The truth about the 2004-2006 GTO

[Camino LS6]

Read this:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661387

[Lamar]

GM was forced to stop production of the GTO for the same reason it stopped production of the F-body: New Federal Regulations. In this instance, the new federal regs concerned front seat passengers. There was new safety standards regarding airbag deployments that took place at the start of the Federal new model year (September 1, 2004). Holden (and GM) simply saw no need to spend money on a car that was going to be replaced, so they simply wound out production until they had to stop.

Didn't know this.

[gm4life]

Great read and so true.

[Northstar]

Shhh! Don't let PCS read this, he'll throw a fit!

[Jamie]

Yep. The Monaro was designed to sell only 5,000 cars per year over a 3 year model life with strict quotas that meant exactly 1/4 would have the 3.8 V6 and auto trans and the remaining 3/4 would get the V8 in either auto or manual). The idea was that it would be a true low volume halo car, and the limited production numbers would keep the price of new and used models high.

[BatmanGTO]

Well I have mine.... so I'm good

[Sixty8panther]

Thanks for posting this Camino.

Your 6-speed GTO was a fantastic car... I'll prob own one someday.

If only the rear side window was a bit smaller so it could be made to

drop into the rear 1/4-panel and therefore aid in B-pillar deletage. :wink:

Shhh! Don't let PCS read this, he'll throw a fit!

F*** anyone who is posing as a GM enthusiast but has some

convoluted agenda based mostly on their hatred of Holden &

love of Opel even if it means starving GM-NA or RWD product.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Sixty8panther

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't throw a fit, I just push forth GME's agenda with new vigor, I am relentless ...

[daves87rs]

So much drama, so little time....

[Cory Wolfe]

I don't throw a fit, I just push forth GME's agenda with new vigor, I am relentless ...

Karma.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't throw a fit, I just push forth GME's agenda with new vigor, I am relentless ...

It doesn't count if the agenda is on the floor and if the relentless pushing is with a broom and dust pan.

In all serious though, yes GME is exactly where it belongs (with Buick) IMO.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It doesn't count if the agenda is on the floor and if the relentless pushing is with a broom and dust pan.

Now you know better than that, and I understand that it scares you to the very core of your being, but I have been with GM 20 years come June 2009, and as CPF says, no one understands internal GM politics better than me, and I have to say, things look like they are going GME's way these days.

In all serious though, yes GME is exactly where it belongs (with Buick) IMO.

On this you and I, seem to have reached a consensus ...

Edited February 7, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Now you know better than that, and I understand that it scares you to the very core of your being, but I have been with GM 20 years come June 2009, and as CPF says, no one understands internal GM politics better than me, and I have to say, things look like they are going GME's way these days.

LOL, doesn't scare me at all. I'll shop elsewhere and say to hell with GM if it doesn't sell what I want. Need I remind you that my daily driver is NOT a GM vehicle?

Edited February 7, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Drew Dowdell]

I'll shop elsewhere and say to hell with GM if it doesn't sell what I want.

I wish upper management would get this.

[Satty]

I've been shopping elsewhere for new vehicles because GM hasn't had what I/we wanted. Midsize sedan, 4cyl/manual transmission in the Summer of 2006? Nothing from GM, went with Ford. Hybrid sedan in the Spring of '08? GM only sold the Malibu and Aura in certain areas of the country, and neither gets good enough mileage to justify the hassle, went with Toyota. I cant bitch too much about the MINI (she's picking it up Valentine's Day!) because nobody offers anything similar in the states. At least not yet. So for all the talk of GM needing 8 brands to cover every corner of the market, there are huge gaps they dont cover, so whats the point of all these brands?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've been shopping elsewhere for new vehicles because GM hasn't had what I/we wanted. Midsize sedan, 4cyl/manual transmission in the Summer of 2006? Nothing from GM, went with Ford. Hybrid sedan in the Spring of '08? GM only sold the Malibu and Aura in certain areas of the country, and neither gets good enough mileage to justify the hassle, went with Toyota. I cant bitch too much about the MINI (she's picking it up Valentine's Day!) because nobody offers anything similar in the states. At least not yet. So for all the talk of GM needing 8 brands to cover every corner of the market, there are huge gaps they dont cover, so whats the point of all these brands?

I agree...

GM has been so bad at focusing it's divisions. With 8 brands, GM should be able to cover the market and then some. But for some reason, the company seems to think that every brand must sell the same car and market to the same clientele. They've essentially been committing suicide for 20 years now. It makes me so angry to see resources squandered so badly by management that apparently isn't even smart enough to see the freight train that was heading for the company 3 years ago.

[longtooth]

I wish upper management would get this.

This is why I've been anticipating Camaro for so long.

