Start the Concept Speculation!

[CaddyXLR-V]

Niche or not, Camaro needs a V6 model. The Z06 wouldnt be around without the base Corvette, and the CTS-V wouldnt be around without the CTS. And I think the GTO would sell better if it had a V6, and optional 5.3L for less money. I hear people talking about the GTO all the time, but dont want to go spend more than $30,000 on a car just because it has 400hp. They would buy one in the $20,000s, with a 240hp V6 though. Edited November 8, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[Northstar]

As for my referencing AH-HA...let me put it this way...in the ever changing auto world, what info is usually more accurate?  That from last February, or that from 2 weeks ago, when both are from reliable sources and everything else is equal?  Do you see why I put more credence into AH-HA's post than evok's?  Things change quickly in this industry.

As for anyone who is arguing that the Camaro is NOT a niche vehicle...you need your heads checked.  Last time I looked, 2-doors were niche vehicles.  Convertibles were niche vehicles.  2+2s were niche vehicles.  Now put all of these niches together and suddenly we have a mainstream vehicle?  Sorry, a Camaro is NOT a mainstream vehicle like the Impala, Malibu, TrailBlazer, or Tahoe.

[post="40002"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Not to knock AH-HA, but he did say we wouldn't be seeing any concepts, and we're going to be seeing at least one in the Camaro.

No one expects the Camaro to sell in big numbers, and correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read all the posts due to lack of time, but I don't think anyone said that the Camaro is meant to be a mainstream vehicle. The Impala and others you listed all do 200k+ annually. The Camaro would be 80-100k from what I understand, which puts it in the range of 7-8k a month, meaning similar numbers to that of the Monte Carlo a couple years ago when it still sold decently. The Mustang, on the other hand, is at 190k annually, probably double what a Camaro will sell.

[evok]

Because I was enjoying it until certain people had to get childish about it.  Kinda ruins it when you're pretty much called a moron despite having a good logical base behind your arguments.  Whether it is the logical base GM chooses to follow or not, that remains to be seen.  But to attack it as stupid simply because it isn't what one individual person thinks is kinda lame, and disheartening.

[post="39972"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Grow some skin. Your arguement is still absurd. Not moronic or stupid. And honestly, you should read my posts because I do not mislead. If you have not figured it out, I actually have to know what is going on in this business. And have the ability to find out what I need to. This is not acually a hobby for me.

Now let me educate you again. The Monte goes. That is 50k sales. Where is that going to be made up? Your limited adition V8 Camaro? I know not. And the Camaro potential is not niche. If you want me to go on, let me know? The GTO is niche.

[Croc]

So the Monte is officially gone? That's fine. That changes things, and makes more of a case for the V6 Camaro.

BTW Evok...AH-HA was the only one who weighed in back in October when I asked BOTH of you regarding the V6 issue...you simply said:

I do not know about the show car - but we are still years away from rwd. To soon to talk publiclly about their plans.

I asked.

Finally, don't tell me to grow some thick skin. My skin is pretty damn thick as is. My comment about it not being fun anymore wasn't even directed at you.

[AAS]

Now let me educate you again.  The Monte goes.  That is 50k sales.  Where is that going to be made up?  Your limited adition V8 Camaro? I know not.  And the Camaro potential is not niche.  If you want me to go on, let me know?  The GTO is niche.

[post="40121"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

slightly off topic, but... With the Monte gone, would that mean that the Impala will show up in NASCAR, or is there still a possibiilty of a Chevelle (possibly Chevy's version of the GTO) would take care of that?

[turbo200]

The Monte needs to be gone yesterday, it is a blight on GM's image. I'm glad it will be gone soon, and the Camaro will sell much much mroe than 40k/year, which dutifully and bewilderingly the MC is doing now. No offense to any MC owners, it just sorely needed to not be released in this bodystyle back in 2000, now it's just a rental vehicle. Thanks evok for the information, and I'm glad you mentioned potential Camaro volume, I am just glad you have enthusiasm for it. With the MC gone that almost means Camaro is like a spiritual successor to it, which points to the Impala being the sedan counterpart to it, on RWD platform. We already know the next Malibu will grow in width and length to be similar in interior space to the W-bodys.

[AAS]

With the MC gone that almost means Camaro is like a spiritual successor to it, which points to the Impala being the sedan counterpart to it, on RWD platform. We already know the next Malibu will grow in width and length to be similar in interior space to the W-bodys.

