Pontiac’s Focused, Niche Role

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac’s Focused, Niche Role
The One Product that can pull it off.

By Andrew Currie

News has been grim as a of late from GM. All options are on the table with GM’s brands. Latest word is that at least one brand, Saturn or Saab may get the axe, in addition to the sell-off of Hummer. According to GM, Pontiac may very well become a niche, even one model brand. Supposedly it will be much more focused than it is now, with its lineup made of mostly rebadges.
GM is strapped for cash; it doesn’t have the money to poor into the development of an all new vehicle for Pontiac. This would seem like a major problem, as though Pontiac would once again be placed on the backburner. However of the entire current crop of Pontiac vehicles, there is one that can achieve the goal of making Pontiac a focused brand: the G8. Out of Pontiac’s lineup, the G8 is the only one that has the potential to fulfill Pontiac’s new roll.

Pontiac’s other products, the G3, G5, and G6 all compete directly with Chevrolet products. In fact two of the three are nothing more than rebadges with red lighting. The Vibe is a reskinned Toyota Matrix, which is neither sporty, nor particularly good looking, plus it’s not even a GM product besides the tweaks to make it “look” Pontiac. Even the Solstice is not unique, as Saturn has the same product with different sheetmental. It also has many rough edges, particularly the interior, the storage, and the roof. It is niche, but too much so. Besides, the Kappa platform is said to not see a redesign due to cost and not enough volume.

That leaves us with the G8. Of all of Pontiacs, this is the most “finished” one. It has been universally praised as not only the best Pontiac in decades, but one of GM’s best products. The G8 is also unique among the GM family in North America. No other brand has something quite like it. Save for Cadillac’s CTS, which is in another league, all of GM’s other large cars are FWD based. The G8’s RWD architecture is the car’s trump card. It competes with nothing in GM’s current lineup. It’s combination of sporty handling, quality interior, smart looks, excellent powertrains, and practicality means that it can fill a niche that no other car in GM’s lineup can. This car effectively embodies all that Pontiac should stand for. It also means that it can play the role of a niche, fairly low volume car, but not so low as to make it unprofitable. In fact, of all the automakers, only Chrysler’s 300 and Charger directly compete with it.

There is another advantage in the G8’s favor as well: cost. Because the G8 is essentially a Holden Commodore, and Holden does the engineering for its own market anyway, there is far less cost to continuing to use Holden for development, and make only changes needed for the NA market, than designing an entirely new model. The added capacity also benefit’s Holden’s plant and keeps it busy.
The G8 has one other Ace: it can fill the role as a once model brand, but it can also have distinct variations of said model. The Holden Ute and Sportwagon offer Pontiac unique, niche entries into the market. These models are built on the same assembly line as the sedan. This means that production could be shifted for the three based on demand, and because the sedan has already been modified for the US market, it would require fairly little cost to make the other two comply with US standard. There is nothing like them for sale in the NA market (since the discontinuation of the Magnum), which gives Pontiac a genuine purpose for being kept alive, and since it’s role is to be a niche brand, it would not be required to set the sales charts on fire.

So there you have it. Pontiac: one model in three distinct flavors. A focused, proud, niche brand.

[balthazar]

If Pontiac is indeed to become a 1-model marque for a while, and somehow that 1 model could incorporate the G8 sedan, a G8 coupe and ST, I'm fine with that. It reminds me of pre-1961 when Pontiac had 1 basic body with a variety of styles & trims- could work really well for that small of an investment- since the point about having no domestic competition (there is foreign competition, tho) is a great one. I'd be saddened to see the Solstice go, but that tradeoff would be one I'd vote for if the 3-variant G8 line would see daylight.

[buyacargetacheck]

Right, prior to GM offering "compacts" each GM brand usually had only one or two basic wheelbases. There is valid precedent here. Drop the "G8" name and just call it "Pontiac 3.6" or "Pontiac 6.0" or "Pontiac 6.2." As I've written elsewhere this could work for Buick too. I strongly disagree, however, with expanding the Pontiac line with wagons and Utes. The Magnum has proven that even an aggressively styled wagon marketed as a hatchback will not be successful in the US. And the Commodore wagon, to make matters worse, looks like a wagon. And the Ute is doomed to failure. US buyers long ago gave the final verdict on the El Camino and Ranchero. Even the fuel efficient Rampage and VW Truck didn't last. Too many compromises for too much money. Plus it blurs Pontiac's image, which is frail as it is already.

[Z-06]

If Pontiac is indeed to become a 1-model marque for a while, and somehow that 1 model could incorporate the G8 sedan, a G8 coupe and ST, I'm fine with that. It reminds me of pre-1961 when Pontiac had 1 basic body with a variety of styles & trims- could work really well for that small of an investment- since the point about having no domestic competition (there is foreign competition, tho) is a great one. I'd be saddened to see the Solstice go, but that tradeoff would be one I'd vote for if the 3-variant G8 line would see daylight.

Or it could be an alpha. Since zeta is too heavy and not geared to CAFE 2020 according to some folks.

