Congress gives in (sorta)

[deftonesfan867]

Link

[Intrepidation]

LOL

--

Anyway, while it's not as much as they would have liked (and should get), at least it's something. I just hate how they are cheaping out on them, while they can and will happily throw more money at the banks. However it seems they will take up the issue again when Obama gets into office, so perhaps they will get more then.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Dodgefan

[ellives]

Probably the best we could hope for at this late hour in the process. The congress needs to come around to the idea of the following:

• Taking ownership of the big 3's legacy pension and healthcare liabilities so the playing field is evened up.
• Killing the UAW (I wouldn't give them a penny unless this happened.)

Without these two, they'll continue to suffer the "death of a thousand cuts" and might as well just file now.

[CARBIZ]

The photo is priceless. Are those speech bubbles for real, or did someone photo shop those in? Anyway, good news, I suppose. All I've ever thought GM and Chrysler need at this time is some breathing room to show confidence for the consumer. All else will fall into place.

[network engineer]

I am NOT willing to pay for the pension or healthcare liabilities of any of GMs employees or retirees.

If GM was going to file C11 couldn't they just cancel Saturn, Hummer and Saab and any other unprofitable product today? Then file C11 Tomorrow to avoid the lawsuits from all the dealers? They would immediately be profitable and our Tax dollars would provide a bridge loan that would probably pay us back a nice interest.

And I think alot of people forget that this is OUR money being spent. During the hearings an economist estimated that we would need to provide additional money in the range of $100 Billion for these plans to work. There are about 89 Million Americans that pay taxes*, so that works out to $1124 dollars per tax payer if Congress doesn't cut spending somewhere, which I doubt since federal spending has increased every year since 1990*.

Wouldn't it be even better to put a protection tariff on any vehicle imported from a country that has a trade deficit in their favor?

*Tax Info

*Federal Spending

[Camino LS6]

You will be paying for it either way.

Less now, or more later.

That's the choice before Congress.

[network engineer]

You will be paying for it either way.

Less now, or more later.

That's the choice before Congress.

That may not be quite right. If GM isn't suddenly profitable and the market doesn't recover it's going to be less now AND more later as we continue to prop them up.

[Daryl Z71]

I am NOT willing to pay for the pension or healthcare liabilities of any of GMs employees or retirees.

If GM was going to file C11 couldn't they just cancel Saturn, Hummer and Saab and any other unprofitable product today? Then file C11 Tomorrow to avoid the lawsuits from all the dealers? They would immediately be profitable and our Tax dollars would provide a bridge loan that would probably pay us back a nice interest.

And I think alot of people forget that this is OUR money being spent. During the hearings an economist estimated that we would need to provide additional money in the range of $100 Billion for these plans to work. There are about 89 Million Americans that pay taxes*, so that works out to $1124 dollars per tax payer if Congress doesn't cut spending somewhere, which I doubt since federal spending has increased every year since 1990*.

Wouldn't it be even better to put a protection tariff on any vehicle imported from a country that has a trade deficit in their favor?

*Tax Info

*Federal Spending

I don't think its a waste of tax dollars. As far as that subject goes there has been alot worse things our tax dollars could and have gone to.

[Camino LS6]

That may not be quite right. If GM isn't suddenly profitable and the market doesn't recover it's going to be less now AND more later as we continue to prop them up.

"Continuing to prop them up" will cost infinitely less than the expense of cleaning up the remains of the nation should we allow the industry to fail.

There is simply no viable alternative to making these loans, it is like the difference between paying for an oil change and waiting until you have to buy a new engine.

"You can pay me now, or you can pay me later"

[network engineer]

"Continuing to prop them up" will cost infinitely less than the expense of cleaning up the remains of the nation should we allow the industry to fail.

There is simply no viable alternative to making these loans, it is like the difference between paying for an oil change and waiting until you have to buy a new engine.

"You can pay me now, or you can pay me later"

I made it pretty clear in my post that I'm all for a bailout, but I don't think they can get the things they need without making rapid changes then filing C11. Plenty of people bought airline tickets months in advance from bankrupt airlines, I believe people will buy cars from a bankrupt GM. Besides most people don't know which brands are GM anyway.

[hyperv6]

Congress just wants to look like they don't want to give the money but still give it to them.

They don't want to lose the votes by caving in for the whole total. Plus they don't want to get the blaime for all that could and may happen id they lose one or more of the Big three.

Besides they will wait till all the newly elected people are in so the can claim any and all credit.

This whole DC deal was just a game and show.

[thedriver]

I am more than happy to have my tax dollars LOANED to the automakers, rather than GIVEN to the corrupt banks or WASTED on pointless wars...

