The oppressive conformity of the sedan

[Camino LS6]

It probably ticks me off more than any other aspect of the current automotive industry.

I

HATE

4-doors!

Why must every damn car have four freakin doors?

I would choose any other bodystyle over the bland sedan, it is absolutely lame that so many cars are only offered in that oh-so-boring form.

Over the past few decades, we have lost so many opportunities to have had interesting versions of cars that restricted to sedan-only form.

Imagine what a b-body Impala SS coupe and convertible would have been like.

Or more recently, a G8 Coupe ( or wagon , or convertible, or the ST) could have given me an option other than the nuclear one I've chosen.

But no, all we get is three versions of a *&$$$##$@ SEDAN!

Screw the masses, and the one-size-fits-all laziness of the manufacturers.

Give me something interesting for a change.

Rant over - thanks for listening.

[Intrepidation]

Well GM has, for the moment, the Camaro and CTS coupe coming.

Chrysler has the Challenger (and I think even with four doors, the Charger is anything but boring, plus there's that shop that's making it into a coupe).

A Warngler has 2 doors. Hell it can have no doors!

Ford has the Mustang, maybe a future MKR

Mercedes has a few coupes, even a couple hardtops that haven't been bastardized yet.

Audi has the sexy A5 and R8 (probably a bit too pricy)

BMW has the 3 series coupe and 6 series and Z4.

Porsche has the 911 and Boxter.

Scion has the tC

Infiniti has the G35

and so on.

[Camino LS6]

Pretty slim pickings.

[capriceman]

when your fat and old its easier to get in the back

[Camino LS6]

So, only fat old people buy cars?

[capriceman]

yeah because they are the only ones getting loans for cars. or pay straight cash. which if they make a next gen solstice/sky redline/GXP i will write the $35,000 check they day I can order it. The current one gets me everyday can't wait for whats next.

[Croc]

Really, most people carry more than one passenger regularly, especially married couples, couples with children, and anyone who socializes with their parents or in-laws. As such, a sedan is the most practical vehicle type, with the most appeal, and therefore the most potential sales. And it's not like days of old where sedans uniformly drive poorly; many brands offer fun-to-drive sedans now.

[ocnblu]

Strange but I too hate a sedan and will resist buying one for the rest of my life... but a 4 door SUV/crossover is fine w/me.

We need more coupes. G8, Malibu and LaCrosse from GM, Fusion/Milan from Ford, and Avenger from Chrysler.

[Enzora]

I find driving a coo-pay to be quite beneficial when it's time for group activities where my friends and I all carpool. I rarely have to drive because my friends don't want to squeeze into a cramped backseat. Of course, that might also have something to do with the fact that they don't want to listen to heavy metal at loud volumes, but that's a story for another day. . .

Edited January 12, 2009 by Enzora

[balthazar]

Camino's point hit me back when Pontiac starting offering a 4-dr GP.

I agree- we need more 2-drs.

Of course a big part of the problem is that modern cars have gotten so small & cramped, the practicality of a 2-dr has been effectively damned. And I'm not even that big on that degree of practicality.

[Drew Dowdell]

Of course a big part of the problem is that modern cars have gotten so small & cramped, the practicality of a 2-dr has been effectively damned. And I'm not even that big on that degree of practicality.

!! Getting into the back of the final generation Riv wasn't fun even when I was young and limber!

[Z-06]

DF,

You forgot to Add Camry Solara, and Honda Accord 2dr. What a fine piece of machinery the former is.

I think sedans and now the crossovers are for the people who agree with conformity or have heard mentality. I remember my ex used to take her toddler niece and nephew in a 4th gen F-body and never once bitched of having a four door. She said it took her a couple of minutes more to load the kids for not having an extra pair of doors. But the satisfaction of driving the two doors was far better.

I prefer a coupe. You have a rigid body structure, plus it gives an appearance of being racy, despite some being not so.

[Lamar]

:shrug: Like Oldsmoboi said, I was never fond of two doors, even when I was small and had little to no problem fitting into the back seat.

