GM is Behind Saturn

[saturnd00d]

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articl...94_FORTUNE5.htm

Not entirely saying they are saved, but GM is considering alternatives to help Saturn survive. My guess is to avoid paying out the dealer network.

[smk4565]

"We have a very successful consumer brand with Saturn. We need to find the right business model," said LaNeve, adding that the company has received hundreds of letters from Saturn customers supporting the brand. "We are completely behind Saturn."

The brand has never turned a profit, that isn't success. They have had 18 years to find a business model and have yet to do it, too late now. GM management may be behind Saturn, but their bank account is not.

This is discouraging to me because it shows how much GM is refusing to change. They still want to keep all of these brands and think they can be viable with them. Market share is 19%, they don't need 8 brands or even 5 brands with that little amount of market share.

[enzl]

Yes, GM is behind them...shoving them over the cliff.

What does a GM brand or exec have to do to qualify as hopeless? Saturn is a cool idea but a failed experiment---RW is a nice, smart guy, but a failure as a leader.

The Gov't should come and take the money away just for considering putting one tax-payer's dollar into Saturn at this time.

I'm sorry to all the true believers, but this is absurd.

[saturnd00d]

I think GM should position Saturn to be a small car brand again, because I feel that is one area GM is hugely lacking right now. Whether you like it or not, the Volt and Cruze aren't going to help GM as much as it needs them to. They need more small offerings, and I think Saturn should pick up that slack. Leave the midsize stuff to the other divisions as there is already an abundance of that stuff already within GM.

[CARBIZ]

Obviously, GM's PR department is going to say just about anything to the public right now to avoid future lawsuits. There is no law saying that they can't just privately starve Saturn to death -

GM's current financial crisis will justify just about anything, should GM be dragged into court in the future. There is a lot of doublespeak going on with GM. We're just going to have to sit back and enjoy the show as it unfolds.

If we thought '08 was interesting, I can't wait for 2009 to unfold.

[regfootball]

they waited to get the money, and now said, i think we'll keep it.

Fine by me, i know i can still get my Astra's oil changed at a saturn dealer then......

[Chazman]

I agree, lots of double-speak.

[biff]

I've seen people write that Saturn has never turned a profit. I'm not in know on this, but is it still true? Published somewhere recently? With their stronger lineup now, if the economy turns around I could see Saturn doing well. Probably too late.

[Chazman]

I've seen people write that Saturn has never turned a profit. I'm not in know on this, but is it still true? Published somewhere recently? With their stronger lineup now, if the economy turns around I could see Saturn doing well. Probably too late.

I read somewhere that Saturn made a small profit in 1993. The rest of the years were money losers.

[haypops]

For the many months that I checked, Saturn had the smallest sales % decline of any GM brand. That combined with the fact that there are just 31 Saturn employees makes we wonder how bad they can be doing. On the other hand if Toyota lost over over a $Billion, you can bet they aren't making money now.

I will be sad to see Saturn go. However, I believe GM when they say the dealer agreements with Saturn dealers make this easier.

[hyperv6]

Saturn is like a bad wife you have neglected to pay much attention too till it was too late.

She is difficult to figure out.

She is expensive to keep up and brings little money in.

She is so far gone that that the new boob job and face peel is not fixing the rest of the problems.

But in the end you don't divorce her because it is cheaper to keep her. If you Divorce her your going to have to keep paying as no one will marry her and take her off your hand.

So you work on things and try to work things out. You still have a lot in common and with a little more attention [better Marketing of the Opel based cars] you make things work.

Unlike Pontiac Saturn has a positive rep with many non GM owners and a dealer system that seems to work. Also just the right niumber of dealers. IF they drop the big SUV and other odd cars not in the Saturn frame they could turn things around with some proper marketing. Product development is contained with Opel so the risk is little.

If they can restructure the product to be a tight unit of good product and market it much better than thery have. Lets face it most Saturn ads on tv are all the models in a show room but not specific models.

