January 2009 Sales: General Motors

[Z-06]

Linkity

GM Reports 129,227 Deliveries in January

• New products and GMAC financing help stabilize retail share above 21 percent for the second consecutive month
• Cars and crossovers were 65 percent of GM retail vehicles sold
• "Presidents Day Sale" begins with 0 percent APR or bonus cash offers on select vehicles for qualified buyers

DETROIT - Driven by an 80 percent reduction in fleet sales, General Motors dealers in the United States delivered 129,227 vehicles in January, down 49 percent compared with a year ago. Retail sales were off 38 percent, but retail market share held steady compared with December. GM's retail share performance was assisted by reduced-rate APR financing capacity through GMAC and a GM loyalty cash offer. GM January total car sales of 43,943 were off 58 percent and total truck sales (including crossovers) of 85,284 were down 42 percent compared with a year ago. Additionally, retail sales for GM cars and crossovers combined were about 65 percent of sales mix in the month.

"We're attacking this unprecedented market as aggressively as possible, while offering more vehicles than ever that provide great value and that Americans enjoy owning," said Mark LaNeve, vice president, GM North America Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing. "Our retail market share is a bright spot, holding steady above 21 percent for the second month in a row. That's a full point above the trailing 12-month average. It's important to realize that we accomplished this retail performance as the overall market ran about 6 million vehicles behind where it was last January (on a seasonally-adjusted annual rate) and every manufacturer was deeply impacted."

The newly-launched Chevrolet Traverse crossover continues to gain traction in the market place with total sales of more than 5,200 vehicles. Chevrolet's crossovers, HHR, Equinox and Traverse had 11,666 retail sales, a 10 percent increase compared with last year. The strength of Traverse's launch helped push retail sales of all GM crossovers to 20 percent of all retail vehicles sold by the automaker in January, up about 3 percentage points from a year ago.

"It is important for America to realize that in cars and crossovers, Chevy is fully competitive with Toyota and Honda and continues to gain strength. The Malibu is performing well and the Traverse is building momentum," LaNeve added. "We're doing our part to get vehicle sales moving again. For example, GMAC is providing more reduced-rate APR financing capacity with the Presidents Day Sale, and we're offering bonus cash on select models. Additionally, our national roll-out of the credit union 'Invest in America' program offers supplier pricing and available credit union financing for millions of members."

A total of 923 GM hybrid vehicles were delivered in the month, illustrating the wide range of hybrid product offerings available. GM offers the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon and Cadillac Escalade 2-mode hybrid SUVs, the Chevrolet Malibu and Saturn Aura mid-size sedan, and Saturn Vue compact crossover hybrids.

GM has announced reductions in first quarter production to adjust inventories for marketplace demand. This strategic move helped reduce inventories and related costs for GM and its dealers during this historic downturn, but the lack of production also meant that fleet vehicles, which typically are built to order, have been delayed. GM's fleet sales of just over 13,000 vehicles in January were at their lowest levels since 1975.

GM inventories dropped compared with a year ago. At the end of January, only about 801,000 vehicles were in stock, down about 103,000 vehicles (or 11 percent) compared with last year. There were about 363,000 cars and 438,000 trucks (including crossovers) in inventory at the end of January. Inventories were reduced about 70,000 vehicles compared with December. Importantly, of the pickup trucks in stock, 96 percent of the GMC Sierras and 97 percent of the Chevrolet Silverados are all-new 2009 models.

Certified Used Vehicles

January 2009 sales for all certified GM brands continue to be robust after a strong gain a month earlier. GM Certified Used Vehicles, Saturn Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles Cadillac Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles, Saab Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles, and HUMMER Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles, combined sold 39,293 vehicles.

GM Certified Used Vehicles, the industry's top-selling certified brand, posted January sales of 33,695 vehicles, up 1 percent from January 2008. Saturn Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles sold 947 vehicles, up 73 percent. Cadillac Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles sold 3,864 vehicles, up 20 percent. Saab Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles sold 538 vehicles, up 25 percent, and HUMMER Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles sold 249 vehicles, up 93 percent.

"The certified used vehicle programs are starting the year strong despite the tight credit market and slowdowns in consumer spending and retail demand for both new and used vehicles," said LaNeve. "We continue to offer consumers the largest selection of certified vehicles and a worry-free purchasing experience that comes with one of the best warranties in the business and a factory-certified, 117-point fully-inspected vehicle."

GM North America Reports January 2009 Production; Q1 2009 Production Forecast at 380,000 Vehicles

In January, GM North America produced 65,000 vehicles (6,000 cars and 59,000 trucks). This is down 232,000 vehicles or 78 percent compared with January 2008 when the region produced 297,000 vehicles (106,000 cars and 191,000 trucks). (Production totals include joint venture production of 3,000 vehicles in January 2009 and 13,000 vehicles in January 2008.)

The region's 2009 first-quarter production forecast is 380,000 vehicles (118,000 cars and 262,000 trucks), which is down about 57 percent compared with a year ago. GM North America built 885,000 vehicles (360,000 cars and 525,000 trucks) in the first-quarter of 2008.

General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM), one of the world's largest automakers, was founded in 1908, and today manufactures cars and trucks in 34 countries. With its global headquarters in Detroit, GM employs 252,000 people in every major region of the world, and sells and services vehicles in some 140 countries. In 2008, GM sold 8.35 million cars and trucks globally under the following brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, GM Daewoo, Holden, Hummer, Opel, Pontiac, Saab, Saturn, Vauxhall and Wuling. GM's largest national market is the United States, followed by China, Brazil, the United Kingdom, Canada, Russia and Germany. GM's OnStar subsidiary is the industry leader in vehicle safety, security and information services. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com.

