A Big Asstra Inventory

[ocnblu]

So I understand there will be no 2009 model year Saturn Astra due to an almost complete lack of sales for the 2008. A model designated as a 2010 will be released sometime in the spring with a few new colors. Sad that a Saturn small car, which the brand was built upon back in the day, is now put so far on the back burner because of a total lack of buyer interest. Yeah, GME will be the saviour of GM... I think not.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So I understand there will be no 2009 model year Saturn Astra due to an almost complete lack of sales for the 2008. A model designated as a 2010 will be released sometime in the spring with a few new colors. Sad that a Saturn small car, which the brand was built upon back in the day, is now put so far on the back burner because of a total lack of buyer interest. Yeah, GME will be the saviour of GM... I think not.

Well we can't save every North American brand, we are too busy saving Buick now, with all those wonderful EP IIs. The W car of thr 21st century,

[Intrepidation]

So GM plans to make EPII stick around for 91 years? Super.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well we can't save every North American brand, we are too busy saving Buick now, with all those wonderful EP IIs. The W car of thr 21st century,

LOL...

I fear for Buick then, given your recent track record...

Catera did NOTHING for Cadillac, L Series did nothing for Saturn... Then an entire line up of Opels did nothing for Saturn. looks like Buick is in trouble.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So I understand there will be no 2009 model year Saturn Astra due to an almost complete lack of sales for the 2008. A model designated as a 2010 will be released sometime in the spring with a few new colors. Sad that a Saturn small car, which the brand was built upon back in the day, is now put so far on the back burner because of a total lack of buyer interest. Yeah, GME will be the saviour of GM... I think not.

And just think, this is GME's 'most fabulous product'

[Drew Dowdell]

Catera did NOTHING for Cadillac, L Series did nothing for Saturn... Then an entire line up of Opels did nothing for Saturn. looks like Buick is in trouble.

To be fair, the Catera was half assed and we didn't even get the good engines. We got the engine Europe didn't want.

The L-series was never really marketed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

To be fair, the Catera was half assed and we didn't even get the good engines. We got the engine Europe didn't want.

The L-series was never really marketed.

I know... But keep in mind that EVERYTHING GM does is half assed... So that makes my point all the more relevant.

[smk4565]

I know... But keep in mind that EVERYTHING GM does is half assed... So that makes my point all the more relevant.

True

[Brougham-Holiday]

The Astra failed here because it has no sedan/coupe body style, has no performance model (Red Line), and looks too odd for most. With the GTI/Rabbit/Jetta you have a larger model/body choice, more engines, and looks that aren't strange from most angles.

[Z-06]

The Astra failed here because it has no sedan/coupe body style, has no performance model (Red Line), and looks too odd for most. With the GTI/Rabbit/Jetta you have a larger model/body choice, more engines, and looks that aren't strange from most angles.

And non existent marketing.

[Northstar]

Well we can't save every North American brand, we are too busy saving Buick now, with all those wonderful EP IIs. The W car of thr 21st century,

Considering you did exactly the opposite of saving Saturn, you're "saving" of Buick is basically a bunch of fluff at the moment.

I don't think too many people want a repeat of the W car... perhaps you do, but not most.

[MyerShift]

For my two cents, if GM had brought the Astra sedan over as well as better and wider engine spread and options choices, it would have done better.

The Astra is one of the best if not THE best looking car in the segment.

Plus, having driven it, it is also the best driving, most expensive feeling small car available in the U.S. and I am not counting the A3 with it.

[longtooth]

I'd make the argument of "W" (also known as GM10) as being the last time GM attempted to capture the lightning-in-a-bottle it had found in '79 with the X-Car program and the success it had recently (at that time) tasted with the high volume Chevy Celebrity. Still see a number of Celebrities running around out there and the Pontiac sister-ship the 6000. The STE was a personal favorite of mine. Loved the piquant and flatulent sound of the STE exhaust-note.

