GM snuffs Holden's global RWD dream

[Lamar]

What ZL-1 was trying to say was that Alpha should be able to accept cars of various sizes and shapes, just like Audi's B8 platform, not that Audi has a RWD/AWD platform in the works that Alpha should emulate.

And ZL-1 is right.

OK, I went back and re-read his post and saw how I missed that point (it's late here).

I agree with him too. Sorry for sounding slow.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Lamar

[Camino LS6]

Charlie: Just for clarification, the way you (and Scott for that matter) feel about Camaro is how I feel about the El Camino and the ST.

Should have just said that first.

[Chazman]

Charlie: Just for clarification, the way you (and Scott for that matter) feel about Camaro is how I feel about the El Camino and the ST.

Should have just said that first.

Oh, I know bud. I've known that since - when did this site start? - since there was only a handful of us here BS-ing about cars.

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, I guess I didn't need to post that.

This really ripped my guts out after being sooooo close.

[Blake Noble]

OK, I went back and re-read his post and saw how I missed that point (it's late here).

I agree with him too. Sorry for sounding slow.

It's all good. It happens to all of us.

[cire]

Charlie: Just for clarification, the way you (and Scott for that matter) feel about Camaro is how I feel about the El Camino and the ST.

Should have just said that first.

If GM feels that the G8 ST doesn't fit Pontiac's image, fine (I totally agree; the Ute should have never been under consideration for Pontiac). I still don't understand why they don't introduce it simultaneously with the Camaro as a "Chevrolet Performance Legends" line. They could get more bang for their buck by advertising the return of 2 legendary Chevy nameplates, instead of just the Camaro. How hard would it be to insert some sort of Chevy grille where the twin nostrils were to reside on the G8 ST? I think the trucklet would get much more attention (and probably success) as a Chevrolet El Camino anyway.

[Blake Noble]

I'm all for Alpha especially for the next Camaro and for Pontiac, but I really love Zeta more.

For me, Zeta is exactly the size of car I want. Of course all of you know all about that from The Chevelle Project.

Dead dreams suck.

Zeta is a great platform dynamically considering its weight, but everything about it is wrong for a Camaro.

On the other hand, it is better suited for a new Chevelle (and El Camino, of course). And that's where GM made it's mistake.

(Personally, the only Zetas at Chevrolet should have been an Impala coupe and sedan. But the demand to revive the Camaro was so large and since Zeta was the only way to do it, the end product wound up compromised as a result. Using the Zeta platform at Chevrolet shouldn't have been used for a Camaro revival. Too late now, huh?)

Edited January 16, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

If GM feels that the G8 ST doesn't fit Pontiac's image, fine (I totally agree; the Ute should have never been under consideration for Pontiac). I still don't understand why they don't introduce it simultaneously with the Camaro as a "Chevrolet Performance Legends" line. They could get more bang for their buck by advertising the return of 2 legendary Chevy nameplates, instead of just the Camaro. How hard would it be to insert some sort of Chevy grille where the twin nostrils were to reside on the G8 ST? I think the trucklet would get much more attention (and probably success) as a Chevrolet El Camino anyway.

You do realize that this is killing me, right?

First of all, they already build it with a Chevy nose for the Middle East.

Second, It would sell better as a Chevy to be sure - but Holden can only build a few a year anyway.

I understand why it was to be a Pontiac.

When GM still gave a crap about Pontiac it made sense.

Now, it's just too late.

[Camino LS6]

What should have happened was that Pontiac got the entire G8 family from the start.

With the Camaro by itself at Chevy.

Unless they had been ready when they should have been: about ten years ago.

[Chazman]

Zeta is a great platform dynamically considering its weight, but everything about it is wrong for a Camaro.

On the other hand, it is better suited for a new Chevelle (and El Camino, of course). And that's where GM made it's mistake.

(Personally, the only Zetas at Chevrolet should have been an Impala coupe and sedan. But the demand to revive the Camaro was so large and since Zeta was the only way to do it, the end product wound up compromised as a result. Using the Zeta platform at Chevrolet shouldn't have been used for a Camaro revival. Too late now, huh?)

