GM is Behind Saturn

[saturnd00d]

Bottom line is that the reason the Astra failed is that it cost too much ( compared to th s-series), and offered less.

For about 17 grand you could have a loaded to the gills S-series.

Yes, the s-series was quite a good car for the money, but it never had that premium feel to it. I should know, I owned one. Parts were more expensive for them since they were on their own designated platform, with their own designated powertrains as well. From a consumer standpoint, they offered good looks but sub-par build quality, so to pay that for a compact car wouldn't be an issue. You felt like you were getting a bargain.

The astra offers nothing sub-par about it. It's still economical, but it's a much better built and looking vehicle. It's reminiscent of a VW-type car. If VW can charge top dollar and have people pay it, why not Saturn (and Opel) with the astra?

Many at the HHR forums have installed a rear roll bar on their cars are quite pleased. Does the Astra already have one possibly?

When I had my 04 ION, I added a rear anti-sway bar alongside the torsion beam (which had an OEM one welded in line with it as well). Made a huge difference in the stability of the car. I'm not exactly sure if the astra has one or not, but that issue aside, the feel of the car while your driving it screams premium. The precision of the shifter compared to the one found in cobalts, ions, etc. is a huge difference for example, the ride quality, the material feel of the interior, the standard features list, there's aot of car for the money. Is it more than it should be priced at? I would agree, but I understand that's because it's an imported car. Therefore, as a potential buyer of one, I'm going to buy it used. Do I feel GM should bring the cost down? Of course I do, and I hope they will, should they continue to develop it for the N/A market. Not doing so would be a huge mistake. Look at the people who bought focus hatches, VW Golfs, Mazda 3 hatches, etc.

Edited December 25, 2008 by saturnd00d

[hyperv6]

I think people who care more about a couple mm difference in panel gaps than about preventing dings and dents are foolish. Personally, I'll take a car with larger panel gaps that still looks new years down the road. Take a car to any crowded parking lot and it's only a matter of time until some inconsiderate person opens his/her door into the side of your car, or neglects to put away a shopping cart which then rolls into your car, or whatever. Who cares about freaking panel gaps when cars are so fragile that they accumulate unsightly dings from normal everyday use?

Oh, and I can't say I ever heard my Saturn's body pop or crack.

And what's the point of having all these different divisions if they're not going to cater to different people? GM has several other divisions for people who care about stupid crap like panel gaps. How about giving those of us who think otherwise a choice?

Sorry but GM is being realistic and trying to get their cars up to the standard of the entire industry.

To a MFG what the car looks like in 5 years is not an issue as long as it did not rust and the paint still shines. Dents are not their issue. Also all the cars dent the same so no disadvantage.

It many not matter to you and a few others how a car it fit together but with car being better made today a wide gap shows up and stands out to most import buyers.

And yes the Fiero's ade noise and the Saturn body panels may or may not have made noise since they were half breeds in plastic parts. But their panels did expand and contract in hot sun light.

Also I suspect the cars are eaisier to make lighter weight with just a supporting fender. This also helps meet the crash strandards with more metal to crumple. You plastick had to be supported and the plastic just shattered in a crash. Not mush crush zone in a injected fender.

[daves87rs]

Agreed.

I want my last to last, and not just the powertrain......

When I bought my wife's Cavalier, I wasn't expecting much. It was cheap, and easy to take care of.

I'm quite happy with the Ecotec inside, but annoyed that I'm going to have to replace both visors and take care of the little bit of rust under a few of the doors.....

Find me a 2003 Civic that has rust on it. (really abused cars don't count..) Or visors that crack.

I'll be putting quite a bit more money into buying a Cruze, like 6 grand or so.

I'm expecting a car that not only runs well, but is going to hold up well over time.

If not, I will simply find a company who can. There is no more excuses.

[thenewdamage]

I do a lot of driving for my job and have never even seen an Astra until I did a google image search a few min ago. And that showed Astra models from Saturn, Opel and Vauxhall. I know thats all GM but still it seems odd to have the same model name like that across different GM divisions even with it being basically the same car.

[hyperv6]

Agreed.

I want my last to last, and not just the powertrain......

When I bought my wife's Cavalier, I wasn't expecting much. It was cheap, and easy to take care of.

I'm quite happy with the Ecotec inside, but annoyed that I'm going to have to replace both visors and take care of the little bit of rust under a few of the doors.....

Find me a 2003 Civic that has rust on it. (really abused cars don't count..) Or visors that crack.

I'll be putting quite a bit more money into buying a Cruze, like 6 grand or so.

I'm expecting a car that not only runs well, but is going to hold up well over time.

If not, I will simply find a company who can. There is no more excuses.

Unfortunatly Hondas in our area are no bargin after 5 years.

