So, I still don't get it...

[hyperv6]

Here is where Holen is going.

Holden, known for it's massive sedans and massively appealing V8s, is on the small car bandwagon with its announcement to build a four-cylinder car in Australia to be sold alongside the Commodore. Holden currently has three four-cylinder cars, but they're comprised of rebadged Daewoo's and an Opel, and haven't set the Outback on fire. The new compact car will be based on the Chevrolet Cruze, but with a body designed by Holden, and will offer both four-pot gas and diesel options. Down the line, Holden said it will investigate ethanol-capable engines and start-stop technology for its new Corolla fighter.

Holden has a few reasons to make such a move right now, changing consumer tastes being one of the most important. The Australian government has also pledged $6 billion (AUD) to its local auto industry, which has allowed Holden to carry out its plans with less concern about the bottom line. Holden will spend $200 million (AUD) and the government will provide another $179 million (AUD). The new compact sedan will have to stave off competition from Toyota, as well as the parade of cheap Thai cars that have been flowing into Australia after the two countries concluded a free trade agreement. The new Holden will face-off against the Ford Focus and Toyota Corolla when production begins in 2011.

[Chicagoland]

This is one of GM's biggest problems, the divisional rivalry and the 'what do we get?'. How much $ does Pontiac make? That is the key, not loads of fleet G6's and GP's. Buick is #1 in China, and brings in the $$. So it stays.

Agin, Chevrolet and Cadillac are the main brands to save. The years of Pontiac, especially in Canada, trying to steal Chevy sales with rebadged cars are long over. And, GM can't afford to make 4-5 RWD 'sporty Pontiacs' to please hobbyists and loyalists. Chevys are just as good [and the same platform] as any other GM car, and anyone who thinks less is living in a fantasy world.

The days of 4 full lines of car divisions competing against each other, with simple rebadges, is over and never coming back. And, it would take 1 gazillon bucks to make all 'unique' cars. [60's GM cars weren't all that different really, just little stuff to say so]

"For what it's worth, 1973's model line breakout ~"

Back then, GM had 50% share, and imports were about 10%. Also 1973 is 35 years ago, a lifetime for many buyers [those under 40]. Stop with the 'good old days' thinking. The Gub-ment is NOT going to 'ban imports' and give people a check to buy a new US car.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Chicagoland

[balthazar]

>>"1973 is 35 years ago, a lifetime for many buyers [those under 40]. Stop with the 'good old days' thinking."<<

I only presented it as a matter of fact & curiosity, not to suggest a full line up.

I believe I'm farther back in this thread supporting a 1 model/3 variant Pontiac lineup.

>>"Buick is #1 in China, and brings in the $$. So it stays."<<

Maybe you have an opinion on this : do you think there'd be any effect on Buick China if Buick USA was discontinued ??

The 2 have nothing to do with each other.

>>"Too many assume this saved car is the G8 while they sit on dealer lots unsold at very cheap prices."<<

EVERYTHING is 'sitting on dealer lots' right not; industry is down roughly 33%, GM 41% in Nov, nissan 44% in Nov.

Edited December 22, 2008 by balthazar

[CARBIZ]

Canada's love of all things Pontiac has a lot to do with the (former) strength and lobbying power of strategically place Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealers. Their strength is waning. I guess part of Pontiac's success here is the fact that whereas Chevrolet is 'as American as apple pie,' both Pontiac and Chevrolet are technically 'imports' to Canada: neither is home-grown.

With 20% of the population of the Toronto area being Asian (and a similar chunk of Greater Vancouver's), I can see future positive spin off for the success of the Buick nameplate in China and the rest of Asia.

When I saw that special on Saving General Motors a month or so back, I nearly choked when they interviewed customers at a GM dealer in China as to why they were purchasing a GM product: the customers replied because of the quality and the history. Then what happens to them when they arrive on our shores? When they emigrate to Canada, why are they suddenly so enamored with Toyota and Honda? Possibly part of that reason is because many of them neve heard of GM over there. Perhaps Buick's success in China can change that for the better.

