The oppressive conformity of the sedan

[Robert Hall]

I've had a mix of 2dr coupes, 2dr SUVs, 4dr SUVs, 4dr sedans, and 3- and 5-dr hatchbacks over the years. All have their pluses and minuses. I prefer having a 4dr sedan or 4dr SUV for a daily driver, just easier to get in and out of in a parking garage or lot, easier to haul people and dogs around when I need to... but I will always have coupes for fun.

[Camino LS6]

I recently traded my Corvette and bought a sport sedan. On the first drive, I realized that the sport sedan is the best of all worlds. I need to carry my family, or a dog or two if need be. I want a fast car with a big V-8. I need a roomy car. I want a car with great handling. I needed and wanted a car that offers alot of features and value for the money with some exclusivity. I don't feel oppressed or like I am comforming to anyone with my new four door vehicle. In fact, I hardly even think of the type of vehicle it is, and I cannot see the rear doors from the driver's seat. I can only feel the shut of a rear door when my daughter and her friends pile in the back when I pick them up from school. I quickly forget its a 4 door sedan whenever my daughter's friend Ozzie tells me to floor it and I hear that big V-8 underfoot.

My next purchase will be a coupe for my daughter (Camaro LT2). I am glad to have the opportunity to choose which type of vehicle I wish to purchase. I think it shows that the auto industry does provide plenty of choice out there for everyone to find the vehicle that fits their needs (first) and wants (second).

It's the exclusion of the other bodystyles that irritates me, KC. I would always choose any other bodystyle over a sedan given the choice. Yet I've been shut out of so many great cars because they were only offered in my least favorite form.

It ticks me off.

[Satty]

4 people in a MINI Cooper sucks. Entry sucks. The drive sucks. Exit sucks.

4 people in a Prius is a breeze. Entry is a breeze. The drive is a breeze. Exit is a breeze.

8 people in a LeSabre Estate is in between. Entry sucks. The drive is a breeze. Exit sucks. Blame having to crawl in through what is essentially a cargo door.

[Camino LS6]

4 people in a MINI Cooper sucks. Entry sucks. The drive sucks. Exit sucks.

4 people in a Prius is a breeze. Entry is a breeze. The drive is a breeze. Exit is a breeze.

8 people in a LeSabre Estate is in between. Entry sucks. The drive is a breeze. Exit sucks. Blame having to crawl in through what is essentially a cargo door.

I don't want 4 people in my car.

If I did, I'd drive a Suburban.

[Satty]

Its a reality for most of the market.

[Camino LS6]

Its a reality for most of the market.

I don't care about most of the market when my money is involved.

Least-common-denominator thinking ticks me off.

And I won't pay for its products.

[Sixty8panther]

1. The only reason why I strongly dislike 4-door sedans is their epidemic-level takeover of the market.

2. I just strongly dislike fat, obstructive pillars, if a 4-door hardtop was offered in say the G6 or CTS

I would prob. prefer it over a coupe...

3. The lack of a station wagon or coupe in products like the 300C, Cadillac Sigma, Impala SS & the

otherwise awesome G8 is a pricey mistake for GM & team USA.

[Intrepidation]

1. The only reason why I strongly dislike 4-door sedans is their epidemic-level takeover of the market.

2. I just strongly dislike fat, obstructive pillars, if a 4-door hardtop was offered in say the G6 or CTS

I would prob. prefer it over a coupe...

3. The lack of a station wagon or coupe in products like the 300C, Cadillac Sigma, Impala SS & the

otherwise awesome G8 is a pricey mistake for GM & team USA.

Well the 300C in Europe does have a wagon version, which apparently sells better than the sedan. We had a version, it was called the Magnum and every auto rag loved it. However people in America are dumb $h!s and think they need ground clearance for the off roading they'll never be doing.

As for coupe, that's what the Challenger's role is. Although a modern (not retro) Chrsyler coupe would be sweet...but in that case I'd rather it be the Firepower.

[Camino LS6]

To my way of thinking, if I have to have 4 doors, I want a tailgate out back.

Sedans just irk me.

[K.C.]

