Invicta After All?

[mwaters]

On the Buick website, the vehicles listed are....Enclave, LaCrosse, Lucerne, Invicta....not in future vehicles, but the concept does pull up. Think we'll get a surprise and it will be called Invicta after all?

Hopefully...the ridiculous, meaningless LaCrosse name should die a quick death, just like the W body.

Also, if Invicta is to eventually replace Lucerne, they're going to need something better than LaCrosse. I don't know one import buyer that would EVER consider a "LaCrosse". It will be hard enough to get any young, successful professional to consider a Buick, period. Here's hoping for the best.....

[turbo200]

you're right. lacrosse was a bad name from the start, tarnishing it with bad stodgy product only made the situation worse. I think I would make the decision depend on the final impact of the design of the car itself. if the design is bold enough to stand on its own two feet, then change the name. if it's good looking people will buy regardless of what it's called, but calling it lacrosse might actually hurt the car's chances.

[Paolino]

This was discussed in the other topic quite a bit.

The LaCrosse replacement is being called the LaCrosse. The name has even been shown in spy photos on the rear of the car.

[vonVeezelsnider]

This was discussed in the other topic quite a bit.

The LaCrosse replacement is being called the LaCrosse. The name has even been shown in spy photos on the rear of the car.

Really unfortunate but true. It might be called Invicta in Canada though seeing as LaCrosse is Quebecois slang for something inappropriate.

[mwaters]

This was discussed in the other topic quite a bit.

The LaCrosse replacement is being called the LaCrosse. The name has even been shown in spy photos on the rear of the car.

[mwaters]

Again, hoping it could be a last minute decision. When I picture LaCrosse I picture rental or my local "seniors" grocery store. What I don't picture is a neighbor trading in a: ES350, A4, TL, C-Class, Maxima, Passat.....you get it......

I want Buick to succeed, but it will take new names and radical new marketing to make that happen. I'm 35 and don't know ONE person (other than my parents) who might actually consider thier current lineup (sans Enclave). Sad, really, but true. Rick, et al, don't get that. Minus radical rethinking of the demographic and mission, the brand will quietly die.

[ZL-1]

Invicta would be a good name. It has plenty of heritage, which is something that suits Buick well.

[Paolino]

The naming game is something that bugs me... I almost always hear from those who support Invicta is that it's because it's a powerful name derived from Buick heritage.

Question is, are modern import drivers going to know what Invicta actually means? Probably not. Are modern import drivers going to say, "Ooooh... I remember the Invicta! That was such a powerful, classy car!"? No, because if they're remembering the Invicta well, they're probably in their 50's or 60's, and the latter is the age group Buick has already kissed and is trying to get away from.

Now, being a linguist, I can appreciate the meaning behind the name, but what weighs me to the side of not voting for it, is that to me it's not pleasing to the ear.

That is my opinion.

[Drew Dowdell]

The naming game is something that bugs me... I almost always hear from those who support Invicta is that it's because it's a powerful name derived from Buick heritage.

Question is, are modern import drivers going to know what Invicta actually means? Probably not. Are modern import drivers going to say, "Ooooh... I remember the Invicta! That was such a powerful, classy car!"? No, because if they're remembering the Invicta well, they're probably in their 50's or 60's, and the latter is the age group Buick has already kissed and is trying to get away from.

Now, being a linguist, I can appreciate the meaning behind the name, but what weighs me to the side of not voting for it, is that to me it's not pleasing to the ear.

That is my opinion.

Who cares if the youngins don't know what Invicta means?! If they really want to know, they can go on that new fangled interwebs series of tubes thing they keep yammering about.

What does Camry mean? Elantra? Corolla? Passat?

At least Invicta is a real word.... and it just sounds better than Lacrosse even without the bluehair connotation.

[Paolino]

At least Invicta is a real word.... and it just sounds better than Lacrosse even without the bluehair connotation.

See, that's your opinion. I don't feel it sounds better. Granted I never wanted the name LaCrosse, and would have rather had a new Regal, but I like LaCrosse more than Invicta.

