GM asks Congress to kickstart its heart with ambitious plan

[Camino LS6]

A niche brand can mean anything, even a brand of small 4 cylinder fuel efficient vehicles.

Not according to La Neve.

[Robert Hall]

In that case... can you elaborate on this "Plan B" that has been mentioned if the government decides not to help out?

Ask Toyota for a bailout?

[Camino LS6]

Raid GMChina's profits?

Sell GME?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not according to La Neve.

LaNeve (AKA: Mr. Snow), or anyone else in his position would have to say that, GM doesn't want Pontiac dealers screaming from the rooftops.

You did see in the plan where you told me to look where it says, "with Pontiac serving as a specialty/niche brand with reduced product offerings". What does reduced mean to you?

Pontiac for a time will be the entry level brand for BPG.

As I said before, only the core brands of Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet will get an Alpha.

[Camino LS6]

LaNeve (AKA: Mr. Snow), or anyone else in his position would have to say that, GM doesn't want Pontiac dealers screaming from the rooftops.

You did see in the plan where you told me to look where it says, "with Pontiac serving as a specialty/niche brand with reduced product offerings". What does reduced mean to you?

Pontiac for a time will be the entry level brand for BPG.

As I said before, only the core brands of Cadillac, Buick, and Chevrolet will get an Alpha.

Hmm, we shall see.

How's that Opel/Saturn thing looking these days?

J/K: I know things aren't great from where you sit right now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

In that case... can you elaborate on this "Plan B" that has been mentioned if the government decides not to help out?

You mean where the Chapter 11 paperwork is signed and sitting on Fritz' desk?

[Northstar]

How are small, 4-cylinder cars consider niche cars? That's a huge market, not a niche market. Small, RWD, 4-cylinder cars would be a niche market.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Hmm, we shall see.

How's that Opel/Saturn thing looking these days?

J/K: I know things aren't great from where you sit right now.

Actually things are great from where I sit, this plan doesn't include Opel or GME.

[VenSeattle]

How are small, 4-cylinder cars consider niche cars? That's a huge market, not a niche market. Small, RWD, 4-cylinder cars would be a niche market.

Isn't Scion still considered a niche brand? They have three models and won't come close to its 150k production cap this year. Check over at Suzuki as well. They won't hit 100k in US sales this year.

I'd say Pontiac's brand image is in worse shape than both of the others when it comes to marketing small 4-cyl cars.

Even strong 4-cyl brands aren't selling well this year, like VW...

Jetta sedan/wagon have only sold 89k this year.

Golf/Rabbit/GTI/R32 have only sold around 34k this year.

[Robert Hall]

Isn't Scion still considered a niche brand? They have three models and won't come close to its 150k production cap this year. Check over at Suzuki as well. They won't hit 100k in US sales this year.

I'd say Pontiac's brand image is in worse shape than both of the others when it comes to marketing small 4-cyl cars.

Even strong 4-cyl brands aren't selling well this year, like VW...

Jetta sedan/wagon have only sold 89k this year.

Golf/Rabbit/GTI/R32 have only sold around 34k this year.

I suppose the question is, how is Pontiac going to differentiate themselves from Chevy and Saturn in the subcompact/compact 4cyl space? Hard to do that with badge-engineered Chevy compacts and a Toyota that they have now.

[Camino LS6]

At this point I am going to give LaNeve the benefit of the doubt that Pontiac will be a niche performance brand for BPG "like Corvette is for Chevy".

I don't think econoboxes are on the agenda.

[Robert Hall]

I don't think econoboxes are on the agenda.

BPG dealers demand them to compete with Chevy...and Pontiac Canada definitely likes 'em..

[gm4life]

Pontiac will be around I and would guess some changes like no Vibe and Torrent. I think a FWD G6 for volume possibly a smaller sporty FWD car along with a Solstice and G8 would make for a good line-up. I think Pontiac will be saved.

[Camino LS6]

BPG dealers demand them to compete with Chevy...and Pontiac Canada definitely likes 'em..

Yes, but they may be wearing the "B" rather than the "P"

Canada may be a different story.

[gm4life]

BPG dealers demand them to compete with Chevy...and Pontiac Canada definitely likes 'em..

Which is why I thnk we see some rebages like a compact/small car a unique G6 and performance RWD models like G8 and Solstice. I don't think the plan includes half backed Vibes and Azteks.