It's the exclusion of the other bodystyles that irritates me, KC. I would always choose any other bodystyle over a sedan given the choice. Yet I've been shut out of so many great cars because they were only offered in my least favorite form.

It ticks me off.

I see your point with the limiting of choices in body styles, and I understand where you are coming from since your hey day was back when cars in every category were offered in several body styles ranging from coupe, sedan, wagon, convertible. Unfortunately for you and those who agree with you, times have changed. That being said, had a wagon version of the car I recently bought been available, as it is in other markets, I would have chosen that body style because of the increased functionality, and the increased exclusivity of a high performance wagon. But, with the automotive market the way it is, I am just happy with the availability of a sedan with world class performance at a great price. In lean times, performance models tend to go away in many manufacturers portfolios, and I am happy with what's available. I guess I figure I have no control over what models are available because I am fortunate enough not to work in the auto industry. Thank God for that.

Life is good.

[Drew Dowdell]

4 people in a Prius is a breeze. Entry is a breeze. The drive is a breeze. Exit is a breeze.

That must be a blast on a long uphill slope.

4 people in an '85 Toronado was fine. Entry is above average. The drive is effortless. Exit is above average.

4 people in an '85 Continental was fine. Entry is above average. The drive is effortless. exit is above average.

4 people in a '94 Cutlass convertible 2x2 was fine. Entry was easy. Seats were some of the most comfortable I've ever had. Exit was easy.

4 people in an '04 CTS, everything perfect.

I've alternated coupe, sedan, coupe, sedan..... Coupe has never been the huge disadvantage you make it out to be for me.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The next time I spend a good chunk of money on a car, it will probably be a 2 seater. Those are still coupes right?

At least we know they will always have only 2 doors.

The sedan has it's purpose, but they are so abundant I can just go get a used sedan for a couple thousand. But if I'm spending big money on a car, it's going to be a coupe.

Edited March 27, 2009 by CaddyXLR-V

[Intrepidation]

I'm not one to get hung up one the number of doors so much as the design of the vehicle. It can have however many doors it wants if it looks sexy.

[Satty]

That must be a blast on a long uphill slope.

It actually is a lot like the LeSabre. Just get in the right hand lane and pray.

[regfootball]

Well the 300C in Europe does have a wagon version, which apparently sells better than the sedan. We had a version, it was called the Magnum and every auto rag loved it. However people in America are dumb $h!s and think they need ground clearance for the off roading they'll never be doing.

As for coupe, that's what the Challenger's role is. Although a modern (not retro) Chrsyler coupe would be sweet...but in that case I'd rather it be the Firepower.

magnum is indeed one of my faverit cars. i wish we sould get the 300 wagon here.

[regfootball]

so let's say its colder than $h! outside with snow on the ground and you want to pick your kid from school, or other similar scenario....where you pull up to the side of the curb and need the person to get in the car into the back seat fast.

major inconvenience if you are in the coupe. gotta get out of the front and seat and unbuckle. gotta move the seat forward and watch someone's ass get into the back in front of your face. then wait for them to wiggle into place and then you are standing in a stiff cold snowy breeze and have to get your feet messy and back into the car and buckle up and situated again.

with four doors, you stay in the car unscathed while somone quickly opens the rear door and gets in and out.

not worth it, most folks say. the only reason coupes sold was a perceived style advantage. now adays there are so many good looking sedans and enough ugly coupes that 4 doors actually are more visually attractive to most folks. altima coupe or passat CC?

malibu sedan or g6 coupe?

stylistically and functionally its just tough to make a case for the 2 door. and that is why most of the time people want 4 doors.

Edited March 28, 2009 by regfootball

[Satty]

Really? The best case for the sedan is, "I dont want to be cold"? This really is a nation of pussies. As I mentioned in another thread, we need at least one sedan, or something with a bit of room in back, for nights like tonight when I take the 3 members of my team at work who aren't going to be fired in the coming week out for a "night of bonding" that involves a casino, some booze and Waffle House. Also, when my fiancee and I go out with friends or have to pick people up from the airport. Never once have I thought to myself, "Wow, I despise having a coupe because I have to deal with the minor inconvenience of undoing my seatbelt." That might have been the most asinine thing I've ever read.