The Fisher Body plant in New Jersey where I was employed at the time made encapsulated glass, seat-adjusters, tavern-styled door handles and a plethora of decorative and functional moldings for the slew of W-Cars which GM built in the late '80s and early '90s. By the time the 6th Generation W/Grand Prix and associates were coming into existence my home-plant was nearly shuttered. It survived as a temporary shelter/warehouse for the thousands upon thousands of electric seat adjusters built out in the waning days of it's life span.

GM's Fisher Body (Ternstedt Division) plant on Parkway Avenue in Ewing Township, New Jersey: Born 1938 Died 1998. Leaving behind many family members and a host of people in that Community to remember 'her'.

During World War II, the Plant became part of Eastern Aircraft and built the Grumman Avenger torpedo-bomber (ironically, an aircraft of this type was flown during that war by George Herbert Walker Bush, our 41st President) employing nearly 6000 souls at it's zenith.

Lest we forget, the Grand Prix (W body) was Motor Trend's COTY. So, in 21 model years since, see how much the Industry's evolved. Lots of friends and relatives had the 5th Generation Grand Prix. In spite of me. My brother-in-law traded-in his '86 T-topped beauty GP for the '89 coupe with a digi-dash (which failed 3 weeks out-of-the-box) and kept it for 8 years. It survives in the capable hands of his youngest child (replacement dash still functioning through 19 frigid Northern Pennsylvania near Wellsboro) Winters.

Now it is a question of whether GM and the Domestic Auto Industry survives.

[regfootball]

For my two cents, if GM had brought the Astra sedan over as well as better and wider engine spread and options choices, it would have done better.

The Astra is one of the best if not THE best looking car in the segment.

Plus, having driven it, it is also the best driving, most expensive feeling small car available in the U.S. and I am not counting the A3 with it.

see, you know it too.

the astra is worlds better than the cobalt and the cobalt is a good car itself. just that the cobalt has a few more engine options and better pricing and options packages.

i can't see the a3 being worth the extra dough.

the dealer i was talking to emailed me last week and said they added 0%/60 and 1.9/72 financing on the astra i had picked out on top of all the rebates. I was kind of upset to have had to tell him its harder to reason to buy a car when you are now jobless.......needless to say i would have pulled the trigger.

i really like the astra and don't really care if its not got high horsepower, the next model will correct that. for me now its a question of whether when i am gainfully employed again, do i wait for an 010 astra or find an even better deal on an 08? my fallback is used 08 taurus, which is a different animal.

i even decided i wanted the astra over the vw's. i like the VW's, but didn't want the 5 cylinder. optioning up a jetta or jetta sportwagen with the 4pot turbo and such gets really pricey. The new mazda 3 is possibly the only other compact i may have interest in, once the 010 fusion engine upgrades come on line and the new 010 taurus hits. I would be perfectly happy with an astra for awhile though. It falls under the 'you have to drive it against its competition' on the same day type of thing. The VW's were the only ones in my mind that had the same solidity and driving enjoyment in the compact class. i was willing to live with a little less hp in the astra compared to the vw.

[regfootball]

FWIW the catera was a great car too, except the motor sucked and its reliability overall was unacceptable. i wonder how may of you actually drove a catera. i considered buying one, but it had rwd, didn't want that here. then it turned out to be an unreliable car.

[Drew Dowdell]

FWIW the catera was a great car too, except the motor sucked and its reliability overall was unacceptable. i wonder how may of you actually drove a catera. i considered buying one, but it had rwd, didn't want that here. then it turned out to be an unreliable car.

In typical GM fashion, the reliability issues had been fixed in the final two years.

[regfootball]

In typical GM fashion, the reliability issues had been fixed in the final two years.

i had test driven the catera a couple of times. it felt like a really good drive. way better than the gm front drivers at the time. and the space utlization of that car was tremendous. the rear seat was spacious. i had just figured it was a bit shaky of a proposition at the time and i was leery of the motor.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I'd make the argument of "W" (also known as GM10) as being the last time GM attempted to capture the lightning-in-a-bottle it had found in '79 with the X-Car program and the success it had recently (at that time) tasted with the high volume Chevy Celebrity. Still see a number of Celebrities running around out there and the Pontiac sister-ship the 6000. The STE was a personal favorite of mine. Loved the piquant and flatulent sound of the STE exhaust-note.