No one is going to buy Saturn unless someone gets crazy in China. So it is either make it work or kill it. Both have a price which one will GM pay?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

"We have a very successful consumer brand with Saturn. We need to find the right business model," said LaNeve, adding that the company has received hundreds of letters from Saturn customers supporting the brand. "We are completely behind Saturn."

The brand has never turned a profit, that isn't success. They have had 18 years to find a business model and have yet to do it, too late now. GM management may be behind Saturn, but their bank account is not.

This is discouraging to me because it shows how much GM is refusing to change. They still want to keep all of these brands and think they can be viable with them. Market share is 19%, they don't need 8 brands or even 5 brands with that little amount of market share.

LaNeve is referring to the appeal of the Saturn division, not profitability.

GM needs at least 6 divisions and they can all co-exist at 19% (which, BTW, GM's current share is 22%) ESPECIALLY if Pontiac is reduced to a "niche player" It's all about focus

So you work on things and try to work things out. You still have a lot in common and with a little more attention [better Marketing of the Opel based cars] you make things work.

Unlike Pontiac Saturn has a positive rep with many non GM owners and a dealer system that seems to work. Also just the right niumber of dealers. IF they drop the big SUV and other odd cars not in the Saturn frame they could turn things around with some proper marketing. Product development is contained with Opel so the risk is little.

Edited December 24, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think GM should position Saturn to be a small car brand again, because I feel that is one area GM is hugely lacking right now. Whether you like it or not, the Volt and Cruze aren't going to help GM as much as it needs them to. They need more small offerings, and I think Saturn should pick up that slack. Leave the midsize stuff to the other divisions as there is already an abundance of that stuff already within GM.

+1

The line topper should be the Astra with a whole portfolio below that. (Just like in my to GM plan ) Just bring the Opels over and sell them as Saturns. Do we really want Buick selling B-segment junk?

For the many months that I checked, Saturn had the smallest sales % decline of any GM brand. That combined with the fact that there are just 31 Saturn employees makes we wonder how bad they can be doing.

+1

And what these people don't realize is that Saturn doesn't have the luxury of having a dealer on every corner either.

RE: The GM doublespeak.... What else is new?

Edited December 24, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[thedriver]

Worst comes to worst, shelve the Outlook, Aura, and Sky, build the Astra and Vue in the Spring Hill plant ONLY, and sell the whole Shebang as a stand alone company. After all this is what it was for most of its life, a small company that sold a couple of products, had their own factory and dealer network. Convince someone to buy it from GM and Bob's your uncle.

[Intrepidation]

If you still want a Saturn, your head is in Uranus.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Dodgefan

[smk4565]

GM needs at least 6 divisions

Toyota has been cleaning their clock with 3.

[Blake Noble]

Toyota has been cleaning their clock with 3.

GM and Toyota are two entirely different companies. What is good for one could be disastrous for the other and vice versa.

And what is so holy about Toyota anyhow? They posted their first loss this month, and it wasn't exactly just a few worthless pennies either. They're going to be lucky to break even in the future from what I understand.

Get real.

Edited December 24, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[haypops]

Toyota has been cleaning their clock with 3.

Actaully it's much more than that in Japan and 4 in the U.s. (did you forget Subaru?).

[hyperv6]

Just dump the Outlook and stop changing the Opel emblems out. Change the name to Opel and just import what they are building.

Then also Market each car. Cars like the Astra and the like are mysteries to many. I have heard more than one person see one and ask what it was. That is a sign that GM is not doing its job.

Now where do we get the money to market it better?

That is always the problem around here we all get good ideas but never factor in the cost of things like marketing or saving Pontiac etc.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Toyota has been cleaning their clock with 3.

Oh really?

Last time I checked, Toyota wasn't exactly "cleaning their clock" here where GM has 8 divisions.

Besides; Toyota has 3 STRONG divisions and a bunch of buyers that buy on name alone.

If GM thinks it can structure itself like Toyota and succeed, then we're in for one helluva show. Different companies, different cultures, different perceptions and different outcomes.