[regfootball]

Sports cars and trucks dont pay the bills. If you need proof of that, just look at the last decade.

We'll probably keep the Prius 4 more years, just depends on circumstances.

in the 010 prius thread you go to great lengths to justify the prius as godlike based upon user convenience and comfort factors. and then in this thread suggest that one example i use as user convenience and comfort is not a reason to justify four doors vs. two. lets weld shut the rear two doors on your prius and now lets see if user convenience matters.

To be perfectly honest, if we could live with 2 coupes, I would've bought that green one on the spot. Alas, there are times when we need easy back seat access and a little cargo room.

in other words, you just said you want the convenience of a sedan.

4 people in a MINI Cooper sucks. Entry sucks. The drive sucks. Exit sucks.

4 people in a Prius is a breeze. Entry is a breeze. The drive is a breeze. Exit is a breeze.

8 people in a LeSabre Estate is in between. Entry sucks. The drive is a breeze. Exit sucks. Blame having to crawl in through what is essentially a cargo door.

wow.

the cold example i used was one instance where the convenience of 4 doors comes into play for a lot of people. it dont matter whether its hot or cold, easy access to the rear matters for a lot of people....and you contradict yourself in the same thread. you call people who want four doors pussies but yet you say you like the convenience of it. most folks want their only car or both their cars to have the same level of user convenience and that doesnt make them pussies.

hypocrit. because you apparently are a pussy too, you own a 4 door!

face it, you got the prius to be a follower of that bunch and the mini to be a follower of that group too. its easy to defend any decision to make purchase decisions based upon wanting to be accepted as part of some 'in' group. i suppose that genesis coupe will be a nice group to join too, the 'my new asian coupe is better than the detroit coupe' crowd.

but you just said you can't have two coupes, right.

in the past you said the mini was enough for real use in other threads but your quote above seems to intimate you're not happy with it in that regard? Which is it? Are you Bill Clinton or Obama?

that sports car mini 'don't pay the bills' does it.

ask a honda element owner if they wouldn't mind two real rear doors and not having to undo their seat belts to let someone in.

Edited March 28, 2009 by regfootball

[Satty]

There are passenger related advantages to a sedan. I've admitted that. Getting 4 adults into a 4-door is far easier than into a 2-door, and they generally have more room in a 4-door, hence the keeping of the Prius. Our friends and co-workers appreciate the idea of not taking 2 cars everywhere. Not having to stand up isn't a comfort or convenience factor, its a laziness factor.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Satty

[ocnblu]

Sedans look right at home in retirement villages.

[balthazar]

There should be a lot more 2- & 4-dr versions of the same mainstream cars.

However, I do think the instances of putting 4 adults into one car are greatly overstated for most people. Most instances of a car trip have 2 or less occupants, I'm willing to bet.

And if there were decently-sized mainstreams cars available, the 'disadvantages' of getting into a 2-dr would be far less. IE: if there were 2 in the front seat of my B-59, the passenger would not have to exit the car to tilt the seatback forward enough to allow the 3rd to get in the back.

[Camino LS6]

It just makes a ton more sense to build coupes and sedans (along with wagons etc.) on the same platform.

Why this basic lesson has been lost lately perplexes me.

Recent coupes have been stand-alone and more expensive. They then are expected to set the world on fire in sales - that's just stupid.

Adding a coupe or wagon to an exisitng platform is the most cost-effective way to make such froms available and maximizes choice within a nameplate.

Such practices should be the norm rather than a rarity. The sales numbers for any nameplate using this approach will be higher and the customer base broader.

The sedan-only trend is pure foolishness.

Penny smart and pound foolish.

[balthazar]

>>"Why this basic lesson has been lost lately perplexes me."<<

Agreed. It's high time a compression occurs to the point that more styles are built on the same platforms- the constricted market has already pointed that way, but more and more ground-up cars keeping popping out. Does mercedes really need 7 SUVs?? C- & E- are only 9" different in length- what's the point?? Build one model ( the 'D' ?? :wink: ) to replace both, get the quality up to expectations, and pour the rest into future powertrains.