Note: GM sales and production results are available on GM Media OnLine at

http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en by clicking on News, then Sales/Production. In this press release and related comments by General Motors management, we use words like "expect," "anticipate," "estimate," "forecast," "objective," "plan," "goal" and similar expressions to identify forward-looking statements, representing our current judgment about possible future events. We believe these judgments are reasonable, but actual results may differ materially due to a variety of important factors. Among other items, such factors might include: our ability to comply with the requirements of our credit agreement with the U.S. Department of Treasury; the availability of funding for future loans under that credit agreement; our ability to execute the restructuring plans that we have disclosed, our ability to maintain adequate liquidity and financing sources and an appropriate level of debt; and changes in general economic conditions, market acceptance of our products; shortages of and price increases for fuel; significant changes in the competitive environment and the effect of competition on our markets, including on our pricing policies. GM's most recent annual report on Form 10-K and quarterly report on Form 10-Q provide information about these factors, which may be revised or supplemented in future reports to the SEC on Form 10-Q or 8-K.

[siegen]

What a horrible month. GM seemed to have taken the worst of it, down nearly 51% DSR. What gets me is that the Aveo and Cobalt are both down 71%. Given they are the cheapest cars and volume sellers, they must really be aging poorly, or a factory burnt down somewhere. The money's going to run out quick with more months like that, I hope they can turn it around.

[Satty]

Wow, check out the Excitement! brand, its totally the most important brand. I bet all those Aveo customers are eagerly awaiting the G3.

Why aren't Saturn sales broken down by model like the other 46 brands GM sells?

[enzl]

What a horrible month. GM seemed to have taken the worst of it, down nearly 51% DSR. What gets me is that the Aveo and Cobalt are both down 71%. Given they are the cheapest cars and volume sellers, they must really be aging poorly, or a factory burnt down somewhere. The money's going to run out quick with more months like that, I hope they can turn it around.

No fleet sales to lean on this month for the products mentioned.

The difference between GM and the rest of the industry is more GMAC impotence than anything else.

[Z-06]

No fleet sales to lean on this month for the products mentioned.

The difference between GM and the rest of the industry is more GMAC impotence than anything else.

Didn't GMAC receive $5 B late last year? What happened to that money?

[Satty]

Didn't GMAC receive $5 B late last year? What happened to that money?

Margaritas?

[enzl]

Didn't GMAC receive $5 B late last year? What happened to that money?

Perhaps Margs

Or, they've stuffed it in their 'mattress' (i.e. Reserves) awaiting the day that the economy allows Cerberus to continue their role as Master of the Universe. (See the rest of the TARP boondoggle for their inspiration)

Until then, expect GM's 'house' financing to be a mixture of half-measures and tight credit decision-making. (I wouldn't lend people money on GM or Chrysler cars either, so I can't blame them)

[GXT]

Didn't GMAC receive $5 B late last year? What happened to that money?

As I understand it they immediately lowered their criteria for borrowers. That was December. So the money should have been flowing again all January.

[Z-06]

As I understand it they immediately lowered their criteria for borrowers. That was December. So the money should have been flowing again all January.

Apparently the walls between consumers and lenders are still not transparent as they were hoped to be.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM has made arrangements to regain control of GMAC

[buyacargetacheck]

The lack of fleet sales reveals GM's "true" size. Too much capacity and too many weak brands dividing the remaining sales. GM doesn't need 2 Lambda plants or 2 Epsilon plants. Cobalt down 70%? Why are you surprised? It's into its 6th year in a very competitive segment. And it looked too much like its predecessor when it was new. Is Hamtramck profitable at a 50K run rate? Too many plants, too many workers, no vision, no urgency.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Many in GM are wishing they had those fleet sales now. Even if they only made a small profit, it was still a profit. Oh you should hear the lamenting and the gnashing of teeth.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[ZL-1]

Margaritas?

:rotflmao:

I know this isn't a Toyota sales thread, but that was the 'best evah' reply!

[CaddyXLR-V]

Wow, check out the Excitement! brand, its totally the most important brand. I bet all those Aveo customers are eagerly awaiting the G3.

Why aren't Saturn sales broken down by model like the other 46 brands GM sells?

They are. And yes look at the Excitement brand. The G8 almost outsold the Aura despite having a much higher price. It's doesn't look like either saturn or buick is a more important brand to me, yet that's where the money is going.

[2QuickZ's]

Ouch. Another ugly month. HHR sales down almost 80%. Another fleet victim. You can pretty much look at that sales chart and see who the fleet queens are, not that we didn't know already. HHR, Aveo, Cobalt, G6 (down 82%). One of the few bright spots, if you can call it that, was the Enclave. It was only down 20%! Brutal, brutal, brutal.

[smk4565]

The Fit and Civic are good products, the Cobalt and Aveo are not, so it isn't surprising at all that GM's small cars are getting killed. That is what happens when you put all your resources into full size SUVs, and don't invest in small cars. Pontiac down 60% means they are dead, too many underfunded brands that GM can't afford to keep alive. Saab didn't even sell 1,000 cars, it is time to cut down to 4 brands, and hope they can rebuild. If they do nothing, GM won't be around in 2 years.

Hyundai looks like they get it, the Genesis worked, it legitimized the brand and now people are willing to consider and even buy a Hyundai.