I would however like to see a convertible and wagon in the mix too.

[Intrepidation]

Right, prior to GM offering "compacts" each GM brand usually had only one or two basic wheelbases. There is valid precedent here. Drop the "G8" name and just call it "Pontiac 3.6" or "Pontiac 6.0" or "Pontiac 6.2." As I've written elsewhere this could work for Buick too. I strongly disagree, however, with expanding the Pontiac line with wagons and Utes. The Magnum has proven that even an aggressively styled wagon marketed as a hatchback will not be successful in the US. And the Commodore wagon, to make matters worse, looks like a wagon. And the Ute is doomed to failure. US buyers long ago gave the final verdict on the El Camino and Ranchero. Even the fuel efficient Rampage and VW Truck didn't last. Too many compromises for too much money. Plus it blurs Pontiac's image, which is frail as it is already.

The Magnum's downfall was also that it was intended to be high volume, if we are going by Pontiac being a niche, lower volume brand, taht wouldn't be as much of an issue. Plus, as I said, production could be adjusted based on demand for the particular models. As well, the Ute could be successful as a niche model, because there are a lot of fans of the El Camino who want a new one. If it's alow volume product that number of potential buyers could be spread out. I thinka ll 3 would keep in line with Pontiac's focus, as performance oriented vehicles, because they all are,

Or it could be an alpha. Since zeta is too heavy and not geared to CAFE 2020 according to some folks.

I would however like to see a convertible and wagon in the mix too.

Again, if it's lower volume it should be as big of an issue, plus Holden was reportedly looking into a hybrid system for the Commodore. Alpha is a nice thought but costs more to develop for Pontiac, and with Chevy getting one already, you'd get overlap.

[balthazar]

I see a Pontiac ST as a low-volume alternative to some people coming out of trucks- I think it would prove itself viable.

Rampage & VW truck were awful vehicles with no aspirational attributes- no wonder they bombed. Besides, the 'ElCamino final verdict' was a lo-oong time ago; perceptions & wants/needs change. The investment would be minimal.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You guys make me laugh ... :rotflmao:

[Intrepidation]

You guys make me laugh ... :rotflmao:

Why, exactly?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why, exactly?

Not so much at you DF, but some of the thoughts here, well it's like they aren't even listening to what GM has said.

The plug is about to be pulled from the ST, the Holden wagon was already given the thumbs down for coming to North America, besides the Zeta itself is due to be redesigned soon, but I doubt it will be now so it's future isn't looking so bright, yet many here are pinning all their hopes on Zeta, why?

As for Pontiac getting an Alpha, that won't happen either since only the corp brands of CHEVROLET, BUICK and CADILLAC will get an Alpha. Pontiac isn't a corp brand and little to no money will be spent on it, GM's words, not mine.

But some of these thoughts expressed here make for amusing reading, at least for me.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Intrepidation]

Not so much at you DF, but some of the thoughts here, well it's like they aren't even listening to what GM has said.

The plug is about to be pulled from the ST, the Holden wagon was already given the thumbs down for coming to North America, besides the Zeta itself is due to be redesigned soon, but I doubt it will be now so it's future isn't looking so bright, yet many here are pinning all their hopes on Zeta, why?

As for Pontiac getting an Alpha, that won't happen either since only the corp brands of CHEVROLET, BUICK and CADILLAC will get an Alpha. Pontiac isn't a corp brand and little to no money will be spent on it, GM's words, not mine.

But some of these thoughts expressed here make for amusing reading, at least for me.

if Zeta is to be redesign soon this further proves my idea has merit in terms of cost. Holden redesigns Zeta for it's Commodore. The G8 is a Commodore. SO the next gen G8 needs nothing beyond whatever crash standard it needs, left hand drive, and some Pontiac cues.

Unless they were just planning to kill Zeta, then that doesn't do much good.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Unless they were just planning to kill Zeta, then that doesn't do much good.

It's a dead platform walking!

[balthazar]

A-ha-ha. O-ho-ho. Tee-hee.

So what would Pontiac's 1 model be, or did I miss that PR?

The G3 ? The Vibe?

Why bother.

When is Zeta slated to die?

[pow]

Who knows... the Corvette is its own "make" in Europe. Maybe in the future, when people ask, "What do you drive?" and you say "A Pontiac", they'll know exactly what that is.

[SAmadei]

It's a dead platform walking!

So GM is going to just give up selling the most popular car in Australia? GM has this luxury?

Let Holden make Zeta derivatives for the next 25 years... like the mileage GM got out of the old B-bodies, and simply import a few to the US. There are plenty of people who would buy B-bodies today (With a LS2 or L76 and a 6L80)... twelve years after the last one fell off the Arlington assembly line.

As someone else mentioned, its as simple as making it LHD, creating a plastic Pontiac nose and crash testing a few of them. This is not a huge expensive task, as Holden will already be paying for the R&D for the Commodore.

If GM can't handle this easy task, it's doomed. I'll look forward to all of GM management hitting the unemployment lines.