I agree completely. If GM had released the Zeta Impala, I'm pretty sure that I would have bought one. But a Zeta Camaro just leaves me cold.

[Blake Noble]

What should have happened was that Pontiac got the entire G8 family from the start.

Again, everyone but GM has a better idea of how to handle Zeta than GM itself does. (Or in this case, how it should have been handled.)

With the Camaro by itself at Chevy.

And, ideally, not on Zeta.

Unless they had been ready when they should have been: about ten years ago.

And here's the kicker: around the 1998 to 1999 timeframe, GM was thinking about going rear-drive with the cars that would have been the Monte Carlo and Impala. Of course, I think you already knew that.

The case of building recent rear-wheel drive cars at GM is one example of many of the company's unwillingness to commit to products that cover every spectrum of the market correctly.

Edited January 16, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Camino LS6]

That about sums it up, YJ.

[Chazman]

Again, everyone but GM has a better idea of how to handle Zeta than GM itself does. (Or in this case, how it should have been handled.)

And, ideally, not on Zeta.

3 years ago, right after the concept's intro and before the Camaro was "officially approved", I had a very long conversation with the head of the program. The purpose was to get my take on certain areas of this car.

My very first comment to him, was my concern over using Zeta for Camaro. I was concerned about the high cowl, large size and of course weight. He responded that the cowl would be what it would be, but the rest was not an issue. Not to give out too many details, but it was his belief that the car would come in smaller and quite abit lighter than it actually did.

I seriously wonder, if GM management was sold a bill of goods on the capabilities of Zeta?

Edited January 16, 2009 by Chazman

[Drew Dowdell]

Can someone tell me why the Zeta can't be sold in the U.S. and what further costs besides shipping it would bring? The thing is developed... it's on the road in other countries... why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, RWD Park Ave that uses off the shelf N.A. drivetrain. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, G8 ST. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed RWD Chevy Caprice. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a line to build Zetas in Canada. Tool up the suppliers and crank 'em out!

[Intrepidation]

You could toss in some hybrid and diesel options to make them more efficient too. But that would require using one's brain, and GM hasn't been doing much of that lately.

[Camino LS6]

Can someone tell me why the Zeta can't be sold in the U.S. and what further costs besides shipping it would bring? The thing is developed... it's on the road in other countries... why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, RWD Park Ave that uses off the shelf N.A. drivetrain. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, G8 ST. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed RWD Chevy Caprice. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a line to build Zetas in Canada. Tool up the suppliers and crank 'em out!

Again, GM's lame decision-making at work.

Even if Zeta is doomed by CAFE (I don't buy it), they should have expedited production on that architecture to get a decent return on the investment in it. 3-5 years of being a real player in a market they have ignored for years could have had major benefit even if future regulations made it impossible to continue beyond that time frame.

Instead, they just tossed that investment away.

Stupid.

[Chazman]

You could toss in some hybrid and diesel options to make them more efficient too. But that would require using one's brain, and GM hasn't been doing much of that lately.

Hybrids and diesels cost some bucks. Personally, I'm not that sold on the efficacy of hybrids, I see it as an appeasement to the green folks, who don't know enough to compare cost vs value. Diesels I like, but are VERY expensive to make emissions legal in the US - on top of them being just plain expensive. Plus, diesel fuel is expensive too.

I just don't think there's a market for a $35-40,000 base G8 with diesel or hybrid.

I think it would also help if G8 sales weren't so soft.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not even concerned about CAFE. How many Zeta Park Aves would they sell at 45k anyway?

Park Ave sales have been down in China. Take that capacity to the US. Even if GM only sold 1,000 of them a month, that's 12,000 more sales per year with no additional development costs!

[Camino LS6]

I'm not even concerned about CAFE. How many Zeta Park Aves would they sell at 45k anyway?

Park Ave sales have been down in China. Take that capacity to the US. Even if GM only sold 1,000 of them a month, that's 12,000 more sales per year with no additional development costs!