Many have worn iteriors and rust around rear hatches etc.

The big problem in this class of car is people buy the, for economy. The at is not just fuel mileage but also not changing oil, washing/waxing or just good plain upkeep on the car. I have found many low priced cars suffer damage just from neglect. When they got a stone chip no one touches ut up etc.

[BuddyP]

I think people who care more about a couple mm difference in panel gaps than about preventing dings and dents are foolish. Personally, I'll take a car with larger panel gaps that still looks new years down the road. Take a car to any crowded parking lot and it's only a matter of time until some inconsiderate person opens his/her door into the side of your car, or neglects to put away a shopping cart which then rolls into your car, or whatever. Who cares about freaking panel gaps when cars are so fragile that they accumulate unsightly dings from normal everyday use?

Oh, and I can't say I ever heard my Saturn's body pop or crack.

And what's the point of having all these different divisions if they're not going to cater to different people? GM has several other divisions for people who care about stupid crap like panel gaps. How about giving those of us who think otherwise a choice?

While I like the tight body gaps, I can think of 4 different reasons why composite panels would've been a benefit to our Aura. When we bought the car, if you look closely at the top there's some indents where someone leaned on the roof or something, then my dumbass backed it into the Alero putting a small crease in the rear fender lip. The scuff was only in the clear and was able to be buffed out, but no way to get the dent out. We also had gotten a door ding in the other rear fender lip. The just recently I had a pair of waterski's fall down off the shelf, cracking the reat tail light, then fell against the ladder which fell onto the rear sail panel putting two dents in it while scuffing the clear coat. The clear could be rubbed out, but will cost me a couple hundred to get the dents out.

Just last year a had a Fiero that I bought just to use as a daily driver. had it during summer, in which I never noticed any creaking, but maybe after 20 years it's all creaked out?

[daves87rs]

Unfortunatly Hondas in our area are no bargin after 5 years.

Many have worn iteriors and rust around rear hatches etc.

The big problem in this class of car is people buy the, for economy. The at is not just fuel mileage but also not changing oil, washing/waxing or just good plain upkeep on the car. I have found many low priced cars suffer damage just from neglect. When they got a stone chip no one touches ut up etc.

Most of the Civics around here seem to be holding up well around here, were michigan salt will eat cars alive......

I don't you'll see people abusing these cars as much anymore, as the days of leasing everything out there is pretty much over..people are going to just have to learn how to take care of them..

Even for this cheap of a car, I take good care of it. I"m sure that there are not many Cavs waxed every few months (when warm, of course), cleaned, and driving with mobil 1 inside.....

I'm expecting 150k out of this car..I hope.

[haypops]

In 1994 I bought both a Saturn SL and a Cavalier. Both cars were good, but the Saturn did last longer, was better performing, and the parts were LESS. Never had a problem with either panel creaking or the supposed large gaps. I would argue that those of you who compare an early 1990's Saturn to a 2009 Astra are just not being "fair". That said , my 2006 steel bodied ION and 2008 HHR are wonderful cars too (so far).

[hyperv6]

While I like the tight body gaps, I can think of 4 different reasons why composite panels would've been a benefit to our Aura. When we bought the car, if you look closely at the top there's some indents where someone leaned on the roof or something, then my dumbass backed it into the Alero putting a small crease in the rear fender lip. The scuff was only in the clear and was able to be buffed out, but no way to get the dent out. We also had gotten a door ding in the other rear fender lip. The just recently I had a pair of waterski's fall down off the shelf, cracking the reat tail light, then fell against the ladder which fell onto the rear sail panel putting two dents in it while scuffing the clear coat. The clear could be rubbed out, but will cost me a couple hundred to get the dents out.

Just last year a had a Fiero that I bought just to use as a daily driver. had it during summer, in which I never noticed any creaking, but maybe after 20 years it's all creaked out?

As a 24 year owner of a Fiero and a past club president of a Fiero club. They creak. It is a well known thing with most of our owners and club members. Also how badly the Fiero rusts out under the plastic skin. Many a member has been burned to find that everything behind the rear axle line is just held up with the fiberglass quarters.

As for hits in the parking lot. They hold up to door dings but many times the panels will crease or spit to where you have to replace the entire panel. It happens more than you think.

Having a lot of time with plastic panels I will say they are not horrible but they are not what will fix Saturn.

Having said that to fix Saturn you do all sorts of things but the bottom line is get them to just make a profit on the volume they are selling at now. Thas is all that is needed. We too often think in terms of volume but many other companys sell less cars of different lines but are making more money. What can make Saturn profitable is the key and nothing more.

As for panel gap every press outlet will rip you if you have poor fit and finish on a new car. While a GM or Saturn fan may forgive the many Civic driving Consumer Reports reading potential Conquest sale will read their report on gaps and just write it off as American poor quality.