For a dead platform, it sure gets rave reviews in the auto magazines. Unlike the rest of the usual crap.

[Z-06]

Not so much at you DF, but some of the thoughts here, well it's like they aren't even listening to what GM has said.

The plug is about to be pulled from the ST, the Holden wagon was already given the thumbs down for coming to North America, besides the Zeta itself is due to be redesigned soon, but I doubt it will be now so it's future isn't looking so bright, yet many here are pinning all their hopes on Zeta, why?

As for Pontiac getting an Alpha, that won't happen either since only the corp brands of CHEVROLET, BUICK and CADILLAC will get an Alpha. Pontiac isn't a corp brand and little to no money will be spent on it, GM's words, not mine.

But some of these thoughts expressed here make for amusing reading, at least for me.

So a FWD EPII with all those body styles?

[Drew Dowdell]

The Magnum has proven that even an aggressively styled wagon marketed as a hatchback will not be successful in the US. And the Commodore wagon, to make matters worse, looks like a wagon. And the Ute is doomed to failure. US buyers long ago gave the final verdict on the El Camino and Ranchero.

A sample size of one proves nothing. I like the idea of the Magnum, but wouldn't buy one because 1) it's a Dodge. 2) Interior that would make a Pontiac blush. 3) minimal additional utility.

As far as the Ute is concerned, no it won't be the next F-150, but times have very much changed. Gas prices are still big in the minds of people. The Ute has a chance.

[smk4565]

I think the "niche" strategy is GM public relations smoke screen for an eventual phase out of the brand. They can't get rid of Saturn, Saab, Hummer, Pontiac all in the same year. So Pontiac will drop to Solstice and G8 until around 2011-2012 when I suspect the brand is eliminated. Barring some miracle comeback in auto sales volume.

[regfootball]

i would keep a g8 (sedan and wagon), the solstice (assumes the sky is gone if they shut down saturn), and seriously a g6 (next aura? / because there are some who don't want a chevy and don't want a buick). if saturn dies than pontiac gets an astra. that is what i would do. i would consider running pontiac at 100k volume then.

it sounds though like GM is saying to holden, no more aussie chassis for you. you will assimilate.

Edited December 17, 2008 by regfootball

[Intrepidation]

So GM is going to just give up selling the most popular car in Australia? GM has this luxury?

Let Holden make Zeta derivatives for the next 25 years... like the mileage GM got out of the old B-bodies, and simply import a few to the US. There are plenty of people who would buy B-bodies today (With a LS2 or L76 and a 6L80)... twelve years after the last one fell off the Arlington assembly line.

As someone else mentioned, its as simple as making it LHD, creating a plastic Pontiac nose and crash testing a few of them. This is not a huge expensive task, as Holden will already be paying for the R&D for the Commodore.

If GM can't handle this easy task, it's doomed. I'll look forward to all of GM management hitting the unemployment lines.

For a dead platform, it sure gets rave reviews in the auto magazines. Unlike the rest of the usual crap.

[gm4life]

Actually I do think there will be a smaller Pontiac, but hope for the best. I see a future Pontiac with a G6 and G8 along with the Solstice. That might be it. That is okay so long as the Solstice/G6 have unique styling. I don't mind platform sharing but they need different styling inside and out and sporty ride/handling. People like me are around that prefer a Pontiac and don't want a BUICK (I know the age is coming down still for old farts) or a Chevrolet. I own a Chevy but it is nice to have something more sporty and less common. There is market for Pontiac but let me be honest many of people will be upset if Pontiac goes the way with olds.

I have already sent GM a letter stating my concerns about the future of Pontiac, prolly won't do any good but I let them have it.

Edited December 17, 2008 by gm4life

[hyperv6]

Actually I do think there will be a smaller Pontiac, but hope for the best. I see a future Pontiac with a G6 and G8 along with the Solstice. That might be it. That is okay so long as the Solstice/G6 have unique styling. I don't mind platform sharing but they need different styling inside and out and sporty ride/handling. People like me are around that prefer a Pontiac and don't want a BUICK (I know the age is coming down still for old farts) or a Chevrolet. I own a Chevy but it is nice to have something more sporty and less common. There is market for Pontiac but let me be honest many of people will be upset if Pontiac goes the way with olds.

I have already sent GM a letter stating my concerns about the future of Pontiac, prolly won't do any good but I let them have it.

Did you send them a check to help pay to make your dreams come true?

There might be a market for Pontiac but GM can hardly afford to market Chevy properly let alone a wide range of models. Lutz pointed this out in how the Malibu was marketed with $200 million dollars and the Aura with near nothing. The Malibu sold at 3 to 1 to the Aura.

GM is to the point they can sell a lot of models half a$$ or they can sell less models more focused tot he public and try to win people back form Toyota and Honda.

The question is how many models can GM afford to market properly?