[enzl]

GM has made arrangements to regain control of GMAC

Federal Regs regarding TARP funds will reduce both GM's & Cerberus' stake in GMAC. I believe both will have their shares narrowed to 30% or less of the 'bank' that GMAC has become.

GM cannot own more than a certain smaller % of GMAC for the time being.

[Northstar]

The G8 did pretty good considering the economy and auto sales for the month. The G6 sold 2400 and it sold 1300...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Many in GM are wishing they had those fleet sales now. Even if they only made a small profit, it was still a profit. Oh you should hear the lamenting and the gnashing of teeth.

Fleet sales (in moderation) are good business...

Too bad GM is reducing it's apparent fleet division to a niche.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Hyundai looks like they get it, the Genesis worked, it legitimized the brand and now people are willing to consider and even buy a Hyundai.

So GM shouldn't build RWD cars, but Hyundai should?

And FWIW, the Hyundai buy back offer saved Hyundai's ass, not the Genesis.

[gmcbob]

Wow, this is pretty ugly. What's real crazy is how GM only sold about 12000 more units than Toyota last month.

Obviously this has a lot to do with our bad economy, people losing jobs, and many buyers (including rental car companies) who need or want a car not being able to get it financed. But if you really look at these numbers and begin to realize just how badly some of these mainstream models like the G6 and Impala did without the benefit of fleet sales, it really starts to sink in just how badly GM was positioned to weather this kind of a storm when it came to their cars.

Nothing bothers me more than when I hear or read people making that infamous comment that "GM builds cars people don't want to buy" - but in a way there is a little bit of truth to that statement unfortunately. When you look at GM and compare them to Toyota for January sales, you start to really see where they totally aren't competitive in the small and mid size market. Yes, the new Malibu is nice, and I have a feeling that the new Cruze (and Volt) will probably be pretty nice little cars, but where in the hell were these cars five years ago?

Times are awful for the entire industry, but I think it has really exposed how truly weak GM is in some very critical segments. What a disaster.

Edited February 4, 2009 by gmcbob

[smk4565]

So GM shouldn't build RWD cars, but Hyundai should?

And FWIW, the Hyundai buy back offer saved Hyundai's ass, not the Genesis.

I have always said GM should make rear wheel drive cars. Although I think importing the G8 from Australia is a half-assed way to do it, they should have designed something from scratch like they did with the original CTS, but for Chevy/Buick use. I also think GM should build more small to medium rear drivers, rear drive cars don't have to be full size or over 4,000 pounds. If they build the best car in the world, they'll find customers, if they build mediocre and try to sell the deal, they won't. They need to start advertising cars and not mentioning price or discounts.

What Hyundai did right is build an excellent car that was able to change the perception of their brand, and got people to look more closely at Hyundai and see the value in their cars. The Santa Fe, Veracruz and Sonata all have pretty good interiors and powertrains and are priced lower than comparable Japanese brands. Plus the long warranty and assurance plan, I can see why Hyundai is a growing brand.

[regfootball]

Apparently the walls between consumers and lenders are still not transparent as they were hoped to be.

if half the households in America werent afraid of losing their jobs, people would buy.

[regfootball]

Many in GM are wishing they had those fleet sales now. Even if they only made a small profit, it was still a profit. Oh you should hear the lamenting and the gnashing of teeth.

fleet sales are fine. what GM effed on was fleeting out cars that were 5,6,7 years into production without updates. i.e. GM totally sucks at keeping products fresh. people thought fleeting was what killed resale. UM NO. its old product that reduces showroom demand that kills resale.

If I were running GM I would be pounding pavement to make big fleet sales right now to keep unit volumes up and possibly be increasing share. Few carmakers will be profitable in the next year, so its better to gain share with losing some dough than it is to not sell cars. The current demand for used cars will drive the used car prices up eventually, it already has, and resales are holding pretty well or going up on many cars out there. So fleeting and taking market from Toyo and Hyundai and Kia with some Cobalts and G6's and LaCrosses I hardly find a problem.

[regfootball]

Wow, this is pretty ugly. What's real crazy is how GM only sold about 12000 more units than Toyota last month.

Obviously this has a lot to do with our bad economy, people losing jobs, and many buyers (including rental car companies) who need or want a car not being able to get it financed. But if you really look at these numbers and begin to realize just how badly some of these mainstream models like the G6 and Impala did without the benefit of fleet sales, it really starts to sink in just how badly GM was positioned to weather this kind of a storm when it came to their cars.

Nothing bothers me more than when I hear or read people making that infamous comment that "GM builds cars people don't want to buy" - but in a way there is a little bit of truth to that statement unfortunately. When you look at GM and compare them to Toyota for January sales, you start to really see where they totally aren't competitive in the small and mid size market. Yes, the new Malibu is nice, and I have a feeling that the new Cruze (and Volt) will probably be pretty nice little cars, but where in the hell were these cars five years ago?

Times are awful for the entire industry, but I think it has really exposed how truly weak GM is in some very critical segments. What a disaster.

GM should be readying the plan for a fully funded remake of a new Malibu for 2012 model year. The new design and cheap interior will become big flaws in the market in not too long. New Impala should be 2010-11. Cruze will help but its too late too. Even the trucks need an interior complete redo.

[regfootball]

I have always said GM should make rear wheel drive cars. Although I think importing the G8 from Australia is a half-assed way to do it, they should have designed something from scratch like they did with the original CTS, but for Chevy/Buick use. I also think GM should build more small to medium rear drivers, rear drive cars don't have to be full size or over 4,000 pounds. If they build the best car in the world, they'll find customers, if they build mediocre and try to sell the deal, they won't. They need to start advertising cars and not mentioning price or discounts.

