Speculation: Buick as a core brand...

[Camino LS6]

My apologies also for any thread hijacking. Shall we start a new thread on Pontiac instead of posting it all in here?

While this may be a pretty cool, there is no way that can happen, it is just not financially feasible. Sure, products may come and go, but it makes no difference what the other brands have. If there's an Alpha platform, how does it make sense for Pontiac to get a sedan on it and then drop it for a vert? They would lose so many potential customers by dropping the sedan, and it makes no sense financially. They can't just make a model for a couple years then drop it.

OK we can move this discussion to Pontiac...

Right after this post.

Don't forget, I said no hard and fast rules - if it doesn't make sense you don't do it. But, I also think that purposely juxtaposing Pontiac's product cadence to the rest of the brands would open more opportunities for the niche brand.

Let me try another example without actual platform names.

Let's say that Pontiac has a coupe, vert, and a sedan: all on different platforms

The coupe is on platform"A" and it serves the purpose, but it isn't perfect for Pontiac.

Now a new platform debuts with a coupe variant that is perfect for Pontiac, so they dump the "A" coupe and replace it with the one from the new platform. Meanwhile the "A" coupe soldiers on at other brands unbtil its at the end of its cycle.

This way, Pontiac isn't a slave to the needs of volume production runs elsewhere.

You'd have to make the choices wisely so that the weak link is always the one that gets dropped, but it would make Pontiac GM's most dynamic brand.

As such, I think that fact could become a major selling point.

In a way, it is like what Holden does with its exports around the world - except in reverse.

Pontiac could be the predator lying in wait for that new architecture to arrive.

Could save Gobs of development money for GM if done right.

And, it could add a little nudge of volume to open up options for all of the brands.

[Argen]

When this all changes it will have to be a relatively gradual thing. Maserati learned this the hard way when they went from the swoopy Khamsin to the boxy Biturbo in a couple of years.

I just can't see it working, even in 10 years. Pontiac the brand doesn't have the cachet or image to command the big bucks. I can't think of a car brand that has always been a mainstream brand that has successfully gone premium.

Yeah, you can't go from G3 to 911 in even ten years. But Volkswagen and Euro Ford have been moving up over the years, and back in the seventies Audi was to VW as Buick is to Chevy now. We're talking about establishing a long-term plan, a concept that GM does quite understand yet. I don't really advocate sending Pontiac that far up market, but I do imagine them as a cheaper Porsche.

I want Buick and Pontiac to complement each other, seeing as they are under the same roof now. That said, they need space so that they don't blur together when our backs are turned.

I imagine Buick taking on a Bentley-esque image, sans the price tag. I don't mind Buicks being powerful, but they will not become sports sedans or sports cars. I mean, the Speed versions of the Continental GT and Flying Spur are seriously fast, but no one would ever consider them to be sporty. The GT is best described as the "banker's hot rod", a nickname that was once used in relation to the old Wildcat. I pretty much see them doing what the're doing now, just more and better.

Pontiac, is more difficult to figure out. You could try a small-car model, something like Mazda or Abarth. You could try an old-school musclecar brand like what Dodge is trying. You could try a supercar brand, but I can only see that going down in flames, fast.

I want to try and do something that combines aspects of all of those. I want to use the Solstice as inspiration for a couple of other models, and then pretty much call it a day.

Buick:

---------------

Skylark - Sedan, obviously. Would like to see a 3-door coupe. Think Volvo C30 or VW Scirocco.

Invicta - Self-explanatory, LaCrosse is a rubbish name.

Roadmaster - Toss the Lucerne, give us a luxed-out Park Avenue.

Riviera - Coupe. Probably Zeta-based and acts as image-vehicle.

Enclave - Consider giving it a slight face-lift.

Pontiac:

---------------

Solstice - If it goes to Alpha, try and keep the looks somewhat intact. Has a Boxster quality, doesn't need major facelift.

Firebird - A mix of musclecar and RX8. Keep it light, possibly on lengthened Alpha. Zeta is a bit heavy for my purpose.

GTO - Most likely Zeta. Most powerful engine of the lineup with a Grand Tourer personality. Sleek and curvy.

Like the Solstice, I see the GTO and Firebird getting both coupe and covertible. None of that hardtop vert garbage. The Sol and F-bird could both spawn four-door versions, like the AM Rapide but a four-door GTO would have to be planned extremely carefully so not to trample the Roadmaster.

[Northstar]

Pontiac:

---------------

Solstice - If it goes to Alpha, try and keep the looks somewhat intact. Has a Boxster quality, doesn't need major facelift.

Firebird - A mix of musclecar and RX8. Keep it light, possibly on lengthened Alpha. Zeta is a bit heavy for my purpose.

GTO - Most likely Zeta. Most powerful engine of the lineup with a Grand Tourer personality. Sleek and curvy.

