Obama Looks to give States the rights to set Emissions and Mileage Standards

[PurdueGuy]

You missed my point..

If they can get 50 states to agree on speed limits how are we to get them to agree to just two standards for emissions.

State opinion is as varied as it is here on this web site.

If the goverment want to imporve thing with emissions they xould go into a program similar to the space program and set goals of developing realistic power plants that could be used in normal use.

Better to put money into developing new technology in the private sector vs a bunch of public busy work that leads to nothing but a paved road only.

The moon program is still giving today based on what we learned and expanded from it. It was not the fact we went to the moon that was important but what we learned by getting their.

It's not a valid comparison - the gov't isn't TRYING to get states to agree on a speed limit standard. They have a system in place in which the speed limit standard is used to set the amount of federal funding a state gets for roads. Therefore states that have need to build lots of new roads generally have lower speed limits, whereas the ones that do not need lots of new roads have higher speed limits. There isn't any strong reason, and there isn't any big movement to get states to agree on a speed limit standard.

What would be the purpose of standardizing a national speed limit? Put speed limiters on cars so they can't speed? (Except that they still can in any areas that aren't at the max speed limit, plus being able to speed in a tight situation can help avoid an accident...)

Also, our gov't doesn't have the money to fund a "moon landing" type project for emissions, and it's not fair to force that upon the private sector, which considering the economic status of our country would simply further destroy our remaining businesses.

Edited January 26, 2009 by PurdueGuy

[Robert Hall]

Uhh because it is. He has an extreme left agenda and many people bought all his bull$h! hook line and sink 'er.

I'd rather have a modern, progressive 'left agenda' than the archaic, right-wing conservative bible-thumper gun-nut neocon agenda we had the last 8 years...

[gm4life]

I'd rather have a modern, progressive 'left agenda' than the archaic, right-wing conservative bible-thumper gun-nut neocon agenda we had the last 8 years...

Yeah I love words like progressive because the progressive movement wants to take away all the freedoms that make our country great. If this happens it is ALL OBAMA'S FAULT, just like the left said everything was BUSH'S fault. Sorry time for pay-back.

[Robert Hall]

Yeah I love words like progressive because the progressive movement wants to take away all the freedoms that make our country great. If this happens it is ALL OBAMA'S FAULT, just like the left said everything was BUSH'S fault. Sorry time for pay-back.

Crawl back under your rock, come back in 4 years and complain.

[gm4life]

Crawl back under your rock, come back in 4 years and complain.

Good Guy with politics I don't even come close to agreeing with.

[Drew Dowdell]

Uhh because it is. He has an extreme left agenda and many people bought all his bull$h! hook line and sink 'er. They didn't care what he said it was how he said and making people feel good in hard times isn't as easy thing and B.H.O did just that. You ain't seen nothing yet, the last 7 years have been safe no attacks on America and a good economy for most of that time. At least it was until Barney Frank forced banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford them. If Obama passes this it is another gift to republican party. Along with various other things. He will have just four years, I already think he is a jerk a way bigger jerk than Bush could ever have been thought of. In one hand he'll hand the industry the dough and strangle them with cafe and emissions in the other.

Let's not confuse asset bubbles with economic growth. If unemployment was figured today as it was in 1929, the rate would be 17.5%. Aren't you glad they changed the way they count?

The banks were more than willing to give these loans and through deregulation, hide them but book them as income. Some of these banks were booking profits on interest not even billed yet. In December Merrill Lynch managed to lose $15 billion. Maybe it was all in the wrist, as they marked bad loans to market values. Maybe a lot of it was CDS losses. Maybe, just maybe, they were simply god-awful at playing the stock market game.