As someone who has customarily shuttled people around as the driver (why do few of my friends like driving?), I've found 4 doors to be much less of a hassle, especially in my adult years.

[vonVeezelsnider]

Camino's point hit me back when Pontiac starting offering a 4-dr GP.

I agree- we need more 2-drs.

Of course a big part of the problem is that modern cars have gotten so small & cramped, the practicality of a 2-dr has been effectively damned. And I'm not even that big on that degree of practicality.

You've nailed how I feel on this issue. I think there needs to be a Malibu Coupe at the very least, but in terms of my own personal preferences.... I will always buy sedans, mainly because of practicality, space etc. Most of the new cars cars that I really like today are sedans (CTS, DTS, Lucerne, 2010 LaX, Malibu, 2010 Taurus, Fusion, Impala, G8) and I don't think I'd like to see many of them in Coupe form (CTS, G8 and maybe the Malibu)

[Camino LS6]

Really, most people carry more than one passenger regularly, especially married couples, couples with children, and anyone who socializes with their parents or in-laws. As such, a sedan is the most practical vehicle type, with the most appeal, and therefore the most potential sales. And it's not like days of old where sedans uniformly drive poorly; many brands offer fun-to-drive sedans now.

The tyranny of the masses, and the death of individuality.

Choices are good - we need more of them.

And GM was positioned better than anyone to offer them - but theyv'e squandered that advantage, and now it has vaporized. In their slavish devotion to the dream of volume, they have killed creativity in their products. They have become terminal followers instead of the groundbreakers they should be.

Grovelling at the altar of the least common denominator will be their undoing.

[Robert Hall]

Well, as Reg would say, women (and couples w/ kids) influence the majority of car purchases, so practicality wins out.

I've had a mix of 2dr coupes, 2 and 4dr SUVs over the years. For daily commuter use, 90% of the time it's just me in the car, I prefer a 4dr SUV or 4dr luxury sedan for practicality's sake because of:

1. parking lots and parking garages. Almost everywhere I've worked, I've parked in a garage, and occasionally surface lots. A 4dr is just plain easier to get in and out of in tight parking than 2drs.

2. And when I go out to lunch or dinner w/ a group of people and drive, a 4dr is just easier to get people in and out.

And it's not like in the old days when 4drs were usually boring...their are a lot of great sport sedans out there--Audis, BMWs, the G8, Charger, etc to name a few.

I figure I will always have at least 3 cars--- a 4dr medium-to-large luxury sedan for a daily driver, a 4dr SUV for a winter daily driver and occasionally hauling stuff, and a fun coupe or convertible for weekend and occasional use. For the last 8 years, I had the 4dr SUV and 2 sports coupes.

Edited January 12, 2009 by moltar

[capriceman]

although its not a great example but,

Impala - Monte Carlo The sedan got more sales.

I'm sorry to all of you but "Big Car" companies have to settle at mediocrity, Its what sells to the masses. We are a special group that never wants to settle on the bland crap they put out but they can't specialize a car for each and everyone of us because overhead would be insane and just not practical. GM sells millions of cars so they do something right. I know you will say BMW, but there not average and don't come close in sales. Toyota the build blando-Sedans and they've done very well. GM can't afford to make all these niche cars and until coupes sell in masses they won't build um.

I think the G6 sedan out sells the coupe and same with the cobalt as I see them on the roads more and i understand that's not the best measurement.

[Intrepidation]

Ideally I want 2 coupes, a sedan, and a wagon. Maybe a truck too. I'm so ambitious.

[Camino LS6]

although its not a great example but,

Impala - Monte Carlo The sedan got more sales.

I'm sorry to all of you but "Big Car" companies have to settle at mediocrity, Its what sells to the masses. We are a special group that never wants to settle on the bland crap they put out but they can't specialize a car for each and everyone of us because overhead would be insane and just not practical. GM sells millions of cars so they do something right. I know you will say BMW, but there not average and don't come close in sales. Toyota the build blando-Sedans and they've done very well. GM can't afford to make all these niche cars and until coupes sell in masses they won't build um.

