U.S. Getting the Buick Regal

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Ven, I always look forward to your posts. It is nice to have at least one voice of sanity around here.

+1

It's nice to see someone so enthusiastic about Buick...

I'm actually very excited about Buick becoming/expanding (as) a core division

[Paolino]

+1

It's nice to see someone so enthusiastic about Buick...

I'm actually very excited about Buick becoming/expanding (as) a core division

+1

[vonVeezelsnider]

They're not that different...

Made in Canada at Oshawa too. I like the Idea of the Regal. Give it that interior and a DI-4 and that'll make a nice daily driver for me.

[Croc]

I have a few questions and I'd really appreciate brutal honesty on this:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

g) What are your current household vehicles?

I await your responses...I'll post mine in a little bit.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Croc

[Drew Dowdell]

I have a few questions and I'd really appreciate brutal honesty on this:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

g) What are your current household vehicles?

I await your responses...I'll post mine in a little bit.

a) The design, as is, is fine. I would like to see nicer leathers and additional color palettes made available.

b) I would expect a vehicle with this interior to start in $26k to $28k range.

c) $27k - $37k for a turbo V6 with AWD.

d) TSX, S40, Passat, MKZ, people willing/wanting to downsize from an ES/Lacrosse/Avalon, low end A4s if AWD is offered.

e) see above

f) If the price is the range I mentioned, it won't be.

g) '04 CRV that isn't even mine.

[Paolino]

I have a few questions and I'd really appreciate brutal honesty on this:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

g) What are your current household vehicles?

I await your responses...I'll post mine in a little bit.

a) Yes, although I'd change the woodgrain to something a little better, and offer a nice satin-nickle finish. I would LOVE to see something unique for an interior trim. Unique color options for leather.

b) I'd like to see the car start at $25,000 with this interior and go up to $31,000.

c) New Regal, starting at $25,000 with a 2.4L, maybe offer a direct injected 4 for a base and the new DI 3.0 as a CXS or Super.

d) Regal I could see competing with the TSX, S40. If it doesn't step on the LaCrosse's toes, then I'll be happy.

e) Regal should compete with above mentioned.

f) No, it would not bother me if the Regal was out of my financial reach... I have come to terms that Buick is moving forward, and I rather see it successful and higher-priced for the better product we're going to get, than see it the way it is now.

g) 1994 Buick Century Special

[Z-06]

I have a few questions and I'd really appreciate brutal honesty on this:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

g) What are your current household vehicles?

I await your responses...I'll post mine in a little bit.

a) Fairly acceptable. It could be a little bit simpler with less buttons.

b) 26-30K would be a good figure to shoot at.

c) See above.

d) Like olds and paoli said S40, TSX and lower end Audis - this could be a good segment since BMW 3er, C class have left and gone a step above. 90% performance at about 75% price.

e) Technically Regal should compete with both high optioned mid sizers, and the entry level premiums. Focused such way it sits on the fence of either side.

f) It would not, I can afford it.

g) Chevy Lumina, Honda TSX, Ford F150.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I have a few questions and I'd really appreciate brutal honesty on this:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

g) What are your current household vehicles?

I await your responses...I'll post mine in a little bit.

a) yes, maybe a different grain of wood though. The gray should really have a two tone coloring to it.

b) 38000$CDN max

c) 30-40K CDN

d) Acura TSX, Infiniti G37

e) Lincoln MXZ, Acura TSX, Infiniti G37

f) no

g) 2007 Impala, 2006 Malibu Maxx, 2007 G5

[Croc]

Let me clarify something. As-is means as-is.

That means no extra two-tone, no added/different woodgrain, no different button layout, nothing. Look at the picture, and answer based on the picture please.

The reason I'm saying this, is that every single one of you who said "yes" to the question, actually answered "no," with the possible exception of Oldsmoboi, who just said he wants to see more than one color and nicer leathers (than...what? I'm not sure).

NOBODY has so far argued (except, again, maybe Oldsmoboi), that this interior, as is is something they are perfectly happy with.

...and yet this interior is still 3 years out. Just saying...

Edited December 16, 2008 by Croc

[Drew Dowdell]

Let me clarify something. As-is means as-is.

That means no extra two-tone, no added/different woodgrain, no different button layout, nothing. Look at the picture, and answer based on the picture please.

The reason I'm saying this, is that every single one of you who said "yes" to the question, actually answered "no," with the possible exception of Oldsmoboi, who just said he wants to see more than one color and nicer leathers (than...what? I'm not sure).