The incoming US intelligence chief says that "Torture is not moral, is not legal, is not effective." He also is going to stop the unlawful surveillance of Americans. Hours after taking office, President Obama ordered a halt to the show trials at Guantanamo, Guantanamo is to be closed within a year and the CIA directed end 'enhanced' interrogations. Could we also do away with Homemade Security or at least persuade it that Americans have rights again? <sarcasm>The US is becoming a nation of weak-kneed constitution readers.</sarcasm>

Last I checked, they were still selling cars in California. I don't think any state will go stricter than them. We'll be ok. You might not be able to buy the G8 you weren't going to buy anyway... but we'll be ok.

Let us be the land of the brave again, not the fortress of the fearful.

[Drew Dowdell]

He is no Reagan never will be. Just now people are staring to realize what they voted for, I find it funny and sad while I am angry at the same time.

Since you added this after my last post.

Obama: More Political Capital Than Reagan?

[gm4life]

I totally disagree Olds, I am scared to give them to much power over me and what I can buy. Lets just hope no one pushes it further than that. You know as well as I this will cripple the industry including Toyota. I just hope it doesn't happen. But it prolly will and the states will get in a fight over who is the most green. Killing any great cars. Once again another great person with politics I can never agree with.

I hope somebody speaks out to this madness.

Also if D.C. makes rules like this Obama should turn in his Cadillac Fleet on medium duty truck platforms and get a hybrid too, if he wants this so bad. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited January 26, 2009 by gm4life

[Drew Dowdell]

Yeah I love words like progressive because the progressive movement wants to take away all the freedoms that make our country great. If this happens it is ALL OBAMA'S FAULT, just like the left said everything was BUSH'S fault. Sorry time for pay-back.

In his first week has restored freedoms that Bush took away. He restored the right to privacy. He restored the right to trial by jury. He restored the right to challenge your imprisonment. He restored the right to know what your government is doing.

What freedom are you looking for.... the freedom to drive a G8 GXP? Sorry, that one kind of pales in comparison to freedom to privacy.

[Drew Dowdell]

Also if D.C. makes rules like this Obama should turn in his Cadillac Fleet on medium duty truck platforms and get a hybrid too, if he wants this so bad. :AH-HA_wink:

Our resident spy photographer has informed us that it's a diesel.

[Intrepidation]

I don't mind the idea of higher standards, but it should be one higher standard, not 50, as someone has said.

The other problem is that the automakers are trying to stay alive as it is. If the government is planning to fund them even more money than the $25 billion they were promised and help them achieve it like Japan does for its automakers then fine.

[hyperv6]

It's not a valid comparison - the gov't isn't TRYING to get states to agree on a speed limit standard. They have a system in place in which the speed limit standard is used to set the amount of federal funding a state gets for roads. Therefore states that have need to build lots of new roads generally have lower speed limits, whereas the ones that do not need lots of new roads have higher speed limits. There isn't any strong reason, and there isn't any big movement to get states to agree on a speed limit standard.

What would be the purpose of standardizing a national speed limit? Put speed limiters on cars so they can't speed? (Except that they still can in any areas that aren't at the max speed limit, plus being able to speed in a tight situation can help avoid an accident...)

Also, our gov't doesn't have the money to fund a "moon landing" type project for emissions, and it's not fair to force that upon the private sector, which considering the economic status of our country would simply further destroy our remaining businesses.

I was just giving an example that most states can agree on much Speed, drunk driver leverls, emission or what ever. I only used speed as an example of non agreement so don't read so deep into this. Use teddy bears as example ifr you like what ever it was just to show non agreement on the state level.

Also my point was to take some of the Trillion Dollars they want to pump up the economy and use it to fund projects in developing drivetrains and power plants Gas, electric or what ever to improve our tech nology. I would rather spend some of this money vs wasting it on Pork as it will go now.

The private sector would get the goverment money to develop these programs and use the technology in new products. This is what happened in the space program with Boeing in the planes and the computer industry.

[hyperv6]

In his first week has restored freedoms that Bush took away. He restored the right to privacy. He restored the right to trial by jury. He restored the right to challenge your imprisonment. He restored the right to know what your government is doing.

What freedom are you looking for.... the freedom to drive a G8 GXP? Sorry, that one kind of pales in comparison to freedom to privacy.