The Fisher Body plant in New Jersey where I was employed at the time made encapsulated glass, seat-adjusters, tavern-styled door handles and a plethora of decorative and functional moldings for the slew of W-Cars which GM built in the late '80s and early '90s. By the time the 6th Generation W/Grand Prix and associates were coming into existence my home-plant was nearly shuttered. It survived as a temporary shelter/warehouse for the thousands upon thousands of electric seat adjusters built out in the waning days of it's life span.

GM's Fisher Body (Ternstedt Division) plant on Parkway Avenue in Ewing Township, New Jersey: Born 1938 Died 1998. Leaving behind many family members and a host of people in that Community to remember 'her'.

During World War II, the Plant became part of Eastern Aircraft and built the Grumman Avenger torpedo-bomber (ironically, an aircraft of this type was flown during that war by George Herbert Walker Bush, our 41st President) employing nearly 6000 souls at it's zenith.

Lest we forget, the Grand Prix (W body) was Motor Trend's COTY. So, in 21 model years since, see how much the Industry's evolved. Lots of friends and relatives had the 5th Generation Grand Prix. In spite of me. My brother-in-law traded-in his '86 T-topped beauty GP for the '89 coupe with a digi-dash (which failed 3 weeks out-of-the-box) and kept it for 8 years. It survives in the capable hands of his youngest child (replacement dash still functioning through 19 frigid Northern Pennsylvania near Wellsboro) Winters.

Now it is a question of whether GM and the Domestic Auto Industry survives.

Off topic, but I grew up in Ewing (resident from 1974 <o years old> to 1999 <24 years old>) and went to school with a ton of kids that had parent's employed at the GM plant. I attended the "final farewell" that GM opened to the public back in the summer of 1998, the only time I was ever inside of the plant (drove by that sucker millions of times though and knew many a retired resident that worked there). I was saddened to see the place demolished shortly after that, and haven't been by there in over two years.

[GMTruckGuy74]

In typical GM fashion, the reliability issues had been fixed in the final two years.

So, do 2000 and 2001 models make good used vehicles then? I've always liked the Catera myself, even had the opportunity to test-drive one brand new upon their intro in '97 (my first brand-new Cadillac test drive). I had a student that graduated two years ago get one from a family member as his first used car (I want to say it was a '98 model). He said it didn't give him any problems, but he only had it for 3 months before he graduated and I haven't seen him since. A teenager near my development that attends my step-son's high school drives a late '90s silver/gray one that I see often. Makes me still want one!

[PurdueGuy]

I always thought the cateras looked nice, but those 3.0L engines have a baaad reputation, not just for a few problems, but for being an absolute pain to work on. Same goes for the L-Series & early Vue with the same engine. The L-Series has some great characteristics, particularly being a VERY lightweight midsize car (just below or just above 3k lbs, depending on 4 or 6 cyl). If it weren't for electrical gremlins (seemingly also fixed toward the end of the model years) and the issues with the 3.0L, it would be a terrific car IMO (though not terribly exciting).

[Oracle of Delphi]

And just think, this is GME's 'most fabulous product'

It's not GME's fault that GMNA sends obsolete GME products to North America, lets see ...

The current Astra is in it's last year before a new one is on the scene, GMNA's response? Ship the old one over now.

Then we have the Opel Omega which was on high side of middle age in Europe at the time ...

GMNA's response, let's make it a Cadillac. Behold the Catera ...

Then Holden wants German engineering, behold the commodore sedan. Look familiar?

Then Holden takes Opel's platform and does some minor re-engineering to make the 2 door Monaro, and makes it a little wider, puts a corvette engine in it.

Then GMNA gets the bright idea to take the Monaro and badge re-engineer it into the Pontiac GTO, by this time the platform is so old, I think the German engineer that designed it had retired from Opel, not to mention that Americans had seen this platform back in 1997 as the Cadillac Catera, allbeit a 2 door now. So this was the second time around for many of them. I beleive this was part of the failure of the GTO, which even Lutz said was a failure because the platform was long in the tooth.