[gm4life]

Saturn has been a waste of money from the start. Strave them of product, if it is a choice between Saturn and Pontiac. Keep the brand that has a storied past and promising future, duh that is Pontiac. Screw Saturn, it sucked up money that could have been making better Buicks, Chevrolets, Cadillacs, Pontiacs and GMCs for too many years already.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Just dump the Outlook and stop changing the Opel emblems out. Change the name to Opel and just import what they are building.

Then also Market each car. Cars like the Astra and the like are mysteries to many. I have heard more than one person see one and ask what it was. That is a sign that GM is not doing its job.

Now where do we get the money to market it better?

That is always the problem around here we all get good ideas but never factor in the cost of things like marketing or saving Pontiac etc.

You make Saturn and Pontiac "cult" divisions.

You build a LIFESTYLE around them and recruit (conquest) the most loyal customers in the market. Then you wait a few years (because it'll take a while) and watch the sales grow. Then you can market them better when you have the money.

LIFESTYLE = 1) unparalleled customer service. 2) an aftermarket of endless "expression" items. 3) events and 'rituals' to promote a feeling of family. 4) on going communication with the 'client' that bought your car. 5) become active in something greater (support a cause)

There are TONS of things GM could do (relatively cheaply) to promote this kind of thing. They need to take this OPPORTUNITY to re-engineer their brands from the ground up and really develop loyalty. Especially with the new niche brands. The brands are a valuable resource, if only GM knew how to use them appropriately.

A good example of this is Mini. I have a friend that is an avid Mini person. The company mails her things all of the time, there is tons of aftermarket and she feels like she is a part of something bigger (i.e. a family)

That is the only way GM will be able to save them if they turn them into niche players. And, let's face it, if they become niche players they're extraneous anyway. So what do we have to lose.

Let the big 4 (Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac) go after share. Saturn and Pontiac (and Saab maybe) can go after hearts.

[smk4565]

Toyota doesn't own all of Subaru, and Dihatsu is rather small. I was comparing GM's 8 to Toyota's 3 in North America. GM has Opel, Vauxhall, Holden too, which is more baggage than what Subaru or Dihatsu are.

Toyota posted an operating loss, but their net profit for 2008 is expected to be $550 million. Which isn't good, but they kept it in the black, which hardly any other automaker will do this year. They make generic, mediocre cars, but their culture and business strategy kills GM's.

Toyota's brands are strong because they continually provide them with new product and market them constantly. GM's brands have to take turns getting new products, so certain brands and models get dated and create a poor image.

[Blake Noble]

Toyota doesn't own all of Subaru, and Daihatsu is rather small. I was comparing GM's 8 to Toyota's 3 in North America. GM has Opel, Vauxhall, Holden too, which is more baggage than what Subaru or Daihatsu are.

Toyota posted an operating loss, but their net profit for 2008 is expected to be $550 million. Which isn't good, but they kept it in the black, which hardly any other automaker will do this year. They make generic, mediocre cars, but their culture and business strategy kills GM's.

The Opel brand is not sold directly in the United States. In fact, the only Opel models here are the Astra, Vue, and Sky. And they're indirectly sold here as Saturns. The Aura has little in common with the Vectra and the Outlook is exclusive to North America. Vauxhalls are Opels with a market-exclusive name and badge and right-hand drive. The same can almost be said for Holden as their only exclusive product is the Commodore, and it's sold here as a Pontiac, not a Holden.

You can't count Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden as they are not directly sold in the United States. You can only count Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, Cadillac, Hummer, and GMC.

My god, do you have any common sense at all? Everything I just said is pretty much basic knowledge.

And, for the last and final time, Toyota's culture and business strategy just couldn't work at GM. Granted, GM does need to change those two things, but following Toyota's tooth-and-nail would not work. It would be disastrous.

Edited December 24, 2008 by YellowJacket894

[MyerShift]

Just dump the Outlook and stop changing the Opel emblems out. Change the name to Opel and just import what they are building.

Then also Market each car. Cars like the Astra and the like are mysteries to many. I have heard more than one person see one and ask what it was. That is a sign that GM is not doing its job.

Now where do we get the money to market it better?

Agreed.

[vt_hokie]

Call it a Saturn, call it a Chevy, call it Buick, call it Fred for all I care, just build a car with dent resistant plastic body panels!