How many Gitmo people you want on your block?

[Robert Hall]

How many Gitmo people you want on your block?

They can just put them in the Super Max prison down in Florence... Teddy K is there.

[Drew Dowdell]

How many Gitmo people you want on your block?

They should have been given a trial 6 years ago. If Bush hadn't F-ed that one up we wouldn't be in this mess. Additionally, a LOT of those people were innocent and have been released even though we held them for years.

They'll most likely end up at Levenworth, but at least we won't be torturers any longer.

[Intrepidation]

I'm glad he closed Guantanamo Bay and prisons like it. Torturing prisoners regardless of what they have done goes against everything this country stands for. If you think it's ok maybe you should move to China, where I bet they don't hold the same standards we do for prisoners.

[toesuf94]

How anyone on this site can sit here and claim that what the government is doing to the very industry you claim to love is a good thing - is really beyond me. If you support this, then you do NOT support the very industry or the products it produces at all. This bill will hinder the U.S. Auto industry at a time when declining sales put it in a position of no cash to comply.

And Oldsmoboi, you talk about the new inteligence chief being against torture to known and suspected terrorists captured on the battlefield as a good thing, or as I quote: "The incoming US intelligence chief says that "Torture is not moral, is not legal, is not effective." He also is going to stop the unlawful surveillance of Americans. Hours after taking office, President Obama ordered a halt to the show trials at Guantanamo, Guantanamo is to be closed within a year and the CIA directed end 'enhanced' interrogations. Could we also do away with Homemade Security or at least persuade it that Americans have rights again? <sarcasm>The US is becoming a nation of weak-kneed constitution readers.</sarcasm>"

I tell you what, we should treat our prisoners with the same respect that they have shown Americans captured over there: CUT THEIR HEADS OFF AND THROW THEM IN A DITCH! I agree - Close GITMO and lets end these trials and torture (three squares a day and prayer time - complete with a free copy of the hate book Quaran compliments of the US Taxpayer - TORTURE!!!) and let's just behead the captured right there on the field. And all of our troops will be issued a black ski mask and name patch covers to prevent getting sued.

[Intrepidation]

Giving people a fair trial and not torturing them are things that separates us from them. It's a big part of what makes us better than them. If we give that up then how are we better? You guys should try looking p the founding principles of this country.

[Drew Dowdell]

I tell you what, we should treat our prisoners with the same respect that they have shown Americans captured over there:

No. Do you know why? Because we're Americans and we are better than that.

There was a time when this country stood for truth and justice.

You can take your Babylonian "eye for an eye" ideals and shove them where they belong. I'll stick with the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Magna Carta.

[GXT]

Even the regular four-cylinder Malibu (22/33 mpg w/ EPA consumer figures) averages 36 mpg in CAFE-speak. What I'm saying is that it's not as difficult as it seems.

How is that calculated? I assumed they took each vehicles average MPG and weighted it by the sales volume.

If GM were forced to do so, I'm sure they can produce low-budget, BAS II light-hybrids en masse. Start-stop technology, LRR tires, and tall final drive ratios are fairly inexpensive.

Even cars like the Cruze should help out.

A big part of the problem is that they have wasted so much R&D on the Volt (which is too niche to matter) instead of doing something timely. They started running commercials for the Volt in 2007 and yet they won't have a competitive small car until 2010 or 2011. Now they have to argue that it is too expensive to be fuel efficient when they have apparently spent one billion+ dollars on the Volt.

[gm4life]

How many Gitmo people you want on your block?

Amen.

[Drew Dowdell]

Amen.

an for you too....

[Intrepidation]

I love how the same people who bitch about socialism and standing for America think it's ok to disregard our most important ideals. That's called hypocrisy guys, and it disgusts me.

[siegen]

This will be a loooooooong, painful, 4 years.

That's what she said.

The last 8 were pretty long and painful.

And...... That's what she said.

/My contribution to this thread.