What Hyundai did right is build an excellent car that was able to change the perception of their brand, and got people to look more closely at Hyundai and see the value in their cars. The Santa Fe, Veracruz and Sonata all have pretty good interiors and powertrains and are priced lower than comparable Japanese brands. Plus the long warranty and assurance plan, I can see why Hyundai is a growing brand.

hyundai sells because it is cheap.

veracruz feels cheap inside. sonata is third tier. the warranty is a come on. its a tag line and people don't read the actual fine print. the reason the genesis works so far is because it sells as a budget lexus. the g8 makes no such pretense. it compares it performance to a BMW, but make no pretense of being a poser car like the genesis is. the G8's only flaws are no available RWD, unrefine v6 powertrain (which is fixed in 2010) and it probably should have an OHC v8 option. the g8's interior should be a little nicer, but its not trying to be a lexus replacement.

[smk4565]

hyundai sells because it is cheap.

veracruz feels cheap inside. sonata is third tier. the warranty is a come on. its a tag line and people don't read the actual fine print. the reason the genesis works so far is because it sells as a budget lexus. the g8 makes no such pretense. it compares it performance to a BMW, but make no pretense of being a poser car like the genesis is. the G8's only flaws are no available RWD, unrefine v6 powertrain (which is fixed in 2010) and it probably should have an OHC v8 option. the g8's interior should be a little nicer, but its not trying to be a lexus replacement.

The Sonata interior is just as good as the Malibu's or Fusion's. The Accord is still best in class, but the Sonata isn't 3rd tier. And their V6 is 249 hp, and 19/29 mpg, which is pretty good mileage for a V6. Not that I'd buy one, but they give you a lot for the money.

G8 tried to be the budget BMW, and no one cared or believed it, and why did GM launch it with an unrefined V6 in the first place, or a cheapish interior? Why not get it right the first time out? They should have never compared it to BMW, and GM needs brands that have their own unique identity, not with the goal of being a cheap knock off of other brands. Buick shouldn't be a poor man's Lexus, they should be Buick. Cadillac should be Cadillac, not part BMW, part Lexus, at a discount. BMW and Mercedes never compare themselves to any other brand, they only continually push their image. Honda does the same thing, they have focus.

GM should be Chevy, Buick, GMC (for commercial trucks, vans, fleets) and Cadillac by the end of 2009. Everything else they make is a drain on the company, and Buick should be on a very short leash. Personally I thought Buick was dead in 2006, and I am not sure it is possible to save them, but I think GM should have something between Chevy and Cadillac.

[smk4565]

hyundai sells because it is cheap.

But Pontiac's are cheaper and they dropped 60.5%

[Drew Dowdell]

But Pontiac's are cheaper and they dropped 60.5%

Hyundai has a better warranty and Hyundai doesn't have people like you beating the "They're gonna die soon" drum.

[regfootball]

The Sonata interior is just as good as the Malibu's or Fusion's. The Accord is still best in class, but the Sonata isn't 3rd tier. And their V6 is 249 hp, and 19/29 mpg, which is pretty good mileage for a V6. Not that I'd buy one, but they give you a lot for the money.

G8 tried to be the budget BMW, and no one cared or believed it, and why did GM launch it with an unrefined V6 in the first place, or a cheapish interior? Why not get it right the first time out? They should have never compared it to BMW, and GM needs brands that have their own unique identity, not with the goal of being a cheap knock off of other brands. Buick shouldn't be a poor man's Lexus, they should be Buick. Cadillac should be Cadillac, not part BMW, part Lexus, at a discount. BMW and Mercedes never compare themselves to any other brand, they only continually push their image. Honda does the same thing, they have focus.

GM should be Chevy, Buick, GMC (for commercial trucks, vans, fleets) and Cadillac by the end of 2009. Everything else they make is a drain on the company, and Buick should be on a very short leash. Personally I thought Buick was dead in 2006, and I am not sure it is possible to save them, but I think GM should have something between Chevy and Cadillac.

the accord i drove recently had a crap interior and honestly was not that solid of a car. plus, its ugly. if you consider that top of class, be my guest. The accord is not that great of a car. A couple seasons of winter potholes and its flimsy chassis will be mush, if you haven't vomited from the style excessively by then.

g8 actually can perform on extremely close to on par with the BMW's. the only reason the v6 is currently unrefined is its application which is much smoothers in other GM vehicles, needs some NVH tuning and a better transmission in the v6 version. I have no doubt that a 6 speed DI v6 with some additional NVH tuning for 2010 will address this stuff. Praise has already been heaped on the v6 in the Zeta Camaro predrives.

Sonata's interior prior to this year was a joke. Now its simply mid pack. the styling is geriatric and themed off a nineties version ford escort sedan. You love to heap praise on Hyundai, a brand that has made its living off of fleeting most of their product for the last couple years, because the homeland mafia doesn't believe in moderating production...........aided by a warranty that is all tagline and not much real benefit to most customers.

You talk about all these great cars that are supposedly prestigious and then you use Hyundai as an example. Hyundai is still faux. The Genesis is the only model they have put out that has any chance of redefining the brand to anything other than what it is. Cheap knockoffs. And the Genesis is merely 'Lexus' 20 years later.

Edited February 4, 2009 by regfootball

[2QuickZ's]

The Sonata interior is just as good as the Malibu's or Fusion's. The Accord is still best in class, but the Sonata isn't 3rd tier. And their V6 is 249 hp, and 19/29 mpg, which is pretty good mileage for a V6. Not that I'd buy one, but they give you a lot for the money.