And that is only one Zeta variant being sold at a low-volume brand...

Such potential wasted!

[Camino LS6]

Here we have an architecture capable of:

-multiple sizes

-multiple drivetrains, including AWD

- Coupe, sedan, wagon, Ute, crossover, and convertible bodystyles.

-engineered for global markets (every inhabited continent)

All tossed to the wind.

[ZL-1]

What ZL-1 was trying to say was that Alpha should be able to accept cars of various sizes and shapes, just like Audi's B8 platform, not that Audi has a RWD/AWD platform in the works that Alpha should emulate.

Exactly, as flexible as technically and economically possible. The big and important issue is that GM is so desperate for cash that such a platform seems to be very far out into the future. In the meantime, maybe Sigma can be updated with lighter weight materials...

[Chicagoland]

"so I guess I'll have to get a bumper sticker for my 7 series..."

Well, 97%+ of us real people simply cannot afford a 7 Series or other super $$$$ car. And last I heard BMW and MB sales are tanking too. Beemer had relied subsidized leases, but now any 'hot shot' can't lease a 3 series and take it to their McMansion. [When i see these former greedy people crying because they lost $$ in past year, I could not care less.]

Also, sure Mopar sells LX RWD, but then they are about ready to shut down. So much for the idea that RWD/V8 is all that is needed to "save" a car company

[Intrepidation]

Hybrids and diesels cost some bucks. Personally, I'm not that sold on the efficacy of hybrids, I see it as an appeasement to the green folks, who don't know enough to compare cost vs value. Diesels I like, but are VERY expensive to make emissions legal in the US - on top of them being just plain expensive. Plus, diesel fuel is expensive too.

I just don't think there's a market for a $35-40,000 base G8 with diesel or hybrid.

I think it would also help if G8 sales weren't so soft.

As I said earlier in this thread, GM should have had the foresight to be developing/certifying the powertrains. Even if the Hybrids and Diesels cost more, they will sell as soon as gas prices swing up again, which they will whenever the economy recovers. You could also use Turbo DI 4 bangers. There's plenty of creative solutions that could and should have been put to use, but GM is content to piss money away, and either design a whole new, FWD platform, whore out EP II, or just not bother and let what's on the market rot. It's not like they haven't done that before.

[Intrepidation]

"so I guess I'll have to get a bumper sticker for my 7 series..."

Well, 97%+ of us real people simply cannot afford a 7 Series or other super $$$$ car. And last I heard BMW and MB sales are tanking too. Beemer had relied subsidized leases, but now any 'hot shot' can't lease a 3 series and take it to their McMansion. [When i see these former greedy people crying because they lost $$ in past year, I could not care less.]

Also, sure Mopar sells LX RWD, but then they are about ready to shut down. So much for the idea that RWD/V8 is all that is needed to "save" a car company

The LX cars, beside the Magnum, have sold very well, and while the 300's sales were starting to slide the Charger's saw continued growth basically until the economy $h! the bed, at which pint every car saw sales declines as well. Chrysler proved you could sell a high volume RWD vehicle.

[Chazman]

As I said earlier in this thread, GM should have had the foresight to be developing/certifying the powertrains. Even if the Hybrids and Diesels cost more, they will sell as soon as gas prices swing up again, which they will whenever the economy recovers. You could also use Turbo DI 3 bangers. There's plenty of creative solutions that could and should have been put to use, but GM is content to piss money away, and either design a whole new, FWD platform, whore out EP II, or just not bother and let what's on the market rot. It's not like they haven't done that before.

I can't imagine anyone buying a turbo 3 banger in a two ton car.

[Robert Hall]

I can't imagine anyone buying a turbo 3 banger in a two ton car.

I could either, but I would definitely consider a diesel (V6 or V8) in one. With a manual, preferably.

[Intrepidation]

I can't imagine anyone buying a turbo 3 banger in a two ton car.