[gm4life]

Yes, but they may be wearing the "B" rather than the "P"

Canada may be a different story.

Which opens the door for America. I doubt Pontiac is going anywhere.

[z28luvr01]

It's not looking good, folks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_.../congress_autos

The bailout faces a skeptical public. Sixty-one percent oppose providing the auto companies with billions in federal assistance, according to a CNN-Opinion Research Corp. poll released Wednesday. Fifty-three percent said it would not help the economy.

Few saw any quick impact if the U.S. auto industry were to go bankrupt — only one in three expected to be affected immediately or in a year. Most of the rest said they thought it would affect them eventually, though nearly one-quarter said they would never feel its impact.

This is what GM is up against: a vast majority of people that don't give a crap as long as they can still buy a Camry and take it to Walmart to fill it with disposable Chinese-made junk. How about GM, F, and C compromise and ask for a couple billion each, just to tide them over until Jan 20?

[Camino LS6]

It's not looking good, folks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081204/ap_on_.../congress_autos

This is what GM is up against: a vast majority of people that don't give a crap as long as they can still buy a Camry and take it to Walmart to fill it with disposable Chinese-made junk. How about GM, F, and C compromise and ask for a couple billion each, just to tide them over until Jan 20?

Interesting, since a poll done before the BS machine cranked it up showed a huge majority in the other direction.

There are people here that are making me hate my own country.

And it ticks me off.

[smk4565]

Pontiac may be Solstice and G8 only and the G8 will likely be replaced by an Alpha sedan when that platform is ready.. I could see Pontiac being phased out by 2012 also. The money isn't there to keep them alive. Without a bailout (which 61% of the country and Congress currently opposes) they have to file for bankruptcy in January and probably only Chevy will survive. They have to sell or shut down Hummer, Saab and Saturn ASAP.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wait, 1 in 3 will be affected immediately or in a year and there is even a debate?

[gm4life]

Interesting, since a poll done before the BS machine cranked it up showed a huge majority in the other direction.

There are people here that are making me hate my own country.

And it ticks me off.

Yup and that is sad. The Camry no matter where it is made is not American, Toyota is a FORIGEN COMPANY. Can't people figure that out.

[gm4life]

SMK you are right Saab, Saturn and Hummer need to go now and they need to go through with all of this bailout or not because if not it is chapter 11 and these ideas will be a good way of getting back to becoming profitable and competitive. The UAW needs to give up even more and become competitive with Toyota in American before GM runs out of dough. Rick needs to work for a dollar and Hummer should be starved of product. Just get rid of them already.

Edited December 4, 2008 by gm4life

[Robert Hall]

Yup and that is sad. The Camry no matter where it is made is not American, Toyota is a FOREIGN COMPANY. Can't people figure that out.

Most people just don't care...after all, most all our other consumer products are imported---clothes, TVs, cell phones, etc. As long as people can buy a Honda, Toyota or other reliable appliance to get them to and fro work and to and from Wal-Mart/Target/Costco/Sams Club to stock up on cheap Chinese products, they are content. That's just the way it is in the US, circa 2008.

[gm4life]

I agree Moltar and this isn't a political thing is about supporting American compaines. Agree or not on how GM gets to the point of becoming competitive we all want whats best for the General and lets hope that happens. Personally I have two cars made in Canada that doesn't bother me because it is supporting an American company. If there ever was a world war again and we needed the car plants to help out I wonder whose side Toyota would be on... Gee I wonder... I know where Ford, GM and Chrylser would stand. It is about where my money is going and I send enough money over-sea's as it is.

Edited December 4, 2008 by gm4life

[Robert Hall]

I agree Moltar and this isn't a political thing is about supporting American compaines. Agree or not on how GM gets to the point of becoming competitive we all want whats best for the General and lets hope that happens. Personally I have two cars made in Canada that doesn't bother me because it is supporting an American company. If there ever was a world war again and we needed the car plants to help out I wonder whose side Toyota would be on... Gee I wonder... I know where Ford, GM and Chrylser would stand. It is about where my money is going and I send enough money over-sea's as it is.

Agreed...too many people just can't see the big picture or think beyond themselves and their short-term personal interests. This really needs to be an issue about what is best for the US (and for Canada as well). We've already lost many, many other industries in NA...