NOBODY has so far argued (except, again, maybe Oldsmoboi), that this interior, as is is something they are perfectly happy with.

...and yet this interior is still 3 years out. Just saying...

Please identify one interior in any vehicle EVAR that will NOT have a single person on this site complain about something, anything in it.

Ready?

GO!

as for leathers, I like the stitching available in the Mercury Milan. Making stitched leather available on the dash as an upgrade would be helpful <and profitable for GM> also. I think this interior is fine as is, I was just hoping for more options in color and frills.

[Croc]

Please identify one interior in any vehicle EVAR that will NOT have a single person on this site complain about something, anything in it.

Ready?

GO!

as for leathers, I like the stitching available in the Mercury Milan. Making stitched leather available on the dash as an upgrade would be helpful <and profitable for GM> also. I think this interior is fine as is, I was just hoping for more options in color and frills.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by better leathers and more colors. Therefore, you have no problem with the interior.

My point was getting people to admit that, in whatever way, they found some aspect of this interior lacking. Note the changes the others mentioned: too much gray/not enough two-tone, different woodgrain, better woodgrain, some satin nickel accents, fewer buttons, etc.

Given that woodgrain was mentioned twice, as were interior colors, I'd say that is one area this needs improvement.

By the way, here are my answers:

a) Do you think this interior, as-is, is acceptable for a new Regal?

No. Not today, and certainly not in 2011.

b) How much would you pay for a vehicle with this interior?

Now? No more than 22k. In 2011, no more than 18k in today's dollars.

c) In what price range should a new Regal be priced?

$28k-$45k

d) What vehicles do you see the Regal competing with?

Camry, Accord, Azera, Jetta

e) What vehicles SHOULD the Regal compete with?

Genesis, TL, TSX, Passat, G sedan, ES330

f) Would it bother you if the Regal is out of your financial reach?

Not at all. Buicks should be something to aspire to own, something with a profit margin.

g) What are your current household vehicles?

2001 Oldsmobile Aurora 3.5, 2001 ML320

[Drew Dowdell]

Croc, I appreciate what you're trying to say, but you have to remember that the new Lacrosse is there to. We agree that the Regal should compete with the TSX and Passat, but the TL, Genesis, and ES are all bigger vehicles. This Regal cannot be stretched up to $45k nor should it be. $45k is upper range LaCrosse.

Think TSX v. TL

[smk4565]

The Regal is on Epsilon, the LaCrosse is on Epsilon, I don't see the point. They aren't that different like the Lucerne and DTS or Camry and Avalon, and we already have the Malibu on Epsilon for the mainstream, LaCrosse can be the step up like the TL and MKZ are.

a. If the Regal is the base mode Buick, yes

b. $29k

c. $29k

d. Azera, Milan Premier, Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse, Lucerne

e. Avalon, 2010 Taurus

f. nope, I wouldn't buy a Buick anyway

g. Oldsmobile Aurora 4.0

[Drew Dowdell]

The Regal is on Epsilon, the LaCrosse is on Epsilon, I don't see the point. They aren't that different like the Lucerne and DTS or Camry and Avalon, and we already have the Malibu on Epsilon for the mainstream, LaCrosse can be the step up like the TL and MKZ are.

a. If the Regal is the base mode Buick, yes

b. $29k

c. $29k

d. Azera, Milan Premier, Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse, Lucerne

e. Avalon, 2010 Taurus

f. nope, I wouldn't buy a Buick anyway

g. Oldsmobile Aurora 4.0

Two different wheelbases. The Regal is the smaller of the two.

I don't understand why you (and Croc) want the Regal to compete with or think it will compete with the likes of the Avalon, Taurus, Lucerne, ES330, Genesis?!?, and TL. The Regal is Saab 9-3 sized and has a 4-cylinder as a base engine. Somehow, it's supposed to compete with some of the largest sedans on the market including those with optional V8s?

Have some perspective please.

Edit: Does the TSX compete with Lucerne and Taurus and Genesis? Does the S40?

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I've been mulling this over the past week or so, and I actually think its a very good idea! Unfortunately, I also believe this will spell the end to the Saturn marque, since this was supposed to be the next Aura, and if GM is serious about changing and as much as I like a lot of the duplicate/triplicate vehicles, (such as Saturn Outlook to name one example), they will need to go, and I can't see the Aura-Insignia and this Regal, which is little changed from the former other than grille and a few other things, coexisting. This also would make a nice replacement for the Pontiac G6, which is tied with Dodge Avenger/Chrysler Sebring as my VERY least favorite mid-size cars, and to help Pontiac get on its way to either niche performance division, or extinction, which also sadly, seems inevitable.