I think the G6 sedan out sells the coupe and same with the cobalt as I see them on the roads more and i understand that's not the best measurement.

Shooting for the middle every time just guarantees low-margin and heavy competition.

Salvation lies elsewhere.

The over-duplication of the sedan across both brands and companies leads to market over-saturation and an artificially high level of competition for the same buyer.

Throwing all of your chips into that basket exclusively is foolish.

Yes, I do think I have a better answer - but I'll keep it to myself for now.

[Robert Hall]

I think the automakers would build more coupes if there was more demand. There were a ton of coupes of different shapes, sizes, niches 30 years ago. Very few now. The demand isn't there, don't know why, but it is what it is.

[Camino LS6]

I think the automakers would build more coupes if there was more demand. There were a ton of coupes of different shapes, sizes, niches 30 years ago. Very few now. The demand isn't there, don't know why, but it is what it is.

I don't buy that argument.

The sedan has been pushed by all of the manufacturers in an effort to limit costs. The result being that coupes have been only grudgingly produced without the sort of marketing and support any entry into the market would require.

Much like FWD, the sedan has been inculcated into public perception in a fusion of cost-savings and marketing.

In short, the manufacturers have taken the easy way out. But they have also narrowed the scope of the market to their detriment by creating undue competition for a single segment.

This mistaken approach was also what drove the now dead wholesale exapansion of the SUV market.

A balanced portfolio of product would be a superior and sustainable strategy.

Flexibility of that portfolio in production volumes for its components makes far more sense than chasing the center of the market to the exclusion of its other components.

[Robert Hall]

I don't buy that argument.

The sedan has been pushed by all of the manufacturers in an effort to limit costs. The result being that coupes have been only grudgingly produced without the sort of marketing and support any entry into the market would require.

Much like FWD, the sedan has been inculcated into public perception in a fusion of cost-savings and marketing.

In short, the manufacturers have taken the easy way out. But they have also narrowed the scope of the market to their detriment by creating undue competition for a single segment.

This mistaken approach was also what drove the now dead wholesale exapnsion of the SUV market.

A balanced portfolio of product would be a superior and sustainable strategy.

Flexibility of that portfolio in production volumes for its components makes far more sense than chasing the center of the market to the exclusion of its other components.

The thing is, when they have offered coupes, they don't sell well...look at the Grand Prix coupe and Monte Carlo...they didn't sell that well and were cancelled (though I think the release of the GTO was more why the GP 2dr went away). Beyond the occasional 2dr version of a mainstream 4dr (like the Cobalt and Focus), Accord, Altima, etc), the only 2drs that seem to sell well are specific sports coupes with no 4dr version (i.e. Mustang, Camaro, Challenger), sports cars (Corvette, 350Z, etc) or luxury and higher priced sports coupes (3-series, CLK, G37, etc).

The mass market just doesn't seem to demand 'regular' 2drs anymore. i.e. Malibu 2dr? Fusion 2dr? Impala 2dr? LaCrosse 2dr? Would they sell? A G8 2dr badged as a G8 GTO probably would sell, though.

But I can definitely see your point about production rationalisation... if the 2dr is only 10-20%, it makes sense to only have the 4dr. It's good business to focus on the profit centers.

One thing that is interesting about how carmakers work in different markets is how much more diverse the Astra (or Focus) lines are in Europe--3drs, 4drs, 5drs, wagons, coupe-convertibles, etc. It seems like in some markets automakers can offer a broad range of bodystyles because the sales are there, in other markets, the sales aren't there.

Edited January 12, 2009 by moltar

[Camino LS6]

The thing is, when they have offered coupes, they don't sell well...look at the Grand Prix coupe and Monte Carlo...they didn't sell that well and were cancelled (though I think the release of the GTO was more why the GP 2dr went away). Beyond the occasional 2dr version of a mainstream 4dr (like the Cobalt and Focus), Accord, Altima, etc), the only 2drs that seem to sell well are specific sports coupes with no 4dr version (i.e. Mustang, Camaro, Challenger), sports cars (Corvette, 350Z, etc) or luxury and higher priced sports coupes (3-series, CLK, G37, etc).