[A Horse With No Name]

Listen I think lots of Pontiac lovers have expressed concerns and sent them onto GM. I most certainly have. I hope they can listen. Less models is fine but a Solstice, G6 and G8 line-up wouldn't bother me.

+1

Chris

[hyperv6]

Grass Hopper, A wise man believes if Buick N/A vanishies it would not effect Buick China. But a wise man know Buick China can and will effect Buick N/A.

With the Lucerne Going away and the new Lacrosse coming it looks as if Buick N/A may get some of the same cars offered in China. The Insignia sold in China would really look good in a Buick show room. It was taken from Saturn so where does it land. Buick or even as the last Pontiac? The Euro car of the year is coming to N/A but where?

The G8 comment goes back to When they first came out. As few as the dealers got in they are not moving them much at all in midwest. The sad part is the midwest is one of Pontiacs strongest markets. That is even with them priced so low they are hard to pass up. I even found one on a used lot for less than $19K.

It is a shame the harsh market and lack of marketing has hurt the best Pontiac sedan in their history. Few people outside the enthusiast know what a G8 is.

[Sixty8panther]

GM: "Yes, Pontiac is our second-best selling car brand in the US, even with what some call "rebadges", but instead of being creative like we were with the '58 Bonneville which FOCUSED the Pontiac brand and allowed it to reach incredible heights of desirability, we've decided to simply give away our Pontiac customers to anyone who will take them. After all, who needs variety? Who needs market share? Who needs customers? We don't need no stinking customers! Customers, BE GONE!"

Seriously... what the hell exactly is the silver lining here?

[daves87rs]

Money was not spent on the Vibe and it'll be dead soon???? It's new for 2009 and one of their better sellers.

Vibe = quick Toyota rehash, as GM did even less than less than last time to make it different from it's twin. And not only are there a bunch of Vibes just sitting on lots around here (way more than usual), more of them find themselves in the shop with issues...It won't be a better seller for long.

G5= quick cobalt rehash (though everyone can tell that...) If GM wasn't even smart enough to put a sedan out for this, you knew this was going to be short.

It annoys me when people bash PCS for stuff like this, but yet couldn't look at the current line up and see the writing on the wall.

Pontiac could be gone within a few months very easily with almost no hassle. Scary, but true.

[daves87rs]

Seriously... what the hell exactly is the silver lining here?

Sadly my friend, there is none....

[daves87rs]

This is one of GM's biggest problems, the divisional rivalry and the 'what do we get?'. How much $ does Pontiac make? That is the key, not loads of fleet G6's and GP's. Buick is #1 in China, and brings in the $$. So it stays.

Agin, Chevrolet and Cadillac are the main brands to save. The years of Pontiac, especially in Canada, trying to steal Chevy sales with rebadged cars are long over. And, GM can't afford to make 4-5 RWD 'sporty Pontiacs' to please hobbyists and loyalists. Chevys are just as good [and the same platform] as any other GM car, and anyone who thinks less is living in a fantasy world.

The days of 4 full lines of car divisions competing against each other, with simple rebadges, is over and never coming back. And, it would take 1 gazillon bucks to make all 'unique' cars. [60's GM cars weren't all that different really, just little stuff to say so]

"For what it's worth, 1973's model line breakout ~"

Back then, GM had 50% share, and imports were about 10%. Also 1973 is 35 years ago, a lifetime for many buyers [those under 40]. Stop with the 'good old days' thinking. The Gub-ment is NOT going to 'ban imports' and give people a check to buy a new US car.

As much as it pains me to say it, I have to agree with CL on some of this......

It's pretty bad when the competition is you....the overlap has to stop....