[gm4life]

Gitmo was a good place for those evil people, and water boarding was okay if it saved people. Then again I am traditional American, I want less goverment, I go to church every Sunday, I drive American cars, and I want a safe country and would rather be on the offensive rather than the defensive. I want the consumers to drive the market i.e. demand what kind of cars they want not the goverment telling them with CAFE and all of Obama's new treats to kill the domestic auto industry. The emission controls alone would be a huge cost along with the state by state race to be the most green and screw the automakers. Yeah that is change.

[GXT]

In his first week has restored freedoms that Bush took away. He restored the right to privacy. He restored the right to trial by jury. He restored the right to challenge your imprisonment. He restored the right to know what your government is doing.

What freedom are you looking for.... the freedom to drive a G8 GXP? Sorry, that one kind of pales in comparison to freedom to privacy.

+1

It is just nice to see a president taking sane actions based on reason. I'd almost forgotten what it was like after so many years of Bush being "The Decider".

[gm4life]

I love how the same people who bitch about socialism and standing for America think it's ok to disregard our most important ideals. That's called hypocrisy guys, and it disgusts me.

Different views.

[toesuf94]

No. Do you know why? Because we're Americans and we are better than that.

There was a time when this country stood for truth and justice.

You can take your Babylonian "eye for an eye" ideals and shove them where they belong. I'll stick with the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and Magna Carta.

they are not my ideals...they are THEIR ideals. Where in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Magna Carta is the dealing of enemy combatants covered? I have read them. I believe the document you NEED TO READ is the Geneva Convention, which our enemies seem to have not read either. So all of you bitching over how these poor detainies have been captured and tortured with waterboarding or scare tactics (along with room and board and prayer time and meals prepared according to Muslim law) - while they treat any person they capture with severe prejedice...a sword and a ski mask no meal, no prayer time...just a video of them dying to be posted on the net while their body is thrown in a ditch... Yeah, seems fair to me.

So you can take your near sighted, Liberal ideals and shove them where THEY belong. Go enjoy a bottle of mountain dew...it will have more displacement than your next car.

Edited January 26, 2009 by toesuf94

[gm4life]

In his first week has restored freedoms that Bush took away. He restored the right to privacy. He restored the right to trial by jury. He restored the right to challenge your imprisonment. He restored the right to know what your government is doing.

What freedom are you looking for.... the freedom to drive a G8 GXP? Sorry, that one kind of pales in comparison to freedom to privacy.

No is he putting are country at risk. I love how liberals want less rights for Americans and legal citizens. In the same sentance they want to give people in Gitmo the same rights as all Americans along with people the jump across the boarder that is total bull&#036;h&#33;. Freedom of privacy, if it keeps our country safe go for it. I want the freedom to drive, what I want and yes, no that doesn't fail in comparison that is very important as well. Socialism hear we come and being free to buy what we want and being tough on crimals is one of the many reasons that made America so great. We will loose are greatness if this kind of stuff happend and become more like whom, oh yeah those silly French people. :AH-HA_wink:

Bush actually gave this country freedom and keep this country free from terror for 7 years, Obama is willing to put politics before our countries safety that is fine. Because in four years the republicans will have been given the best gift of all a chance without all these people just longing for change for changes sake. Bush kept our country safe and screwed some things up but he pushed a very traditional agenda something I support. What is the matter with the old fashioned way anyways.

Edited January 26, 2009 by gm4life

[Drew Dowdell]

they are not my ideals...they are THEIR ideals. Where in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Magna Carta is the dealing of enemy combatants covered? I have read them. I believe the document you NEED TO READ is the Geneva Convention, which our enemies seem to have not read either. So all of you bitching over how these poor detainies have been captured and tortured with waterboarding or scare tactics (along with room and board and prayer time and meals prepared according to Muslim law) - while they treat any person they capture with severe prejedice...a sword and a ski mask no meal, no prayer time...just a video of them dying to be posted on the net while their body is thrown in a ditch... Yeah, seems fair to me.