Opels failures? Not hardly, more like GMNA's failures for taking outdated products from Opel and trying to pass them off to the American market as new and improved, people aren't as dumb as GMNA thinks.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[longtooth]

No wonder you've ulcers.

[longtooth]

Off topic, but I grew up in Ewing (resident from 1974 <o years old> to 1999 <24 years old>) and went to school with a ton of kids that had parent's employed at the GM plant. I attended the "final farewell" that GM opened to the public back in the summer of 1998, the only time I was ever inside of the plant (drove by that sucker millions of times though and knew many a retired resident that worked there). I was saddened to see the place demolished shortly after that, and haven't been by there in over two years.

Life is about being off-topic.

I went with my Grand Mother that August to the farewell. She'd worked there as a stereotypical "Rosie the Riveter" passing the 'torch' to me in '75.

I went exploring off of the tour route and found a piece of tooling, a cut and pierce die, from a program that spanned over 30 years right where I'd left it in August 1995 almost exactly 3 years earlier. The people, that place was and remains a large part of me. When it was thriving it was American ingenuity and manufacturing prowess at it's finest.

Seems that I'm doomed to wander the Earth remembering this and shoving it in people's faces all of the time.

Forgive me please.

[SAmadei]

I always thought the cateras looked nice, but those 3.0L engines have a baaad reputation, not just for a few problems, but for being an absolute pain to work on. Same goes for the L-Series & early Vue with the same engine. The L-Series has some great characteristics, particularly being a VERY lightweight midsize car (just below or just above 3k lbs, depending on 4 or 6 cyl). If it weren't for electrical gremlins (seemingly also fixed toward the end of the model years) and the issues with the 3.0L, it would be a terrific car IMO (though not terribly exciting).

The original Catera was too rounded and the taillight panel looked like a Chrysler product from the '90s. Say what you will about the '04-'06 GTO... at least the final product was closer to being a Pontiac than the Catera was to being a Cadillac. Sure the GTO could have been better... much better... but the Catera was awful in trying to pass itself off as a Caddy.

[daves87rs]

Almost no Astras here..

[Z-06]

Almost no Astras here..

And you are in Detroit country.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The original Catera was too rounded and the taillight panel looked like a Chrysler product from the '90s. Say what you will about the '04-'06 GTO... at least the final product was closer to being a Pontiac than the Catera was to being a Cadillac. Sure the GTO could have been better... much better... but the Catera was awful in trying to pass itself off as a Caddy.

Not only that, but the GTO platform was probably the most solid out of any other GM sold here, excluding maybe Sigma. They were failures due to price, and styling. Not because their platform wasn't solid.

The Epsilon Malibus aren't solid, my parents own one. Yet they sold 20k a month at one point. But the GTO is a failure because of an old platform? I'm sure the W-body is more ancient by a few decades, but I don't see that being called a failure.

[smk4565]

GM just needs to stop bringing over cars from other countries thinking they will work here. These cars aren't designed or tailored to the American market, and it isn't like the Opel Omega had an S-class type reputation. The Catera, GTO, G8 and Astra were all duds, yet they keep remaking the same mistake. Rebadging in the 80s and 90s killed GM, yet in the 2000s, they did the GMT360 clones, the Uplander/Montana/Relay/Terrazza, G3/Aveo, G5/Cobalt, Torrent/Equinox, Chevy/GMC, etc. I don't get why GM keeps doing the same thing, expecting a different result.

[daves87rs]

And you are in Detroit country.

Yep.

Most Saturns I see around here are Auras...and that's only beacuse of the good lease deals....

Though my buddy likes his 07 Aura XR.