[Intrepidation]

The naming game is something that bugs me... I almost always hear from those who support Invicta is that it's because it's a powerful name derived from Buick heritage.

Question is, are modern import drivers going to know what Invicta actually means? Probably not. Are modern import drivers going to say, "Ooooh... I remember the Invicta! That was such a powerful, classy car!"? No, because if they're remembering the Invicta well, they're probably in their 50's or 60's, and the latter is the age group Buick has already kissed and is trying to get away from.

Now, being a linguist, I can appreciate the meaning behind the name, but what weighs me to the side of not voting for it, is that to me it's not pleasing to the ear.

That is my opinion.

But even if they don't know the history or meaning of Invicta, it's still far better tha LaCrosse.

Invicta name can do two thing the LaCrosse name can't:

1. It can make people who are aware of the nameplate's history take notice and check out the new car wearing the storied name
2. It can raise the collective eyebrow of people who have never heard of it, and are curious

The LaCrosse has several strikes against it:

• It's slang in Quebecois for something inappropriate
• It's attached to a car that was half-assed...
• Based on a dated platform
• Outdated powertrains, especially considering its "premium" intentions
• Poor driving characteristics
• Poor proportions
• Bland styling
• Bland somewhat cheap interior
• Poor packaging

Should the new car really have that baggage attached to it?

[ZL-1]

See, that's your opinion. I don't feel it sounds better. Granted I never wanted the name LaCrosse, and would have rather had a new Regal, but I like LaCrosse more than Invicta.

Don't forget a new Regal could be approved for NA relatively soon.

[Paolino]

Should the new car really have that baggage attached to it?

Well, hmmm... should we change names AGAIN?

Lost the Century and Regal to the name LaCrosse.

Lost the Rendezvous, which had great success, to Enclave.

Lost the LeSabre and Park Avenue names, to Lucerne, which sounds so weak to me, where as Park Avenue sounds so stately.

Now we have 3 vehicles that had to be completely learned. Great, now the names are around, and some people have heard them... let's change them YET AGAIN.

I'll tell you what, you can have you Invicta name.

In 5 years, we'll probably get something else.

[Intrepidation]

Well, hmmm... should we change names AGAIN?

Lost the Century and Regal to the name LaCrosse.

Lost the Rendezvous, which had great success, to Enclave.

Lost the LeSabre and Park Avenue names, to Lucerne, which sounds so weak to me, where as Park Avenue sounds so stately.

Now we have 3 vehicles that had to be completely learned. Great, now the names are around, and some people have heard them... let's change them YET AGAIN.

I'll tell you what, you can have you Invicta name.

In 5 years, we'll probably get something else.

Cars change names usually because they either didn't sell well, weren't very good, or some combination of the two. Cars that have a good reputation or sell because of the name, or are looked upon with respect, tend to keep their names. That's why the Civic is still a Civic, the Silverado is still a Silverado, and the Ram is still a Ram.

[gm4life]

I really think the Invitca name for those who recall will remind them of the great Buicks. For those whom don't (younger folks) along with the Enclave it gives Buick a fresh start, and if a young person thinks LaCrosse they prolly think of the senior citizen discount and that is not good. Whatever it is named from what I have seen it will kick ass. That is all that matters.

[gm4life]

But even if they don't know the history or meaning of Invicta, it's still far better tha LaCrosse.

Invicta name can do two thing the LaCrosse name can't:

1. It can make people who are aware of the nameplate's history take notice and check out the new car wearing the storied name
2. It can raise the collective eyebrow of people who have never heard of it, and are curious

The LaCrosse has several strikes against it:

• It's slang in Quebecois for something inappropriate
• It's attached to a car that was half-assed...
• Based on a dated platform
• Outdated powertrains, especially considering its "premium" intentions
• Poor driving characteristics
• Poor proportions
• Bland styling
• Bland somewhat cheap interior
• Poor packaging

Should the new car really have that baggage attached to it?