So you can take your near sighted, Liberal ideals and shove them where THEY belong. Go enjoy a bottle of mountain dew...it will have more displacement than your next car.

Two words: Due Process

In WWII should we have been rounding up ALL Germans and gassing them? Should we have gassed all the Japanese?

We were STILL torturing people in 2008! What possible amount of information could we hope to get out of someone who has been in confinement for 7 years?!

We are NOT the Spanish Inquisition. We are NOT the Nazis. We are NOT the Stalinists. Most importantly, we are NOT Muslim extremists.

[gm4life]

they are not my ideals...they are THEIR ideals. Where in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Magna Carta is the dealing of enemy combatants covered? I have read them. I believe the document you NEED TO READ is the Geneva Convention, which our enemies seem to have not read either. So all of you bitching over how these poor detainies have been captured and tortured with waterboarding or scare tactics (along with room and board and prayer time and meals prepared according to Muslim law) - while they treat any person they capture with severe prejedice...a sword and a ski mask no meal, no prayer time...just a video of them dying to be posted on the net while their body is thrown in a ditch... Yeah, seems fair to me.

So you can take your near sighted, Liberal ideals and shove them where THEY belong. Go enjoy a bottle of mountain dew...it will have more displacement than your next car.

Toe you got this right. Everyone who voted for Obama forgets the other 48% of the non-kool-aid drinkers in this country didn't vote for him. Not everyone loves him or his liberal ideals and views of goverment.

Edited January 26, 2009 by gm4life

[gm4life]

Two words: Due Process

In WWII should we have been rounding up ALL Germans and gassing them? Should we have gassed all the Japanese?

We were STILL torturing people in 2008! What possible amount of information could we hope to get out of someone who has been in confinement for 7 years?!

We are NOT the Spanish Inquisition. We are NOT the Nazis. We are NOT the Stalinists. Most importantly, we are NOT Muslim extremists.

This love everyone policy seems good on paper but in real life, sorry it doesn't work. We have been safe for seven years because of this and being tough on terror not being "open" and "kind". No we are American's and I fully support everything we have done to keep this country safe.

[Drew Dowdell]

No is he putting are country at risk. I love how liberals want less rights for Americans and legal citizens. In the same sentance they want to give people in Gitmo the same rights as all Americans along with people the jump across the boarder that is total bull&#036;h&#33;. Freedom of privacy, if it keeps our country safe go for it. I want the freedom to drive, what I want and yes, no that doesn't fail in comparison that is very important as well. Socialism hear we come and being free to buy what we want and being tough on crimals is one of the many reasons that made America so great. We will loose are greatness if this kind of stuff happend and beocme more like whom, oh yeah those silly French people. :AH-HA_wink:

Bush actually gave this country freedom and keep this country free from terror for 7 years, Obama is willing to put politics before our countries safety that is fine. Because if four years the republicans will have been given the best gift of all a chance without all these people just longing for change for changes sake. Bush kept our country safe and screwed some things up but he pushed a very traditional agenda something I support. What is the matter with the old fashioned way anyways.

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

You are throwing out core ideas that this country was founded on. Hardly "Traditional American" at all.

Obama took an oath to :

the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Let that sink in for a moment. He didn't swear an oath to protect you. His ultimate responsibility is to the Constitution. By reversing Bush's policies he has done just that.

[Drew Dowdell]

Not everyone loves him or his liberal ideals and views of goverment.

L.O.L.

The whole purpose of this thread is that Obama gave control BACK TO THE FREAKING STATES! THAT IS A CONSERVATIVE IDEAL!

[GXT]

Amen.

Looks like Canada will be taking one back. 15 years old at the time of imprisonment. Nearly shot dead by the US. Apparently guilty of killing a US soldier with a grenade (I guess when the US goes to war you aren't allowed to fight back). No meaningful evidence. Confession extracted via torture.

I don't know if he was guilty of anything, but thanks to the US' methods I think he is guaranteed to go free.