The mass market just doesn't seem to demand 'regular' 2drs anymore. i.e. Malibu 2dr? Fusion 2dr? Impala 2dr? LaCrosse 2dr? Would they sell? A G8 2dr badged as a G8 GTO probably would sell, though.

The thing is, in their myopic concentration on sedans, other variants are afterthoughts at best.

That is a mistake.

[XP715]

Whatever happened to the good old days when practically everything came in tow and four door post, two and four door hardtop, and station wagon form? Something for everybody. What a novel idea.

[Robert Hall]

Whatever happened to the good old days when practically everything came in tow and four door post, two and four door hardtop, and station wagon form? Something for everybody. What a novel idea.

Different time and place..GM could do that when they had 50% market share. Today, most Genericans want their compact or midsize 4dr sedan in silver, white, gold, or black and are happy with that much choice.

Edited January 12, 2009 by moltar

[chevelle454]

I prefer the good ole days when 2 door's ruled the road, especialy 2 door Hardtops.

[HarleyEarl]

So agree....I'm so fatigued by all the 4-door cars around. We need some relief. Now even Porsche is making another one. Stop the insanity.

[HarleyEarl]

I'm sorry, I don't accept the arguement that 2-door demand has dropped off....car makers have to create and market 2-door cars and show the customer he does 'need' one. Convince them with sexy styling and sexy marketing. Tell the customer what he wants. Not the other way around.

Edited January 12, 2009 by HarleyEarl

[Intrepidation]

I'm sorry, I don't accept the arguement that 2-door demand has dropped off....car makers have to create and market 2-door cars and show the customer he does 'need' one. Convince them with sexy styling and sexy marketing. Tell the customer what he wants. Not the other way around.

Uh, no. The consumer should tell the company what they want to purchase. Telling the consumer what they want is how we got to this state of FWD 4-doors in the first place.

[Satty]

I love coupes as much as the next guy, but for most people, they're just not practical. Too hard to get into the back (especially for kids in carseats) and too little space for adults when they get back there. The Monte Carlo, Camaro, Thunderbird, Cougar, Eldorado (which was beautiful in my eyes) all died because sales fell. A few new coupes have popped up in the last decade (Infiniti's G, the Tiburon, BMW 1-Series come to mind) that have sold well enough to justify their existence, but none of them would be here if it weren't for a larger, 4-door counterpart because thats where the sales are.

[ocnblu]

I say the carmakers could save much money by offering more variations on fewer platforms... like in the old, old days. Make two flexible platforms with any number of variations... that's the ticket.

[Satty]

They would have to be crazy-flexible in order to meet worldwide demand. Europe would still want their tiny cars with diesels, and they would have to meet their pedestrian safety standards, while Americans wouldn't be willing to buy anything that small, they'd have to start two sizes up (at least) from what Europe got, and go three or four sizes larger.

[Camino LS6]

The point is that absolutes and "all the eggs in one basket" are bad ideas.

Flexibility with variety and innovation is the way to go. If you don't test the edges of the market, you'll always be late to the party.

[Satty]

BTW, I checked the sales ticker, Honda and Nissan dont separate Accord and Altime sedan sales from coupe sales, but the G Sedan sells about three times what the coupe sells.

[Camino LS6]

BTW, I checked the sales ticker, Honda and Nissan dont separate Accord and Altime sedan sales from coupe sales, but the G Sedan sells about three times what the coupe sells.

The proper way to look at that is that the coupe adds to the sedan's numbers.

[Cory Wolfe]

I do miss only having two doors. I rarely open either of my back doors and it's usually just because reaching behind a non-flip-forward seat is a bitch when I need to grab anything. I could go for a nice 240SX when it comes time to replace the Jetta.

Edited January 13, 2009 by blackviper8891

[gm4life]

I do happen to like the G6 the best in coupe form. Give me the 2009.5 refresh and 2.4L with the six speed automatic it would be fun and stylish. It is one of the nicest looking FWD two doors on the market. I liked coupes until I had kids, a wife basically before I had a life. I wanted my 90 GP to be a coupe or a Bonneville SSE but that never happend. That is life.