Remember the general buyingl public [in the words of Dr House] are idiots when it comes to cars. They only know and believe what they read. They need to be respect as they are because your not going to change them so give them what they want.

Edited December 26, 2008 by hyperv6

[thenewdamage]

As a 24 year owner of a Fiero and a past club president of a Fiero club. They creak. It is a well known thing with most of our owners and club members. Also how badly the Fiero rusts out under the plastic skin. Many a member has been burned to find that everything behind the rear axle line is just held up with the fiberglass quarters.

As for hits in the parking lot. They hold up to door dings but many times the panels will crease or spit to where you have to replace the entire panel. It happens more than you think.

Having a lot of time with plastic panels I will say they are not horrible but they are not what will fix Saturn.

Having said that to fix Saturn you do all sorts of things but the bottom line is get them to just make a profit on the volume they are selling at now. Thas is all that is needed. We too often think in terms of volume but many other companys sell less cars of different lines but are making more money. What can make Saturn profitable is the key and nothing more.

As for panel gap every press outlet will rip you if you have poor fit and finish on a new car. While a GM or Saturn fan may forgive the many Civic driving Consumer Reports reading potential Conquest sale will read their report on gaps and just write it off as American poor quality.

Remember the general buyingl public [in the words of Dr House] are idiots when it comes to cars. They only know and believe what they read. They need to be respect as they are because your not going to change them so give them what they want.

I had a beautiful '85 Fiero GT and never heard a single creak from it. But my '91 Corvette creaked any time I had the roof panel off. Once I had the vette parked on a bit of a slant on the side of the road and when I took the roof panel off the car bowed in the middle enuff it was very noticable. The top edge of the windshield looked like it shifted almost a full inch to the rear. The fit an finish on my Fiero was teriffic. I think it was at least as good as the corvette. My Blazer OTOH was a POS. Unfortunately I dont have the Fiero anymore. I made the mistake of giving it to a son and he trashed it in less than a year.

[hyperv6]

Keep in mind I have shown my car locally and nationally since the early 90's. I spend a lot of time sitting in the hot sun at shows with other Fiero owners. During these times sitting in this hot suimmer sun is when we noticed the noises. We would laugh and joke how the cars were coming alive.

Also note the black cars made the noise more often.

Not all will do it but the fact is the plastic bodies move and grow in heat and cold. THis also creates for poor fit and finish.

To bring out a car today with more than a 3MM gap or uneven gasp the press would be all over it and the car would be labled as what is wrong with Detroit.

There is only one real free pass and that is the Vette. THe XLR does not count since few really care about it and it will die soon enough.

[CARBIZ]

Most of the Civics around here seem to be holding up well around here, were michigan salt will eat cars alive......

I don't you'll see people abusing these cars as much anymore, as the days of leasing everything out there is pretty much over..people are going to just have to learn how to take care of them..

Even for this cheap of a car, I take good care of it. I"m sure that there are not many Cavs waxed every few months (when warm, of course), cleaned, and driving with mobil 1 inside.....

I'm expecting 150k out of this car..I hope.

Am I the only person seeing Civics with the rear bumper hanging off where it attaches to the wheel well? It's a common sight in Ontario. Sorry, but the Civic is a good engine with a crappy car wrapped around it. The bodies do not hold up that well.

[hyperv6]

Am I the only person seeing Civics with the rear bumper hanging off where it attaches to the wheel well? It's a common sight in Ontario. Sorry, but the Civic is a good engine with a crappy car wrapped around it. The bodies do not hold up that well.

Most Civics here are trashed.

The winters just don't do much for them and the 20-30 year old women driving them seldom wash them.

My buddy also makes money on fixing them as they do break down and few want to pay the dealers rates.

[thenewdamage]

Keep in mind I have shown my car locally and nationally since the early 90's. I spend a lot of time sitting in the hot sun at shows with other Fiero owners. During these times sitting in this hot suimmer sun is when we noticed the noises. We would laugh and joke how the cars were coming alive.

Also note the black cars made the noise more often.

Not all will do it but the fact is the plastic bodies move and grow in heat and cold. THis also creates for poor fit and finish.

To bring out a car today with more than a 3MM gap or uneven gasp the press would be all over it and the car would be labled as what is wrong with Detroit.

There is only one real free pass and that is the Vette. THe XLR does not count since few really care about it and it will die soon enough.

That is interesting, I had not thought of the effect of heat absorption while sitting still. Mine was a black one too with gray rocker panels. I am not sure if that was factory though. The only real problem I had was the reverse linkage was always out of adjustment. Oh, and a main seal oil leak too. But I read at a Fiero forum that was a rather common issue. It was painful get in and out of but I do miss it.