[Robert Hall]

. Bush kept our country safe and screwed some things up but he pushed a very traditional agenda something I support. What is the matter with the old fashioned way anyways.

Old fashioned is old. Conservatism belongs in the past...it has no place in the modern world (or at least contain it to the red states). 'Traditional agenda' is just code words for the racism, intolerance, and the bigotry the right wingers stand for.

[Drew Dowdell]

This love everyone policy seems good on paper but in real life, sorry it doesn't work. We have been safe for seven years because of this and being tough on terror not being "open" and "kind". No we are American's and I fully support everything we have done to keep this country safe.

I said nothing of being "kind". We should crush those who attack us with the swiftest and greatest of force.... but that would have meant concentrating on Afghanistan rather than Iraq.

We should, however, still respect our own laws and process. By throwing out those ideals we hold dear we become no better than the terrorists.

[gm4life]

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

You are throwing out core ideas that this country was founded on. Hardly "Traditional American" at all.

Obama took an oath to :

Let that sink in for a moment. He didn't swear an oath to protect you. His ultimate responsibility is to the Constitution. By reversing Bush's policies he has done just that.

No he has put our country at risk. Traditional American's what to be safe it is not just crazy gun owning republicans. You can give someone civil treatment and not cuddle them. The reason we were so safe is because of the polices Obama just overturned, it sends the terror groups the wrong messeage hit us while were down. Obama is a true politican, and will do anything to try please his left wing looney base and the more moderate and traditional voters who help push him up and over. I can't stand the man and now he wants to take away my freedom to drive a 8 cylinder RWD car he can stick up his a$$. The really funny part is Obama owned a 300C with a 5.7L Hemi and that car wouldn't even come close to meeting his lofty and expensive to the consumer and company to raise fuel economy. Bush stood by his values and did so with less than a 30% approval rating I give him credit for sticking to his guns. Obama will walk the party line and do whatever he needs to do for political gain, recall Rev. Wright.

[gm4life]

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.

You are throwing out core ideas that this country was founded on. Hardly "Traditional American" at all.

Obama took an oath to :

Let that sink in for a moment. He didn't swear an oath to protect you. His ultimate responsibility is to the Constitution. By reversing Bush's policies he has done just that.

No he has put our country at risk. Traditional American's what to be safe it is not just crazy gun owning republicans. You can give someone civil treatment and not cuddle them. The reason we were so safe is because of the polices Obama just overturned, it sends the terror groups the wrong messeage hit us while were down. Obama is a true politican, and will do anything to try please his left wing looney base and the more moderate and traditional voters who help push him up and over. I can't stand the man and now he wants to take away my freedom to drive a 8 cylinder RWD car he can stick up his a$$. The really funny part is Obama owned a 300C with a 5.7L Hemi and that car wouldn't even come close to meeting his lofty and expensive to the consumer and company to raise fuel economy. Bush stood by his values and did so with less than a 30% approval rating I give him credit for sticking to his guns. Obama will walk the party line and do whatever he needs to do for political gain, recall Rev. Wright.

[gm4life]

I said nothing of being "kind". We should crush those who attack us with the swiftest and greatest of force.... but that would have meant concentrating on Afghanistan rather than Iraq.

We should, however, still respect our own laws and process. By throwing out those ideals we hold dear we become no better than the terrorists.

Whoa you just sounded like a republican.

[Robert Hall]

I said nothing of being "kind". We should crush those who attack us with the swiftest and greatest of force.... but that would have meant concentrating on Afghanistan rather than Iraq.

We should, however, still respect our own laws and process. By throwing out those ideals we hold dear we become no better than the terrorists.

Agreed. Problem is, the conservatives don't respect our own laws and ideals. They sold out to the corporations and the religious zealots long ago. The conservative 'traditional values' types are the most hypocritical, intolerant people I've ever met.

[regfootball]

Thank you...well said.

These states are completely bankrupt and do not know how to manage their money, yet are going to mandate emission standards and MPG standards for all the cars sold in the state? Yeah, I am sure that will work.