I will not be happy to see Pontiac go but if they can not build and market car properly due to the lack of money it does no one any good. Lets face it the G8 is a mystery to many in the market place. They don't know how good it is nor how affordable it is. The G8 is the kind of car that should not be sitting on dealer lots prior to the the down turn but they were.

I hope things work out but I know it is business and sometimes they have to do what needs to be done popular or not.

[haypops]

I think that Pontiac as a niche performance car for the PBG sales channel is a non-starter. The three brands appeal to different age groups, not different horsepower aficionados. GMC well sell to young families and the Buick to more mature managers, and their families. The Pontiac is best aimed at young 20's singles/secretaries. To that end the niche lineup would include the G6 coupe and convertible(no sedan). Add to that a Solstice coupe but no roadster. Crime is likely to increase in society and the safety of the ON Star feature should be emphasized. The Sky as only a roadster can be sold as a Chevy.

[gm4life]

Did you send them a check to help pay to make your dreams come true?

There might be a market for Pontiac but GM can hardly afford to market Chevy properly let alone a wide range of models. Lutz pointed this out in how the Malibu was marketed with $200 million dollars and the Aura with near nothing. The Malibu sold at 3 to 1 to the Aura.

GM is to the point they can sell a lot of models half a$$ or they can sell less models more focused tot he public and try to win people back form Toyota and Honda.

The question is how many models can GM afford to market properly?

I will not be happy to see Pontiac go but if they can not build and market car properly due to the lack of money it does no one any good. Lets face it the G8 is a mystery to many in the market place. They don't know how good it is nor how affordable it is. The G8 is the kind of car that should not be sitting on dealer lots prior to the the down turn but they were.

I hope things work out but I know it is business and sometimes they have to do what needs to be done popular or not.

I sent them an email. I send them money when I pick the Pontiac product over a Chevrolet.

[hyperv6]

I sent them an email. I send them money when I pick the Pontiac product over a Chevrolet.

Which ONE?

Something we may have to consider is the one Pontiac I would at least hope is the G8. If not a newer model to replace it.

But also is GM going the cheap way out to keep one Pontiac to not have to pay the dealers at this time. One Pontiac that is very cheap to produce and the only one to show a increase in sales? The one Pontiac that I count even less a Pontiac than a Rebadged Aveo. The Vibe?

The Vibe is a very cheap car for GM to offer since they really do so little to produce it.

I hate to see it but if Pontiac is cut down just for the money the Vibe may be the only one that could live to prevent pay outs and keep the name going till a later time. GM could eaily let someone else do the work of building a Pontiac for them. Rebranding is worse than rebadging.

[hyperv6]

I sent them an email. I send them money when I pick the Pontiac product over a Chevrolet.

Which ONE?

Something we may have to consider is the one Pontiac I would at least hope is the G8. If not a newer model to replace it.

But also is GM going the cheap way out to keep one Pontiac to not have to pay the dealers at this time. One Pontiac that is very cheap to produce and the only one to show a increase in sales? The one Pontiac that I count even less a Pontiac than a Rebadged Aveo. The Vibe?

The Vibe is a very cheap car for GM to offer since they really do so little to produce it.

I hate to see it but if Pontiac is cut down just for the money the Vibe may be the only one that could live to prevent pay outs and keep the name going till a later time. GM could eaily let someone else do the work of building a Pontiac for them. Rebranding is worse than rebadging.

[ehaase]

The one Pontiac that I count even less a Pontiac than a Rebadged Aveo. The Vibe?

The Vibe is a very cheap car for GM to offer since they really do so little to produce it.

I hate to see it but if Pontiac is cut down just for the money the Vibe may be the only one that could live to prevent pay outs and keep the name going till a later time. GM could eaily let someone else do the work of building a Pontiac for them. Rebranding is worse than rebadging.

Based upon this article which most here have probably already read - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...ANA03/812150341 - I think there is a 45 percent chance the G8 will be the one surviving Pontiac, a 45 percent chance that the Vibe will be the one surviving Pontiac; and a 10 percent chance that G6 coupe and convertible would be the surviving Pontiacs. I don't know what Holden's plans are for the future of the Commodore.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Don't you see what is happening, GM is starving Pontiac of product, hoping that the Pontiac part of BPG withers and dies. All the while increasing platforms within Buick the core Brand. With a one platform lineup customers will soon forget about Pontiac and BPG dealers will order fewer and fewer Pontiacs until they just don't order them at all. This is a good legal strategy so GM won't have to buyout the dealers and can say, since very few dealers are ordering Pontiac, and in most cases none are, the brand will be shut down.

[evok]

Based upon this article which most here have probably already read - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...ANA03/812150341 - I think there is a 45 percent chance the G8 will be the one surviving Pontiac, a 45 percent chance that the Vibe will be the one surviving Pontiac; and a 10 percent chance that G6 coupe and convertible would be the surviving Pontiacs. I don't know what Holden's plans are for the future of the Commodore.

Personally - If the numbers could justify it I would move the job shop that is the Solstice line to the Vette plant when XLR is axed and Willmington is finally put out of it misery.