I totally agree. Although I like the 08 and up LaCrosse and would not rule out a used Super with the 5.3L LS4 I still think a great new car deserves a fresh name with no baggage attached to it. DF you got this one right.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well, hmmm... should we change names AGAIN?

Lost the Century and Regal to the name LaCrosse.

Lost the Rendezvous, which had great success, to Enclave.

Lost the LeSabre and Park Avenue names, to Lucerne, which sounds so weak to me, where as Park Avenue sounds so stately.

Now we have 3 vehicles that had to be completely learned. Great, now the names are around, and some people have heard them... let's change them YET AGAIN.

I'll tell you what, you can have you Invicta name.

In 5 years, we'll probably get something else.

Enclave is doing quite fine with a new name.

[Paolino]

Cars change names usually because they either didn't sell well, weren't very good, or some combination of the two. Cars that have a good reputation or sell because of the name, or are looked upon with respect, tend to keep their names. That's why the Civic is still a Civic, the Silverado is still a Silverado, and the Ram is still a Ram.

That's true, and sometimes they are changed for other reasons. Zephyr? It had a whole year. So they decided to go Alphanumeric. Just without numbers. And hey, while we're at it, our Navigator sells well, so we'll let that slide from our renaming scheme.

How about the great-selling Rendezvous? Whoops. Let's change it.

Hey, let's revive old names because people will buy them for their heritage... Taurus/Sable?

Cruze?

IMO, people in the past 5 years have made a lot of foolish name-changes.

[cletus8269]

But even if they don't know the history or meaning of Invicta, it's still far better tha LaCrosse.

Invicta name can do two thing the LaCrosse name can't:

1. It can make people who are aware of the nameplate's history take notice and check out the new car wearing the storied name
2. It can raise the collective eyebrow of people who have never heard of it, and are curious

The LaCrosse has several strikes against it:

• It's slang in Quebecois for something inappropriate
• It's attached to a car that was half-assed...
• Based on a dated platform
• Outdated powertrains, especially considering its "premium" intentions
• Poor driving characteristics
• Poor proportions
• Bland styling
• Bland somewhat cheap interior
• Poor packaging

Should the new car really have that baggage attached to it?

not to play devils advicate here but um....

malibu... most sheeple dont even realize the new malibu is a malibu.

[Intrepidation]

That's true, and sometimes they are changed for other reasons. Zephyr? It had a whole year. So they decided to go Alphanumeric. Just without numbers. And hey, while we're at it, our Navigator sells well, so we'll let that slide from our renaming scheme.

How about the great-selling Rendezvous? Whoops. Let's change it.

Hey, let's revive old names because people will buy them for their heritage... Taurus/Sable?

Cruze?

IMO, people in the past 5 years have made a lot of foolish name-changes.

The Zephyer suffered that fate because of the renaming scheme, but the name that replaced it also feature fast improvements in the powertrain department, as well as AWD being added. So it was somewhat warranted.

The Taurs/Sable have poor sales because the product isn't compelling enough.

The Rendezvous may have sold well, but again I doubt it had a stellar reputation in terms of style, performance, and desire outside of the people who owned them. The Renezvous would never have been considering against the RX, but the Enclave can. The new name signifies a new, competitive, more upscale vehicle. It can be hard to move nameplates upscale if people are used to thinking of them as lower tier.

[balthazar]

I like the Invicta name, besides it being a real word, it doesn't sound like a quickie made up one like 'camry' or 'corolla'. I like the name phonetically and I like it because I own one & I groove on what it represented in the lineup: the 'performance' Buick.

But I must correct the record: 'Invicta is in no way a "storied" or 'rich-heritage' nameplate. It came out in '59, ran thru '62, and for '63, the only Invicta was a wagon. Dead by '64. It's predecessor, the Super, and it's successor, the Wildcat had FAR great longevity & image than the Invicta did. The lower-price LeSabre had far more exposure, the higher-priced Electra far more aspiration. Invicta has no negative image, but there's no really notable positive image, either. It was kinda just there.