[CARBIZ]

+ 1

This is a very serious problem, IMO. It's bad enough we have to worry about losing sales of the Equinox to, say, the Escape or Tuscon - but we have to worry about the Torrent, too. It's absurd. GM is the only company that does this, and although it may have made sense when GM had 40% market share and people waited breathlessly for every new GM model launch, 90% of today's motoriing public doesn't GIVE A RAT'S ASS. They wouldn't know a Pontiac from a Chev if you stamped the bowtie on their forehead!

I'd like to see GM do a study of how many customers they lose because of the tug-of-war between Chev-Pontiac dealers desperate for a sale, trashing each other's vehicle when it's the same friggin' vehicle. I don't know how many times I've had customers say 'oh, the salesguy over at Pontiac said the G5 had more [fill in the blank] than the Cobalt.' What am I supposed to say? No, the Pontiac is a POS, buy the Cobalt? Or do I laugh and say it's the same car, built on the same line: do you like green dash lights or orange? Either way, it creates confusion, uncertainty, and I'll bet a lot of customers just throw up their hands and buy a Hyundai instead.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Holden, known for it's massive sedans and massively appealing V8s, is on the small car bandwagon with its announcement to build a four-cylinder car in Australia to be sold alongside the Commodore. Holden currently has three four-cylinder cars, but they're comprised of rebadged Daewoo's and an Opel, and haven't set the Outback on fire. The new compact car will be based on the Chevrolet Cruze, but with a body designed by Holden, and will offer both four-pot gas and diesel options. Down the line, Holden said it will investigate ethanol-capable engines and start-stop technology for its new Corolla fighter.

*fixed

Chevys are just as good [and the same platform] as any other GM car, and anyone who thinks less is living in a fantasy world.

No, they're not just as good.

I prefer a Pontiac, therefore the Chevrolet's are not 'just as good'

The days of 4 full lines of car divisions competing against each other, with simple rebadges, is over and never coming back. And, it would take 1 gazillon bucks to make all 'unique' cars. [60's GM cars weren't all that different really, just little stuff to say so]

"For what it's worth, 1973's model line breakout ~"

Back then, GM had 50% share, and imports were about 10%. Also 1973 is 35 years ago, a lifetime for many buyers [those under 40]. Stop with the 'good old days' thinking. The Gub-ment is NOT going to 'ban imports' and give people a check to buy a new US car.

Do you ever get tired of typing this same recycled bs? Because I know I certainly get tired of reading it.

NO ONE here is asking GM to do that. And to my knowledge, NO ONE ever has.

[gm4life]

I want Pontiac to live clearly with a few models but you can nix SUV's that is okay with me. Given the choice between an Equinox and a Torrent the Torrent is more appealing. Given the choice between a Cobalt XFE and G5 XFE the G5 is more appealing. But it is the same old &#036;h&#33; again and again around here and I am part of it. Sadly.

Edited December 24, 2008 by gm4life

[Chicagoland]

"I prefer a Pontiac, therefore the Chevrolet's are not 'just as good'"

And what makes it better? The name? Badge? History? The V8's in Pontiacs have been Chevys since 1982, so again what are you paying for?

Sure, when GM had 50% share, mid priced lines made sense, but now, they are as archaic as poodle skirts and smoke filled offices.

You are right, you "don't get it", the world has moved on from the 60's. Some here still buy into the old psychology/image that certain brands are 'better', but the real world doesn't think Pontiac is 'better', it is 'just a GM car'.

They simply CANNOT afford to feed the old think of 'where is mine?' and feed all the feifdoms within GM anymore.

Pontiac is better as a niche brand, not a 'me too' as what Olds and Buick also became. To trash the main brand of GM is utter nonsense and Chevrolet should be #1 to fight Toyota.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Chicagoland

[turbo200]

there is validity to a brand that is more in line with VW in pricing, offering much improved, even RWD, performance and aggressive design. it makes a lot of sense, there is a captive audience out there looking for this kind of car. BMW enthusiasts became enthusiasts/loyalists after time. A vocal segment of Honda buyers, and many not so vocal most probably, shop at Honda stay with Honda love Honda for precise steering, flexible engines, stable suspensions. breeding a fan base takes time and good product. combining this formula with an already hugely recognized brand that has huge brand recognition, regardless of how badly perceived it may be, only is common sense. a product can go from bad to good with the simple engagement of ideas people want and want to buy into. pontiac and GM still can have a life after death, they need to keep thier act together and build the best they can, along with very acute understanding of the market and who they're trying to attract.