Kill the Sky and make the Solstice Coupe and Convertible the global vehicle. Under this senario Pontiac would consist of just the Solstice and G8 for the time being. The products either stand on their own or the brand goes away over time as sales dry up.

As far as the Vibe and G6 Coupe/Vert I would give each a solid facelift and give them to Buick with the couple called Riviera. Depending on volume make it in China and import to the US. With Chrysler soon to go away, a Buick G6 convertible would make a nice addition for the FL crowd.

If possible I would like to see the G6 get a cosmetic redo from the beltline down and adopt the Regal/Lacross interior if it is cheap just to bolt it right in.

Edited December 20, 2008 by evok

[haypops]

Depending on volume make it in China and import to the US. With Chrysler soon to go away, a Buick G6 convertible would make a nice addition for the FL crowd.

All good suggestions, but didn't the Bush requirements include no additional offshoring of jobs? Since the production lines/tooling is already in place, can't G6 production economicaly limp along in the U.S.?

[evok]

All good suggestions, but didn't the Bush requirements include no additional offshoring of jobs? Since the production lines/tooling is already in place, can't G6 production economicaly limp along in the U.S.?

I am not aware of any such conditions place on them. It was discussed at the hearings but it was not even part of the draft bill that failed to gain congressional support.

But sure, GM could keep the current G6 in the line up without spending money on it as long as it is legal to sell.

That has been the plan.

It just has always bothered me Pontiac got the hard top convertible when it would have made a perfect Buick and natural for a revival of the Riv. For a relatively small investment I would love to see GM do just that with the current vehicle. Plus Buick is considered more of a premium brand and warranted to 30k price.

Edited December 20, 2008 by evok

[Camino LS6]

Don't you see what is happening, GM is starving Pontiac of product, hoping that the Pontiac part of BPG withers and dies. All the while increasing platforms within Buick the core Brand. With a one platform lineup customers will soon forget about Pontiac and BPG dealers will order fewer and fewer Pontiacs until they just don't order them at all. This is a good legal strategy so GM won't have to buyout the dealers and can say, since very few dealers are ordering Pontiac, and in most cases none are, the brand will be shut down.

A doomed strategy formulated by a failure mentality.

[Satty]

Speaking of Pontiac, why doesn't Avis apply my corporate discount towards the rental of a Solstice?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The plug is about to be pulled from the ST,

Nothing official yet...

And I say that because you make me laugh... All that bullsh*t about Saturn being the new godsend and now they've got the gun to their head to follow Oldsmobile into the grave. What? Are you going to change your story to "Buick will be the savior of GM" now?

My point is: EVERYTHING IS UP IN THE AIR RIGHT NOW. GM DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT'S DOING NEXT WEEK, MUCH LESS 5 YEARS FROM NOW

the Holden wagon was already given the thumbs down for coming to North America

So? Wouldn't be the first time GM has planned a product, cancelled it, planned it again and finally delivered. GM is so schizo that the wagon might make it here after all. ESPECIALLY now that the planned Saturn "Insignia wagon" will likely not be coming here.

besides the Zeta itself is due to be redesigned soon, but I doubt it will be now so it's future isn't looking so bright,

Funny, all reports from Oz say that Holden is doing everything it can to advance Zeta or even make it continue to be viable if the redesign is delayed.

yet many here are pinning all their hopes on Zeta, why?

Because it is a unique, EASY solution to the problem AND the most likely answer to the question. Why couldn't Pontiac sell a line of Zetas, ESPECIALLY if the efficiency of the platform is vastly improved? The demand is there, the potential is there, so why not?

Holden CERTAINLY isn't going anywhere because 1) GM has given it the greenlight on the Volt and 2) GM doesn't have the damn money to launch Chevrolet in Oz, even if they wanted to. Therefore, Buick = Opel and Pontiac = Holden.

As for Pontiac getting an Alpha, that won't happen either since only the corp brands of CHEVROLET, BUICK and CADILLAC will get an Alpha.

What does that have to do with anything? I guess by that logic, Opel won't be receiving an Alpha and neither will Holden (which has stated that it is already toying with the idea of a Commodore replacement on Alpha) Even if GM doesn't develop an Alpha for Pontiac (last I heard, Pontiac is still being considered) it won't be that hard to spend $5 and make a Chinese Buick into a Pontiac for NA.

That is, assuming Alpha even sees the light of day in the first place... Last I heard, it was significantly delayed and WAS NOT a priority within GM.

Pontiac isn't a corp brand and little to no money will be spent on it, GM's words, not mine.

GMNA* would not be spending much money on it. And that's okay (for now) because it doesn't need to. For instance; The G8 can be developed by Holden and then VERY little money spent to put a new face on it and bring it here (As long as the currency exchange is favorable, the G8 remains profitable) The Solstice can weather the storm for a while with minimal investment, as there are no major 'engineering hurdles or regualtions' that will jeopardize the car anytime soon. And the Vibe is developed mostly by Toyota. VOILA! A 3 model Pontiac line up that requires little to NO investment from GMNA.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So GM is going to just give up selling the most popular car in Australia? GM has this luxury?