[ZL-1]

So these are bridge loans until March (i.e. until the next US Administration is in place), nothing more...

The real issues are more of a long-term nature, as they always have been re the Detroit 3: how will they restrucutre themselves into generating positive cash flow? And who will finance that restructuring: the capital markets that are barely working at this time, or the taxpayer? How can the taxpayer be sure any long-term financing needed for a proper restructuring will be spent in aggressively restructuring the companies instead of PR gimmicks?

[hyperv6]

We can only hope the greed of investors buying up cheap stock will help rebound markets. There are some great bargins out there right now.

If the markets become stable spending will start to increase. But even if things start to turn now it would it would still be a year before we will have any real recovery. This is like an accordian and will take time for it to regain forward momentum.

Also if they can get spending the goverment to spend on space programs or even a Apollo like program for electric and alturnitive fuels and vehicles and building Nuke plants. The spending will spur development into new product just as the moon program did and better many lives as it increases spending by many who will be employed in these fields. This kind of programs touch all 50 states and millions of people. Even people right here in Akron Ohio benifited by the moon landings and made a lot of money and developed many nw things because of it.

But the wild card is as always the Russians [Putin], Iran China, and the many wild cards in the Middle East.

There is a lot going on and could make a bad time even worse.

The key for the MFGs is to work on product and cut cost. The goverment has to now worry about every UAW worker not losing his job. This about companys not workers. IF the goverment wants to help they need to find new places for the displaced workers from the auto industry as there will be plenty. It is clear many will not be needed were they are.

Edited December 7, 2008 by hyperv6

[CARBIZ]

I made it pretty clear in my post that I'm all for a bailout, but I don't think they can get the things they need without making rapid changes then filing C11. Plenty of people bought airline tickets months in advance from bankrupt airlines, car I believe people will buy s from a bankrupt GM. Besides most people don't know which brands are GM anyway.

I beg to differ. It is getting ugly. I just had a customer who drove the Malibu a month ago, then went to drive the Camry and Accord. He called me up 2 weeks ago and said he was ready to buy the Malibu because he like it better and because he likes his current 12 year old Pontiac. When he never showed for his appointment, I called him up and finally got him after a week of his dodging me. Verdict: he is worried about getting parts if GM goes under and he plans to buy the Camry. Let me get this straight, I said, you are going to buy an inferior, more expensive product because you are worried about parts? Like the 3 or 4 million 2.4 litre engines already on the road, plus transmissions and all the other Malibus (baisically the same car since '04) on the road won't have some parts manufacturer step in and supply parts?

Customers are running scared and make no mistake: THE IMPORT DEALERS ARE MAKING HAY WITH THIS. You don't think that every customer out there who steps on a Toyota or Honda lot is not going to have that salesman plant fears in that customer's ear? Wait until December's numbers come out. Your Senate hearings never sank home until the end of November.

Those of us in the business understand that GM would honor its warranties and protect its customers even before its creditors, workers, brands or dealers, but does the average layperson understand that?

[A Horse With No Name]

I am more than happy to have my tax dollars LOANED to the automakers, rather than GIVEN to the corrupt banks or WASTED on pointless wars...

+1

Chris

[FAPTurbo]

LOL

[hyperv6]

I beg to differ. It is getting ugly. I just had a customer who drove the Malibu a month ago, then went to drive the Camry and Accord. He called me up 2 weeks ago and said he was ready to buy the Malibu because he like it better and because he likes his current 12 year old Pontiac. When he never showed for his appointment, I called him up and finally got him after a week of his dodging me. Verdict: he is worried about getting parts if GM goes under and he plans to buy the Camry. Let me get this straight, I said, you are going to buy an inferior, more expensive product because you are worried about parts? Like the 3 or 4 million 2.4 litre engines already on the road, plus transmissions and all the other Malibus (baisically the same car since '04) on the road won't have some parts manufacturer step in and supply parts?

Customers are running scared and make no mistake: THE IMPORT DEALERS ARE MAKING HAY WITH THIS. You don't think that every customer out there who steps on a Toyota or Honda lot is not going to have that salesman plant fears in that customer's ear? Wait until December's numbers come out. Your Senate hearings never sank home until the end of November.

Those of us in the business understand that GM would honor its warranties and protect its customers even before its creditors, workers, brands or dealers, but does the average layperson understand that?

I have seen it asked on many a GM web site as to what warranty will they have and if dealers are still bewing fair and taking care of present warranties.

It is sad when people with GM products are questioning what their own status is on their present car. If they were to go buy today with that unanswered would they go to a GM dealer to buy?

IF they filled Chap 11 just imagine the fall out.

Look how the press is already telling you to take care with gift cards and if you get one to use it ASAP.