[saturnd00d]

Seriously, I don't get why so many people are hung up on changing the name to Opel. Does no one care that it would cost a ton of money to do that? Or how about to build up the Opel name in NA? Vauxhall is a great example of a product badged under a different logo and sold exclusively in a different market. If it can work for them, why not for the Saturn brand?

vt_hokie, as much as I admired the polymer panels as well, they will never go back to that. The niche market that Saturn had back in the early days was never big enough to support the cost of building such a vehicle. I'd be all for Saturn going back to its roots, but it's been proven too costly for GM, and if it came down to it, I think they would rather close Saturn than to go back to polymer.

And to address the marketing funding, let's try this GM, don't spend 500 bajillion dollars marketing your Malibu and no other car, and you'll see that all of a sudden, you'll have a bit more marketing money to play with. Seriously, why do I have to see 3 or 4 commercials for the malibu every hour on the hour? If I wasn't an enthusiast who reads up on GM on an almost daily basis, I would tend to think that the malibu was the only car they actually made.

[smk4565]

You can't count Opel, Vauxhall, and Holden as they are not directly sold in the United States. You can only count Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, Cadillac, Hummer, and GMC.

I didn't, I said I was comparing GM's 8 brands to Toyota's 3 in North America. I brought up Opel/Vauxhall and Holden to compare them to Daihatsu, which is Toyota's only global brand. It is 8 to 3 in NA, and 11-4 global.

I know Toyota's exact culture wouldn't work at GM, but their business strategy would.

[smk4565]

And to address the marketing funding, let's try this GM, don't spend 500 bajillion dollars marketing your Malibu and no other car, and you'll see that all of a sudden, you'll have a bit more marketing money to play with. Seriously, why do I have to see 3 or 4 commercials for the malibu every hour on the hour?

Because Toyota spends 500 bajillion dollars on Camry marketing, and the car has a 20+ year solid reputation on top of that. GM has no choice but to advertise the Malibu a ton, because it is getting killed in sales by the Accord and Camry. The problem is GM has 45-50 models to advertise while Toyota only has 26. So Toyota can advertise each individual car twice as much.

[hyperv6]

Call it a Saturn, call it a Chevy, call it Buick, call it Fred for all I care, just build a car with dent resistant plastic body panels!

Then how do you explaine the 5-6 MM panel gaps when everyone else has 3 MM.

It may seem small on paper but people notice this anymore and they equal it with quality.

Also explain to them whrn the body make noise as it pops and cracks in the summer sun as it expands.

I tell people my Fiero is talking to me when it make al sorts of noise in the hot sun at a car show.

[saturnd00d]

Because Toyota spends 500 bajillion dollars on Camry marketing, and the car has a 20+ year solid reputation on top of that. GM has no choice but to advertise the Malibu a ton, because it is getting killed in sales by the Accord and Camry. The problem is GM has 45-50 models to advertise while Toyota only has 26. So Toyota can advertise each individual car twice as much.

OK great, Toyota can throw money at marketing the hell out of the camry, but commercials do not sell the car. It's about getting people in the showroom to see it/drive it that truly counts. We all know the Malibu is a great car, but then again, so is the aura. If you can't get people in the showroom to view your lineup, your car can't exactly sell itself any other way.

[Daryl Z71]

WOW Saturn is a lost cause IMO. GM needs to drop them instead of throwing more money at them.

[hyperv6]

Seriously, I don't get why so many people are hung up on changing the name to Opel. Does no one care that it would cost a ton of money to do that? Or how about to build up the Opel name in NA? Vauxhall is a great example of a product badged under a different logo and sold exclusively in a different market. If it can work for them, why not for the Saturn brand?

vt_hokie, as much as I admired the polymer panels as well, they will never go back to that. The niche market that Saturn had back in the early days was never big enough to support the cost of building such a vehicle. I'd be all for Saturn going back to its roots, but it's been proven too costly for GM, and if it came down to it, I think they would rather close Saturn than to go back to polymer.