Was thinking back to Summer '02 when I picked up the Firehawk at Peruzzi Pontiac in Fairless Hills, Pennsylvania. At the time I was looking at a slew of SS Camaros, WS6s, Z28s. There was a real selection of turn-key hotrods in town. Not having a Firebird derivative available this time around hurts a little but an optioned SS should soothe my qualms when I first spot one for sale.

[Croc]

I've been shopping elsewhere for new vehicles because GM hasn't had what I/we wanted. Midsize sedan, 4cyl/manual transmission in the Summer of 2006? Nothing from GM, went with Ford. Hybrid sedan in the Spring of '08? GM only sold the Malibu and Aura in certain areas of the country, and neither gets good enough mileage to justify the hassle, went with Toyota. I cant bitch too much about the MINI (she's picking it up Valentine's Day!) because nobody offers anything similar in the states. At least not yet. So for all the talk of GM needing 8 brands to cover every corner of the market, there are huge gaps they dont cover, so whats the point of all these brands?

Yup. GM is only focused on Toyota and Lexus, so they have 8 brands doing little more than competing model-for-model. A different division for each Toyota trim level!

[turbo200]

I think that GM is losing a lot of fanbase from these websites now...the people who started out long ago with them are moving on. there is not much left to see. they've tattered and ruined all of the story. the story of the images and names we grew up with or were born into. you know, I don't want to get too deep into this, but all that's left is that people understand the chances for product and natural evolution of the brands have come and gone. a lot of people here are very disallusioned with a company that seemingly can't make any step without feeling like it's going to breakdown. the problem has always been image/style, quality, performance. they haven't made completely satisfying cars/trucks until now, and even now they are few and very far between. had they begun with those tenets whenever they were developing new product, we wouldn't be in the situation we see before us today, where they are so broke and things are so bad they are basically on a path to destruction. thanks to not having any good mass market cars [aside from the just barely introd malibu], they are left in a position of huge weakness.

[Intrepidation]

LOL, doesn't scare me at all. I'll shop elsewhere and say to hell with GM if it doesn't sell what I want. Need I remind you that my daily driver is NOT a GM vehicle?

And this is what GM doesn't seem get, that people won't settle for less and will shop elsewhere. Same problem for Chrysler and Ford, but Ford has learned from it's mistakes and is making some of the best vehicles on the market now. Chrysler I dunno...if teh Ram is any indication then maybe.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If there was no GTO, I would probably be driving a 350Z, 330Ci, or G35 coupe right now. So if GM stops making cars like the GTO, I will have no problem shopping elsewhere.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I think that GM is losing a lot of fanbase from these websites now...the people who started out long ago with them are moving on. there is not much left to see. they've tattered and ruined all of the story. the story of the images and names we grew up with or were born into. you know, I don't want to get too deep into this, but all that's left is that people understand the chances for product and natural evolution of the brands have come and gone. a lot of people here are very disallusioned with a company that seemingly can't make any step without feeling like it's going to breakdown. the problem has always been image/style, quality, performance. they haven't made completely satisfying cars/trucks until now, and even now they are few and very far between. had they begun with those tenets whenever they were developing new product, we wouldn't be in the situation we see before us today, where they are so broke and things are so bad they are basically on a path to destruction. thanks to not having any good mass market cars [aside from the just barely introd malibu], they are left in a position of huge weakness.

Exactly. I know I haven't been on here as much as I used to. I used to keep hoping one day GM would wake up and turn Pontiac into what it should be, but we kept getting force-fed more G5's, and G6's, and now it seems there is no future for Pontiac. So with that, it seems like there is no future of me buying GM vehicles.

[turbo200]

in a few years:

cadillac may consist of an epsilon 2 large sedan

4 year old Sigma 2 CTS perhaps not going to continue on sigma

no alpha in production

Lambda large crossover

theta small crossover

pontiac:

matrix's uglier goofier stupider sibling

fantastic g8

several generations behind in design/performance G6

what else?

GM is giving enthusiasts a lot of reason to get excited over company's portfolios that care about style, performance, and image.

[Intrepidation]

On thing flaw I find with that analysis is the Matrix is as ugly or uglier.

[daves87rs]

On thing flaw I find with that analysis is the Matrix is as ugly or uglier.

Both

[turbo200]

if you don't find the matrix infinitely more appealing than that bulldog of a Pontiac, with its craptacularly bland and empty sides, pregnant midsection, weird rear end style.......i don't know, maybe you're just biased against plain looking style. the matrix is plain, doesn't have any kind of character in the headlights, but it's overall very attractive.

[balthazar]

I love this sort of 'mirage' styling review: the matrix & Vibe are identical except for the hood & front bumper. Same "craptastic"ly bland sides on the matrix. That said, the matrix's face is clearly is more convoluted & disjointed... but BOTH are ugly, nasty little cars.

While we're at it, WTF is that monsterous chrome... growth on the door of the 370z above ???