And come 2016, these should both be replaced by one model.

[turbo200]

generic. slight organic look which is the most attractive element to the design. quality appeal is diminished because some finishes don't look very attractive, like the wood for example. this would make a great saturn, chevy, or pontiac interior. as the premium motorcar company, buick needs to redefine itself above this. this is a $24,000 interior to me. buick should have an interior that looks to start at the mid20's and go up from there, like the advanced Acura above or the great sheen from the volvo imparts. at least the doors look great.

already two years old and certainly at the head of its class, nissan finds itself in a quality and design parity with opel's newest offering. they're both equally interesting to look at. notice how nissan avoids garish cutlines and building from too many pieces, all the dash seems to come from one piece instead of all the different pieces. nissan's is not very organic design though.

simply beautiful and cutting edge. exactly what buick, opel should aspire for. this is unique which is the first great part about it. the colors, shapes, and controls are all different, special. this looks like it reaches into the $30k class, but bottoms out not far above there. supremely organic, made from one piece, it all juts out from one piece. very high quality look.

a new class standard, and exactly where buick should be headed for in terms of image. this imparts a luxury sport feel. quality is supreme, colors are extraordinarily good. controls and button design is unique and interesting. design is subdued, that may be a negative in this group, but perhaps that's the way a buick should be. tactical evasion of cutlines and gaps.

the regal looks like it seeks to be everything the current jetta is. generic and uncliched, non garish. but the jetta in america competes with lesser cars than the regal should go up against at a premium brand. and then there's the issue that the jetta is current and the regal won't be here for another three years, about the time when the current one gets redesigned.

mazda6 seems like a tailor-made competitor to the regal....now. therein lies the problem, and of course there is the idea that here in america mazda is seen more as a generic brand, even if it has a sporty bent, it's not meant to compete with more premium brands like volvo or even vw, but instead the likes of toyota and honda. i thought that was the job for chevy. and here we go back to the original dilemma which is GM's constant work at pitting itself against itself instead of managing the brands in such a way so that there is actual gradual grades and structures to each one.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Wow...

The two most attractive interiors in that post are the Opel and the Mazda 6. Everything else seems "generic" and "cheap" to me.

The less 'substance' and contrasting materials the interior has, the more it looks like a Rubbermaid tote IMO.

The Opel looks great (in comparison) because of all of the contrasting materials and the way they all flow together. It seems like much more attention was paid to detail and the car is much more 'tailored' to specific tolerances. Now, it's downfall might be the quality of the pieces (which IMO is impossible to determine from a picture)

Then again, my background, and subsequent source for comparison, is classic cars, so maybe that's why I don't want my interiors (or cars) to look like 1980's game consoles. I guess the majority of import buyers and media are from a different mindset.

Of course, I know I'm in the minority in this world, not many people have such good taste. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited December 16, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Drew Dowdell]

already two years old and certainly at the head of its class, Not even CLOSE to head of the class. You could swap Pontiac badges and red back lighting in there and have people think it's a G6 refresh.

simply beautiful and cutting edge. exactly what buick, opel should aspire for. this is unique which is the first great part about it. the colors, shapes, and controls are all different, special. this looks like it reaches into the $30k class, but bottoms out not far above there. supremely organic, made from one piece, it all juts out from one piece. very high quality look. I agree with you on this interior.

I physically recoiled when I saw this picture. I had never seen a picture of the new Maxima interior before. Thank you for saving me the money I would have spent on lunch. How can you say this is class leading when it looks like a W-body interior with an Infiniti parts bin audio/nav system? This is a new class of FAIL.

a new class standard, and exactly where buick should be headed for in terms of image. this imparts a luxury sport feel. quality is supreme, colors are extraordinarily good. controls and button design is unique and interesting. design is subdued, that may be a negative in this group, but perhaps that's the way a buick should be. tactical evasion of cutlines and gaps.

the regal looks like it seeks to be everything the current jetta is. generic and uncliched, non garish. but the jetta in america competes with lesser cars than the regal should go up against at a premium brand. and then there's the issue that the jetta is current and the regal won't be here for another three years, about the time when the current one gets redesigned. I don't see the resemblance to the Jetta. The Jetta is upright, flat, and with few curves. The Opel is very organic.

mazda6 seems like a tailor-made competitor to the regal....now. therein lies the problem, and of course there is the idea that here in america mazda is seen more as a generic brand, even if it has a sporty bent, it's not meant to compete with more premium brands like volvo or even vw, but instead the likes of toyota and honda. i thought that was the job for chevy. and here we go back to the original dilemma which is GM's constant work at pitting itself against itself instead of managing the brands in such a way so that there is actual gradual grades and structures to each one. Other than the hideous steering wheel, the Mazda isn't bad. It's a bit G.A.S. however.