I meant 4, lol

[Chazman]

I could either, but I would definitely consider a diesel (V6 or V8) in one. With a manual, preferably.

Actually, I think a nice turbo diesel would be pretty cool. But to be honest, once I would see the $5,000 -$6,000 tab for one, I'd probably pass on it.

[SAmadei]

These are some dimensions of the F5 Camaro versus the dimensions of my 1972 Cutlass, an all-steel, body-on-frame, classic American car.

1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350 V8:

• Curb weight: 3,515 lb
• Wheelbase: 112 in (Coupe models)
• Overall length: 201.7 in
• Overall width: 76.8 in

2010 Chevrolet F5 Camaro 3.6L V6:

• Curb weight: 3741 lb (LS w/ manual)
• Wheelbase: 112.3 in
• Overall length: 190.4 in
• Overall width: 75.5 in

Thanks. I was going to post something similar, but couldn't find any good specs offhand.

This is the thing that drives me nuts. Why do we have to have 23 miles of wiring, 200 pounds of sound deadener, and 500 pounds of stiffeners in the car? Because of every dumbass car magazine and reviewer. Oh, this doesn't have a heated trunk latch or 16-way rearview mirror. It's not quiet enough... I still can't hear a pin drop. It feels like a flimsy-flier because we just stepped out of a quarter million dollar Ferrari or a Mercedes that weighed more than a giant SUV. Give me a break!

It seems to me that automotive efficiency peaked in 1972, just about when the government got involved. Sure, the drivetrains have gotten more efficient and have better emissions, but everything else has been out the window. My '70 Tempest with a 155 hp 6 cylinder got 22 mpg. Put a modern V6 and OD transmission in it, and it would get 35... and it would have been a lot faster with a 300 hp V6... but without the 1000 pounds of extra garbage stuffed into every car. Plus it was HUGE compared to today's crap... I could sit in the back seat! I could put a mountain of stuff in the trunk!

Everyone has lost touch with how to build a simple, efficient automobile... just like we have "lost" the technology we used to send people to the moon almost a half century ago.

There is a reason why the Cobalt SS Turbocharged was just as good as it was around the Nurburing.

IMHO, for it's size, the Cobalt is still a cow.

[SAmadei]

I just don't think there's a market for a $35-40,000 base G8 with diesel or hybrid.

There are quite a few people who are waiting for the $40K G8 GXP.

In this day, ALL cars are $19K and higher. Yeah, you can find cheaper cars, but they are really stripped and the dealers don't even want to stock them.

Historically, the good cars are always double the price of the stripped down entry level cars... so $40K is not that unusual. It seems like everybody was pretty comfortable buying $30K-$60K trucks until the economy dropped out. I'm shocked how much people pay for trucks.

[SAmadei]

"so I guess I'll have to get a bumper sticker for my 7 series..."

Well, 97%+ of us real people simply cannot afford a 7 Series or other super $$$$ car. And last I heard BMW and MB sales are tanking too. Beemer had relied subsidized leases, but now any 'hot shot' can't lease a 3 series and take it to their McMansion. [When i see these former greedy people crying because they lost $$ in past year, I could not care less.]

Really? Look on the road, there are a LOT of $65K-$95K cars... more than 3%. And a lot of very new $50K+ cars that undoubtedly on short leases.

A friend of mine delivers newspapers and he has a nice BMW. I guess to afford the car one wants, they are going to have to hold on to it for a few years, and not expect to drive something brand new every year. I love seeing vapid people who insist on looking richer than they really are get their just desserts.

I actually meant to say 6 series (I forgot that the big coupe is now a 6 series), but in either case we are talking about a $80K car. I don't consider myself to be in a position to buy one yet, in fact, I have doubts I can afford a new G8 GXP... but that doesn't mean I couldn't buy one if, say, I stopped eating out for 18 months or so. I have better things to spend my money on. Keep in mind, I make decent dime, but I'm usually happy driving around in a giant $700 wagon that hauls ass and other stuff.