[daves87rs]

GM just needs to stop bringing over cars from other countries thinking they will work here. These cars aren't designed or tailored to the American market, and it isn't like the Opel Omega had an S-class type reputation. The Catera, GTO, G8 and Astra were all duds, yet they keep remaking the same mistake. Rebadging in the 80s and 90s killed GM, yet in the 2000s, they did the GMT360 clones, the Uplander/Montana/Relay/Terrazza, G3/Aveo, G5/Cobalt, Torrent/Equinox, Chevy/GMC, etc. I don't get why GM keeps doing the same thing, expecting a different result.

One of the main reasons GM is in this position....then you have to give it away...

[Brougham-Holiday]

Autoline Detroit's daily You tube show Autoline Daily reported today that the Astra was going away and that production of the Vue 2 mode has been cut.

[Drew Dowdell]

So, do 2000 and 2001 models make good used vehicles then? I've always liked the Catera myself, even had the opportunity to test-drive one brand new upon their intro in '97 (my first brand-new Cadillac test drive). I had a student that graduated two years ago get one from a family member as his first used car (I want to say it was a '98 model). He said it didn't give him any problems, but he only had it for 3 months before he graduated and I haven't seen him since. A teenager near my development that attends my step-son's high school drives a late '90s silver/gray one that I see often. Makes me still want one!

Yes they do. By then the bugs had been worked out. There were engine sensor and pulley changes that made it by then. The engine was also detuned and used in the Saturn LS starting in 2000.

[The O.C.]

FWIW the catera was a great car too, except the motor sucked and its reliability overall was unacceptable. i wonder how may of you actually drove a catera. i considered buying one, but it had rwd, didn't want that here. then it turned out to be an unreliable car.

I'll tell you what.....I recently drove a Catera.....one we took in on trade with only 30,000 miles on it.

Originally I was intrigued by the Catera.....when getting into one recently, I was shocked how soft and floaty GM tuned that European suspension. It almost felt soft and floaty like a modern-day DTS....! Certainly not the tautly suspended feel I would have expected from a European chassis....

I think they just dumbed-down the European-ness of the Catera way too much......like they were trying to attract Deville shoppers to the Catera, instead of trying to attract those very European car fans that like the way BMWs and Mercedes Benzs drive.

[The O.C.]

GM just needs to stop bringing over cars from other countries thinking they will work here. These cars aren't designed or tailored to the American market.

Why do we always refer to GM "designing" or "tailoring" new products for the "American" market?

I think the "American market" is showing GM with their pocketbooks that the very products they desire are the ones designed for the European market......

To the best of my knowledge, other than some powertrain options (i.e.....not offering many 4-cyl engines and most diesels), I don't see BMW, Mercedes, or Audi significantly altering the product they do bring over here in terms of chassis, suspension, or features.....

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll tell you what.....I recently drove a Catera.....one we took in on trade with only 30,000 miles on it.

Originally I was intrigued by the Catera.....when getting into one recently, I was shocked how soft and floaty GM tuned that European suspension. It almost felt soft and floaty like a modern-day DTS....! Certainly not the tautly suspended feel I would have expected from a European chassis....

I think they just dumbed-down the European-ness of the Catera way too much......like they were trying to attract Deville shoppers to the Catera, instead of trying to attract those very European car fans that like the way BMWs and Mercedes Benzs drive.

What year was it? The 2000s and 2001s were firmed up a lot.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why do we always refer to GM "designing" or "tailoring" new products for the "American" market?

I think the "American market" is showing GM with their pocketbooks that the very products they desire are the ones designed for the European market......

To the best of my knowledge, other than some powertrain options (i.e.....not offering many 4-cyl engines and most diesels), I don't see BMW, Mercedes, or Audi significantly altering the product they do bring over here in terms of chassis, suspension, or features.....

Sure they do. They don't bring over the cloth seat, hand crank window 3-series. They don't bring over the FWD A8.

I'm sure there is more. But nearly all of the "premium" Euros are available over there in non-premium form. E-class is one of the most common taxis I see in germany.

[The O.C.]

What year was it? The 2000s and 2001s were firmed up a lot.

I don't remember.....but I do remember it was NOT the "Sport" model that was introduced somewhere along the line.