[Drew Dowdell]

Regarding that first Nissan interior. At least the G6's airvents are all the same shape.

[smk4565]

Two different wheelbases. The Regal is the smaller of the two.

I don't understand why you (and Croc) want the Regal to compete with or think it will compete with the likes of the Avalon, Taurus, Lucerne, ES330, Genesis?!?, and TL. The Regal is Saab 9-3 sized and has a 4-cylinder as a base engine. Somehow, it's supposed to compete with some of the largest sedans on the market including those with optional V8s?

Have some perspective please.

Edit: Does the TSX compete with Lucerne and Taurus and Genesis? Does the S40?

The Insignia/Regal is 190.2 inches long, a Volvo S40 is 176, the TSX is 183. For the Regal to compete with those cars it would have to be Cobalt size at most. 190.2 puts it squarely against the Aura (190.9), Malibu (191., Milan (191.4), Azera (191.5), Camry in size (189.2). The Avalon and Taurus are bigger but similar price, and similar purpose of being a slight upgrade over the CamCords of the world.

Acuras/Nissan/Infiniti are too sporty for Buick to compete with.

No Buick competes with the Genesis. The Genesis is getting an 8-speed in 2010, the Lucerne still has 4. Even the STS V8 is 55 hp shy of the Hyundai.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Genesis is getting an 8-speed in 2010

Well &#036;h&#33;! Now what will BMW do?

[Robert Hall]

Well &#036;h&#33;! Now what will BMW do?

Maybe leapfrog them and offer a 16 speed!

[smk4565]

Well &#036;h&#33;! Now what will BMW do?

The 2010 5-series is getting an 8-speed from ZF. I'd imagine the 7-series will also.

Edited December 16, 2008 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

So BMW is playing catch up with Hyundai!

[Robert Hall]

So BMW is playing catch up with Hyundai!

Not necessarily, sounds like both are for MY 2010. More like trying to stay ahead of the other big league playas (Merc,Lexus,Audi).

[smk4565]

BMW is doing 8 gears in response to Lexus LS and GS having it. I am sure they could care less about Hyundai. BMW will probably have the 8-speed before Hyundai, so they aren't playing catch up to them. I give credit to Hyundai for trying with the Tau V8, and the features on the Genesis. It makes them look like a respectable brand, and they were a joke 15 years ago.

[ZL-1]

I give credit to Hyundai for trying with the Tau V8, and the features on the Genesis. It makes them look like a respectable brand, and they were a joke 15 years ago.

Hyundai is very interesting as they seem to be walking a very quick learning curve. I have nothing but admiration for their progress as a company.

[regfootball]

your post has no cred whatsoever because you included the altima. you want to talk dimestore?

mondeo is not here.

new maxima interior is an abortion.

jetta is ok, but lacks any sorts of visual interest and is bland overall. why set a low standard like that?

the key to the interior of this regal is execution. the design is fine. they need to get the materials and textures right, nice precise fits, nicer feeling switchgear.

someone suggested the azera as a benchmark. sure, if you like FAUX.

buick cannot nor should not be priced so high that it cannot sell in decent volume. again, not everyone wants chevy, not everyone wants caddy (too pricey too ghetto). buick needs to be better than toyota and i would say better than vw also. buick will never sell at audi prices. nor will it sell at lexus prices. hyundai is the spolier because it will redefine what you should pay for certain amenities, just as lexus and infiniti did way back when as well. when i think of the level of finish in the current volvo s60, that is about where maybe this regal should be, maybe a little less is acceptable. somewhere inbetween what a passat is and an s60 is about where a buick (maybe not the regal but the lacrosse) should be at.

http://www.km77.com/00/opel/insignia/g03.asp

now, i do think as a buick there needs to be much richer and genuine finishes, more interesting accents, and have good 'touch points' but i am willing to wait and see what the plastics turn out like also.

generic. slight organic look which is the most attractive element to the design. quality appeal is diminished because some finishes don't look very attractive, like the wood for example. this would make a great saturn, chevy, or pontiac interior. as the premium motorcar company, buick needs to redefine itself above this. this is a $24,000 interior to me. buick should have an interior that looks to start at the mid20's and go up from there, like the advanced Acura above or the great sheen from the volvo imparts. at least the doors look great.