And to address the marketing funding, let's try this GM, don't spend 500 bajillion dollars marketing your Malibu and no other car, and you'll see that all of a sudden, you'll have a bit more marketing money to play with. Seriously, why do I have to see 3 or 4 commercials for the malibu every hour on the hour? If I wasn't an enthusiast who reads up on GM on an almost daily basis, I would tend to think that the malibu was the only car they actually made.

Do you relaize how much you would save in just the marketing aspect alone.

Opel would a fesh start in this country with many and has a good rep in Europe.

Lets face it this is no different than the Sham Wow comercial where the guy says "they are made in Germany and you know the Germans make good stuff". People are really that simple minded and believe crap like this.

People ued to think years ago Orange peel on a Benz ment it had more paint? Americans over look things form else where when if it is frm here they cut no slack.

Saturn needs to ditch the Outlook and update the Aura. GM has other Opels that would sell well here with the import minded folks. They are priced well and are of good quality.

Right now the Saturn name is still is in that love hate relationship with the American publc. To some it it that special car, to others it is that cheap plastic crap with the engine that burned oil due to ring problems.

Yes Saturn burned many on enigne problems in the early years and they remember.

Edited December 24, 2008 by hyperv6

[Dragon]

the military has a term for putting divisions up front....Cannon Fodder

on a side note, I was chatting with my g/f who said she'd never own a GM and I mentioned how she had said in the past she likes Saturn's, well low and behold, their old marketing gimmick worked...she thought Saturn was an import haha

[regfootball]

OK great, Toyota can throw money at marketing the hell out of the camry, but commercials do not sell the car. It's about getting people in the showroom to see it/drive it that truly counts. We all know the Malibu is a great car, but then again, so is the aura. If you can't get people in the showroom to view your lineup, your car can't exactly sell itself any other way.

my buddy (picky yuppie) just got a new job. he has been driving a passat which he LOVES for a few years now.

his new job, he got a company car, 09 malibu.

finally, after a couple of weeks, i asked him again, how do you like your car.

'it's pretty nice'. a couple minor exceptions.

if a malibu can placate a passat owner, then chevy may be on to something.

[regfootball]

i could see Opel in the US if it were sold in Cadillac showrooms. but then, what to do with Saab?

[haypops]

Toyota doesn't own all of Subaru, and Dihatsu is rather small. I was comparing GM's 8 to Toyota's 3 in North America. GM has Opel, Vauxhall, Holden too, which is more baggage than what Subaru or Dihatsu are.

I don't think Toyota's partial ownership of Subaru makes a difference to the discussion. By the way have you noticed the give away lease prices on Subaru vehicles since Toyota took over? Also you forget Hino. I believe that it was Griffin(my apologies to him If I am wrong) once posted a long list of Toyota brands and sales channels that they use in Japan.

[hyperv6]

the military has a term for putting divisions up front....Cannon Fodder

on a side note, I was chatting with my g/f who said she'd never own a GM and I mentioned how she had said in the past she likes Saturn's, well low and behold, their old marketing gimmick worked...she thought Saturn was an import haha

Make it an Opel and it will be.

As for GM being behind Saturn. Reminds me of a line in the movie Stripes.

"I just want you to remember when we are then thick of battle I will be behind you guy all the way!"

Edited December 24, 2008 by hyperv6

[Chicagoland]

"small car brand again, because I feel that is one area GM is hugely lacking right now" "They need more small offerings,"

Huh? Before the credit melt down the Cobalt and Aveo were selling fine. The Saturn astra is a huge flop. The SL was a nerd-mobile and not all that great. Should GM spend billions more to make plastic cars for what, 10-25, 000 'loyal' buyers? They would have to sell 500K to make any $$ and that is not possible.

Oh, and I see Opels sold here as Chevy Cruze and Malibu, no need to 'import' and charge high prices. See Saturn Astra again, so put away any idea of importing Opels. Just share the platforms and no need for yet another brand to market.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Chicagoland

[haypops]

The SL was a nerd-mobile and not all that great.

Name calling - now there's a pleasant change for Christmas Eve. I suppose you resented all those guys in wheel chairs buying them too.