[hyperv6]

That is interesting, I had not thought of the effect of heat absorption while sitting still. Mine was a black one too with gray rocker panels. I am not sure if that was factory though. The only real problem I had was the reverse linkage was always out of adjustment. Oh, and a main seal oil leak too. But I read at a Fiero forum that was a rather common issue. It was painful get in and out of but I do miss it.

The manual shift cars are a pain as they age. The shift linkage goes and the Clutch, slave cylinder and clutch peldal all go away and make for a poor $h!ing car without some work.

I bought an auto new not because I wanted it but brcause I knew the GM linkage back int he 80's was crap and did not want any expensive problems later.

The Fiero is a fun car and if you have a good one easy to maintain. But today I see so many rusted out space frames and interiors that atr trashed. TOday the Fiero's are wither really good to new or just wasted. It amazes me how much some people invest in fixing one up when they could have spent less for a low mileage one that has sat in a a garage for 20 years.

I see some low milage 88 GT going for some good prices today.

[daves87rs]

Am I the only person seeing Civics with the rear bumper hanging off where it attaches to the wheel well? It's a common sight in Ontario. Sorry, but the Civic is a good engine with a crappy car wrapped around it. The bodies do not hold up that well.

Hmmm...maybe I'm just lucky?

My co-workers 01 coupe seems to be holding up well...and has 156k to boot.....

[daves87rs]

Most Civics here are trashed.

The winters just don't do much for them and the 20-30 year old women driving them seldom wash them.

My buddy also makes money on fixing them as they do break down and few want to pay the dealers rates.

Ah, any car will look abused if you don't take care of them...there ae some interesting looking Kias and 03+ Cavaliers around here....

[hyperv6]

Ah, any car will look abused if you don't take care of them...there ae some interesting looking Kias and 03+ Cavaliers around here....

My point is Honda's fair no better.

[PurdueGuy]

Also explain to them whrn the body make noise as it pops and cracks in the summer sun as it expands.

I have never once heard Saturn body panels do this...

[PurdueGuy]

That said , my 2006 steel bodied ION

Steel bodied ION? *scratches head* The ION still had polymer panels...

As a 24 year owner of a Fiero and a past club president of a Fiero club. They creak. It is a well known thing with most of our owners and club members. Also how badly the Fiero rusts out under the plastic skin. Many a member has been burned to find that everything behind the rear axle line is just held up with the fiberglass quarters.

As for hits in the parking lot. They hold up to door dings but many times the panels will crease or spit to where you have to replace the entire panel. It happens more than you think.

Having a lot of time with plastic panels I will say they are not horrible but they are not what will fix Saturn.

It honestly sounds like they made major improvements in the materials between the Fiero and the Saturns. There are common rust issues on the first gen SL's rear door sills ('91-'95), but most of the rest of them have very robust spaceframes. I've not seen any broken panels aside from some pretty hard collisions, or lighter hits in extreme cold. Even when that happens, it's cake to replace a panel.

Throw in the further materials advancements since, and I personally think the polymer idea is intriguing. The S-Series started in '91, so the design had to be done somewhere in '90. AFAIK, they didn't really change the panel materials in the time they produced the car, so we're talking about materials from 18 years ago. I would bet money that modern materials could likely be tougher, lighter, less expensive, and with less expansion/contraction = smaller panel gaps.

Edited January 1, 2009 by PurdueGuy

[haypops]

Steel bodied ION? *scratches head* The ION still had polymer panels...

Too much holiday chear I guess.

[SAmadei]

I have never once heard Saturn body panels do this...

However, now that most plastic fendered Saturns are approaching 20 years old, I've seen a lot of them with shattered fenders... likely minor impacts to plastic that has been thermally cycled too many times. And since all these fenders are nearing 20 years old and I have to assume that GM stopped stocking them a decade ago, you aren't going to find a lot of quality replacements.

[daves87rs]

Steel bodied ION? *scratches head* The ION still had polymer panels...

It honestly sounds like they made major improvements in the materials between the Fiero and the Saturns. There are common rust issues on the first gen SL's rear door sills ('91-'95), but most of the rest of them have very robust spaceframes. I've not seen any broken panels aside from some pretty hard collisions, or lighter hits in extreme cold. Even when that happens, it's cake to replace a panel.

Throw in the further materials advancements since, and I personally think the polymer idea is intriguing. The S-Series started in '91, so the design had to be done somewhere in '90. AFAIK, they didn't really change the panel materials in the time they produced the car, so we're talking about materials from 18 years ago. I would bet money that modern materials could likely be tougher, lighter, less expensive, and with less expansion/contraction = smaller panel gaps.