already two years old and certainly at the head of its class, nissan finds itself in a quality and design parity with opel's newest offering. they're both equally interesting to look at. notice how nissan avoids garish cutlines and building from too many pieces, all the dash seems to come from one piece instead of all the different pieces. nissan's is not very organic design though.

simply beautiful and cutting edge. exactly what buick, opel should aspire for. this is unique which is the first great part about it. the colors, shapes, and controls are all different, special. this looks like it reaches into the $30k class, but bottoms out not far above there. supremely organic, made from one piece, it all juts out from one piece. very high quality look.

a new class standard, and exactly where buick should be headed for in terms of image. this imparts a luxury sport feel. quality is supreme, colors are extraordinarily good. controls and button design is unique and interesting. design is subdued, that may be a negative in this group, but perhaps that's the way a buick should be. tactical evasion of cutlines and gaps.

the regal looks like it seeks to be everything the current jetta is. generic and uncliched, non garish. but the jetta in america competes with lesser cars than the regal should go up against at a premium brand. and then there's the issue that the jetta is current and the regal won't be here for another three years, about the time when the current one gets redesigned.

mazda6 seems like a tailor-made competitor to the regal....now. therein lies the problem, and of course there is the idea that here in america mazda is seen more as a generic brand, even if it has a sporty bent, it's not meant to compete with more premium brands like volvo or even vw, but instead the likes of toyota and honda. i thought that was the job for chevy. and here we go back to the original dilemma which is GM's constant work at pitting itself against itself instead of managing the brands in such a way so that there is actual gradual grades and structures to each one.

Edited December 17, 2008 by regfootball

[vonVeezelsnider]

Um those interiors are not what Buick should be aspiring too at all, I daresay that the two tone Regal interior with the wood is nicer than everything else you posted.

In order from best to worst:

1) Regal

2) Maxima

3) Passat

4) Mazda

5) Altima

6) Mondeo

[pow]

The way I see it... if I'm going to spend extra for a "premium" brand, that vehicle better have some obvious advantages and improvements over the standard mainstream equivalent.

For instance, I love Volvo. It's far more interesting and far rarer than, say, Honda. But I'm unconvinced that an S60 is any more of a car than a well-equipped Accord, so if it were my money, I would ignore the Sven Eriksson IKEA garnish and go for the cheap one. I think lots of buyers feel the same.

I haven't looked at the Insignia in person, but from what I've read and seen on the interweb, I wouldn't pay a penny more than what Honda, Toyota, or Mazda charge for their midsize sedans, ~$27K for a leather-lined four-cylinder automatic model.

Perhaps to differentiate the Regal as a "premium" product, Buick can forgo the low introductory base prices of the mainstreamers ($22K for wheel cover, cloth, and manual A/C) and only offer well-equipped models.

[Croc]

Croc, I appreciate what you're trying to say, but you have to remember that the new Lacrosse is there to. We agree that the Regal should compete with the TSX and Passat, but the TL, Genesis, and ES are all bigger vehicles. This Regal cannot be stretched up to $45k nor should it be. $45k is upper range LaCrosse.

Think TSX v. TL

What do you mean "cannot...nor should it be"? Buick has to move upmarket eventually. Buick has to give the other remaining brands some breathing room. You can't run a successful company with every brand save Cadillac competing almost entirely in the 15-35k price range.

Buick is a luxury brand, and regardless of what happens to SAAB, Buick should duplicate its pricing model.

[Croc]

The way I see it... if I'm going to spend extra for a "premium" brand, that vehicle better have some obvious advantages and improvements over the standard mainstream equivalent.

For instance, I love Volvo. It's far more interesting and far rarer than, say, Honda. But I'm unconvinced that an S60 is any more of a car than a well-equipped Accord, so if it were my money, I would ignore the Sven Eriksson IKEA garnish and go for the cheap one. I think lots of buyers feel the same.

I haven't looked at the Insignia in person, but from what I've read and seen on the interweb, I wouldn't pay a penny more than what Honda, Toyota, or Mazda charge for their midsize sedans, ~$27K for a leather-lined four-cylinder automatic model.

Perhaps to differentiate the Regal as a "premium" product, Buick can forgo the low introductory base prices of the mainstreamers ($22K for wheel cover, cloth, and manual A/C) and only offer well-equipped models.

Bingo. If GM is serious anout Buick, they need to actually sell premium vehicles through it. As is, it's like they think Buicks are "premium" by virtue of the badge and that association hasn't held true since the mid-1970s.