Still, I vote for it over LaCrosse, Regal or Lucerne.

[Intrepidation]

I like the Invicta name, besides it being a real word, it doesn't sound like a quickie made up one like 'camry' or 'corolla'. I like the name phonetically and I like it because I own one & I groove on what it represented in the lineup: the 'performance' Buick.

But I must correct the record: 'Invicta is in no way a "storied" or 'rich-heritage' nameplate. It came out in '59, ran thru '62, and for '63, the only Invicta was a wagon. Dead by '64. It's predecessor, the Super, and it's successor, the Wildcat had FAR great longevity & image than the Invicta did. The lower-price LeSabre had far more exposure, the higher-priced Electra far more aspiration. Invicta has no negative image, but there's no really notable positive image, either. It was kinda just there.

Still, I vote for it over LaCrosse, Regal or Lucerne.

Poor choice of words to use "storied". My bad.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Dodgefan

[balthazar]

I am not calling you out, DF; others have said the name is good because it has a good history.... but the reality is it doesn't have a bad history, if you get my meaning. Even most general enthusiasts associate very little with 'Invicta" other than it gave birth to the Wildcat.

[buyacargetacheck]

Corolla is a real word -- means the petals of a flower. It is derived from Corona (another Toyota nameplate) which is Latin for crown. "Crown" is also a long-time Toyota nameplate. "Camry" is the phonetic transcription for the Japnese word that means "crown." See a pattern here?

Invicta is alright with me. Like naming a baby, at first the name might seem strange or incongruous. But then a personality emerges and the name and baby (or car) seem natural together. Personally, I thought "Enclave" was a stupid, presumptuous name. Now, I don't feel that way -- it's just a name that refers to the Buick version of a very good crossover.

I like the Invicta name, besides it being a real word, it doesn't sound like a quickie made up one like 'camry' or 'corolla'. I like the name phonetically and I like it because I own one & I groove on what it represented in the lineup: the 'performance' Buick.

But I must correct the record: 'Invicta is in no way a "storied" or 'rich-heritage' nameplate. It came out in '59, ran thru '62, and for '63, the only Invicta was a wagon. Dead by '64. It's predecessor, the Super, and it's successor, the Wildcat had FAR great longevity & image than the Invicta did. The lower-price LeSabre had far more exposure, the higher-priced Electra far more aspiration. Invicta has no negative image, but there's no really notable positive image, either. It was kinda just there.

Still, I vote for it over LaCrosse, Regal or Lucerne.

[Paolino]

This whole conversation reminds me of lines from a tv show between a married couple:

(Big thumbs up if you can name where this is from)

• "I want the names to be unique and euphonious."
• "Fine, Unique if he's a boy, and Euphonious if she's a girl."
• "For your information, those are words, not names."
• "Well they are the prettiest ones you've mentioned yet!"

[cletus8269]

Invicta is alright with me. Like naming a baby, at first the name might seem strange or incongruous.

whoa, you and my english teacher would get along well... shes the only other person i have know to effectively use that word in a sentence hehehe

on topic i wish lesabre had never left the name plate.

[buyacargetacheck]

More proof that hanging out at message boards is not a waste of time:) I like LeSabre too.

whoa, you and my english teacher would get along well... shes the only other person i have know to effectively use that word in a sentence hehehe

on topic i wish lesabre had never left the name plate.

[mwaters]

I'm just wondering why Buick would have "Invicta" front and center under their vehicle lineup, rather than in a "future cars" section where concepts are usually listed.

Any ideas on how they take the marketing "out of the box" and reach for new customers?

If Buick is to be a "core brand", they're going to have to reach new customers. Enclave has done that to an extent, and done so based on styling and packaging. There has to be a "wow" and a "why" for their target market to step away from their Lexuses (Lexii?) and purchase a Buick. Not to be a Debbie Downer, buy they're going to have to justify thier purchase to friends.