That said, I can't buy a Malibu and expect it to fit my needs. My primary need is to FIT in it and drive it reasonably comfortably. I have my doubts about the G8's size when I tried it out at the auto show. With the current direction of GM, what else am I going to buy? A Lucerne or a DTS? They are going away in a couple years and cost $45-60K... I'm not paying that for a FWD car. I'll pay the extra $20K and get something I'll enjoy.

MB and Mercedes are suffering, yes... but they realize it is the economy, not their product... and they are not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They will continue providing RWD cars.

If the economy continues to tank, and inflation takes off, Aveos are going to become $100K cars and people are going to remember the "Good 'Ole Days", when they could afford a car payment.

[Intrepidation]

Thanks. I was going to post something similar, but couldn't find any good specs offhand.

This is the thing that drives me nuts. Why do we have to have 23 miles of wiring, 200 pounds of sound deadener, and 500 pounds of stiffeners in the car? Because of every dumbass car magazine and reviewer. Oh, this doesn't have a heated trunk latch or 16-way rearview mirror. It's not quiet enough... I still can't hear a pin drop. It feels like a flimsy-flier because we just stepped out of a quarter million dollar Ferrari or a Mercedes that weighed more than a giant SUV. Give me a break!

It seems to me that automotive efficiency peaked in 1972, just about when the government got involved. Sure, the drivetrains have gotten more efficient and have better emissions, but everything else has been out the window. My '70 Tempest with a 155 hp 6 cylinder got 22 mpg. Put a modern V6 and OD transmission in it, and it would get 35... and it would have been a lot faster with a 300 hp V6... but without the 1000 pounds of extra garbage stuffed into every car. Plus it was HUGE compared to today's crap... I could sit in the back seat! I could put a mountain of stuff in the trunk!

Everyone has lost touch with how to build a simple, efficient automobile... just like we have "lost" the technology we used to send people to the moon almost a half century ago.

Well there are methods to the madness, though I agree it has gone overboard. Stiffening and weight increases make the car safer and generally handle better. Despite the weight, the Camaro will run circles around YJ's Cutlass.

I for one, what a car that handles better than the old stuff, because if I want something that doesn't, and is more simple, I can just buy said older car.

So we do need to get back in touch with building simple, safe,transportation sure, but that's for the economy segment, not the segment the Camaro wishes to compete in, which is the performance coupe segment.

Plus not every car back then was lighter and better, contrary to what OMG BOF V8 RWD NEW CARS SUCK BAHLZ!!!!!!!!111!!1! people would have you believe. For example, that `71 Sedan Deville I almost bought weight more than a Corolla and a Shadow combined, yet as cool as it was (and I'd still like to have one) my Intrepid is far more comfortable to be inside, front or back, is lighter, faster, over 3x more fuel efficient, handles WAY better, is and smaller on the outside but better packaged inside.

[Camino LS6]

It is time for the government to take a hard look at how regulations and how they are making the cars fatter. It runs counter to the stated goal of better fuel economy and they really can't have it both ways.

I'm for a well thought out rollback of the safety standards that add the most excessive weight to automobiles.

[Intrepidation]

I think we shouldn't have to raise them anymore, cars are safe enough now. We should also standardize emissions with Europe so we can get friggin' diesels.

[MyerShift]

CAFE is a weak excuse, they still make Hummers, Suburbans and Tahoes that suck far more gas than any rear drive car.

And herein lies the greatest hypocrisy of all.

Surely profitability alone isn't the reason the trucks are hailed as more important because premium automobiles command a premium price and profit and do so for efficiently.

Edited January 17, 2009 by MyerShift

[Camino LS6]

I think we shouldn't have to raise them anymore, cars are safe enough now. We should also standardize emissions with Europe so we can get friggin' diesels.

It's time to get real about the regulations: if they do, the industry will not only survive, but thrive.

[SAmadei]

Well there are methods to the madness, though I agree it has gone overboard. Stiffening and weight increases make the car safer and generally handle better. Despite the weight, the Camaro will run circles around YJ's Cutlass.