[Drew Dowdell]

What do you mean "cannot...nor should it be"? Buick has to move upmarket eventually. Buick has to give the other remaining brands some breathing room. You can't run a successful company with every brand save Cadillac competing almost entirely in the 15-35k price range.

Buick is a luxury brand, and regardless of what happens to SAAB, Buick should duplicate its pricing model.

I just can't see the Regal being priced to 45k with the Lacross and Lucerne still above it. I don't understand the idea that a SWB Epsilon should compete with a G-body. Taurus, Maxima, or Avalon.

[Robert Hall]

What do you mean "cannot...nor should it be"? Buick has to move upmarket eventually. Buick has to give the other remaining brands some breathing room. You can't run a successful company with every brand save Cadillac competing almost entirely in the 15-35k price range.

Toyota does it...they have Toyota and Scion at the cheap end and Lexus at the high end (35k and up). The problem with moving Buick 'upmarket' is they run into Cadillac---Cadillac dealers aren't going to like having competition from Buick.

[Robert Hall]

I just can't see the Regal being priced to 45k with the Lacross and Lucerne still above it. I don't understand the idea that a SWB Epsilon should compete with a G-body. Taurus, Maxima, or Avalon.

I can't see that happening...I could see the Regal priced to compete with the Malibu, Aura, Milan, LTZ, TSX, Sebring, Camry. The '10 LaCrosse could theoretically compete with the Avalon, MKS, Maxima, TL... if they sell the Regal here, I could see it taking the place of the current LaCrosse (SWB Epsilon II) and the '10 LaCrosse taking the place of the Lucerne (LWB Epsilon II).

Though I'd love to see Buick have a flagship Park Avenue RWD V8 model to compete with the Genesis and 300, but it's not likely given the current reality.

Edited December 17, 2008 by moltar

[smk4565]

Toyota does it...they have Toyota and Scion at the cheap end and Lexus at the high end (35k and up). The problem with moving Buick 'upmarket' is they run into Cadillac---Cadillac dealers aren't going to like having competition from Buick.

There is a point around $40k where front drive cars stop selling. The DTS is declining, the S80 and 9-5 never had good sales, Acura RL despite being AWD, is front drive based andnever caught on. But the TL and ES do pretty well, the MKZ does okay; front drivers work in the $30s, but fade fast as price nears $40k. Buick sedans will be in that low $30s range (which is still an up market move from the mid to high $20s they are now) so they won't overlap Cadillac much.

I agree with your other post about Regal competing with the Aura and Malibu. GM competes best with GM.

[Croc]

I just can't see the Regal being priced to 45k with the Lacross and Lucerne still above it. I don't understand the idea that a SWB Epsilon should compete with a G-body. Taurus, Maxima, or Avalon.

G's are on their way out, and they are also different size classes. They do not compete.

Toyota does it...they have Toyota and Scion at the cheap end and Lexus at the high end (35k and up). The problem with moving Buick 'upmarket' is they run into Cadillac---Cadillac dealers aren't going to like having competition from Buick.

That's the point. Move Buick upmarket so Cadillac can move upmarket. Right now Cadillac makes the wonderful CTS, but it's playing dual roles, trying to compete with the 5-series, by the specs, but with the 3-series on price because GM needs an entry lux car. Let Buick be entry lux...you know, like it used to be back in the Sloane days when the divisional structure functioned and they didn't compete with each other anywhere near the extent they do now.

Also, as I have proposed in other previous threads, GM should structure their dealerships by division focus. Buick and Cadillac, both being luxury/near luxury marques, should be paired together. If Buick is to be remotely premium, why should those customers have to put up with the same type of service and volume-seller sales tactics at a Pontiac and GMC dealership use? It doesn't make sense. And then Cadillac dealers don't have a problem with a more premium Buick.

I can't see that happening...I could see the Regal priced to compete with the Malibu, Aura, Milan, LTZ, TSX, Sebring, Camry. The '10 LaCrosse could theoretically compete with the Avalon, MKS, Maxima, TL... if they sell the Regal here, I could see it taking the place of the current LaCrosse (SWB Epsilon II) and the '10 LaCrosse taking the place of the Lucerne (LWB Epsilon II).

Though I'd love to see Buick have a flagship Park Avenue RWD V8 model to compete with the Genesis and 300, but it's not likely given the current reality.

Why should GM even build the Regal if it competes internally? Malibu and AURA...two cars at the same price range, same platform. GM doesn't need to compete with itself.