Accord best in class? Not in interiors. Of the mid sizers I've been in, the Honda is the only one with a hard instrument panel. Everybody else has soft instrument panels. Of course, I guess Honda can get away with that and still be "best in class".

[GXT]

the accord i drove recently had a crap interior and honestly was not that solid of a car. plus, its ugly. if you consider that top of class, be my guest. The accord is not that great of a car. A couple seasons of winter potholes and its flimsy chassis will be mush, if you haven't vomited from the style excessively by then.

I know you have an illogical hate for the Accord (did one kill your mother or something?), but even for you this is baseless.

Take it from someone who lives in a place with real winters (perhaps a dozen extended periods of -40 to -50 degrees C weather per year), a place where you actually do have a chance of dying if your car doesn't start, that the Accord handles winters very well. In spite of your "expert" opinion, I've never had any chassis or suspension issues with any of my Accords or my TL and I don't know of anyone who has.

Perhaps you aren't used to fully independent suspensions and it is confusing you? Perhaps a Buick or some other car where you don't even know whether or not you are on the road would be more to your liking?

[smk4565]

the accord i drove recently had a crap interior and honestly was not that solid of a car. plus, its ugly. if you consider that top of class, be my guest. The accord is not that great of a car. A couple seasons of winter potholes and its flimsy chassis will be mush, if you haven't vomited from the style excessively by then.

g8 actually can perform on extremely close to on par with the BMW's. the only reason the v6 is currently unrefined is its application which is much smoothers in other GM vehicles, needs some NVH tuning and a better transmission in the v6 version. I have no doubt that a 6 speed DI v6 with some additional NVH tuning for 2010 will address this stuff. Praise has already been heaped on the v6 in the Zeta Camaro predrives.

Sonata's interior prior to this year was a joke. Now its simply mid pack. the styling is geriatric and themed off a nineties version ford escort sedan. You love to heap praise on Hyundai, a brand that has made its living off of fleeting most of their product for the last couple years, because the homeland mafia doesn't believe in moderating production...........aided by a warranty that is all tagline and not much real benefit to most customers.

You talk about all these great cars that are supposedly prestigious and then you use Hyundai as an example. Hyundai is still faux. The Genesis is the only model they have put out that has any chance of redefining the brand to anything other than what it is. Cheap knockoffs. And the Genesis is merely 'Lexus' 20 years later.

The Accord is a perennial C&D 10 Best and Automobile All Star, and it's sales volumes over the past 25 years speak for themselves. The Camry is for sure not the best car in that class, Altima is pretty good, 2010 Fusion looks promising, Malibu looks nice on the outside, but the Accord is still the gold standard of family sedans. And Honda has the best resale value of any brand, people trust Honda. GM needs to get people to believe their cars will last forever and not break down.

The G8 is not as good of a driving experience as a BMW, it has straight line speed, but so do a lot of cars, like a Mustang GT for example. The G8 just isn't a good enough car, otherwise it would sell. I do think the CTS's DI engine would do well in the $25-35k segment, however the CTS's DI V6 is not as refined as BMW's inline six, so I'd like to see Cadillac get a better engine. I could tell when I drove the CTS they used a lot of sound deadening around the engine to try to isolate the driver from the lack of refinement and engine noise, in the 5-series you don't feel as detached, you're more connected to the road, the engine note is better, it revs freer, the engine is just amazing.

What the Genesis did was allow Hyundai to sell more Sonatas, Santa Fes, etc. It is a halo car that works, unlike many of GM's halo cars that aren't generating sales across the brand. If Cadillac had the S-class and not Mercedes, I guarantee that sales of all other Cadillac models would rise.

Brands need focus, a constant image and a true halo car, GM brands lack that, and will always lack that as long as there are 8 half assed brands rather than 3 excellent ones. February auto sales may be even worse than this month, and since government money is the only think that will keep the lights on until 2010, they better come up with a plan, because I don't think they'll get another bailout check f sales drop 50% again and Wagoner's response is "we are weathering the storm while the market readjusts"

[Drew Dowdell]

I know you have an illogical hate for the Accord (did one kill your mother or something?), but even for you this is baseless.

Take it from someone who lives in a place with real winters (perhaps a dozen extended periods of -40 to -50 degrees C weather per year), a place where you actually do have a chance of dying if your car doesn't start, that the Accord handles winters very well. In spite of your "expert" opinion, I've never had any chassis or suspension issues with any of my Accords or my TL and I don't know of anyone who has.

Perhaps you aren't used to fully independent suspensions and it is confusing you? Perhaps a Buick or some other car where you don't even know whether or not you are on the road would be more to your liking?

Of the 4 Honda's I've driven recently <CRV, Oddyssy, Accord, Civic Hybrid> only the Civic felt relatively solid. The CRV slams over every road imperfection and feels flimsy. Very bad surfaces cause knocking in the front end. The Oddyssy rattled like a mo'fo' and I was shocked that this was considered best in segment. And the Accord felt like a very big economy car, meaning it felt relatively light and nimble but not especially solid when the road got rough. I think the previous generation was better.

Sure the engines fired up every time, but is that really a challenge these days? Other than the Civic, which I thought deserved it's reputation, I didn't feel that these Honda's deserved the title of best of the best.