[vt_hokie]

why would i want a buick or chevy? i don't. they are dull cheap old person rides.

They're whatever GM makes them at the time. It's just a name on a badge. You could take a BMW M3 and badge it as a Buick or Chevy...wouldn't change the sustance of the car.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

"I prefer a Pontiac, therefore the Chevrolet's are not 'just as good'"

And what makes it better? The name? Badge? History? The V8's in Pontiacs have been Chevys since 1982, so again what are you paying for?

What makes a Lexus "better" than a Cadillac or a BMW "better" than a Pontiac?

The image the car conveys, that's what.

Sure, when GM had 50% share, mid priced lines made sense, but now, they are as archaic as poodle skirts and smoke filled offices.

So GM should sell to the bottom of the market and the tip top? that's GREAT business sense.

You are right, you "don't get it", the world has moved on from the 60's. Some here still buy into the old psychology/image that certain brands are 'better', but the real world doesn't think Pontiac is 'better', it is 'just a GM car'.

Okay... So, you'r speaking for everyone who buys luxury automobiles that are based on plebian models? With this mindset, you might as well be. It's not about "better" it's about choice and taste. What you don't get is that the real world is too stupid to know who makes what, much less that a Chevrolet IS a Pontiac (unless it's blatantly rebadged)

The current image problem is due to sh*tty products, not the fact that those products are based on the same corporate underpinning as other GM vehicles. Disagree? Then why does GMC do so well then?

They simply CANNOT afford to feed the old think of 'where is mine?' and feed all the feifdoms within GM anymore.

No one is asking them to. their asking them to dedicate a few highly focused niche models to Pontiac (2 out of 3 of these models have already been developed)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

there is validity to a brand that is more in line with VW in pricing, offering much improved, even RWD, performance and aggressive design. it makes a lot of sense, there is a captive audience out there looking for this kind of car. BMW enthusiasts became enthusiasts/loyalists after time. A vocal segment of Honda buyers, and many not so vocal most probably, shop at Honda stay with Honda love Honda for precise steering, flexible engines, stable suspensions. breeding a fan base takes time and good product. combining this formula with an already hugely recognized brand that has huge brand recognition, regardless of how badly perceived it may be, only is common sense. a product can go from bad to good with the simple engagement of ideas people want and want to buy into. pontiac and GM still can have a life after death, they need to keep thier act together and build the best they can, along with very acute understanding of the market and who they're trying to attract.

+1

And, given that the G6 has been losely compared to the Jetta (in scope) it might just be where they are going.

[ShadowDog]

Overall sales volume of Chevrolet vs. sister models from Pontiac provides a sizable answer. Fans will not provide stability for GM, buyers will.

[turbo200]

indeed. and since buyers snap up over 140k G6s a year, almost as many as the newly redesigned Malibu, I'd venture to say there is a market for good mainstream Pontiac cars. here are more interesting stats

jetta - ~90k units/annual

altima - ~260k units

mazda6 - ~60k units

mazda3 - ~110k units

fusion - ~150k units

sonata - ~118k units

these are all second tier brands, like a Pontiac would be, except for Nissan. i do believe the viability of none of these brands is being called into question. and yet they're volume is either equal or less [except for the more mainstream fusion]. these models are also all newer [only the mazda6 has been around longer] and in some cases critically considered to be near the head of thier class or in much better shape overall than the Pontiac model..... you get my point, give Pontiac a better product to sell, and the story would be different.

as for bringing fleet sales into this equation, the other models here are also fleeted, retail buyer ratio will actually favor Pontiac G6 against most or all of these