[post="40304"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Let's hope they only share a spiritual connection... I know GM isn't dumb enough to do to the Camaro what they did with the current Impala/MC "twins" and the past Lumina/MC "twins"

[turbo200]

All i am doing is speculating. One thing I know for sure is GM will not botch the Camaro. Take a quote from Fbodfather, "car manufacturers can't make mistakes with cars anymore," [not verbatim]. There are so many people fighting for this car to be the greatest Camaro ever that it will be faithful to the original interpretation of the Camaro--basically a Chevy version of the Mustang. Whatever sedan is built off this platform, or sedans, I'm sure will be different and probably flexible in terms of length and width.

[Bimmer325]

knightfan's gonna be upset.

[AAS]

All i am doing is speculating. One thing I know for sure is GM will not botch the Camaro. Take a quote from Fbodfather, "car manufacturers can't make mistakes with cars anymore," [not verbatim]. There are so many people fighting for this car to be the greatest Camaro ever that it will be faithful to the original interpretation of the Camaro--basically a Chevy version of the Mustang. Whatever sedan is built off this platform, or sedans, I'm sure will be different and probably flexible in terms of length and width.

[post="40372"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know that's what you meant... I was just doing some speculation of my own, but of the "worst-case-scenerio."

No way in hell could they (let themselves) screw up a new Camaro!

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

If GM decided to make the camaro unaffordable they would totally lose my sale (which, hopefully, is roughly when it would be coming out... or the year after...) Why not put a DoD 3.9L V6 in there w/ a 5spd manual and 6spd auto? i dont really care all that much about power... 0-60 in 7.5sec or less would already put it at "sporty" level. Hell, 0-60 in 8 sec while getting 24/34 mileage would be a hell of a lot better... and one hell of a sales line.. The 240hp V6 Camaro gets better gas mileage than the I4 Scion tC! and who cares if 8sec is a bit slow by todays standards? its still plenty fast and with a right exhaust note.. who cares? if they really wanted power they coulda gotten a V8.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

I could go for a Northstar V6 in a Camaro. They have plenty of power and it would make a viable option for those who don't want the V8.

[post="41157"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Now what exactly is a Northstar V6? :huh:

[bobo]

Sounds like the defunct 3.5 liter V-6 from the Intrigue and Aurora 3.5. That engine won't be coming back, though. The high feature 3.6 liter engine would work, though.

[Croc]

I think he's referring to the discontinued Shortstar V6

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

a high strung 2.8L might make for an entertaining base camaro... im thinking along the lines of 200 torque and a redline of 8500 rpm :)

[Stubbles]

Why not use the 3800 3.8L V6 Supercharged Series III engine in the base camaro? It's got 260 HP, (A bit low, in my opinion.) Or use the 4.6 Northstar producing 320 as the base? The problem i see w/ the 3.8=too weak The problem w/ the 4.6=to up market for a base camaro. I know that you want it to be a market leader, but the LS1 camaro SS's had 320 HP! So by using the 4.6, you then make the base JUST as powerful as the TOP-of-the-line camaro 3-4 yrs ago! I just think/wish that Chevy could produce a S/C V6 producing 290-305 HP. (Can somebody say GNX?) If a S/C worked for that car, why not the base camaro? I also think it would be rather interesting to see a S/C base Camaro!

[Stubbles]

Why not use the 3.8 S/C V6?(260hp) Or the 4.6 Northstar? (320 HP) I only have one problem w/ each: 3.8=too weak (the last gen base camaro's had 260, if i recall corectly, so thats not much of an improvement!) And w/ the 4.6, too up-scale/expensive for the base camaro. (The top-of-the-line LS1 Camaro SS's had 320 HP! TOO much of an improvement!) I think they should come out w/ a new 4.0/4.2 S/C V6 producing 290-305 HP for the base camaro. It would sort of have that BuickGNX feel to it! Also, i think it would be intersting to have a S/C base Camaro!

[AAS]

slightly off topic, but... With the Monte gone, would that mean that the Impala will show up in NASCAR, or is there still a possibiilty of a Chevelle (possibly Chevy's version of the GTO) would take care of that?