[Camino LS6]

Most people just don't care...after all, most all our other consumer products are imported---clothes, TVs, cell phones, etc. As long as people can buy a Honda, Toyota or other reliable appliance to get them to and fro work and to and from Wal-Mart/Target/Costco/Sams Club to stock up on cheap Chinese products, they are content. That's just the way it is in the US, circa 2008.

Yes, and they are too stupid to realize the scope of the economic disaster they are helping to create.

We've become a country of idiots.

[gmcbob]

So let's assume GM doesn't get their money and they file for Ch 11, what do you think will happen over the course of the next 6 months if that happens?

Ch 7 liquidation?

Maybe a "better off" (financially) company with only Chevrolet and Cadillac (maybe Buick)?

The skeptic in me doesn't see Washington coming to an agreement over whether or not any of these companies deserve a loan, nor where that loan money would come from honestly. Who knows, we'll see, but my gut is telling me some very bad days are forthcoming for fans of the auto industry, and more importantly, those directly employed by GM, Chrsyler, and maybe even Ford.

[pow]

Expect GM to sell only a part of Saab, retaining slightly more than 50%, as they do GM Daewoo. Initially the rest may go to the Swedish government in return for assistance. Note that Saab will be building the 3-door Astra in addition to the Delta-based 9-1 and 9-3. Whether they stay in the US market, or keep producing a midsize 9-5 model is another matter. Of course, the "new" direction for Saab may simply be in focus, perhaps the "green" luxury brand BMW has been considering. With a focus on downsizing the next generation, aerodynamics, BioPower engines, and the BioHybrid concepts, they're halfway there already. They just need to change the marketing focus and build a 9-e using the E-Flex system.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, since it actually is in GM's plan, unlike so much other stuff that has been reported:

The Beat.

I like that idea - a scaled-down Saab brand modeled after MINI.

Saab can focus on small, eco-friendly niche cars, while Cadillac can take on the sports sedan and luxury SUV market.

There's nothing wrong with having multiple brands, so long as each one makes a profit. I assume Saab's current operations are simply too large and too costly relative to their sales, so downsizing seems like a viable option, more so than abolishing the brand altogether and incurring Oldsmobilian costs in the process.

It's the same for Pontiac and Buick - which can be even leaner than Saab, by not having core products of their own to develop. There are many fine Holdens and Opels appropriate for the two brands.

In theory, having just two brands - one mainstream, one luxury - would be most efficient, but GM has obligations to fulfill and history to reckon with.

[Camino LS6]

If they don't get this done, and stabilize the financial, credit, and housing, markets.

We are all in for very rough times.

All of us.

For GM, Chapter11 will become Chapter7 very quickly.

[Chicagoland]

Big problem is people just think "i dont like their cars, so what?" And then ask them what particular car and they'd bring up Vega, Pinto, Volare' or some other ancient car. Come on over 25 years of improvements and some still think US cars are same as then!

People will gladly throw money into China Inc, but "They dont trust" American companies.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Chicagoland

[vt_hokie]

Come on over 25 years of improvements and some still think US cars are same as then!

In terms of dent resistance, my Saturn was unsurpassed! The thin sheetmetal on all of today's cars isn't an improvement when it comes to door and fender dings.

[regfootball]

Big problem is people just think "i dont like their cars, so what?" And then ask them what particular car and they'd bring up Vega, Pinto, Volare' or some other ancient car. Come on over 25 years of improvements and some still think US cars are same as then!

People will gladly throw money into China Inc, but "They dont trust" American companies.

we excuse lead paint in chinese toys.

to me there are three lingering stereotypes that drive a lot of America's thinking.

1-Pinto's Vegas etc.....that mindset that GM still builds vegas even though if you let them drive a new CTS for a month, they'd still complain

2-german cars must be better, they race a lot, and drive at high speeds on the AUTOBAHN. so their cars MUST be better.

3-lastly is the lingering racial profiling that those nice quiet Asians sit and work diligently after years and years of all those math and science classes, now they toil endlessly using their quiet little scientist minds to make and build sht for us holier than thou Americans. Whatever they make must be perfect, because that's all those people do.....sit and study and overwork because they are fanatically studious just exist to build our sht.

face it, America's confidence in just about everything is shot. Like my dad said, it doesn't even matter, people have this perception that they have been fueling the detroit money machine for 50 years plus, they feel entitled to something. All give, nothing in return. So they actually see this as retribution......to the company that has fueled their mobility for the last century.