Maybe, but it would be costly...something GM can't afford right now.....

[PurdueGuy]

However, now that most plastic fendered Saturns are approaching 20 years old, I've seen a lot of them with shattered fenders... likely minor impacts to plastic that has been thermally cycled too many times. And since all these fenders are nearing 20 years old and I have to assume that GM stopped stocking them a decade ago, you aren't going to find a lot of quality replacements.

I've played with panels on some of the earliest models in junkyards, and not only do they generally still look almost new (most of the time, a few have clearcoat peel), but they still flex pretty well too. Most of the time when you see a saturn with parts that look bad, it's the hood, roof, and trunk lid, which are all metal.

I'm not saying that going back to plastic is the right decision for GM right now. It could have appeal, though, and I would be interested to see how implementing it today would compare to how it was before. There could come a time when it makes sense again.

There was an article a while back talking about GM considering even using plastic components for some stressed parts, like hinges and such. Panels would be cake, but may take considerable investment to do a car's worth of panels. Still, it seems easier to build a strong, safe car with the spaceframe design, as it's much like designing a roll cage with some panel mounting points on it. It also allows for reduced cost mid-cycle enhancements. (The 2nd & 3rd gen S-Series share identical spaceframes, but have completely unique interiors and exteriors. If I could get a full panel set from an '01-'02 coupe, I could bolt them right up to my '99 and make it look like an almost completely different car.). This could allow for a car to be designed to last 9 years, but with MCEs every 3 years that update the look, feel, and many functions and features of the car. What would require a bigger investment up front may result in lower costs long-term.

[hyperv6]

What ills Saturn is not going to be fixed with plastic fenders.

The cars they have right now are as good as Saturn has ever had. The dealers still sell just as they did in the past. I even had one offer lunch while shopping.

The fact is the original cars were ok but they were pretty much entry level and too limited in models. Now they have moved up scale to wher emany would buy but many remember the some what plain cars they offered before. Note the GM add where the guy looks twice that they are Saturns.

We kno what that ad is about but they still do not put a name on the models in advertising. They need to sell the cars a Saturn models and not just Saturn. Selling Saturn as Saturn worked when you only had two cars. Today they have a lot more to show and offer so market it.

Today the bodys could be made out of Spam as long as the the car holds up and is well priced and reliable. The average buyer could care less if they are plastic or steel.

I have seen a ton of Bonnievilles, Lesabres and Park Aves that have plastic front fenders flapping in the wind The rest of the car is ok but the fender took a hit and shattered. Looks bad if your trying to sell plastic cars.

[vt_hokie]

I have seen a ton of Bonnievilles, Lesabres and Park Aves that have plastic front fenders flapping in the wind The rest of the car is ok but the fender took a hit and shattered. Looks bad if your trying to sell plastic cars.

I think that's a different, less flexible type of plastic on those cars.

[haypops]

I even had one offer lunch while shopping.

My Chevy dealer offered my wife and I breakfast while the HHR was in for warranty work.

The fact is the original cars were OK but they were pretty much entry level and too limited in models

The sedans sold at 50% premium to other GM small cars. The Saturn wagons and coupes were even more pricey.

I understand that Saturn has to go because of its advantageous dealer agreements. I just don't agree with all the hatred and revisionist history around here.

[hyperv6]

My Chevy dealer offered my wife and I breakfast while the HHR was in for warranty work.

The sedans sold at 50% premium to other GM small cars. The Saturn wagons and coupes were even more pricey.

I understand that Saturn has to go because of its advantageous dealer agreements. I just don't agree with all the hatred and revisionist history around here.

The people I know who bought Saturns [i know quite a few] bought them because they were inexpensive. Most times a better deal then a Cavalier. The bottom line was they got them because they were the lowest car payment.

And that was a GOOD THING!

Saturn did a lot of things right but GM gave all the advantages away with too few new products and tried to sell the old cars way too long. Then when they go to replace them they bring us the Ion?

To win a race you need a good start but you also need to finish the race. GM had a great start with Saturn and just never finished. The compitision is too tough in this class not to off the best you can. GM did not offer that.

You can offer great service and plastic bodies or what ever but if your product is too old and too few ypu just can compete in this class. Even the Cobalt is gettin long in the tooth for Chevy. With Honda updating every few years you have to match them.

Edited January 4, 2009 by hyperv6

[Chicagoland]

"Note the GM add where the guy looks twice that they are Saturns. We kno what that ad is about but they still do not put a name on the models in advertising. They need to sell the cars a Saturn models and not just Saturn. Selling Saturn as Saturn worked when you only had two cars. Today they have a lot more to show "

That is problem #1, younger buyers still think the SL's are for sale, and that they were "Saturns" only car. The ad doesn't mention Aura, Astra, etc. and that it's a full line make.