Like the Solstice, I see the GTO and Firebird getting both coupe and covertible. None of that hardtop vert garbage. The Sol and F-bird could both spawn four-door versions, like the AM Rapide but a four-door GTO would have to be planned extremely carefully so not to trample the Roadmaster.

This is an interesting idea; having Pontiac be exclusively sports cars/GTs. Not sure if you could do it because of the Camaro and Corvette, but you could probably do Solstice, a sedan, and something more expensive like the GTO. I guess if Pontiac is a niche brand that probably means they aren't selling many cars... and that would certainly be the case with a 3-Series car, a GT, and a roadster.

[Croc]

Buick will probably start near-luxury and top out at mid-luxury. A compact Delta II-based sedan similar to the 1st gen TSX (with Sedan/coupe/wagon versions) would be a perfectly fine entry level family of cars for Buick. That's what I'm suggesting the Delta II cars to be.

That's not setting Buick's sights high enough, I'm afraid. This does nothing but increase GM's glut at the middle pricepoints of the market. Cadillac's survival and prestige is dependent on one of GM's brands moving up a price bracket to give it breathing room, and IMO it might as well be Buick. If Buick can move into the 30k-60k price range, Cadillac can finally move to the 45k+ bracket where it belongs.

"But M-B and BMW have sub-40k cars!" you say? Well, have BMW and M-B been strengthening or diluting their brand's image and prestige over the past decade? I think you know the answer to that question.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Croc

[smk4565]

That's not setting Buick's sights high enough, I'm afraid. This does nothing but increase GM's glut at the middle pricepoints of the market. Cadillac's survival and prestige is dependent on one of GM's brands moving up a price bracket to give it breathing room, and IMO it might as well be Buick. If Buick can move into the 30k-60k price range, Cadillac can finally move to the 45k+ bracket where it belongs.

"But M-B and BMW have sub-40k cars!" you say? Well, have BMW and M-B been strengthening or diluting their brand's image and prestige over the past decade? I think you know the answer to that question.

The 3-series is smaller than a Cobalt, and worldwide the 3-series has been a sales success for 20+ years.

There won't be a glut in the middle when Saturn, Pontiac and Saab are gone, and a new Impala goes to a price in the high $20s rather than total overlap with the Malibu. The Delta Buick should be $25-30k like the LaCrosse is now, the Buick Epsilon about $29-35k so a base Buick is nicer than the Malibu LTZ. A lot of the 55+ crowd that Buick is trying to get doesn't need a big car, the kids are grown and gone, and they want something with a premium feel. Younger people in urban areas also prefer smaller cars, GM is missing this segment.

Buick will never make it at $50k, let alone $60k, they have to live in the $25,000-40,000 range. Cadillac can't even make it in the $50-60k range right now. Cadillac can't get $60k for a midsize V6 sedan like M-B can.

Mercedes spends over $1 billion to develop a new S-class, to make a great car it takes a lot of investment, so GM has to choose wisely what they pursue.

[Robert Hall]

That's not setting Buick's sights high enough, I'm afraid. This does nothing but increase GM's glut at the middle pricepoints of the market. Cadillac's survival and prestige is dependent on one of GM's brands moving up a price bracket to give it breathing room, and IMO it might as well be Buick. If Buick can move into the 30k-60k price range, Cadillac can finally move to the 45k+ bracket where it belongs.

"But M-B and BMW have sub-40k cars!" you say? Well, have BMW and M-B been strengthening or diluting their brand's image and prestige over the past decade? I think you know the answer to that question.

I wouldn't say they are diluting..the sub-40k entry level models are how they acquire their first customers, who then often move up to the more pricey models over time as their budget allows...

[Croc]

I wouldn't say they are diluting..the sub-40k entry level models are how they acquire their first customers, who then often move up to the more pricey models over time as their budget allows...

Uhhh...disagree. Most of the drivers of those vehicles are actually leased, and they get them just to be driving the badge around.

[Robert Hall]

Uhhh...disagree. Most of the drivers of those vehicles are actually leased, and they get them just to be driving the badge around.

Some lease, some buy. I know people that bought 3 series and later bought 5s. And the 3 is an excellent car any way you look at it.

[VenSeattle]

That's not setting Buick's sights high enough, I'm afraid. This does nothing but increase GM's glut at the middle pricepoints of the market. Cadillac's survival and prestige is dependent on one of GM's brands moving up a price bracket to give it breathing room, and IMO it might as well be Buick. If Buick can move into the 30k-60k price range, Cadillac can finally move to the 45k+ bracket where it belongs.

"But M-B and BMW have sub-40k cars!" you say? Well, have BMW and M-B been strengthening or diluting their brand's image and prestige over the past decade? I think you know the answer to that question.