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think that GM is losing a lot of fanbase from these websites now...the people who started out long ago with them are moving on. there is not much left to see. they've tattered and ruined all of the story. the story of the images and names we grew up with or were born into. you know, I don't want to get too deep into this, but all that's left is that people understand the chances for product and natural evolution of the brands have come and gone. a lot of people here are very disallusioned with a company that seemingly can't make any step without feeling like it's going to breakdown. the problem has always been image/style, quality, performance. they haven't made completely satisfying cars/trucks until now, and even now they are few and very far between. had they begun with those tenets whenever they were developing new product, we wouldn't be in the situation we see before us today, where they are so broke and things are so bad they are basically on a path to destruction. thanks to not having any good mass market cars [aside from the just barely introd malibu], they are left in a position of huge weakness.

It certainly is very difficult to keep the faith now... And that's coming from me (a man that would physically fight over GM if need be )

I think we're all to the point of apathy and acceptance. If GM comes back, it'll be cool, but deep down we're all prepared for the worst because that's how history has conditioned us to be

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

matrix's uglier goofier stupider sibling

What tha f**k?!?!

The Vibe is MILES and away better than the new Matrix.

Lets be a little bit more fair with that photo comparison and pick something besides a base model GRAY fleet shot:

The Vibe is clearly the genetics *winner* in this comparison (unless you're blinded by import bliss)

I, for one, think the Vibe GT is damn nice. And I think it has HUGE potential that both GM and Pontiac STILL fail to realize in 1) redefining the corporation 2) redefining the brand 3) expanding the appeal of the brand and 4) pumping up the volume of the brand. The possibilities are endless (as they were when the original Vibe was introduced and hyped, then botched) but as usual, GM's ignorance is blinding them completely.

I would be VERY happy with a Pontiac that consists of a sexy G8, pumped up Solstice and a Vibe GT and higher Vibe line.

In fact; give me a Vibe GXP with some performance mods, a bit more aggressive nose and about an inch bigger wheels and I'd be HAPPY to replace my daily driver.

Edited February 10, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Cory Wolfe]

if you don't find the matrix infinitely more appealing than that bulldog of a Pontiac, with its craptacularly bland and empty sides, pregnant midsection, weird rear end style.......i don't know, maybe you're just biased against plain looking style. the matrix is plain, doesn't have any kind of character in the headlights, but it's overall very attractive.

Both aren't very attractive, but the Matrix is far less appealing. You must be blind.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Maybe I just have a fetish for small, weird hatchbacks....

(I do drive a ZX3 after all)

Edited February 10, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Intrepidation]

if you don't find the matrix infinitely more appealing than that bulldog of a Pontiac, with its craptacularly bland and empty sides, pregnant midsection, weird rear end style.......i don't know, maybe you're just biased against plain looking style. the matrix is plain, doesn't have any kind of character in the headlights, but it's overall very attractive.

I'm certainly not "blind" they both look bad. If you can't see that then perhaps you are blind, if we're going to take other's opinions as fact now.

Besides the saggy front and bulging lights, the worst offender for the Matrix is how the rear window looks like it came from another car. You have a sharply shaped greenhouse edge, then a rounded rear window. They should both be sharp or rounded. It's like they had another "design" team worked on the back of the car and weren't allowed to see what the rest of it looked like.

[REDO1GPGT]

Exactly. I know I haven't been on here as much as I used to. I used to keep hoping one day GM would wake up and turn Pontiac into what it should be, but we kept getting force-fed more G5's, and G6's, and now it seems there is no future for Pontiac. So with that, it seems like there is no future of me buying GM vehicles.

I can totally relate. I used to be a huge fan of GM, after Olds demise and the bleak future of Pontiac and GM in general it's been extremely hard to maintain any sort of interest in the General any more. I don't even drive a GM anymore and in the last month or so sold off most of my GM memorbilia with the exception of a few Olds items, I've just lost interest and other brands are more appealing.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm in the same boat. I stopped coming around C&G for GM long ago... with all the internal politics, poor management, overrated spokespersons, and a lack of product that's been promised and rumored, but never seen. I only come around because of the members here. GM interests me about as much as the opposite sex.

[daves87rs]

What tha f**k?!?!

The Vibe is MILES and away better than the new Matrix.

Lets be a little bit more fair with that photo comparison and pick something besides a base model GRAY fleet shot:

The Vibe is clearly the genetics *winner* in this comparison (unless you're blinded by import bliss)

I, for one, think the Vibe GT is damn nice. And I think it has HUGE potential that both GM and Pontiac STILL fail to realize in 1) redefining the corporation 2) redefining the brand 3) expanding the appeal of the brand and 4) pumping up the volume of the brand. The possibilities are endless (as they were when the original Vibe was introduced and hyped, then botched) but as usual, GM's ignorance is blinding them completely.