But the consumer has yet to let go of the 'billion choices = more gooder' mindset, so every model has either/or a unique body/platform. Wasteful & unneccesary.

[Camino LS6]

Such a simple concept...

[Oracle of Delphi]

I would think you would be much more upset about SUV's and CUV's than you would be about sedans ...

[Camino LS6]

I would think you would be much more upset about SUV's and CUV's than you would be about sedans ...

Why would you think that?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why would you think that?

Because you seem to be anti anything that's popular, in the U.S. I see a lot of them on the road too ...

[Camino LS6]

Because you seem to be anti anything that's popular, in the U.S. I see a lot of them on the road too ...

Well, I do think that the boom in SUVs was absurd, but I have no problem with such vehicles existing.

There are too many of them now, but that will change. As for CUVs, I find all of them unappealing but not moreso than minivans. All CUVs, and most SUVs would have been wagons if I had been able to make that choice.

I love the Suburban, and the Bronco, and other such old legends that predate the term "SUV", and see the mainstreaming of this type of vehicle as unfortunate, but I don't feel that they impacted the coupe market in the way that force-fed sedans have.

[ShadowDog]

The argument that manufacturers should produce both 2-door and 4-door versions of the same car, regardless of the lack of demand for 2-door versions is to say that everyone should get what they want from an automobile manufacturer, regardless if few others share their need. In the case of doors, I imagine the bean counters have determined there is less financial justification to spend the development costs of designing a 2-door version for fewer consumers. If otherwise, then it would simply take longer for the development costs to have been recovered before profit can be made. So if manufacturers don't want to spend that extra dough, then society must be to blame.

The only answer to this that I have would be to offer less models in order to satisfy having less development costs, then design 2-door and 4-door versions of the remaining models. This sort of defeats the idea to develop a company to be everything for everybody if there are less models just to satisfy a small market in the pursuit of one thing, style.

To blame the whole situation on that fact that society deems a car more practical to have 4-doors than 2-doors, driving demand for the latter to the point that fewer 2-door models are offered would be correct; however, to whine that you can't have what you want because all of society is too lazy to be satisfied with a 2-door to:

- unbuckle and get out so someone can crouch down and squeeze into the back seat, or;

- constantly require to do the same when making numerous stops to pick up or drop off kids;

- maneuver an infant around obstacles in order to lean into their car seat to buckle them in;

- find more creative ways to insert large or long objects in the back of a vehicle;

...would be a pathetic waste of time. It's too bad that people find 4-door cars easier to live with. It's too bad manufacturers don't think it's worth the extra money to satisfy a small demand. It's too bad one person's style just can't beat a greater number of people's practicality in this manner.

Maybe I'm all wrong. It's not like there's a conspiracy a-foot here. Maybe complaining, speculating and coming up with answers that will be delivered to nobody by nobody will work? Or maybe all the voices of concern could collectively ask of the manufacturer for the good reasons for 'why not more 2-door versions of the same model'? Maybe you'll be satisfied with the reply, likely you won't. They'll likely say, "These are the 2-door versions we currently offer." You'll say you are more interested in 'this or that' model that's only available in a 4-door model. They'll reply with another answer you likely won't be satisfied with. It will likely be related to additional costs they aren't prepared to make. You will leave feeling left out, declaring on a forum that it's a crime and that society is to blame because they're complacent and could help you achieve a higher rank of status with style if they would only realize it's just as easy to do what they do in a 2-door as it is in a 4-door, even though it really isn't.

I agree, my post is pointless... just as pointless as this entire thread.

BTW, adding side doors on pickup trucks must also be pointless because access is just as easy without them. Ask anyone.

[Camino LS6]

Umm what?

[ShadowDog]

Also, something I thought I'd offer after trying to understand how different people use the term 'Coupe' and 'Sedan':

The definition of "Coupe" and "Sedan"

Society tends to change various definitions over time merely by conforming to their use by the majority.