So, taking a page from California's book, can the automakers give the state an I.O.U. for the MPG they are short - just like they are thinking of doing with the tax refunds they owe people?

So, now Iowa can mandate that all cars and trucks sold in the state can ONLY be run on 100% ethanol, right? And they have to achieve 35 mpg on the urban cycle while using that fuel, right?

Here is a solution: California can go RICKSHAW power. Use all of the illegal alliens to PUSH or PULL the cars around instead of running the engines. They seem to have an abundance of the buggers around...they are renewable, and cheap.

LOL that would be funny to see Iowa do that. If CA does this, then sure, I am on board with Iowa doing this.

[cletus8269]

hmm.. all this makes me want to live out the movie blast from the past.

[Intrepidation]

That some of you people dare call yourselves Americans, or Patriotic for that matter, while condoning torture, and showing a willingness to abandon the principles and ideals that our country was founded on shocks and disgusts me. Condoning those actions makes us as evil as the terrorists we so want to crush. Think a about that for a moment.

On that note if this doesn't get back on topic I will lock it.

[GXT]

I said nothing of being "kind". We should crush those who attack us with the swiftest and greatest of force.... but that would have meant concentrating on Afghanistan rather than Iraq.

We should, however, still respect our own laws and process. By throwing out those ideals we hold dear we become no better than the terrorists.

With all this "us vs them" and "we are better than them" talk I think it is worth considering that the US has engaged in actions for decades that could very well be considered much worse than 9/11. By that measure if you feel justified in attacking them for 9/11, then 9/11 was also justified.

[gm4life]

Agreed. Problem is, the conservatives don't respect our own laws and ideals. They sold out to the corporations and the religious zealots long ago. The conservative 'traditional values' types are the most hypocritical, intolerant people I've ever met.

Bull&#036;h&#33; Moltar. I know many open minded republicans and traditionalist. I am proud to be one. Proud to have a traditonal life and go to church every week, drive American cars, the belief that all life has value, belief that the less goverment the better and the core beliefs our country was founded on. Our fore-fathers warmed of this. Liberals are very opened minded if you agree with them, I have not sold out to any religious zealots no corperations. I have no sold out to the Obama-mania Media like many others have. When people have a "cult" like following of him no one can take the damn blinders off and see the kind of &#036;h&#33; like this fuel economy thing that he is doing.

I am proud of who I am. Proud of what my childern believe. I am proud of how I was raised. Moving to a more progressive i.e. liberal agenda is just want the media and the world wants so everyone can think like them. We have strayed so far away from the people who founded this great country.

[gm4life]

I find it sad people forget what happend on 9/11 and what a great job ex-president Bush has done to keep us safe. I can't find anyway to agree with some of you people but you can kiss GM and your performance cars good-bye if this happens. So much for change.

[gm4life]

That some of you people dare call yourselves Americans, or Patriotic for that matter, while condoning torture, and showing a willingness to abandon the principles and ideals that our country was founded on shocks and disgusts me. Condoning those actions makes us as evil as the terrorists we so want to crush. Think a about that for a moment.

On that note if this doesn't get back on topic I will lock it.

No what disgusts me is the fact we shouldn't do anything to keep ourselfs safe. Goverment has never solved problems never will and this fuel economy bill is no different.

[Intrepidation]

No what disgusts me is the fact we shouldn't do anything to keep ourselfs safe. Goverment has never solved problems never will and this fuel economy bill is no different.

You can do plenty to keep the country safe without resorting to terrorist and Nazi interrogation and prisoner keeping techniques, and spying on your own citizens.

Back to the topic

At any rate, if the government is willing to fund these developments (25 billion was supposedly already allotted, but I suspect more will be needed) then go for it. However I feel this should wait until the economy recovers and the automakers have some actual cash reserves.

[Drew Dowdell]

Whoa you just sounded like a republican.

right up till that "respecting our laws" part right?