[post="40299"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

hmph... this comment is so much more relevant after reading through the Camaro/Chevelle thread.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Why not use the 3.8 S/C V6?(260hp) Or the 4.6 Northstar? (320 HP)

I only have one problem w/ each: 3.8=too weak (the last gen base camaro's had 260, if i recall corectly,  so thats not much of an improvement!) And w/ the 4.6, too up-scale/expensive for the base camaro. (The top-of-the-line LS1 Camaro SS's had 320 HP! TOO much of an improvement!)

I think they should come out w/ a new 4.0/4.2 S/C V6 producing 290-305 HP for the base camaro. It would sort of have that BuickGNX feel to it! Also, i think it would be intersting to have a S/C base Camaro!

[post="52178"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:huh: the base engine was like a 200 hp 3.8L V6.... and a supercharged base engine??? what.... no.... thats hell for insurance....

3.8L is a boat anchor anyways, throw in a 3v DoD 3.5L as a base engine, tune it economically, 220hp is fine, make it get like 24/34 (maybe throw on Direct Injection and leave hp at like 225hp and make it get some serious gas mileage! im taking like 27/37.... that would be so awesome.... plus you would still have the growl of a OHV V6 in there, how about a lean-burner? yes... 215hp... whatever... 31/42 gas mileage...). For the performance junkies i think a 340hp 5.3L V8 should suffice, while the Z/28 could have a 395hp 6.0L V8 (cant top the vette :P ... well at least the numbers on the paper cant :) )

i think that a fuel efficient base camaro would be a HUGE marketing tool! equivalent power to the mustang with so much better gas mileage... i would so totally buy one... environmentalists would LOVE GM and it would help GMs CAFE ratings... plus it would be very unique to have a lean-burn, DI, 3v, DoD Pushrod engine.

maybe put 3v and direct injection on a LS7 and make it have like... 750hp as a special edition camaro :)

[hyperv6]

The 3800 is on it's way out and I expect will be retires soon. Not sure what V6 the Camaro will get but the V6 car is more important than ony other edition GM will sell. The V6 will be your volume car and needs to be sold in greater numbers than the V8. This is how and why there still is a Mustang. The 4th Gen F body just never had a V6 that complimented the car well. Also the egronomic's were very poor for women. They did not like the seating, no trunk, it sat low, and moany short women could not see out the front or back. On the other hand Men loved the car as it was a 4 seat Vette to many. Ford has always enjoyed a large share of Female Mustang buyers and most were V6 car. When women buy 50% of the cars sold today GM would be foolish to not make sure the Camaro appealed to them to. Let's face it It is had to find a guy who would not buy a V8 Camaro. GM need to apeal to them but also the folks who would not have bought before. Edited December 4, 2005 by hyperv6

[91z28]

The 3800 is on it's way out and I expect will be retires soon.

Not sure what V6 the Camaro will get but the V6 car is more important than ony other edition GM will sell.

The V6 will be your volume car and needs to be sold in greater numbers than the V8. This is how and why there still is a Mustang.

The 4th Gen F body just never had a V6 that complimented the car well. Also the egronomic's were very poor for women. They did not like the seating, no trunk, it sat low, and moany short women could not see out the front or back. On the other hand Men loved the car as it was a 4 seat Vette to many.

Ford has always enjoyed a large share of Female Mustang buyers and most were V6 car. When women buy 50% of the cars sold today GM would be foolish to not make sure the Camaro appealed to them to.

Let's face it It is had to find a guy who would not buy a V8 Camaro. GM need to apeal to them but also the folks who would not have bought before.

[post="52677"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am hoping you meant "many" not moany ! :lol:

[hyperv6]

Hey I never claimed to be great on a keyboard. But which ever works best for you run with it. On the other hand if it sold more cars! HHMMM....... Magic Fingers driver seat HHHmmm................ Edited December 5, 2005 by hyperv6

[Nodnarb]

Yeah. They're out there on other forums, but are being removed. Sorry for the false alarm. Edited December 7, 2005 by Nodnarb

[NOS2006]

I'd remove those asap.

[91z4me]

I speculate the new Camaro will look something like the clay model that is floating around the internet. :P

[post="54157"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I will speculate that that model is actually 2 different models fused in the center. Also I bet that was prior to the 2003 SS concept.

It has WAY more 99 GTO than 03 SS and since the SS came later I would guess it will have a greater impact than the GTO.