[Robert Hall]

Also, as I have proposed in other previous threads, GM should structure their dealerships by division focus. Buick and Cadillac, both being luxury/near luxury marques, should be paired together. If Buick is to be remotely premium, why should those customers have to put up with the same type of service and volume-seller sales tactics at a Pontiac and GMC dealership use? It doesn't make sense. And then Cadillac dealers don't have a problem with a more premium Buick.

That could work..

Why should GM even build the Regal if it competes internally? Malibu and AURA...two cars at the same price range, same platform. GM doesn't need to compete with itself.

I think the problem is with the dealers...why else would Pontiac have the G3, G5 and Torrent? Pontiac dealers wanted them so they can compete with Chevy dealers. And Saturn has models that compete with Chevy and Pontiac/GMC...

[smk4565]

Also, as I have proposed in other previous threads, GM should structure their dealerships by division focus. Buick and Cadillac, both being luxury/near luxury marques, should be paired together.

Only works if GM's only brands are Chevy, Buick, and Cadillac and they have 2 sales channels. Otherwise they are just Lincoln-Mercury and a big step down from what BMW and Mercedes are. Cadillac's image right now is too frail to be associated with Buick, and Buick isn't near good enough to be associated with Cadillac.

(Buick-Cadillac also only works if the base model Buick is at least $28k and they don't need discounts)

Edited December 17, 2008 by smk4565

[Z-06]

That's the point. Move Buick upmarket so Cadillac can move upmarket. Right now Cadillac makes the wonderful CTS, but it's playing dual roles, trying to compete with the 5-series, by the specs, but with the 3-series on price because GM needs an entry lux car. Let Buick be entry lux...you know, like it used to be back in the Sloane days when the divisional structure functioned and they didn't compete with each other anywhere near the extent they do now.

What about the supposed alpha then? There should not be a Caddy on that platform?

[Robert Hall]

What about the supposed alpha then? There should not be a Caddy on that platform?

Cadillac needs it if they are going to have a 3-series and C-class size and price competitor. But I fear that given GM's current situation, it will get canned and they put a small FWD sedan at Cadillac instead The future for RWD looks bleak at GM, IMHO.

Edited December 17, 2008 by moltar

[Croc]

I think the problem is with the dealers...why else would Pontiac have the G3, G5 and Torrent? Pontiac dealers wanted them so they can compete with Chevy dealers. And Saturn has models that compete with Chevy and Pontiac/GMC...

...and if GM grouped the sales channels such that similar brands were under the same sales channels, dealerships could be tightly focused AND be ensured volume. Right now, GM has Chevrolet, Saturn, SAAB, Cadillac, and the "catchall" of B-P-GMC.

Let's try something that makes sense, plays to the divisions' strengths, and gets GM to stop competing with itself. I'm also going to keep every current division, even HUMMER.

Chevrolet & Saturn

Pontiac, SAAB & HUMMER

Buick, Cadillac & GMC

The logic:

Chevrolet and Saturn are both family-oriented brands. If Saturn retains uplevel Opel models, it no longer needs entry vehicles and can essentially be a premium version of Chevrolet, car-wise. Think VW compared to Honda or Toyota. Same type of buyer, different income bracket.

Pontiac SAAB and HUMMER would be the "enthusiast" grouping. Pontiac for raw performance, SAAB for refined euro performance, and HUMMER for offroad performance. Remember how HUMMER dealerships all got those offroad test courses? Add an inner ring and slalom for the Pontiac and SAAB prospectives to test the limits of those cars.

Buick, Cadillac & GMC are the premium brands, or are at least marketed as such. Rescued from the Misfit Group, GMC no longer has to be a clone of Chevy and could essentially be the Denali trim levels of appointment. Higher profit margins than current. Buick gets to grow and actually BE premium, instead of just marketed as such. Buick used to be the American Jaguar, and now it can be this again, emphasizing luxury and comfort, while Cadillac tackles luxury and performance. Buick, Jaguar, AUDI and Lexus, versus Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW and Infiniti.

Also, with these groupings, Chevrolet dealerships still get their volume, as well as some premium product so Chevrolet division isn't so bipolar since Chevrolet likes having one of everything. Pontiac SAAB and HUMMER get entries in nearly every product segment and price, so no pointless rebadges to placate dealerships needing/wanting more volume, and a unified focus on performance--all three brands are somewhat unified vs. the current B-P-GMC grouping.

Buick Cadillac and GMC are all premium, so no more internal politics and competition. Cadillac and GMC are in the same dealership, so the competition that resulted in BOTH a GMC Denali and an Escalade never would have happened. GMC can have uplevel product, while the ultra premium product can be sold as a Denali trim, or under the Escalade lineup. But GM can pick and choose what works and resonates with consumers instead of mindlessly duplicating across the sales channels. Cadillac and Buick dealerships are the same, so both divisions can get product without the dealerships engaging in infighting and corporate sabotage.