Many definitions of a coupe and a sedan will define the coupe as a two-door or three-door model that is roughly equivalent to the sedan. A sedan almost always has four doors in contrast. Actually there are four-door coupes, and two-door sedans, so the differences between a coupe and a sedan automobile may not always be quite clear.

In reality, a coupe is strictly defined by its interior volume or space. Distinctions between a coupe and a sedan has little to do with doors and are made clear by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), which standardizes definitions of the different types of cars on the market. Measurements of a coupe and a sedan are as follows:

* Coupe equals less than 33 cubic feet (.934 cubic m).

* Sedan is equal to or greater than 33 cubic feet.

Thus a coupe and sedan can be determined by volume alone rather than being determined by number of doors. A two-door car with a larger than 33 cubic foot volume or interior space is essentially a two-door sedan. Likewise, a four-door car with less than a 33 cubic foot volume is a four-door coupe.

Nevertheless, many manufacturers call a car a coupe when they want to evoke a sportier concept for the car. They may include the name coupe in the car, though technically what you are really buying is a sedan. The Cadillac Coupe de Ville is a classic example of what is really a two-door sedan. So it can get difficult to determine the differences between a coupe and a sedan when the word coupe is added to the name of the car.

Some people mistakenly think a coupe and a sedan are differentiated by whether the car has a hatchback rear. While it is true that many coupes have a hatchback opening, usually called a three-door car, not all do. Some have the traditional trunk. Further, there are four-door coupes with a hatchback, but additionally there are four-door sedans with a hatchback, which are more properly called station wagons or simply wagons.

It is untrue that the difference between a coupe and a sedan can be made by counting the number of seats. Some define coupes as having merely front seats, and possibly a removable back seat. Actually coupes can have two rows of seats or one. In contrast, the sedan always has two rows of seats, but the distinction between a coupe and a sedan can’t be made here because of the variation of rows of seats in the coupe.

The best bet is to stick with the car’s interior volume, when differentiating between a coupe and a sedan, rather than worrying about what the car is named. When choosing a car it may matter little what it is called. Usually what does matter is the car’s performance, space for passengers, and ease of use, rather than whether a car is a coupe or a sedan.

[Camino LS6]

Also, something I thought I'd offer after trying to understand how different people use the term 'Coupe' and 'Sedan':

The definition of "Coupe" and "Sedan"

Society tends to change various definitions over time merely by conforming to their use by the majority.

Coupe or sedan determined by volume?

Absurd.

The rest of the definition is era-sensitive and mostly splitting hairs at this point in time.

For practical purposes, a coupe has 2-doors and a sedan 4.

[balthazar]

That passage RE coupe/sedan IS completely absurd.

IIRC, it was the EPA, not the SAE that determined that interior volume should mean something as far as what a car is called. And who can look at a car, estimate the interior volume, and call it whichever ? Utter nonsense.

For a hundred years, these terms were descriptors of body style. 70 years ago, there were dozens & dozens & dozens to clarify. But the definition of 'coupe' is derived from 'close-coupled', and RE modern body design- this is aptly applied to cars such as the Corvette & the Viper.

>>"Actually there are four-door coupes, and two-door sedans"<<

Loads & loads of 2-dr sedans- most 2-dr on the market are 2-dr sedans, no matter how much their manufacturer wants you to call it a 2-dr coupe. For EX: BMW 3-series 2-dr is a 2-dr sedan- no buts about it. Don't sound as sexy, tho.

4-door coupes, however, are an oddball coachbuilt rarity, and no; mercedes doesn't build one.

Then again, calling a hatchback a "3-door" car, as if one climbed in each of the 3 portals, is likewise ridiculous... but that persists too.

-- -- -- -- --

>>"For practical purposes, a coupe has 2-doors and a sedan 4."<<

Yep- that's the long-n-short of it for most people. It works.

[K.C.]

You say sedan. . I say saloon.

You say coop. . I say coupe

You say wagon. . I say estate

Lets call the whole thing off.

[Camino LS6]

[ShadowDog]

Yeah, I had an idea that would be the response. I just thought I'd point out that I tend to get varying descriptors, depending upon who I'm talking to and where on the world they live. I almost feel like I need a reference table to remember who is likely to use which term to describe which body style.