I live in an area where you know when you crossed the state line because your teeth stop chattering from the rough pavement.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Accord is a perennial C&D 10 Best and Automobile All Star, and it's sales volumes over the past 25 years speak for themselves. The Camry is for sure not the best car in that class, Altima is pretty good, 2010 Fusion looks promising, Malibu looks nice on the outside, but the Accord is still the gold standard of family sedans. And Honda has the best resale value of any brand, people trust Honda. GM needs to get people to believe their cars will last forever and not break down.

The Accord does nothing in particular to deserve that honour besides start up every morning and wear an H badge. GM need to get people to believe their cars will last.... so when do you stop bashing them?

[Intrepidation]

So GM shouldn't build RWD cars, but Hyundai should?

And FWIW, the Hyundai buy back offer saved Hyundai's ass, not the Genesis.

Clever marketing, this is. GM only wishes they could market so well.

[smk4565]

The Accord does nothing in particular to deserve that honour besides start up every morning and wear an H badge. GM need to get people to believe their cars will last.... so when do you stop bashing them?

GM has some good products, but not enough good products. Their management is incompetent and they have mismanaged their brands and the brands are all weak. Weak brand images lead to poor sales in any industry, and in the auto industry now, if your product isn't great, people won't buy it. With all the information on the Internet and all the media publications that evaluate cars, consumers are more informed than ever.

I don't mean so much to bash a car like the CTS or Malibu, but GM management's belief that those 2 are class leaders and will be enough to turn a brand around. This CTS sells no better than the old CTS did, and the STS sales fell off the map when it came out, so they haven't gained any ground. My real problem with GM is they don't know how far they need to go to return to greatness. For example, Cadillac touted the 3 mm body gaps on the CTS, but on an S-class they are 1.4 millimeters. 3 mm may be the best Cadillac has ever done, but if the other guy has done it twice as well, so what? And how do you take the CTS seriously as a sports sedan when it is parked next to a red DTS with vinyl top, gold badges and white wall tires in the showroom.

The commitment to excellence isn't there yet, GM needs to find that or they will just keep dying the slow death.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM has some good products, but not enough good products. Their management is incompetent and they have mismanaged their brands and the brands are all weak. Weak brand images lead to poor sales in any industry, and in the auto industry now, if your product isn't great, people won't buy it. With all the information on the Internet and all the media publications that evaluate cars, consumers are more informed than ever.

I don't mean so much to bash a car like the CTS or Malibu, but GM management's belief that those 2 are class leaders and will be enough to turn a brand around. This CTS sells no better than the old CTS did, and the STS sales fell off the map when it came out, so they haven't gained any ground. My real problem with GM is they don't know how far they need to go to return to greatness. For example, Cadillac touted the 3 mm body gaps on the CTS, but on an S-class they are 1.4 millimeters. 3 mm may be the best Cadillac has ever done, but if the other guy has done it twice as well, so what? And how do you take the CTS seriously as a sports sedan when it is parked next to a red DTS with vinyl top, gold badges and white wall tires in the showroom.

The commitment to excellence isn't there yet, GM needs to find that or they will just keep dying the slow death.

Then why do you bash the CTS and Malibu? You've done it. I've seen it. Knock it off, you aren't helping the situation. GM cannot return to greatness all at once. NO COMPANY CAN. It takes rolling out product over time. Here GM released the CTS but because they are still selling the DTS, you are bashing them. People read these forums. We are frequently in the top of google searches for GM products. People who don't know that you're a rampant GM basher with an agenda don't know that "Today's CTS Bashing by SMK" isn't the truth.... which in your case it rarely is.

What other cars in the CTS's price class (srsly? CTS v. S-class? WTF?) have 3mm panel gaps?

[Z-06]

The G8 is not as good of a driving experience as a BMW, it has straight line speed, but so do a lot of cars, like a Mustang GT for example. The G8 just isn't a good enough car, otherwise it would sell.

Here is Car and Driver's quotes for G8GT. And with the Link.

Some of our contemporaries have been rhapsodizing that the styling of this sedan from Holden, GM's Australian division, conveys an impression of crowds gathering wherever it rolls. But in a week of Southern California cruising, we encountered exactly one guy who did a double take when we motored by. This is not to say the G8 is unattractive, and those fender flares, the forward rake, and the wide stance give it a more virile look than that of the GTO, Pontiac's ill-starred attempt at Americanizing a Holden Commodore coupe. But parked next to the brawny Charg­er, the G8 looks as though it could stand an introduction to a set of barbells. So we give the exterior a B, a grade that includes a points reduction for those nonfunctional hood scoops.

But that's just about our only reservation, if you can even call it that. Once inside, with the 6.0-liter V-8 strutting its stuff, the G8 seduces the pilot with its grunt, its poise, its eager responses, and the confidence it inspires in decreasing-radius turns with blind entries, or hold-your-breath sweepers, or 100-to-0-mph stops. Like the Charger, the G8's defining dynamic trait is mild understeer, right up to the limits of adhesion. But the G8's limits are higher, the steering is more tactile—as well as nicely weighted—and the certainty that goes with high-speed driving on mountain roads is sensational. BMW might do it better, but not by much. And not for this kind of money.

One additional word on braking: Although the G8's pedal travel was a little longer than the Charger's in hard use, there was no trace of fade, and stops from 70 mph in 163 feet in a two-ton sedan qualify as extraordinary.

GM's six-speed automatic trumps the Dodge five-speed, although the manumatic function of both comes up average, with deliberate shifts. But six cogs are better than five for keeping the engine in the sweet section of its power band.