Win, win, win, win, win, win, win, f@#king win.

[smk4565]

Too many models, too many brands. They need to dump brands fast. Without downsizing, they will be in Chapter 7 liquidation before 2009 is over, even with a government loan. GM is currently losing $67 million per day. If that keeps up for a year, it will be $24.4 billion, even with the $18 billion dollar loan they are still bankrupt in September 09.

[Croc]

Too many models, too many brands. They need to dump brands fast. Without downsizing, they will be in Chapter 7 liquidation before 2009 is over, even with a government loan. GM is currently losing $67 million per day. If that keeps up for a year, it will be $24.4 billion, even with the $18 billion dollar loan they are still bankrupt in September 09.

Wow, I can see why you've gained a reputation for being a troll. This site isn't Fox News--by that I mean you don't "win" by talking over and repeating your claim in increasingly shrill pitches. On this site we debate ideas. So if you want to keep responding like clockwork to my posts, great, but if you don't start responding with anything of substance, it'll be a very quick trip to being ignored.

[Z-06]

Cadillac needs it if they are going to have a 3-series and C-class size and price competitor. But I fear that given GM's current situation, it will get canned and they put a small FWD sedan at Cadillac instead The future for RWD looks bleak at GM, IMHO.

I agree with you if Caddy wants revenue they need to have a sub CTS. I wanted to understand what Croc thinks about the platform in his plan. I wanted to understand whether he thought it would be a viable alternative to keep a sub-CTS vehicle in Caddy lineup if so the reasons behind it.

Edited December 18, 2008 by smallchevy

[smk4565]

Cadillac for sure needs a car smaller than the CTS, and should be given at least $1 billion to develop it (the 08 Malibu cost $500 million). It has to be rear wheel drive and 180-183 inches long. They may need another $3-400 million to get coupe or convertible variants, but it will be worth it. Base price should be $34,000-34,995. Overhaul the CTS and move it to $47,500 base price.

[Drew Dowdell]

and I want a pony.

[regfootball]

The way I see it... if I'm going to spend extra for a "premium" brand, that vehicle better have some obvious advantages and improvements over the standard mainstream equivalent.

For instance, I love Volvo. It's far more interesting and far rarer than, say, Honda. But I'm unconvinced that an S60 is any more of a car than a well-equipped Accord, so if it were my money, I would ignore the Sven Eriksson IKEA garnish and go for the cheap one. I think lots of buyers feel the same.

I haven't looked at the Insignia in person, but from what I've read and seen on the interweb, I wouldn't pay a penny more than what Honda, Toyota, or Mazda charge for their midsize sedans, ~$27K for a leather-lined four-cylinder automatic model.

Perhaps to differentiate the Regal as a "premium" product, Buick can forgo the low introductory base prices of the mainstreamers ($22K for wheel cover, cloth, and manual A/C) and only offer well-equipped models.

the current accord interior is not all that good. especially the cheaper ones in cloth. YUCK!

[regfootball]

There is a point around $40k where front drive cars stop selling. The DTS is declining, the S80 and 9-5 never had good sales, Acura RL despite being AWD, is front drive based andnever caught on. But the TL and ES do pretty well, the MKZ does okay; front drivers work in the $30s, but fade fast as price nears $40k. Buick sedans will be in that low $30s range (which is still an up market move from the mid to high $20s they are now) so they won't overlap Cadillac much.

I agree with your other post about Regal competing with the Aura and Malibu. GM competes best with GM.

there is a price point around which you cannot sell cars in volume. who the hell has 40k to pay for a car in the post HELOC paradigm? the question is still a buick, even if it were a rebadged S class, is not selling at 40 grand any time soon. think people, buick has to be around the acura level. we are not talking Audi A5 interior here. Even with buick going niche, they still need volume to sell it. not 500 cars a month like the BMW 5 series.

Edited December 18, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Cadillac for sure needs a car smaller than the CTS, and should be given at least $1 billion to develop it (the 08 Malibu cost $500 million). It has to be rear wheel drive and 180-183 inches long. They may need another $3-400 million to get coupe or convertible variants, but it will be worth it. Base price should be $34,000-34,995. Overhaul the CTS and move it to $47,500 base price.

CTS pricing is fine as is. we don't need to push up the prices for price sake alone. perhaps you buy a CTS because it is awesome AND A good value.