Well, Buick should receive the premium Delta-II because we all know Cadillac will not be receiving one. (As it should be...)

So, what ever pricepoint a premium/luxury Delta-II can command, that should be Buick's starting point. The Delata-II Buick needs to lean towards the formula of the TSX though (either 1st or 2nd gen) since Buick is trying to attract new/younger buyers. The content of the TSX is spot on for an entry-level premium 4-cyl sedan.

I still think there's room for two Epsilon IIs for Buick... there's a world of difference between the TL and the ES350. Buick could offer both flavors.

The SWB Epsilon II (Insignia/Regal) could target the TL but with 4-cyl & V6 offerings.

The LWB Espilon II could target the ES350 (which can go up to $50k loaded) but at a lower pricepoint.

The RWD sedan... regardless of platform, would be the low volume flagship sedan and give Buick a justifiable luxury-priced car to confirm Buick's intentions/aspirations.

[Robert Hall]

Well, Buick should receive the premium Delta-II because we all know Cadillac will not be receiving one. (As it should be...)

So, what ever pricepoint a premium/luxury Delta-II can command, that should be Buick's starting point. The Delata-II Buick needs to lean towards the formula of the TSX though (either 1st or 2nd gen) since Buick is trying to attract new/younger buyers. The content of the TSX is spot on for an entry-level premium 4-cyl sedan.

I still think there's room for two Epsilon IIs for Buick... there's a world of difference between the TL and the ES350. Buick could offer both flavors.

The SWB Epsilon II (Insignia/Regal) could target the TL but with 4-cyl & V6 offerings.

The LWB Espilon II could target the ES350 (which can go up to $50k loaded) but at a lower pricepoint.

The RWD sedan... regardless of platform, would be the low volume flagship sedan and give Buick a justifiable luxury-priced car to confirm Buick's intentions/aspirations.

A RWD sedan that competes w/ the Genesis could do well for Buick. With FWD sedans, they can target the MKZ and MKS...

[Croc]

If GM dumps SAAB, then all SAABs should get ported to Buick, trading the sporty interior for more woodgrain. That's the level of interior refinement Buick should have. SAAB also commands a similar pricepoint as I would like to see Buick compete in.

[smk4565]

Saab's 3 models combined to sell 800 cars last month, that brand and all the models need to go away now. All of Saturn can die. Buick could use a small SUV, but the GM product planning idiots made the SRX as a dressed up Equinox, so making a Buick version is redundant. G3, G5, G6 should die in 09.

[Croc]

smk, how many dealerships sell SAAB? Where are they located? In urban areas or on the periphery? If SAAB were joined with every B-P-GMC dealership, I'm betting they'd sell a lot more than 800 cars in a November.

[smk4565]

smk, how many dealerships sell SAAB? Where are they located? In urban areas or on the periphery? If SAAB were joined with every B-P-GMC dealership, I'm betting they'd sell a lot more than 800 cars in a November.

Pittsburgh has 4, one downtown (although it may have gone under) one in the south suburbs, one north (that did go bust and is now with a Pontiac-Hummer-GMC dealership, and one on the east suburbs that is at a Saturn, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac mega dealership.

Saab I thought had nearly 200 dealers nationwide, 4 cars per dealer doesn't cut it. Lexus only has 200-250 dealers and outsells Cadillac with 1,000 and Buick with 1,500. Number of dealers isn't the problem, the products Saab has are.

Edited December 9, 2008 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

Only 3 SAAB dealers here in the Metro Phoenix area, pretty small for an area w/ over 4 million people. Then again, SAAB has historically had a stronger following in the NE than elsewhere.

[Croc]

Pittsburgh has 4, one downtown (although it may have gone under) one in the south suburbs, one north (that did go bust and is now with a Pontiac-Hummer-GMC dealership, and one on the east suburbs that is at a Saturn, Buick, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac mega dealership.

Saab I thought had nearly 200 dealers nationwide, 4 cars per dealer doesn't cut it. Lexus only has 200-250 dealers and outsells Cadillac with 1,000 and Buick with 1,500. Number of dealers isn't the problem, the products Saab has are.

Again, though...where are they located? Pittsburgh is one city. Los Angeles doesn't have one anywhere near me, and I live fairly centrally. There are a total of 6 SAAB dealerships within 50 miles of downtown, and only one is actually in Los Angeles--but it's all the way out west past Beverly Hills. The rest are, well, within 50 miles of downtown Los Angeles. Thousand Oaks, Santa Ana, Mission Viejo, Pasadena, Sherman Oaks all have one, but that isn't very good coverage. Chevrolet and Cadillac dealerships are in much better locations, and are much more numerous.

Indianapolis? 40 minutes away, and again, I lived centrally. One dealership. And where is it located? Waaaaaay up in the northeastern suburb. Different county than Indianapolis.