malibus there.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, although I think it's a looooooooooooooooooong shot, if the planets align perfectly, it might be one last chance for Chrysler. That, plus I'd like to see Alfa Romeo enter the US market again. I grew up on the northwest side of Chicago, in a very Italian neighborhood. Alfa's were as common as Malibus there.

So I take it you're Italian from that comment, perhaps not though. I am half Italian, my father thought I wasn't Italian enough, so when we moved to Plano, TX from Germany, I attended an Italian Catholic grade school there. I'm not a big fan of Italian autos, the good ones always seemed expensive and the cheap ones were constantly breaking down. To me Italian and British cars are on par with each other as far as reliability goes, but to each their own ...

[Chazman]

So I take it you're Italian from that comment, perhaps not though. I am half Italian, my father thought I wasn't Italian enough, so when we moved to Plano, TX from Germany, I attended an Italian Catholic grade school there. I'm not a big fan of Italian autos, the good ones always seemed expensive and the cheap ones were constantly breaking down. To me Italian and British cars are on par with each other as far as reliability goes, but to each their own ...

Actually, I'm Greek. Greeks seems to fit in perfectly with Italians and visa versa. My wife is Italian though.

I've always liked the joke:

"What do you call an Italian who marries a Greek?

A social climber."

I think it's hilarious - but my wife is not at all amused.

I've always wanted an Alfa GTV6 or Giulia Super, but the maintanence required scares me away.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Chazman

[Z-06]

Is the Sigma platform going to be updated significantly sometimes soon?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Actually, I'm Greek. Greeks seems to fit in perfectly with Italians and visa versa. My wife is Italian though.

I've always liked the joke:

"What do you call an Italian who marries a Greek?

A social climber."

I think it's hilarious - but my wife is not at all amused.

I've always wanted an Alfa GTV6 or Giulia Super, but the maintanence required scares me away.

During the 2004 Olympic games in Athens, the Greek woman (her name escapes me now) who was in charge of the games, always referred to the Italians and Greeks as "Same Face, Same Race".

[Oracle of Delphi]

Is the Sigma platform going to be updated significantly sometimes soon?

Read Up.

[Chazman]

During the 2004 Olympic games in Athens, the Greek woman (her name escapes me now) who was in charge of the games, always referred to the Italians and Greeks as "Same Face, Same Race".

There is a popular Greek expression, (which ironically is in Italian): " Una fatsa, una ratsa".

[enzl]

The Catera chassis was not a purely designed German chassis, as Cadillac itself made major changes to it to give it that nice floaty feeling that their customers at that time desired. Had Cadillac left the chassis as is, or tuned up a notch or two it to match BMW or MB sport suspension that Europeans were use to and given it a decent gas and diesel engine, the Catera name might have still been around today instead of the name CTS.

No offense, but the Catera was/is an unreliable wreck. Engines that routinely failed by 60k and build quality questions doomed the Catera.

Mix in un-Caddy style and a dealer body who had no idea how to sell the thing and you've got a recipe for the disaster that Catera was...unmitigated fail on the part of GM with another euro-transplant.

My boss will hold/sell anything---and Cateras that come in on trade go right out to auction.

I know you work for GME and all....but the Catera was indefensible...a piece of crap of epic proportions---don't lie to these guys.

[ZL-1]

For GM to make Cadillac a Mercedes-Benz would require extricating Cadillac from GMNA, building an organization with a chief executive officer with complete operational control, and capitalizing such a company with 10s of billions of dollars. This is simply not going to happen.

Do you mean independent like they are doing with SAAB (minus the 10s of billions of dollars)?

[Oracle of Delphi]

No offense, but the Catera was/is an unreliable wreck. Engines that routinely failed by 60k and build quality questions doomed the Catera.

Mix in un-Caddy style and a dealer body who had no idea how to sell the thing and you've got a recipe for the disaster that Catera was...unmitigated fail on the part of GM with another euro-transplant.

My boss will hold/sell anything---and Cateras that come in on trade go right out to auction.

I know you work for GME and all....but the Catera was indefensible...a piece of crap of epic proportions---don't lie to these guys.

You need to reread what I wrote ...

[enzl]

You need to reread what I wrote ...

You implied it was an OK car--It wasn't.

Not close. Not in any way, shape or form.

By your judgment, a better tuned suspension and a modern set of engines were what it needed. That's simply untrue.

It was one of the biggest turds the General has produced in the last 20 years. Don't shove a few candles on it and tell these guys its a birthday cake.

You should know better.

[Robert Hall]

It was one of the biggest turds the General has produced in the last 20 years. Don't shove a few candles on it and tell these guys its a birthday cake.

Maybe, but it was RWD. That fact alone made it infinitely better than the dozens of look-alike FWD medicore generics GM built from '80 onward.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I hardly hear anyone say "X is the Cadillac of Y" anymore. It's totally anachronistic. Tell that to the 20-30 something crowd buying Audi A4s, BMWs, Mercedes, or Lexus IS and you're likely to either hear crickets or a smirking "yeah right" as they roll their eyes. That ship has sailed.

For GM to make Cadillac a Mercedes-Benz would require extricating Cadillac from GMNA, building an organization with a chief executive officer with complete operational control, and capitalizing such a company with 10s of billions of dollars. This is simply not going to happen.