Like pretty much any big V-8, this one—dubbed L76 at Holden, a version of an older 6.0-liter design updated with cylinder deactivation—has plenty of torque (385 pound-feet) spread across a nice fat curve. If there's any deficiency, it's in the whooma department. The Charger's exhaust note was much more reminiscent of Saturday night on Woodward Avenue, circa 1968.

Inside, the G8's mostly black décor is relieved by silver trim and varied textures. We quickly tired of the oil and battery readouts at the top of the center stack—why monitor the battery in a nonhybrid car?—and Holden's cruise control isn't quite as user-friendly as those in GM's North American products. The absence of an optional navigation system—strange, given the nice big screen in the center stack—will be a turnoff to some, as will the front-seatback rake adjustment, accomplished by turning a hard-to-get-at knob at the outside rear of the seat.

But most of the G8's niggles are the kind that become transparent over time to an owner, especially when that owner feels he's bolted himself into a performance bargain. Which is precisely what this car represents.

Let's close the service with a money perspective. A while back, we tested a group of high-end sports sedans ["Faster Horses," November 2006], a quartet that included a BMW 550i. With the exception of the lane-change exercise, the Bimmer's test-track numbers were essentially identical with those generated by this new Poncho. The base price for a 550i today is $59,275. Subtract the G8's as-tested price, and you have $27,430, which buys a lot of premium unleaded. Hallelujah, brothers and sisters! Can we get an amen?

Now tell me if my English has gone bad too, just like my German did when I read Audi A8 was a front driver. Please do not make unsupported comments. There will be prospective buyers or people looking to get into GM, reading comments and they will take your perspective as a holy grail. Perform some research. It might take 1 minute to write on a blog, but it takes several to justify that writing.

[smk4565]

Then why do you bash the CTS and Malibu? You've done it. I've seen it. Knock it off, you aren't helping the situation. GM cannot return to greatness all at once. NO COMPANY CAN. It takes rolling out product over time. Here GM released the CTS but because they are still selling the DTS, you are bashing them. People read these forums. We are frequently in the top of google searches for GM products. People who don't know that you're a rampant GM basher with an agenda don't know that "Today's CTS Bashing by SMK" isn't the truth.... which in your case it rarely is.

What other cars in the CTS's price class (srsly? CTS v. S-class? WTF?) have 3mm panel gaps?

Genesis has 3 mm panel gaps. (although I made a mistake the S-class has 3 mm gaps as well) The CTS is a good car, but I don't see it as being the best, because of little details like no V8, no push button start, high weight, engine refinement, etc. To get people to switch from Mercedes/BMW/Lexus/Audi, the CTS has to be absolutely great, otherwise why would loyal import buyers switch. Same goes for the Malibu, if it isn't at least 15% better than a Camry or Accord, people aren't going to switch and the sales over the past year indicate that.

Cadillac still focuses on price and rebate (or red tag sale price or 0% financing) on their CTS ads, yet BMW doesn't put the price in their ads, and just says it is the ultimate driving machine and engineered better than any other car. GM has to make people want their car, not buy it only because it had a $6500 rebate, or else they will never make money.

I think I've been pretty objective on my GM product comments, if the products I was criticizing were great, sales wouldn't be down 50%. I know it takes time, but great product is the only way to recovery, and if they try to feed 8 brands, all 8 will starve. I criticized the Lambdas because it was a second lineup of full size SUVs, when GM needed cars, now their car sales are down 58%. GM's product planning is terrible.

[smk4565]

The G8 may post similar track numbers, but you can't measure the feel or driver input and road feedback a BMW gives. And the 550i isn't one of the better handling BMWs, the 535i and all the 3-series handle better because of weight and weight distribution, but I get that they are comparing V8 to V8 and similar curb weights. Although the comparison is dumb anyway, BMW is a luxury car, Pontiac is not. Comparing the G8 to the CTS makes more sense, at least they are semi-close in price. I know everyone here loves the G8, but it doesn't sell and used V8 models are going for $20k or less already, the car is a flop. GM needs money makers, criticize the Camry all you want, but that car has printed a lot of money over the years. I'd never buy one and I hate the car, but it makes them money, which is something GM's cars aren't doing right now.

[2QuickZ's]

Genesis has 3 mm panel gaps. (although I made a mistake the S-class has 3 mm gaps as well) The CTS is a good car, but I don't see it as being the best, because of little details like no V8, no push button start, high weight, engine refinement, etc. To get people to switch from Mercedes/BMW/Lexus/Audi, the CTS has to be absolutely great, otherwise why would loyal import buyers switch. Same goes for the Malibu, if it isn't at least 15% better than a Camry or Accord, people aren't going to switch and the sales over the past year indicate that.

High weight?

BMW 535i = 3660 lbs

Genesis V6 = 3750 lbs

CTS V6 = 3900 lbs

Genesis V8 = 4000 lbs

S550 V8 = 4450 lbs

It may be higher than the V6 Genesis but it's still lower than the V8. Are you comparing a RWD Genesis to an AWD CTS?

Edited February 4, 2009 by 2QuickZ's

[Drew Dowdell]

Genesis has 3 mm panel gaps. (although I made a mistake the S-class has 3 mm gaps as well)

So the CTS is as good as the S-Class yet half the cost.

The CTS is a good car, but I don't see it as being the best,

Because of superfluous details like...

because of little details like no V8

X CTS-V has a V-8 for less money than a 550i and will run circles around it.

, no push button start,

Doesn't make or break a luxury car.

high weight,

The CTS RWD is within 170lbs of the 535i. The CTS AWD is 50lbs lighter then a 535ix.

engine refinement, etc.