I would be VERY happy with a Pontiac that consists of a sexy G8, pumped up Solstice and a Vibe GT and higher Vibe line.

In fact; give me a Vibe GXP with some performance mods, a bit more aggressive nose and about an inch bigger wheels and I'd be HAPPY to replace my daily driver.

That's a better pic of the Vibe...the GT does look better...

[Drew Dowdell]

if you don't find the matrix infinitely more appealing than that bulldog of a Pontiac, with its craptacularly bland and empty sides, pregnant midsection, weird rear end style.......i don't know, maybe you're just biased against plain looking style. the matrix is plain, doesn't have any kind of character in the headlights, but it's overall very attractive.

They must be growing a good weed crop out in California this year....

[FAPTurbo]

Saying the Pontiac Vibe is better looking than the Toyota Matrix is akin to saying that you're the healthiest guy in the intensive care ward.

[MyerShift]

I agree...

GM has been so bad at focusing it's divisions. With 8 brands, GM should be able to cover the market and then some. But for some reason, the company seems to think that every brand must sell the same car and market to the same clientele. They've essentially been committing suicide for 20 years now. It makes me so angry to see resources squandered so badly by management that apparently isn't even smart enough to see the freight train that was heading for the company 3 years ago.

Best statement concerning GM I have read.

[Sixty8panther]

The Vibe's styling, while goofy & awkwardly upright, is completed.

It has a sense of direction, a continuity & above all, it's a CLEAN

design... nothing looks tacked on or otherwise drawn by a 15

year old kid in High School study hall.

The Matrix DOES look terrible, it LACKS continuity look like a kid

who got a B- in High School Art class for his paper-mache Hat.

That "Spartan-Mask" fascia that Toyota's been trying to emulate

is just _FAIL every time.

[Robert Hall]

That "Spartan-Mask" fascia that Toyota's been trying to emulate

is just _FAIL every time.

Spartan-Mask is a good description. On a similar theme, the current HD Silverado front end reminds me of Magneto's helmet (the bumper) and the Audi Q7 front end kind of reminds me of an 'Alien' head.. wierd how those things just jump out at you..

[Sixty8panther]

Yeah, I came up with that a while back. It just clicked

that the nose of these Toyopets has that quality, and

that, if anything, is an insult to Spartans!

[Daryl Z71]

Hey PCS whats that car in your signature and do you have more pics of it?

[Oracle of Delphi]

If you are referring to this sig it's the Corvette Stingray.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/11/chicago...ingray-concept/

[cire]

I agree...

GM has been so bad at focusing it's divisions. With 8 brands, GM should be able to cover the market and then some. But for some reason, the company seems to think that every brand must sell the same car and market to the same clientele. They've essentially been committing suicide for 20 years now. It makes me so angry to see resources squandered so badly by management that apparently isn't even smart enough to see the freight train that was heading for the company 3 years ago.

It seems to me that GM had a lot of help from their dealers. Every time one division received a particular product, the dealers from another division wanted a "me too" product to compete with it. I guess GM just eventually embraced the mind set that they needed to develop "one of each" for every division. Of course we know what this practice has done to the perceptions and images of the corporation's divisions.

It really is time for GM to make some hard core decisions based on what's good for the survival, success, and longevity of the corporation, not the dealers and unions.

[SAmadei]

It seems to me that GM had a lot of help from their dealers. Every time one division received a particular product, the dealers from another division wanted a "me too" product to compete with it. I guess GM just eventually embraced the mind set that they needed to develop "one of each" for every division. Of course we know what this practice has done to the perceptions and images of the corporation's divisions.

Well, to a degree, this was a side effect of the Cradle-to-Grave Sloan plan. Worked well with two chassis lengths and when cars lasted 4 years. Of course, I think this dealer perk goes out the window when Buick expects to match every one of Chevrolet's roughly 12-20 nameplates.

No part of dealer price gouging the general public on every hot new product hasn't helped GM one bit.

[Chicagoland]

The "me too" dates to the 60's with the Tempest/F-85/Special, then the NOVA clones, to the X/J/A/N cars, etc, etc.

In the 70's, the BOP dealers went after Chevy buyers with the 'for $100 more you can get a better nameplate'. Then, GM spent less and less on differentiation. The 68-72 mid sized cars each had their own style, but the A/N/W cars were blah-blah.

This is the root of GM's issues, along with poor quality of small cars aimed at younger buyers, i.e. Vega.

[ocnblu]

By GM's own founding principle, you've GOT to have a great entry-level car to get young ppl in the door, then keep them interested throughout their lifetime with something better at each trade-in time.

[Robert Hall]

If you are referring to this sig it's the Corvette Stingray.

Link: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/11/chicago...ingray-concept/

Ah...that's the car that's supposed to be in the Transformers sequel.