All things in moderation... which is what we can agree on... an Aveo doesn't have to be as stiff as a Porsche. But, stiffness is not the be all, end all to handling. There are several companies out there that can turn the YJ's Cutlass handling to the level of a Vette.

I for one, what a car that handles better than the old stuff, because if I want something that doesn't, and is more simple, I can just buy said older car.

No, you can't always just buy said older car. The old cars are not being created anymore... attrition from rust, emissions, ignorant people are making quality old cars very rare. Sure, I can still get a '69 Camaro for $4K... but it is in boxes and the body is well ventilated.

And some of the the newer cars are brutal. Mom just got a '04 Grand Prix GTP Comp-G. Suspension is HARD. Body don't flex a bit. You feel every bump and texture of the road. It so brutal that the headlights shake like hell. It handles very nicely (though it pulls, rather than pushes), but at a cost to comfort, IMHO.

So we do need to get back in touch with building simple, safe,transportation sure, but that's for the economy segment, not the segment the Camaro wishes to compete in, which is the performance coupe segment.

As I recall, Chevrolet is supposed to be GM's entry level brand. Every Chevy except the Corvette, should be simple, safe, and lightweight. I feel the new Camaro is almost trying to compete with low end super cars. That was the Trans Am's job.

Plus not every car back then was lighter and better, contrary to what OMG BOF V8 RWD NEW CARS SUCK BAHLZ!!!!!!!!111!!1! people would have you believe. For example, that `71 Sedan Deville I almost bought weight more than a Corolla and a Shadow combined, yet as cool as it was (and I'd still like to have one) my Intrepid is far more comfortable to be inside, front or back, is lighter, faster, over 3x more fuel efficient, handles WAY better, is and smaller on the outside but better packaged inside.

You can't compare the Sedan deVille to a Corolla-Shadow frankenstein. The only thing I can think of comparing it to is a Denali XL... Caddy is roughly 4600~4700... Denali XL is about 5100~5300.

I'm not going to say the Caddy is better than everything new. It's not. However, as an extreme example, a modern version of the Caddy COULD be built. A LS3... a 6L80 and some Hotchkis suspension upgrades and it will trump your Intrepid... even though it will still be roughly 4700 pounds and 20 foot long. Comfort is a subjective thing... so I'll avoid touching that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Can someone tell me why the Zeta can't be sold in the U.S. and what further costs besides shipping it would bring? The thing is developed... it's on the road in other countries... why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, RWD Park Ave that uses off the shelf N.A. drivetrain. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, G8 ST. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed RWD Chevy Caprice. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a line to build Zetas in Canada. Tool up the suppliers and crank 'em out!

Because the people who run GMNA are FAR too stupid to comprehend all of that 'common sense stuff'

[Robert Hall]

Can someone tell me why the Zeta can't be sold in the U.S. and what further costs besides shipping it would bring? The thing is developed... it's on the road in other countries... why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, RWD Park Ave that uses off the shelf N.A. drivetrain. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed, G8 ST. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a fully developed RWD Chevy Caprice. Why can't it be sold here?

They have a line to build Zetas in Canada. Tool up the suppliers and crank 'em out!

Because most American consumers want cheap, vanilla FWD generics from their GM brands? Sad, but true.

[Intrepidation]

All things in moderation... which is what we can agree on... an Aveo doesn't have to be as stiff as a Porsche. But, stiffness is not the be all, end all to handling. There are several companies out there that can turn the YJ's Cutlass handling to the level of a Vette.

Yes but exactly how much will that cost you?

No, you can't always just buy said older car. The old cars are not being created anymore... attrition from rust, emissions, ignorant people are making quality old cars very rare. Sure, I can still get a '69 Camaro for $4K... but it is in boxes and the body is well ventilated.

Yes you can, they will be around, and even the expensive ones, most go for about the price of a new car (with some exceptions).

And some of the the newer cars are brutal. Mom just got a '04 Grand Prix GTP Comp-G. Suspension is HARD. Body don't flex a bit. You feel every bump and texture of the road. It so brutal that the headlights shake like hell. It handles very nicely (though it pulls, rather than pushes), but at a cost to comfort, IMHO.