Edited January 13, 2009 by gm4life

[regfootball]

it's simple. most buyers don't like coupes.

they're all lucky to sell the coupes they do.

if you loathe sedans, then crossovers and suv's must make you batty.

simply put. joe american has only x dollars a month in his checking account. they must get maximum value for their car purchase. function is a major priority. no dollar can be wasted.

most cars are owned by more than one person. those people have kids and co workers and geriatric relatives.

let me see if you'd enjoy me coming to your house and raising the threshold of your bathroom door to 42" above finished floor.

all of a sudden taking a pee begins to be a big pain the ass. just like climbing in the back of a car when its a coupe.

lest you rip me on this. late 60's bonne? early 70's elcamino, 73 vega, 74 vega, 76 chevette, 73 monte, 77 electra (which remained in my person till 94)...95 tird. all coupes. once i got a sedan, it was no looking back. i spent many years of my childhood climbing in the back of the monte and the electra with my sisters and now i think, what the eff was dad thinking?

i have nothing against coupes. finding a gently used last gen cougar with 5 speed intrigues the $h! out of me right now. but to be honest, to justify wasting my money on a vehicle with such poor function, i'd need to be wealthy and need it to be like my 5th car right now.

the astra 3 door i would like if rear window visibility wasn't terrible.

after nights like tonight, you keep thinking awd crossover is the best way to go, even if its ugly and all of that.

Edited January 13, 2009 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

Well Reg, different strokes for different folks.

I would hate to have to live with any of the vehicles you would choose - in fact I'd never buy one.

You are right that I also hate crossovers and "cute utes" as a class, as well as minivans.

I'd never own one.

If I need that sort of utility, it would be a wagon or a Suburban for me.

If I had kids, they'd learn to climb into the backseat of my coupes. I did it, so can they.

[capriceman]

Camino GM many company's tried and it burnt them. Look at sky/solstice sales right now? The GTO? Aztec? SSR? XLR? Thunderbird? NSX? Insight? Crossfire? you can disagree but they all were predicted to be popular but im pretty sure all of them undersold.

[regfootball]

Well Reg, different strokes for different folks.

I would hate to have to live with any of the vehicles you would choose - in fact I'd never buy one.

You are right that I also hate crossovers and "cute utes" as a class, as well as minivans.

I'd never own one.

If I need that sort of utility, it would be a wagon or a Suburban for me.

If I had kids, they'd learn to climb into the backseat of my coupes. I did it, so can they.

different strokes, sure. but how many of you coupe lovers are out there. seems to me the business case is not there to do it. pontiac even killed the grand prix coupe on the last go round. and the GTO (great car) didn't sell either.

Scion Tc is the only coupe i recall selling decently lately. Mini and 3 series too. The last domestic mid priced coupe besides the mustang to sell at all was.......?

IMHO if you want a coupe, the camaro is here and mustang is decent now too. lots of rice coupes out there too. I think the market could tolerate a hardtop convertible riviera coupe.

can nayone find #'s on what %age of the market is coupes these days? 10%?

the g7 GTO concept should be a go in my eyes. but i believe pontiac as a whole should not be gutted.

Edited January 13, 2009 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

Most domestic coupes offered in recent memory (from GM especially) have been largely crap. The GTO, Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang excepted.

Meanwhile the 3 series at their lunch.

[XP715]

If I had kids, they'd learn to climb into the backseat of my coupes. I did it, so can they.

That's funny. My mother didn't own her first four door car ('99 Bonneville) until after I was old enough to drive myself and she didn't need to bring me anywhere. I spent my childhood climbing in and out of the back of a '73 Caprice Landau coupe, a '79 Monte Carlo, and an '85 Eldorado whenever my parents and I all had to go somewhere together. We'd also ride three across on the bench seats of my father's pickup trucks if need be.