But even so, take today's CTS......even the base suspension (FE1) with the 17-inch wheels still has a nicely-controlled, taut ride. You don't necessarily feel compromised because you didn't get one of the two 18-inch wheel performance packages.

Used to be up until very recently that GM vehicles with base suspension packages were not very enjoyable to ride in and drive (i.e.....Buick's used to ALWAYS need the "Gran Touring Suspension" option to be anywhere decent to drive.) And I'm not talking about canyon-carving....I'm talking about simply having a somewhat decently-controlled ride with decently crisp responses.

[The O.C.]

Sure they do. They don't bring over the cloth seat, hand crank window 3-series. They don't bring over the FWD A8.

I'm sure there is more. But nearly all of the "premium" Euros are available over there in non-premium form. E-class is one of the most common taxis I see in germany.

Go drive them......regardless of features, the cars themselves simply aren't dumbed-down. A BMW in Europe rides and drives pretty much, if not exactly, like it does here.

That's my point.

[Northstar]

Go drive them......regardless of features, the cars themselves simply aren't dumbed-down. A BMW in Europe rides and drives pretty much, if not exactly, like it does here.

That's my point.

I would guess that if BMW imported dumbed-down 3-Series they would sell like hotcakes to people who can't afford the ones with all the features, but I suppose the appeal of the higher priced models may drop if that were the case.

[Oracle of Delphi]

No wonder you've ulcers.

Are you referring to my Husband of the Year in my sig?

[smk4565]

I don't think they should dumb down cars, but they should fit the American market if they are sold here. For example, the GTO was not available with a sunroof, when almost every $30k+ car has one as an option at least, many have that standard. GM designs cars for specific regions, like the Impala for the USA, Astra for Europe, G8/Commodore for Australia. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc design their cars to work everywhere in the world with subtle changes to fit a market. Such as options or equipment or a 2 liter diesel for the European 3-series.

[The O.C.]

GM designs cars for specific regions, like the Impala for the USA, Astra for Europe, G8/Commodore for Australia. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc design their cars to work everywhere in the world with subtle changes to fit a market.

Exactly my point. (Take fleet sales out.....) GM designs the Impala for the USA, but more and more people are walking away from Impala-type vehicles for the more modern Asian and European designs.

Even the new Malibu is a dramatic departure from typical GM fare.......

[fightingbee]

Used to be up until very recently that GM vehicles with base suspension packages were not very enjoyable to ride in and drive (i.e.....Buick's used to ALWAYS need the "Gran Touring Suspension" option to be anywhere decent to drive.) And I'm not talking about canyon-carving....I'm talking about simply having a somewhat decently-controlled ride with decently crisp responses.

You're not alone there. My parents Regal GS was chosen for that reason, and my father has commented before that it is still a just a tad wallowy at times for the "sporty" Buick @ the time. :AH-HA_wink:

[wildcat]

My parents Regal GS

Please, no 1997 or thereabouts past anecdotes. Buick no longer makes a Regal or a GS. Chevrolet ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. Buick ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. Cadillac ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. I'M not the same as I was 10.... there's more of me to love

[Brougham-Holiday]

Please, no 1997 or thereabouts past anecdotes. Buick no longer makes a Regal or a GS. Chevrolet ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. Buick ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. Cadillac ISN'T the same as it was 10 years ago. I'M not the same as I was 10.... there's more of me to love

Thats both good and bad.

I fear that some of the changes at GM are being made because they think they know what we want when they really don't. Look at the Buick LeSabre vs the Buick Lucerne. The LeSabre had higher sales figures, and a loyal customer base. GM told us that we don't like the name LeSabre so they changed it. My point here is that change isn't always good. Almost anyone on the street can tell you what a Cadillac deVille is, but what is a Cadillac DTS.

GM doesn't need revolutionary change, what they need is to listen to customers.

GM:

Why can't I buy an Astra sedan?

Why can't I order fog lights on any Lucerne except the Super?

Why does the G8 have the most fake looking fake hood scoops known to man?

Why doesn't Chevy or Buick or Saturn offer a mid-sized coupe?