Part of me wants to say no... But then I look up and see that APPARENTLY, GM has the "luxury" of reducing their best selling division in Canada and their 2nd best selling car division in america to niche status, so why not?

I dunno, I guess GM has decided that it is going to 'give up' and die. Or they're just THAT DAMN STUPID.

As someone else mentioned, its as simple as making it LHD, creating a plastic Pontiac nose and crash testing a few of them. This is not a huge expensive task, as Holden will already be paying for the R&D for the Commodore.

If GM can't handle this easy task, it's doomed. I'll look forward to all of GM management hitting the unemployment lines.

For a dead platform, it sure gets rave reviews in the auto magazines. Unlike the rest of the usual crap.

My guess is this:

Consider the following; 1) We all know that Pontiac is probably the most damaged of all the GM divisions here. 2) GM makes more ROI from Buick (Remember, profit over share now apparently) 3) Pontiac is not global, GM's growth IS global. GM does not have the money or need to establish another global division.

Therefore; GM is limiting Pontiac down to 1-3 models for now. If they are successful at repairing the image of the division with these (supposedly strong and focused) products. GM can then expand the brand again (although I don't think it'll ever be "volume" like it is now, nor should it be) when it has $$$ to play with -AND get a higher ROI. That would finally put Pontiac as premium to Chevrolet and allow it to fit into the BPG channel nicely instead of standing out like a cheaply bandaged sore thumb. So, in essence, GM KNOWS that the division has a lot of potential (huge equity and a solid identity, but not a mainstream identity) but GM doesn't have the resources to fund the transformation right now. But when GM is in better shape in a few years, it can grow the brand and it's share back into something with a more 'premium' status. (Basically, GM is saying "hold that thought" and betting the division's future on if the company survives in a state that it is needed)

I think the move to keep the G8 above all else is the first step in that direction because it 1) establishes a HIGHER $$$ to enter the Pontiac brand and 2) has a better ROI given that it is basically "icing on the cake" to the Commodore program.

-OR- Pontiac is being parred down to be killed 1) If the image doesn't recover and 2) If, at all costs, GM simply cannot make a good ROI on the division.

Honestly, I think GM recognizes the potential of the division and DOES wish for it's future growth and success and is basically putting the division on hiatus. If that weren't the case, GM would've just phased the division out DESPITE the dealers. GM is basically bankrupt. In a few days they will be government backed and will be battling the UAW over MAJOR issues. What the hell makes anyone think that they would be afraid to take on dealers? Dealers that saw the writing on the wall anyway and essentially have 2 replacement divisions.

That said, I also think that Pontiac is at a crucial and fragile point right now and things could go either way. I mean, why phase it out if it STILL appeals to so many people (sales numbers) and isn't a cost burden? This is where Pontiac has the advantage that Saturn doesn't; being in a channel with Buick and GMC means that Pontiac has LITTLE to no overhead. And that gets reduced even further with less models and no GMNA development. Not to mention it could, down the road, be a defining division and a HUGE growth potential. So, GM essentially compromised.

Edited December 21, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

(smk4565 @ Dec 17 2008, 11:20 AM)

I think the "niche" strategy is GM public relations smoke screen for an eventual phase out of the brand. They can't get rid of Saturn, Saab, Hummer, Pontiac all in the same year. So Pontiac will drop to Solstice and G8 until around 2011-2012 when I suspect the brand is eliminated. Barring some miracle comeback in auto sales volume.

Now what, is wrong with that statement?

(Pontiac doesn't = sales volume now)

Did you send them a check to help pay to make your dreams come true?

There might be a market for Pontiac but GM can hardly afford to market Chevy properly let alone a wide range of models. Lutz pointed this out in how the Malibu was marketed with $200 million dollars and the Aura with near nothing. The Malibu sold at 3 to 1 to the Aura.

I agree that the Aura/Saturn budget is sh*tty, but how much of that is related to dealership availability? (Just to be fair)

(Pontiac Custom-S @ Dec 20 2008, 11:21 AM)

Don't you see what is happening, GM is starving Pontiac of product, hoping that the Pontiac part of BPG withers and dies. All the while increasing platforms within Buick the core Brand. With a one platform lineup customers will soon forget about Pontiac and BPG dealers will order fewer and fewer Pontiacs until they just don't order them at all. This is a good legal strategy so GM won't have to buyout the dealers and can say, since very few dealers are ordering Pontiac, and in most cases none are, the brand will be shut down.

Unless GM correctly markets the car to enthusiasts and can actually satisfy the niche role that they laid out for the division. Not to mention, as I said earlier, the G8 is pretty much pure profit so sales numbers don't matter that much.

Not trying to be an ass, but I'm tired of the anti-Pontiac tirade. I thought it would've died when your division of choice got it's papers.

Personally - If the numbers could justify it I would move the job shop that is the Solstice line to the Vette plant when XLR is axed and Willmington is finally put out of it misery.