[vt_hokie]

Then how do you explaine the 5-6 MM panel gaps when everyone else has 3 MM.

It may seem small on paper but people notice this anymore and they equal it with quality.

Also explain to them whrn the body make noise as it pops and cracks in the summer sun as it expands.

I tell people my Fiero is talking to me when it make al sorts of noise in the hot sun at a car show.

I think people who care more about a couple mm difference in panel gaps than about preventing dings and dents are foolish. Personally, I'll take a car with larger panel gaps that still looks new years down the road. Take a car to any crowded parking lot and it's only a matter of time until some inconsiderate person opens his/her door into the side of your car, or neglects to put away a shopping cart which then rolls into your car, or whatever. Who cares about freaking panel gaps when cars are so fragile that they accumulate unsightly dings from normal everyday use?

Oh, and I can't say I ever heard my Saturn's body pop or crack.

And what's the point of having all these different divisions if they're not going to cater to different people? GM has several other divisions for people who care about stupid crap like panel gaps. How about giving those of us who think otherwise a choice?

Edited December 25, 2008 by vt_hokie

[thegriffon]

I don't think Toyota's partial ownership of Subaru makes a difference to the discussion. By the way have you noticed the give away lease prices on Subaru vehicles since Toyota took over? Also you forget Hino. I believe that it was Griffin(my apologies to him If I am wrong) once posted a long list of Toyota brands and sales channels that they use in Japan.

This list:

Lexus (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Toyota (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Toyopet (Japan, formerly sold in the US)

Corolla (Japan)

Netz (Japan)

Daihatsu (Japan, Europe, Asia, formerly sold in America)

Perodua (Europe, Asia)

Hino (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Scion (America)

[thegriffon]

FYI, Toyota often sells the same vehicles in the same markets under different brands—both Toyota and Daihatsu, or Daihatsu and Perodua, or Toyota and Hino, or the same vehicle at the same prices under different names through the different Japanese channels (e.g. Noah and Voxy, TownAce and LiteAce).

[Blake Noble]

How about the WiLL sub-brand?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

"small car brand again, because I feel that is one area GM is hugely lacking right now" "They need more small offerings,"

Huh? Before the credit melt down the Cobalt and Aveo were selling fine. The Saturn astra is a huge flop. The SL was a nerd-mobile and not all that great. Should GM spend billions more to make plastic cars for what, 10-25, 000 'loyal' buyers? They would have to sell 500K to make any $$ and that is not possible.

Oh, and I see Opels sold here as Chevy Cruze and Malibu, no need to 'import' and charge high prices. See Saturn Astra again, so put away any idea of importing Opels. Just share the platforms and no need for yet another brand to market.

1) The saturns would be more of a premium offering (i.e. more pure Opel)

2) Some people (a lot of people) won't consider a Chevrolet, but they will consider a Saturn.

[haypops]

This list:

Lexus (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Toyota (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Toyopet (Japan, formerly sold in the US)

Corolla (Japan)

Netz (Japan)

Daihatsu (Japan, Europe, Asia, formerly sold in America)

Perodua (Europe, Asia)

Hino (Japan, Europe, Asia, America)

Scion (America)

Thanks for the clarification.

[saturnd00d]

Huh? Before the credit melt down the Cobalt and Aveo were selling fine. The Saturn astra is a huge flop. The SL was a nerd-mobile and not all that great. Should GM spend billions more to make plastic cars for what, 10-25, 000 'loyal' buyers? They would have to sell 500K to make any $$ and that is not possible.

Oh, and I see Opels sold here as Chevy Cruze and Malibu, no need to 'import' and charge high prices. See Saturn Astra again, so put away any idea of importing Opels. Just share the platforms and no need for yet another brand to market.

Yes, the Astra is a huge flop and I'll tell you why. 3 things to consider.

1. It's a hatchback and typically, hatchbacks aren't sold in the same kind of numbers as sedans or coupes in the U.S.A.

2. Astras are imported. This is huge. GM has already confirmed (earlier on when things weren't in doubt) that the next gen astra was to be built either in U.S. or Mexico, because the imported astra loses too much money due to conversion and shipping rates.