Other issue is the 'dweeb/nerd/geek' buyer image of someone deathly afraid to negotiate a price, so they buy 'one price'. Even if it is too high. Why pay more for an Aura, just for 'touchy-feely' treatment, when a Malibu is a better price. And there are plenty of Chevy dealers that have good customer service.

Saturnfans.com fans are just not supporting the brand enough to get good sales #'s. More 'Saturn dweebs' with a beat up SL are looking else where and maybe they "grew a pair" and now can negotiate for a price!

Edited January 4, 2009 by Chicagoland

[PurdueGuy]

"Note the GM add where the guy looks twice that they are Saturns. We kno what that ad is about but they still do not put a name on the models in advertising. They need to sell the cars a Saturn models and not just Saturn. Selling Saturn as Saturn worked when you only had two cars. Today they have a lot more to show "

That is problem #1, younger buyers still think the SL's are for sale, and that they were "Saturns" only car. The ad doesn't mention Aura, Astra, etc. and that it's a full line make.

Other issue is the 'dweeb/nerd/geek' buyer image of someone deathly afraid to negotiate a price, so they buy 'one price'. Even if it is too high. Why pay more for an Aura, just for 'touchy-feely' treatment, when a Malibu is a better price. And there are plenty of Chevy dealers that have good customer service.

Saturnfans.com fans are just not supporting the brand enough to get good sales #'s. More 'Saturn dweebs' with a beat up SL are looking else where and maybe they "grew a pair" and now can negotiate for a price!

The Saturn dealers sometimes come out better on price overall, depending on the situation. They generally give more money for trade-ins, since they aren't doing the slight-of-hand show that many other dealers do, where they'll give you more off of the price of the car, but give you less for your trade-in. And it's not like Saturn dealers don't have special deals. Sometimes you will get a better price at Chevy, but sometimes you won't.

[cire]

After reading about the launch of the Daewoo Lacetti Premiere on another post topic, I came up with a new direction and purpose for Saturn:

Since there are rumors swirling that Buick will be aligned with Opel (which it should be), Saturn will definitely need a new direction (if GM plans to keep the Saturn brand alive). There is a possible cost effective way to give Saturn a new direction with brand specific products without spending massive amounts of ground up development funds.

The Overall Objective: Return Saturn to its roots as a somewhat quirky and affordable small vehicle brand.

Product Strategy: Split the future GMDAT small vehicles between Chevrolet and Saturn based on body style in North America. Chevrolet will carry the more traditional body styles (sedans and crossovers) that sport the current divisional split grille design and Chevrolet logo. Saturn will carry the more quirky body styles (hatchbacks and MPVs) that sport the Daewoo grille, except the Saturn logo will sit where the Daewoo logo currently resides.

For Example: Chevrolet will carry the next generation Aveo sedan (Gamma), the Cruze sedan (Delta), and the Captiva crossover (SWB Theta). Saturn will carry the next generation Aveo 3-door/5-door (Gamma; possibly named "Signal"), the Cruze 3-door/5-door (Delta; possibly named "Evoke" or "Ion"), and the Orlando MPV (Delta; this vehicle will become the next gen "Vue" in North America). Saturn will only carry these three products. Chevrolet will naturally continue as GM's full scale affordable division.

Plan to Expand Saturn Network: In markets where a Saturn dealership already exists, nothing other than Saturn's new direction and lineup will change. In markets where Saturn is not currently present, Saturn will be expanded into existing Chevrolet dealerships. This will allow all markets access to Saturn products without closing down existing Saturn dealerships.

This plan will accomplish the following goals:

1) Save GM the expense (as well as negative publicity) of closing Saturn.

2) Return Saturn to its more traditional role of a quirky and affordable small vehicle brand.

3) Maintain an exclusive lineup for Saturn. Saturn will be the only division that sells affordable GMDAT based hatchbacks and MPVs for GM in North America.

4) Expand access to the Saturn brand. Saturn will be expanded into Chevrolet dealerships only in markets where Saturn does not currently exist.

5) Give Saturn a new "face". The Daewoo divisional grille that was introduced on the new Daewoo Lacetti Premiere featured in this forum topic will become the new "face" of Saturn. The only exception will be that the Saturn logo will replace the Daewoo logo.

[PurdueGuy]

After reading about the launch of the Daewoo Lacetti Premiere on another post topic, I came up with a new direction and purpose for Saturn:

Since there are rumors swirling that Buick will be aligned with Opel (which it should be), Saturn will definitely need a new direction (if GM plans to keep the Saturn brand alive). There is a possible cost effective way to give Saturn a new direction with brand specific products without spending massive amounts of ground up development funds.