Kill the Sky and make the Solstice Coupe and Convertible the global vehicle. Under this senario Pontiac would consist of just the Solstice and G8 for the time being. The products either stand on their own or the brand goes away over time as sales dry up.

+1

And wasn't that the original plan for Kappa II? (Bowling Green)

It just has always bothered me Pontiac got the hard top convertible when it would have made a perfect Buick and natural for a revival of the Riv. For a relatively small investment I would love to see GM do just that with the current vehicle. Plus Buick is considered more of a premium brand and warranted to 30k price.

Especially in light of the Cielo concepts from the 90's

Edited December 21, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

One car won't get the job done - but one family of cars could.

G8 and variants would be a good starting point ( but they should have been here 5 years ago).

A similar Alpha lineup would also be workable (preferably as a companion lineup, but also ok as a replacement).

Add a new Solstice, and you have built the brand I'd remain loyal to.

[A Horse With No Name]

Exactly. A G8 family of cars and a new, fresh Solstice, including a Solstice Targa....Hmmmm...

Chris

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not trying to be an ass, but I'm tired of the anti-Pontiac tirade. I thought it would've died when your division of choice got it's papers.

My division of choice as you put it has always been Opel, I really don't care what GMNA brand sells our cars as long as they do! :AH-HA_wink:

[Blake Noble]

Same $h!, different thread. It's vanilla now.

[gm4life]

I chose a Torrent over an Equinox. A Bonneville over an Impala.

[regfootball]

IF SATURN DIES

then pontiac should be

g8 (add awd capability to the zeta chassis) -commodore (future g8 model may be a large epsilon like platform) 30k / yr

g6 (alpha, with awd capabilities) - torana 40k / yr

solstice (including targa, next solstice is on alpha as well as the next camaro) 20k / yr

g4 astra (give pontiac the astra) 40k / yr

that's niche enough. we can do 100-150k per annum here with this.

adopt some of the customer service model learned from saturn to the BPG chain.

THAT'S NICHE ENOUGH. if you kill saturn, good God, don't kill off all of Pontiac!!!!!

Edited December 22, 2008 by regfootball

[gm4life]

IF SATURN DIES

then pontiac should be

g8 (add awd capability to the zeta chassis) -commodore (future g8 model may be a large epsilon like platform) 30k / yr

g6 (alpha, with awd capabilities) - torana 40k / yr

solstice (including targa, next solstice is on alpha as well as the next camaro) 20k / yr

g4 astra (give pontiac the astra) 40k / yr

that's niche enough. we can do 100-150k per annum here with this.

adopt some of the customer service model learned from saturn to the BPG chain.

THAT'S NICHE ENOUGH. if you kill saturn, good God, don't kill off all of Pontiac!!!!!

Wow that would make way to much sense for GM to actually do that. BUT GREAT IDEA, AND I AGREE ALMOST PERFECTLY.

[hyperv6]

Based upon this article which most here have probably already read - http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...ANA03/812150341 - I think there is a 45 percent chance the G8 will be the one surviving Pontiac, a 45 percent chance that the Vibe will be the one surviving Pontiac; and a 10 percent chance that G6 coupe and convertible would be the surviving Pontiacs. I don't know what Holden's plans are for the future of the Commodore.

It could vary well be the G8 but as a Zeta it life is limited unless it goes to a Alpha.

At this point no one here knows for sure what is going to happen so putting odds on any of them is a bit extream.

I expect what ever model they save it will not meet with the approval of many here. Their best cars the G8 and Solstice have limited lives at this point.

[regfootball]

Wow that would make way to much sense for GM to actually do that. BUT GREAT IDEA, AND I AGREE ALMOST PERFECTLY.

i would add trunk space to the solstice....LOL

[gm4life]

More trunk space would be a good idea.

[mustang84]

IF SATURN DIES

then pontiac should be

g8 (add awd capability to the zeta chassis) -commodore (future g8 model may be a large epsilon like platform) 30k / yr

g6 (alpha, with awd capabilities) - torana 40k / yr

solstice (including targa, next solstice is on alpha as well as the next camaro) 20k / yr

g4 astra (give pontiac the astra) 40k / yr

that's niche enough. we can do 100-150k per annum here with this.

adopt some of the customer service model learned from saturn to the BPG chain.

THAT'S NICHE ENOUGH. if you kill saturn, good God, don't kill off all of Pontiac!!!!!

I like that plan. Even a lineup consisting of just an alpha sedan, coupe, and wagon is appealing to me.

I don't give two cents what happens to Saturn. The Saturn model of dealership service should be adopted by all GM divisions. The service and the polymer doors were really the only two things that made Saturn unique. The Astra would make a great Pontiac, the Malibu can ride it out alone, and the Vue and Outlook really aren't needed when you have the new Equinox, Traverse, Enclave, etc.

[cire]

Unfortunately, I still think a lot of people are positioning themselves for a major letdown. I really don't see Pontiac receiving any unique RWD products in the future. I would love to see this happen just as much as everyone else, but I am not getting my hopes up for fear of a major disappointment.