[99camaroSS]

91z, you really think that that clay was made before 2003?

[91z4me]

91z, you really think that that clay was made before 2003?

[post="55131"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Honestly YES. After re-reading a description of a car that was shown in a design clinic and seeing a photoshop by the person who went to the design clinic I FULLY expect the grill to be MUCH less like a 1st gen and much more like the Malibu Cross Country grill AND the Cobalt SS Widebody. Also I feel that fender sweeps will definately be part of the equation, heck the Malibu, Impala, Colorado, and Monte Carlo to a degree all have them. Why would the model that introduced them not have them?

[turbo200]

I hope it doesn't have fender sweeps, or a face similar to the Cross Country. that was good for the maxx, not for the camaro

[91z4me]

I hope it doesn't have fender sweeps, or a face similar to the Cross Country. that was good for the maxx, not for the camaro

[post="55267"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So you don't like this?

Sorry, GM/Scott S. has asked that every website remove the pics. - Northstar. Edited December 10, 2005 by Northstar

[Northstar]

The fender sweeps are terrible, but the face sucks, sorry.

[91z4me]

The fender sweeps are terrible, but the face sucks, sorry.

[post="55272"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The chop itself sucks but the idea is true. Listen to me now and it will be easier to accept in January.

PS I will work on it more when I get the time.

[z28luvr01]

Part of the problem is that the LS1Tech logo obscures your modifications. Why not try using NOS's cleaned-up version from the other thread as a beter baseline, or the one on the Camaroz28.com homepage, which has no logoin the center. The face actually has promise, it's just that it needs better integration into the body. Also, the sweeps should probably level off and run parallel to the beltline. Sweeps that curve downward are more of a Monte Carlo thing. In any case, now I know I want a red one B)

[91z4me]

Part of the problem is that the LS1Tech logo obscures your modifications. Why not try using NOS's cleaned-up version from the other thread as a beter baseline, or the one on the Camaroz28.com homepage, which has no logoin the center. The face actually has promise, it's just that it needs better integration into the body. Also, the sweeps should probably level off and run parallel to the beltline. Sweeps that curve downward are more of a Monte Carlo thing.

In any case, now I know I want a red one  B)

[post="55301"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I will use the one on CZ28 soon. To busy for a while.

[Sixty8panther]

91z4me: I agree with you 100% about "the fender sweeps" as we have begun calling them. They are a very prominent feature in the Camaros Heretige. SAy waht you will about the 1st gen. but the 1969 was by far the most important, significant and interesting MY for Camaro EVER! A 1969 Camaro is the QUINTISENTIAL Camaro. I have ot diasgree about the 1972 Impala style grille. It works great on the SEMA Cobalt concept, good on the Impala/MC and decent on the Malibu but would look horrible on a Camaro. If perhaps we were going for a retro-1970.5 then it might be a little less offensive but the 2nd gen is not enough of a classic yet to be retro-fied IMHO.

[91z4me]

91z4me:

I agree with you 100% about "the fender sweeps" as we have begun calling them. They are a very prominent feature in the Camaros Heretige. SAy waht you will about the 1st gen. but the 1969 was by far the most important, significant and interesting MY for Camaro EVER!

A 1969 Camaro is the QUINTISENTIAL Camaro.
I have ot diasgree about the 1972 Impala style grille. It works great on the SEMA Cobalt concept, good on the Impala/MC and decent on the Malibu but would look horrible on a Camaro.

If perhaps we were going for a retro-1970.5 then it might be a little less offensive but the 2nd gen is not enough of a classic yet to be retro-fied IMHO.

[post="55440"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sly give me a chance to change your mind on the grill. I am cooking something up. :P

[NOS2006]

LMAO! That red car is hideous!

[91z4me]

LMAO! That red car is hideous!

[post="55567"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Perhaps this is more to your liking?

Sorry, GM/Scott S. has asked that every website remove the pics. - Northstar. Edited December 10, 2005 by Northstar

[AAS]

Perhaps this is more to your liking?
[img]Sorry, GM/Scott S. has asked that every website remove the pics. - Northstar.

[post="55596"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Much better... now I'de believe you if you said the concept would share a resemblence to the SS.

Just one thing, the bowtie looks out of place. I think it would work better on the grill, or somehow integrated into the lower intake (like on the 93-97's) Edited December 10, 2005 by Northstar