[Cory Wolfe]

That's funny. My mother didn't own her first four door car ('99 Bonneville) until after I was old enough to drive myself and she didn't need to bring me anywhere. I spent my childhood climbing in and out of the back of a '73 Caprice Landau coupe, a '79 Monte Carlo, and an '85 Eldorado whenever my parents and I all had to go somewhere together. We'd also ride three across on the bench seats of my father's pickup trucks if need be.

I spent all of my childhood climbing in and out of the back seats of two Grand Ams, a Regal, and a good ol' Turismo. Course, my back isn't perfect for all the older I am. Unrelated or related.

Edited January 13, 2009 by blackviper8891

[HarleyEarl]

The proper way to look at that is that the coupe adds to the sedan's numbers.

Exactly. Coupes usually sold in fewer numbers historically.

And the Altima Coupe is so dull.

[Delta Force79]

Well I've always had 4 door cars until I bought the Riv, and it is a much more rewarding experience driving a 2 door. Easier entry and exit, better styling (usually) the only downside is tight parking spaces with wide doors. My next car WILL be a 2 door either new or used.

[knightfan26917]

Much like FWD, the sedan has been inculcated into public perception in a fusion of cost-savings and marketing.

Yep, exactly. And, it is a bit sickening ... especially if you don't have a family and don't need 4 doors! So, I'm right there with you on the rant, Camino.

Telling the consumer what they want is how we got to this state of FWD 4-doors in the first place.

*nods*

Indeed!

That's funny. My mother didn't own her first four door car ('99 Bonneville) until after I was old enough to drive myself and she didn't need to bring me anywhere. I spent my childhood climbing in and out of the back of a '73 Caprice Landau coupe, a '79 Monte Carlo, and an '85 Eldorado whenever my parents and I all had to go somewhere together. We'd also ride three across on the bench seats of my father's pickup trucks if need be.

My parents' first 4-door car was a 1982 Chevette, which they bought in 1984, a few years before they wouldn't need a 4-door anymore. Before that, they had a '68 Impala SS, a '76 Monte Carlo and a '81 Monte Carlo SC (now mine)...and my sister and I got along just fine with getting in and out of the back seat of those cars.....

Since that '82 Chevette, Mom and Dad have also had a 1990 Corsica and a 1988 "nova", and their current Cobalt....all 4-doors.

I've only had one 4-door...and that was my '97 Corsica er "malibu".... Other than that, all coupes....and that's what I prefer....

Cort | 35swm | "Mr Monte Carlo"."Mr Road Trip" | pig valve.pacemaker ...RT 66 drive = Sept '09

WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Isn't that the way they say it goes?" ... Jim Croce ... 'Operator'

[2005 EquinoxLS]

I would maybe have loved another Monte Carlo (Yes the FWD one all the RWD lovers hate) but a new one want available so I got the next best thing the Impala. Considering it has had to do a lot of people hauling duties since I got it I am not sorry I got it. Much easier to deal with when you have a group of people. And I am a FWD liker in the weather we have had. That thing goes through snow like a SUV.

[Camino LS6]

I may not love the CTS, but GM is finally doing the bodystyle mix properly with threee variants.

So, WTF happened with the G8 "family"?

Another missed opportunity.

[K.C.]

I recently traded my Corvette and bought a sport sedan. On the first drive, I realized that the sport sedan is the best of all worlds. I need to carry my family, or a dog or two if need be. I want a fast car with a big V-8. I need a roomy car. I want a car with great handling. I needed and wanted a car that offers alot of features and value for the money with some exclusivity. I don't feel oppressed or like I am comforming to anyone with my new four door vehicle. In fact, I hardly even think of the type of vehicle it is, and I cannot see the rear doors from the driver's seat. I can only feel the shut of a rear door when my daughter and her friends pile in the back when I pick them up from school. I quickly forget its a 4 door sedan whenever my daughter's friend Ozzie tells me to floor it and I hear that big V-8 underfoot.

My next purchase will be a coupe for my daughter (Camaro LT2). I am glad to have the opportunity to choose which type of vehicle I wish to purchase. I think it shows that the auto industry does provide plenty of choice out there for everyone to find the vehicle that fits their needs (first) and wants (second).

Edited March 27, 2009 by K.C.