I think GM will follow one of 2 paths concerning Pontiac's future:

1) Reduce the brand down to any products in its current lineup that don't overlap or directly compete with other GM products and quietly phase the brand out. I see GM reducing Pontiac down to the Vibe wagon (which would continue to give B-P-G a FWD small vehicle until Buick receives rebadged next gen Opels), the Solstice coupe (the Sky will become the lone roadster until Kappa is phased out), the G6 coupe & convertible (there are no FWD midsize coupes or cabrios in any other GM lineups), and the G8 sedan (the only affordable RWD sedan at GM). All other products (G3, G5, G6 sedan, Torrent, Solstice roadster, and G8 ST) will be cancelled, discontinued, or relegated to fleet sales. Once Buick begins receiving rebadged Opel products to complete the smaller portions of its lineup and the current Pontiac products reach the end of their model cycles, GM will discontinue the brand.

2) Pontiac will be positioned as a sporty entry premium sub-brand to Buick and pick up the rebadged Opel products that don't quite fit with Buick's image. I have a hard time imagining Buick selling the Corsa 3-door/5-door or the Astra 3-door/5-door. GM might keep Pontiac around to serve as an outlet for these vehicles (and possibly the Tigra/Astra TwinTops as well) at B-P-G dealerships.

Like many of you, I would rather see Pontiac receive a couple of affordable Alpha based RWD products instead of either of the two options listed above. I just don't have much faith in GM to carry out what we prefer to see, though. My wish would be that the hopeful among you are right and that I am wrong.

[cire]

Unfortunately, I still think a lot of people are positioning themselves for a major letdown. I really don't see Pontiac receiving any unique RWD products in the future. I would love to see this happen just as much as everyone else, but I am not getting my hopes up for fear of a major disappointment.

I think GM will follow one of 2 paths concerning Pontiac's future:

1) Reduce the brand down to any products in its current lineup that don't overlap or directly compete with other GM products and quietly phase the brand out. I see GM reducing Pontiac down to the Vibe wagon (which would continue to give B-P-G a FWD small vehicle until Buick receives rebadged next gen Opels), the Solstice coupe (the Sky will become the lone roadster until Kappa is phased out), the G6 coupe & convertible (there are no FWD midsize coupes or cabrios in any other GM lineups), and the G8 sedan (the only affordable RWD sedan at GM). All other products (G3, G5, G6 sedan, Torrent, Solstice roadster, and G8 ST) will be cancelled, discontinued, or relegated to fleet sales. Once Buick begins receiving rebadged Opel products to complete the smaller portions of its lineup and the current Pontiac products reach the end of their model cycles, GM will discontinue the brand.

2) Pontiac will be positioned as a sporty entry premium sub-brand to Buick and pick up the rebadged Opel products that don't quite fit with Buick's image. I have a hard time imagining Buick selling the Corsa 3-door/5-door or the Astra 3-door/5-door. GM might keep Pontiac around to serve as an outlet for these vehicles (and possibly the Tigra/Astra TwinTops as well) at B-P-G dealerships.

Like many of you, I would rather see Pontiac receive a couple of affordable Alpha based RWD products instead of either of the two options listed above. I just don't have much faith in GM to carry out what we prefer to see, though. My wish would be that the hopeful among you are right and that I am wrong.

As far as the plan I would like to see GM follow for Pontiac:

1) Designate the brand as an affordable performance sedan sub-brand and merge the brand with Chevrolet in the Affordable Dealer Network. Pontiac would feature a couple of RWD sedans that would serve as alternatives to the affordable FWD mainstream sedans that Chevrolet offers. With Pontiac merged with Chevrolet, Pontiac's products should receive more attention since Chevrolet is the high profile mainstream volume division.

2) Products:

* LeMans: RWD compact 5-door sedan with styling inspired by the Holden Torana TT36 Concept (SWB Alpha); this car would be sold as a resurrected Holden Torana in Australia, a Chevrolet Monza in the Middle East, a Daewoo in South Korea, etc.

* Grand Prix: RWD midsize sedan with styling merged with a downsized next gen Holden Commodore sedan (LWB Alpha); this car would be sold in the Middle East as the next gen Chevrolet Lumina, a Daewoo in South Korea, etc.

To me, this would be the perfect niche role and dealer network placement for Pontiac. I am seriously doubtful that it would ever happen.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

BTW

Just so everyone knows, LaNeve is now saying that he was misquoted about the Pontiac division being a one model division.

He claims that the reporter asked him; "If you could sell one car at Pontiac, what would it be?"

To which he replied; "The Firebird or Trans Am because those were my favorite Pontiacs."

Then, of course, our BRILLIANT media decided to run with the "variation" of the story that we got.

I seriously think GM has no clue about what they're going to do with Pontiac at this point. And I think that is somewhat by design. They need to get 'the big 4' worked out before they can worry about Pontiac and the other 'small' divisions.