The Overall Objective: Return Saturn to its roots as a somewhat quirky and affordable small vehicle brand.

Product Strategy: Split the future GMDAT small vehicles between Chevrolet and Saturn based on body style in North America. Chevrolet will carry the more traditional body styles (sedans and crossovers) that sport the current divisional split grille design and Chevrolet logo. Saturn will carry the more quirky body styles (hatchbacks and MPVs) that sport the Daewoo grille, except the Saturn logo will sit where the Daewoo logo currently resides.

For Example: Chevrolet will carry the next generation Aveo sedan (Gamma), the Cruze sedan (Delta), and the Captiva crossover (SWB Theta). Saturn will carry the next generation Aveo 3-door/5-door (Gamma; possibly named "Signal"), the Cruze 3-door/5-door (Delta; possibly named "Evoke" or "Ion"), and the Orlando MPV (Delta; this vehicle will become the next gen "Vue" in North America). Saturn will only carry these three products. Chevrolet will naturally continue as GM's full scale affordable division.

Plan to Expand Saturn Network: In markets where a Saturn dealership already exists, nothing other than Saturn's new direction and lineup will change. In markets where Saturn is not currently present, Saturn will be expanded into existing Chevrolet dealerships. This will allow all markets access to Saturn products without closing down existing Saturn dealerships.

This plan will accomplish the following goals:

1) Save GM the expense (as well as negative publicity) of closing Saturn.

2) Return Saturn to its more traditional role of a quirky and affordable small vehicle brand.

3) Maintain an exclusive lineup for Saturn. Saturn will be the only division that sells affordable GMDAT based hatchbacks and MPVs for GM in North America.

4) Expand access to the Saturn brand. Saturn will be expanded into Chevrolet dealerships only in markets where Saturn does not currently exist.

5) Give Saturn a new "face". The Daewoo divisional grille that was introduced on the new Daewoo Lacetti Premiere featured in this forum topic will become the new "face" of Saturn. The only exception will be that the Saturn logo will replace the Daewoo logo.

I almost like this. The return of Saturn to being focused on small cars would be wonderful, IMO. I think we have seen with the Astra, though, that hatches don't sell well enough for Saturn to survive on them. They need sedans too.

[MyerShift]

It's sad the Astra didn't exceed as it should have. No other small car comes close to delivering the quality experience it does. Even VW's Golf doesn't feel as rich or solid.

I must say, since they aren't rocketing off with German Opel product and Buick is most likely to be aligned with Opel now, either Saturn must die or be an outlet for GMDAT.

[ZL-1]

Behind as in supporting, or behind as in waiting to push it over a cliff???

[regfootball]

the reason saturn had to proliferate models was to sustain volume. the S series had huge drops and couldn't sustain the brand. and that was with sedan, coupe and occasionally wagon.

and then this means saturn would get probably any compact pontiac was supposed to in the future.

in my mind you have to continue to have vue, aura, and astra equivalent at a minimum to justify saturn. i think also that the compact saturn then needs to be in a configuration (i.e. sedan) that allows for you to depend on it for volume.

all i know is this. I don't want a chevy typically or a buick. i will buy a pontiac or saturn. (or saab).

Until Buick get a major makeover I don't buy the opel transformation.

I do know this. Tomorrow they announce loyalty rebates and GM card round up. Plus new incentives. So I can finally once and for all see if I can get that Astra I want for as cheap as I want it.

Edited January 5, 2009 by regfootball

[Chicagoland]

With what $$ to 'expand Saturn'? GM CANNOT afford to have 8 full line brands, period.

[regfootball]

key words, FULL LINE

[vt_hokie]

Saturn was about building an American car that could compete with the imports. It was something for us here in the U.S. to be proud of. If the only way to keep it going is to give it European or Korean imports to sell, I say kill it.

[PurdueGuy]

in my mind you have to continue to have vue, aura, and astra equivalent at a minimum to justify saturn.

I pretty much agree, though I could see maybe not having the Aura. Saturn midsizers have never sold that well. I could see having a subcompact car. One thing that doesn't seem clear (though I admittedly haven't read everything about that situation) is if the relationship between Buick & Opel is a full one, or partial. I'm not sure I can see a Buick Corsa, or even Astra, though maybe that is the kind of thing that Buick actually needs. I could see Buick getting all the larger Opels, Saturn getting the smaller ones. That keeps the investment in Saturn small...

[haypops]

That keeps the investment in Saturn small...

I wonder how much of Saturn's future existence is tied to investment or more likely making it look like GM has changed for the public and congress. In other words the single fastest way to eliminate 400 dealers is to eliminate Saturn. Is it all about Show?