3. Marketing. How many commercials and the like have you seen for this car? Seriously, there's not much awareness for it outside of people showing up to the dealership thinking Saturn still sold an ION. Web ads like those that appear on yahoo don't really do much to stir emotion.

Those things aside, who here has actually driven an astra? Not read reviews (which are mostly positive anyways) but actually sat inside and taken one for a drive? I have, and I can honestly say it feels way better than any cobalt ever would, and the funny thing is that they ride on the same chassis, albeit, the astras is more finely tuned to european driving specs. The car feels solid. Take it around corners and you don't have much body roll at all, and although the engine is a bit weak, it's still peppy to drive in a manual version.

I've had no build issues with my mexico-assembled Vue, so whether the next gen astra was assembled in the U.S. or mexico wouldn't concern me at all. I think it would do a ton better if marketed decently, and assembled locally to save on costs. I think GM could realitically reduce the MSRP by 2 grand or so. At least for an entry level version.

[daves87rs]

You make Saturn and Pontiac "cult" divisions.

You build a LIFESTYLE around them and recruit (conquest) the most loyal customers in the market. Then you wait a few years (because it'll take a while) and watch the sales grow. Then you can market them better when you have the money.

LIFESTYLE = 1) unparalleled customer service. 2) an aftermarket of endless "expression" items. 3) events and 'rituals' to promote a feeling of family. 4) on going communication with the 'client' that bought your car. 5) become active in something greater (support a cause)

There are TONS of things GM could do (relatively cheaply) to promote this kind of thing. They need to take this OPPORTUNITY to re-engineer their brands from the ground up and really develop loyalty. Especially with the new niche brands. The brands are a valuable resource, if only GM knew how to use them appropriately.

A good example of this is Mini. I have a friend that is an avid Mini person. The company mails her things all of the time, there is tons of aftermarket and she feels like she is a part of something bigger (i.e. a family)

That is the only way GM will be able to save them if they turn them into niche players. And, let's face it, if they become niche players they're extraneous anyway. So what do we have to lose.

Let the big 4 (Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Cadillac) go after share. Saturn and Pontiac (and Saab maybe) can go after hearts.

Quite a good idea....

[daves87rs]

Yes, the Astra is a huge flop and I'll tell you why. 3 things to consider.

1. It's a hatchback and typically, hatchbacks aren't sold in the same kind of numbers as sedans or coupes in the U.S.A.

2. Astras are imported. This is huge. GM has already confirmed (earlier on when things weren't in doubt) that the next gen astra was to be built either in U.S. or Mexico, because the imported astra loses too much money due to conversion and shipping rates.

3. Marketing. How many commercials and the like have you seen for this car? Seriously, there's not much awareness for it outside of people showing up to the dealership thinking Saturn still sold an ION. Web ads like those that appear on yahoo don't really do much to stir emotion.

Those things aside, who here has actually driven an astra? Not read reviews (which are mostly positive anyways) but actually sat inside and taken one for a drive? I have, and I can honestly say it feels way better than any cobalt ever would, and the funny thing is that they ride on the same chassis, albeit, the astras is more finely tuned to european driving specs. The car feels solid. Take it around corners and you don't have much body roll at all, and although the engine is a bit weak, it's still peppy to drive in a manual version.

Bottom line is that the reason the Astra failed is that it cost too much ( compared to th s-series), and offered less.

For about 17 grand you could have a loaded to the gills S-series.

I've had no build issues with my mexico-assembled Vue, so whether the next gen astra was assembled in the U.S. or mexico wouldn't concern me at all. I think it would do a ton better if marketed decently, and assembled locally to save on costs. I think GM could realitically reduce the MSRP by 2 grand or so. At least for an entry level version.

[haypops]

I have, and I can honestly say it feels way better than any cobalt ever would, and the funny thing is that they ride on the same chassis, albeit, the astras is more finely tuned to european driving specs. The car feels solid. Take it around corners and you don't have much body roll at all,

Many at the HHR forums have installed a rear roll bar on their cars are quite pleased. Does the Astra already have one possibly?