Certainly if the product is compelling, there's argument #1. But I still think a top flight marketing agency and enough $$$ (there's a problem) could take the brand perception in a new direction. I say make a play on the past w/ the gorgeous Buicks of the 50's and 60's, but there also needs to be a tangible reason to choose Buick over its competitors - whether that be technology, styling, performance.....

Your typical Lexus ES350 or RX customer is just not going to even THINK about walking into a Buick dealership (and even if they do, there will be a 60-something salesperson waiting to "negotiate" with them). There's got to be a "cool" factor to purchasing the car. Great marketing and consistent, improving product is the only chance, but it will take several model generations to achieve that. The steady horse wins the race......

[Paolino]

I can only hope the faux wood in the cabin is realistic... to me, cheap plood stands out and immediately says economy more than premium or luxury.

[ocnblu]

If the Epsilon II Buick is going to be the flagship in this new, thinner GM, it would be much more fitting to bear the Invicta name than the name of a former lower-level model.

[ZL-1]

If the Epsilon II Buick is going to be the flagship in this new, thinner GM, it would be much more fitting to bear the Invicta name than the name of a former lower-level model.

I don't know if Balthazar was referring to my post but I find at least interesting that me, being European and as far removed of a Buick enthusiast as possible, can recognise the Invicta name right away as a Buick and associate it with Detroit's golden era.

Edited January 3, 2009 by ZL-1

[balthazar]

>>"...can recognise the Invicta name right away ..."<<

IMO, you are clearly more well informed than most, then.

[Robert Hall]

I don't know if Balthazar was referring to my post but I find at least interesting that me, being European and as far removed of a Buick enthusiast as possible, can recognise the Invicta name right away as a Buick and associate it with Detroit's golden era.

I remember the name as a old Buick name ( and I have a couple '61 Invicta model cars), but I also associate the name as a vintage small British car company, and the watch maker.

Edited January 4, 2009 by moltar

[ZL-1]

IMO, you are clearly more well informed than most, then.

Thanks for the compliment, then

On a serious note - Invicta sounds way better than LaCrosse. Masturbation references aside, LaCrosse is an obscure sport while Invicta is a strong sounding word. I'd go for Invicta.

[MyerShift]

Gotta go with Invicta.

Sounds powerful, bold, daring, and different.

[cire]

Gotta go with Invicta.

Sounds powerful, bold, daring, and different.

+1!

Well said! This is the definitive reason to resurrect the "Invicta" name. What a great way to reinforce the revitalization/transformation of the Buick brand!

Edited January 5, 2009 by cire

[InvictaMan]

Again, I vote Invicta, of course. The most important thing is that they quit futzing around and get the product out. The last thing Buick needs to be right now is mysterious and undecided. They need to show strength in product, presentation and management as a GM core brand. Enough mamby pamby, get the show on the road and show buyers why they are chosen as a core brand. How difficult is it to choose a name and market it throughout this development stage. It adds strength to the brand marketing. Buick could definitely benefit from a new advertising agency too. That web site is not nearly dynamic enough, difficult to navigate and totally void of color and excitement. Who needs a "help me choose" tab when there are only three completely different vehicles to choose from. You do not throw up unsupported, unfinished and misleading web pages, it is weak and confusing. I love Buick, please get it right!

[InvictaMan]

Speaking of the web site, here is a perfect example. Devoid of color, excitement. The images are small and do not evoke the emotion of Buick. "How do you want to build?," well gee, I don't know, maybe you should show me how and I might buy your car. And I think that most buyers considering a $30-$40 thousand dollar car know how to spell "which;" I would hope that Buick's advertising agency would at least know how. Has the Lucerne grill changed to be pointed on every trim? If so, they have images of the other grill in the gallery, but the build page shows all trims with the point. This kind of junk should not be up on that site. Sorry, but I am passionate about this.

Link to the Lucerne build page.

Edited January 5, 2009 by InvictaMan

[balthazar]

Good points RE the website, IM; not impressed- and too.... beige.