That's something older generations said, I think...my Dad was a Lincoln man but he said that occasionally. Never heard anyone my generation say it...my friends and colleagues that are my age range (mid to late 30s) that have premium brand cars have Acuras (TLs, MDX), Audis (A4s), BMWs (3-series, 5-series), Infinitis (G35,G37), a couple w/ Mercedes (C-class, ML) and a couple w/ Lexuses (ES,RX,IS), and Volvos (XC70, XC90). I'm the only one that likes Cadillacs and Lincolns..

So, all those Escalades and Escalade envy that happened for the last 10 years was in vain?

I have a hard time believing that people do not connect Cadillac with "best" (at some point in their history) Do people look at 90's Cadillacs and say it? No. But most people know what the brand was founded on and what it essentially is (if not from history, then from the new products and the tie ins to history via those reviews)

I just don't think it's smart to "give up" on anything. This culture of defeat is what has gotten GM into this mess to begin with. Do any of you think that the asian companies said "We should settle for whatever and know our role in the market." after many failed attempts? HELL NO. They keep building, perfecting and reinventing the brand or product until it becomes what they envisioned.

I just don't get this learned helplessness that Detroit adopted a long time ago about "well, this is the best we can do." and "it's inevitable that our business model is shrinking."

EDIT:

A problem which GM has, is that it spends billions trying something, and when it doesn't work as well as hoped, instead of just fixing it, they nuke the whole deal and do something else. There's something to be said about fixing what needs fixing and focusing on continuing progress.

Exactly!

They refuse to take the value of what they've accomplished and build on it. Instead, theey would rather start all over with a weaker company, worse reputation and less resources. It's suicide.

Edited February 10, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Oracle of Delphi]

You implied it was an OK car--It wasn't.

Not close. Not in any way, shape or form.

By your judgment, a better tuned suspension and a modern set of engines were what it needed. That's simply untrue.

It was one of the biggest turds the General has produced in the last 20 years. Don't shove a few candles on it and tell these guys its a birthday cake.

You should know better.

What I said was GMNA fu*ked with it and that's what made it a piece of $h!, clearer now?

[buyacargetacheck]

No, not at all. But it just demonstrates that Cadillac is primarily an American phenomenon: big, beautiful, bling. No one else around the world "gets" Cadillac aside from a few oddball German and Dutch enthusiasts who like to dress up like Elvis on the weekends and drive 10 mph in their restored Eldorados. It's because of the cheap price of gas here and our superpower status after WWII. Uniquely American.

No one has given up. The CTS is a terrific product. The SRX looks like a winner. It's just that to really put Cadillac in the same league with Mercedes you'd need to spend 10s of billions of dollars cordoning off Cadillac from GMNA as its own organization, with its own engines, platforms, parts and worldwide distribution. While matching the German brands model-for-model. Business-wise, what kind of payoff is there for such an investment? My guess is that it's not high, and it's full of risk -- not a good combo. That would literally be a totally new business venture never attempted by any American automaker in the history of cars.

Cadillac should be what it is and what it has always been since WWII: a premium car with style and flash with a value-proposition that shares some components with its lesser cousins. There's everything right with that starting with profit potential. There are many ways to grow the brand and the profits. My favorites include adding a Lambda and an EpII and that very cool CTS coupe. The Converj is another.

So, all those Escalades and Escalade envy that happened for the last 10 years was in vain?

I just don't think it's smart to "give up" on anything. This culture of defeat is what has gotten GM into this mess to begin with. Do any of you think that the asian companies said "We should settle for whatever and know our role in the market." after many failed attempts? HELL NO. They keep building, perfecting and reinventing the brand or product until it becomes what they envisioned.

I just don't get this learned helplessness that Detroit adopted a long time ago about "well, this is the best we can do." and "it's inevitable that our business model is shrinking."

EDIT:

Exactly!

They refuse to take the value of what they've accomplished and build on it. Instead, theey would rather start all over with a weaker company, worse reputation and less resources. It's suicide.

Edited February 10, 2009 by buyacargetacheck

[Toyota.vs.GM]

What I said was GMNA fu*ked with it and that's what made it a piece of $h!, clearer now?

Not clear enough for enzl .

But then again , he doesn't like anybody who is a ''GM Lifer'' .

I wonder what Wagoner did to enzl's California Wine ? :rotflmao:

Edited February 10, 2009 by Toyota.vs.GM

[enzl]

Not clear enough for enzl .

But then again , he doesn't like anybody who is a ''GM Lifer'' .

I wonder what Wagoner did to enzl's California Wine ? :rotflmao:

First, until his last posts replying to mine, PCS never stated just how bad a product the Catera was...ask any real car guy what kind of product that was, despite it being RWD...it's why you see almost zero on the road---a combination of unreliable, expensive to fix and un-Caddy-like do not a good car make...

ANY defense of that product is simply inexcusable--it was that bad. Check any source--ask a mechanic--it was a disaster, not just bad.

I don't dislike GM lifers, in fact, I don't dislike GM anything. I'm a fan watching a world-leading institution being driven into the ground by misguided management who not only do not know what to do, they obviously can't read their own press clippings and frankly & honestly assess the situation (and PCS has made that point for me quite clearly.)

The Catera is just another example of the gross disconnect between GME and GMNA that consistently resulted in failures, whether it was 70's Opels or 90's Cad-opels or '08 S-opels, the result has been tragically similar. A global company simply shouldn't be that bad at synergy...

...but hey, I'm just a hater That's always been the easier explanation from the peanut gallery here.

....So ignore me like you have for years. I take no pleasure in being right...just wish someone who mattered actually listened....(remember, patriots lead revolutions, too.)