No V6 will ever match the inherent smoothness of an I6, but the CTS is right there with MB's and Audi's V6es.

To get people to switch from Mercedes/BMW/Lexus/Audi, the CTS has to be absolutely great, otherwise why would loyal import buyers switch. Same goes for the Malibu, if it isn't at least 15% better than a Camry or Accord, people aren't going to switch and the sales over the past year indicate that.

Except that up until this financial meltdown where no one can get financing, Malibu retail sales have been way up. People are getting the message.

Cadillac still focuses on price and rebate (or red tag sale price or 0% financing) on their CTS ads, yet BMW doesn't put the price in their ads, and just says it is the ultimate driving machine and engineered better than any other car. GM has to make people want their car, not buy it only because it had a $6500 rebate, or else they will never make money.

Certainly helps BMW when you're out there brow beating people into thinking the CTS is the next Cimarron.

I think I've been pretty objective on my GM product comments,

That would require using acurate facts. You don't. Therefore you are not objective.

if the products I was criticizing were great, sales wouldn't be down 50%.

Right, like there hasn't been a financial meltdown and GMAC can't finance people anymore.

Nobody is buying anything. Every manufacturer was down in January.

Keep posting like this and I'll keep my promise to you.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So much bullsh*t in this thread that I don't even know where to start...

[GXT]

Of the 4 Honda's I've driven recently <CRV, Oddyssy, Accord, Civic Hybrid> only the Civic felt relatively solid. The CRV slams over every road imperfection and feels flimsy. Very bad surfaces cause knocking in the front end. The Oddyssy rattled like a mo'fo' and I was shocked that this was considered best in segment. And the Accord felt like a very big economy car, meaning it felt relatively light and nimble but not especially solid when the road got rough. I think the previous generation was better.

Sure the engines fired up every time, but is that really a challenge these days? Other than the Civic, which I thought deserved it's reputation, I didn't feel that these Honda's deserved the title of best of the best.

No one is perfect. But Honda has the best fleet fuel economy by some 10% over the second best, has best or near best resale ratings according to the ALG, according to the IIHS they are pushing safety the most, and they have the best or near best RELIABILITY (not QUALITY). That they happen to be generally well thought out vehicles and don't have the suspension of a Buick is also a bonus (even if you feel the road because of it). You add all that up and even a few rattles can't sway the end result.

The "engine not starting" was admittedly a bit melodramatic of me. Cars tend to fire up these days... the question is whether that check engine light comes on shortly afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I would agree that some Honda's tend to have too many rattles. I've nearly sworn them off a few times because of one rattle in my TL that comes back whenever it is -20 degrees C or colder. But then I think that seeing as how that is all I have to complain about, that isn't really so bad.

My wife's lease is up this summer and she keeps commenting on the Camry. It makes me cringe, but then she came from a family where the sign of a good car was if the experience was more "sitting on couch" rather than "driving".

Edited February 5, 2009 by GXT

[Drew Dowdell]

No one is perfect. But Honda has the best fleet fuel economy by some 10% over the second best, has best or near best resale ratings according to the ALG, according to the IIHS they are pushing safety the most, and they have the best or near best RELIABILITY (not QUALITY). That they happen to be generally well thought out vehicles and don't have the suspension of a Buick is also a bonus (even if you feel the road because of it). You add all that up and even a few rattles can't sway the end result.

The "engine not starting" was admittedly a bit melodramatic of me. Cars tend to fire up these days... the question is whether that check engine light comes on shortly afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I would agree that some Honda's tend to have too many rattles. I've nearly sworn them off a few times because of one rattle in my TL that comes back whenever it is -20 degrees C or colder. But then I think that seeing as how that is all I have to complain about, that isn't really so bad.

My wife's lease is up this summer and she keeps commenting on the Camry. It makes me cringe, but then she came from a family where the sign of a good car was if the experience was more "sitting on couch" rather than "driving".

My CTS never had a rattle.

[toyoguy]

No one is perfect. But Honda has the best fleet fuel economy by some 10% over the second best, has best or near best resale ratings according to the ALG, according to the IIHS they are pushing safety the most, and they have the best or near best RELIABILITY (not QUALITY). That they happen to be generally well thought out vehicles and don't have the suspension of a Buick is also a bonus (even if you feel the road because of it). You add all that up and even a few rattles can't sway the end result.

Toyota has the highest fleet fuel economy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/25/toyota-...l-year-with-29/

[smk4565]

CAFE calculates weird, and that was 07. I know I read something that rated Honda as number 1 in fuel economy, maybe it was 08 CAFE or else it was based on EPA figures. Either way, notice Honda and Toyota are both 4 mpg higher than any of the domestics, so that isn't helping Detroit any.

[SAmadei]

Here is Car and Driver's quotes for G8GT. And with the Link.

The C&D I just got in the mail (April '09?) has a short review of the G8 GXP, which C&D is starting to take _very_ seriously. In the rear of the magazine, they have their "current top 5's"... the G8 GT is top Sport Sedan and G8 GXP is top American muscle car, IIRC. In fact, for a magazine that nearly declared the BMW M3 the winner in an all-Corvette comparo (Just kidding), I felt GM had a pretty good showing in the "current top 5's" with the G8, Vette, CTS and Cobalt SS.

[Lamar]

Because of surpifulous details like...

*Superfluous.*

Otherwise, on-point smackdown job.

Did anyone chime in on how the Astra was the only GM vehicle to gain?