[Paolino]

Speaking of the web site, here is a perfect example. Devoid of color, excitement. The images are small and do not evoke the emotion of Buick. "How do you want to build?," well gee, I don't know, maybe you should show me how and I might buy your car. And I think that most buyers considering a $30-$40 thousand dollar car know how to spell "which;" I would hope that Buick's advertising agency would at least know how. Has the Lucerne grill changed to be pointed on every trim? If so, they have images of the other grill in the gallery, but the build page shows all trims with the point. This kind of junk should not be up on that site. Sorry, but I am passionate about this.

Link to the Lucerne build page.

What's funny is, if you select to build the Lucerne Super, you get bumped back to an image of a V6 model, with the V6 grille and 3 ventiports on each side.

[Intrepidation]

Good points RE the website, IM; not impressed- and too.... beige.

The website's overall design is fine. However it's the details that seem to be missing, as mentioned by Invictaman. Color schemes are good too, but I agree it feels rather monotone. There's no splash of color to attract your eye from all of the shades of white and beige.

[wildcat]

Ever since the Buick Enclave and its predominant cocoa metallic color seemed to gain attention, that has been about all that Buick seems to know anymore. Presently, Buick's website homepage shows not only the Enclave but the Lucerne and LaCrosse in cocoa brown, too. And I noticed Buick's logo even has a cocoa brown backing. Overkill! (Though I'm happy that the Invicta Concept and the Riviera Concept cars were done in different colors.)

[Robert Hall]

Ever since the Buick Enclave and its predominant cocoa metallic color seemed to gain attention, that has been about all that Buick seems to know anymore. Presently, Buick's website homepage shows not only the Enclave but the Lucerne and LaCrosse in cocoa brown, too. And I noticed Buick's logo even has a cocoa brown backing. Overkill! (Though I'm happy that the Invicta Concept and the Riviera Concept cars were done in different colors.)

Ya, kind of like Mercury's website--everything in silver, or Dodge's website--everything in red.

[wildcat]

You're right, moltar! Although I like how on Mercury's website, when one goes from left to right and rolls the mouse over the different model names, it makes each of them zoom onto the screen and then zoom off when you choose a different model. But the Grand Marquis looks hideous (old and plain from the side, especially when wearing blackwalls).

Edited January 6, 2009 by wildcat

[InvictaMan]

Having been an art director and a creative director for agencies, I can tell you that it is possible to photograph a black car and put it on a beige page and achieve a much higher level of emotion than is expressed on those pages. I personally think the design is uninvolved, flat and less than intuitive (which I think would be important based on the fact that so many critics like to think that prospective Buick buyers don't even know how to turn on a computer.) Some of the photos done for Enclave were more emotional; however, so few in numbers that they became insignificant by the time the brochure came out (way too late in the game) sporting the same PR images. I want to see the 2010 Buick Whatever be presented as sexy and in an artful way, supported with detail images. If you want younger buyers, market to them; although, the truth to consider is that the Boomers and their age bracket are in far greater numbers than young folks for the next several decades. Luckily, they have no desire to be considered old, so youthful marketing appeals to them as well.

I can also tell you that I would have never released something that has the level of mistakes found on that web site. It is especially disappointing that such mistakes remain on a web page, when they can be easily and quickly revised and uploaded. Not right now, when shoppers are looking at the new 2009 models.

[Intrepidation]

Ya, kind of like Mercury's website--everything in silver, or Dodge's website--everything in red.

There's a difference though. Mercury's website has color to help offset the silver and white.

Meanwhile dodge uses high-contrast black and white colors with the vehicles in red to add color and attract attention.

There's nothing wrong with having the lineup shown the same color, it's how you present it.

[VenSeattle]

I actually prefer Lincoln's website over most. I'm mixed on Lexus.

Buick's could be improved a lot, but the basic layout is fine.

[Chris_Doane]

That's a big "no" on Invicta.

[mwaters]

That's the final word from GM? Bummer. I just can't see LaCrosse as the top of the line Buick sedan once Lucerne fades away. Oh well.

[ZL-1]

That's a big "no" on Invicta.

So... does that mean it is to be called LaWanker?