[BigPontiac]

I wonder how much of Saturn's future existence is tied to investment or more likely making it look like GM has changed for the public and congress. In other words the single fastest way to eliminate 400 dealers is to eliminate Saturn. Is it all about Show?

Or because Saturn Corporation can be shutdown independently of General Motors Corporation, whereas the "brands" don't necessarily have that option. Put Saturn into bankruptcy, lose the dealers, redeploy the Opel product to other North American brands with a larger dealer network.

[PurdueGuy]

Or because Saturn Corporation can be shutdown independently of General Motors Corporation, whereas the "brands" don't necessarily have that option. Put Saturn into bankruptcy, lose the dealers, redeploy the Opel product to other North American brands with a larger dealer network.

I was under the impression that the Saturn Corp no longer existed. Saturn was absorbed into the rest of GM a while back, and thus died the separate UAW agreement.

[BigPontiac]

I was under the impression that the Saturn Corp no longer existed. Saturn was absorbed into the rest of GM a while back, and thus died the separate UAW agreement.

Quick search I did showed it as a separate company, though that could have changed. GMAC and OnStar also showed as separate like SAAB USA.

The following Saturn Fans link recounts the Wall Street Journal article I read that mentioned the idea.

[regfootball]

Or because Saturn Corporation can be shutdown independently of General Motors Corporation, whereas the "brands" don't necessarily have that option. Put Saturn into bankruptcy, lose the dealers, redeploy the Opel product to other North American brands with a larger dealer network.

sell it now and buy it back later when no one cares?

[PurdueGuy]

Should've sold Saturn to it's employees when they wanted to buy it. Instead it was kept & left to rot, then given half-hearted vehicles.

[fightingbee]

Instead it was kept & left to rot, then given half-hearted vehicles.

Which only compounded the "cheap car" image.

When problems started to appear with the L early on (electrical probs., leaky 3.0's within 1yr. of launch) buyers kept away. The L was not the most groundbreaking design around but like the S would have sold much better IMO on reputation (just like the imports do) if the bugs were worked out.

Then the VTi came out, which GM knew quite well it was weak before launch IMHO. VTi's to those in the know anymore have about the resale value GM cars with the 5.7 Diesel did in the 80's. Saturn lost a lot of goodwill with many from these slip-ups, only reinforcing the "Saturns are crappy/cheap" image.

[Chicagoland]

L whatever was an outdated POS and they bragged about the 'Opel pedigree'. Should have just given Saturn Olds's cars, renamed. Intrigue, Alero, Aurora, etc.

the whole BS about 'I wont set foot in Chevy deaelr, but will Saturn' makes no sense, since Saturns are the same quality vehicle. The SL's just had plastic panels, not "way better" than Cavalier's of the day. I see more old J cars running than SL's, FWIW.

"Saturn was about building an American car that could compete with the imports."

Well, no need for a halo brand, since the new Malibu is rated "A" by CR. GM can build good cars, and people dont have to pay more for a 'special experience' at a dealer.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Chicagoland

[fightingbee]

the whole BS about 'I wont set foot in Chevy deaelr, but will Saturn' makes no sense,

It did work for many years though. Perceived or tangable, the general public thought that Saturn was of greater quality early on. The imports a have better perception w/ many for the same reason, whether they are of better quality or not.

Saturn spent their cred they had early on by failing to update the product soon enough and launching new models (L, VUE)that were often more troublesome than the "outdated" S. By the time they turned that around it was too late to go upscale with many buyers, the damage was done. Those who hung on for made in USA/Spring Hill and polymer panels no longer automatically buy another Saturn either as those traits are (mostly) gone as well.

I agree about Saturn and Olds. I would have thought it strange at the time to merge the two since they pretended that Saturn was "separate" from GM for years, but in hindsight they really could have been made a pefect pair. GM obviously thought so in the 90's IMO as they did experiment with some saturn sales tactics (one price sales and a moneyback guarantee) @ Olds too in the 90's but the dealers hated the concepts IIRC. Of course the styling was almost the same also and where Saturn was strong where Olds was weak (small cars) and vice versa.

Edited January 6, 2009 by fightingbee

[PurdueGuy]

Those who hung on for made in USA/Spring Hill and polymer panels no longer automatically buy another Saturn either as those traits are (mostly) gone as well.

Those traits are completely gone - no more Saturns in Spring Hill, no more polymer.

[vt_hokie]

Well, no need for a halo brand, since the new Malibu is rated "A" by CR. GM can build good cars, and people dont have to pay more for a 'special experience' at a dealer.

Saturn should go back to building sleek looking cars with dent resistant bodies like the old S Series, for those of us who don't want a Chevy with a huge obnoxious grille and gaudy chrome all over the place. Unfortunately, GM has made Saturn styling roughly equivalent to Chevy in recent years.