That's poor suspension tuning. The truely great cars, like the G8, and CTS can handle well and ride well.

You can't compare the Sedan deVille to a Corolla-Shadow frankenstein. The only thing I can think of comparing it to is a Denali XL... Caddy is roughly 4600~4700... Denali XL is about 5100~5300.

I was using the weight of those two cars because I don't remember the exact weight of the Caddy, I just know it was a lot and more than both of those cars. Intrepids are not some hybrid of two compacts. And yes it is a valid comparison because they were both sold as full-size cars.

I'm not going to say the Caddy is better than everything new. It's not. However, as an extreme example, a modern version of the Caddy COULD be built. A LS3... a 6L80 and some Hotchkis suspension upgrades and it will trump your Intrepid... even though it will still be roughly 4700 pounds and 20 foot long. Comfort is a subjective thing... so I'll avoid touching that.

By that logic I could stuff a V8 and suspension mods into the Intrepid (it's been done) and then smoke the Cadillac. You can't compare with modding because the possibilities are ENDLESS. The Cadillac could be modded with enough money to make 1000 hp, so could the Intrepid, and be converted to RWD.

[SAmadei]

Yes but exactly how much will that cost you?

I don't have exact current pricing, but a few thousand... Lets say about $3K for the suspension parts, $2K for a decent set of wheels and tires.

Yes you can, they will be around, and even the expensive ones, most go for about the price of a new car (with some exceptions).

I've looked at quite a few in that range, and most still need work... or work redone. Or they are not particularly desirable... lots of four door Chevelles coming out of the woodwork...

But quite frankly, I'm out of the market until I get my steel building built to store them in.

That's poor suspension tuning. The truely great cars, like the G8, and CTS can handle well and ride well.

I hope so, I still haven't found a dealer willing to let me test drive a G8 GT without checking my credit fifty different ways... though I am starting to second guess my desire to get the Pedder's suspension for it.

By that logic I could stuff a V8 and suspension mods into the Intrepid (it's been done) and then smoke the Cadillac. You can't compare with modding because the possibilities are ENDLESS. The Cadillac could be modded with enough money to make 1000 hp, so could the Intrepid, and be converted to RWD.

I'm not talking about modding a '71 Cadillac... I am suggesting that GM could build a big, powerful car that was still light and could meet CAFE. If the hobbyists could build one using 40 year old parts, GM should be able to do better with its army of engineers and economy of scale.

Why does every car has to be 180-196 inches long?

[cire]

If this is actually news and not just rumor or speculation, then the future is not really too bright for RWD at GM:

Link: Visit My Website

Source: GM Inside News

It wouldn't surprise me if GM eventually cancels development of the Alpha platform too. GM simply seems unable to unlink poor fuel economy and RWD for some reason. Since the upcoming next gen SRX switched to the FWD based Theta-Epsilon platform and there are rumors that the next gen Escalade might be based on a modified Lambda platform, I also wouldn't be surprised if the sub-CTS car series (sedan, coupe?, and wagon?) didn't end up on the SWB version of the Epsilon platform (or even worse, Delta). Instead of getting a true C-Class or 3-Series fighter, Cadillac might end up with a next gen BLS instead that might possibly struggle to compete against the Audi A4. Hopefully the CTS series stays on Sigma (like the linked article suggests) since it may well become the flagship series at Cadillac in the future (the DTS/STS replacement has been delayed and it wouldn't surprise me if they cancelled that one too). Cadillac really needs their flagship car series to remain on a RWD platform. Between the corporation's current financial struggles, the reality of government interference in the corporation's product plans through bailout money agreements, the current state of the world economy, and the threat of upcoming CAFE standards, GM's future product plans might unfortunately hold little excitement for traditional enthusiasts. The times we are currently in seem to be really sad ones indeed.

[Camino LS6]

If that happens, my current ban on buying GM will become permanent.