Why can't I get a more powerful engine in the G5 when the Cobalt has one?

To tie this all together: The Astra is a perfect example of GM thinking they know what we want. The 5 door looks awkward, there is no engine to compete with a GTI or Civic Si, and they only come has hatchbacks. As usual GM got it 80% right, good enough so it looks like they are trying, but they still missed the target.

More importantly why does GM have 3 compact cars when none sell as well as they should?

[wildcat]

I fear that some of the changes at GM are being made because they think they know what we want when they really don't. . . . they still missed the target.

You're right, the LeSabre was the top-selling large car for however-many years. Until they let it get stale.

And they threw away all the quality awards that the Regal earned by dropping it. But I feel that going back to the name makes it look like you're admitting a mistake. The Regal, to me, is over and done with. Does GM admit mistakes? What about Ford and the Taurus and Taurus X

I agree, GM needs to listen to their customers, absolutely.

Why in the world (other than having no marketing money) would GM leave the LaCrosse name on an all-new platform that seems to be quite a step forward? The "W" body LaCrosse was no world-beater. Especially with having LaCrosse and Allure, no consistency. And everyone's comments I read or heard asked that they use the Invicta name. Why oh why, GM?

A "volatile" market? GM can't stick with a decision, for better or worse?

And, Brougham-Holiday, you've asked some great questions. Would they respond with the truth? Would we accept the truth?

[Brougham-Holiday]

Ford did the right thing with the Taurus though, they realized they made an error, brought the name back and now the name will be one the beautiful new flagship of Ford. Not only did they save the Taurus name (which should help keep customers) but also build the brand image by moving Taurus up market.

Would be very nice of GM to re-do the Lucerne asap and bring back the LeSabre name. Make the top level, V8 model....you guessed it Park Avenue. Both names that have customer loyalty and good reliability backgrounds.

[regfootball]

What year was it? The 2000s and 2001s were firmed up a lot.

i cant recall what i drove but i do know i had intended to get a sport package version with the dash revisions and all of that. which maybe included sport suspension.

[SAmadei]

Not only that, but the GTO platform was probably the most solid out of any other GM sold here, excluding maybe Sigma. They were failures due to price, and styling. Not because their platform wasn't solid.

The GTO was not a sales failure. It sold between 80% and 90% of the production cap GM set for it. I don't consider the $30K pricetag to be out of sync when the slower Trans Am was $35K.

It was a styling failure, as it didn't win over the mindsets of the old timers or the young people.

GM just needs to stop bringing over cars from other countries thinking they will work here. These cars aren't designed or tailored to the American market, and it isn't like the Opel Omega had an S-class type reputation. The Catera, GTO, G8 and Astra were all duds, yet they keep remaking the same mistake.

GM's best stuff is not sold in this country... except the G8. People have vocally BEGGED GM to import the post '97 Caprice into this country.

OTOH, the Astra has styling that makes Citroen's look good to Americans. GME's cars aren't going to fly here as Saturns, Opels, Buicks or Chevies.

I think the "American market" is showing GM with their pocketbooks that the very products they desire are the ones designed for the European market......

Are the pickup trucks and SUVs or the Accords and Camrys designed for the European market?

[jlgolden]

I like the overall look of the Astra, the materials, fit/finish...solid door & handle operation... are wonderful... but performance is weak, and without generous discounts, it's not a particularly good dollar value.

AND...I'll go back to my biggest gripes about the Astra...those two which eliminated this car from my buddy's shopping list in August: the stupid, inexcusable omission of an i-pod input jack and no XM sat radio.

Now with the entire Saturn brand image and future uncertain, the Astra is a poorer value, despite discounts.

Here's why:

If Saturn dealers evaporate in 4 years, will and Chevy or Buick dealers want to service the "oddball" European Astra? It could mean investing in parts inventory, software for diagnostics, tech training, etc. Kinda like when Merkur went away, and Ford dealers loathed dealing with the quirks of any Scorpio or XR4Ti that came in for repair.

Edited January 31, 2009 by jlgolden