What they don't see is that they will spend this money on transportation....and that maybe its important that we provide this here on our own soil.

This is America, people won't care until the carnage affects them.

We're a culture of tear it down, build them back up. We love soap operas. People want to see Detroit go away, not maybe so much like Jesus on the cross, but it seems to reek of the same kind of sentiment. They want the big 3 gone. But maybe it will be a nice feel good story someday when GM is resurrected. No one seems to care if we destroy thousands of lives in the meantime.

We would not be a mobile society without Ford GM etc. We may not have had as much industrialization, and roads and sprawling burbs without GM or Ford Chrysler etc. OUr worldly and mobile lives have enabled a prosperity for us that unmatched in the world. The companies that built the products that enabled us to do that and employ and support millions of employees and their families etc......now its not worth anything to anyone.

You know, aside from the real estate bubble, energy prices explosion, food price explosion, bank credit issues .......the main problem that is never mentioned in all of this....people's wages and livelihoods have not kept up with the cost of everything else during the bush administration. a culture was fostered in this country to enable corporate america to bleed the working classes dry......of your home values, bank accounts, investments, your net worth. although consumers are to blame for some behavior, any person with half a brain can find that with all the outsourcing, underemployment due to lack of new or expanding industries, wage cuts, 'free' trade, outside companies coming in and sucking our money out and sending it elsewhere, war spending, where do you stop.........

the wage bubble will start to hit the MBa types soon if it hasn't already. hopefully too the exec classes and such. if the upper crust wants to continue that way, they need to learn that the bottom feeders (other 95% of our population) needs to have the ability to live decently too. With runaway inflation, stripping our wealth, and the complete destruction of decent jobs and wage scales in this country, i guess now we're seeing the fallout. Maybe Biden was right. stick it to the wealthy and make them pay for it.

of course, politicians are the last people we admire and trust too. everyone has let Americans down, even if we are to blame ourselves.

Edited December 4, 2008 by regfootball

[titan]

At this point I am going to give LaNeve the benefit of the doubt that Pontiac will be a niche performance brand for BPG "like Corvette is for Chevy".

I don't think econoboxes are on the agenda.

You're right. They're not. It's amazing to me that some here still suggest that Pontiac will be reduced to a Vibe, G3, G6, etc. Pontiac will offer no volume brands, going forward. Certainly not any blatant rebadges. It'll share a platform or two, but will surely be unique to the brand and focused on performance. And when I say performance, I don't necessarily mean 400HP V8 power. The Solstice/Sky proved that GM could make a really fun small car. Instead of the next Gen Solstice being marketed as a Miata fighter, with the SKY gone, it can move upmarket; sold as a premium car that competes more favorably and directly with the Z4 and SLK. Sure, the price will be less expensive, and it may not have as much power as those cars, but with the right appeal and small numbers (an obvious result of not being a volume model), it's sure to help Pontiac regain some of it's coolness.

[turbo200]

right, the whole point in making a plan is making one viable. if they made the decision to keep pontiac and utilize resources to keep it around, then they should max out the potential, and not just be silly about it.

"performance cars" aren't all 400 hp beasts. the miata is one of the best handling cars out there. altima is considered a sporty sedan with great handling. the old 240sx had barely 140hp, but was an amazing drive. performance cars are about fun to drive characteristics, good power is just one of those characteristics, and is one that is defined differently. fuel efficiency and performance cars are not mutually exclusive.

i won't get my panties wound up over one person's comments about what Pontiac will remain or won't be. however, it would be tantamount to traitorism if GM took the money out of our pockets and then stupidly changed course on a plan or did not make the most of what is left of itself.

[Intrepidation]

right, the whole point in making a plan is making one viable. if they made the decision to keep pontiac and utilize resources to keep it around, then they should max out the potential, and not just be silly about it.

"performance cars" aren't all 400 hp beasts. the miata is one of the best handling cars out there. altima is considered a sporty sedan with great handling. the old 240sx had barely 140hp, but was an amazing drive. performance cars are about fun to drive characteristics, good power is just one of those characteristics, and is one that is defined differently. fuel efficiency and performance cars are not mutually exclusive.

i won't get my panties wound up over one person's comments about what Pontiac will remain or won't be. however, it would be tantamount to traitorism if GM took the money out of our pockets and then stupidly changed course on a plan or did not make the most of what is left of itself.

Well, if they don't blow $200,000 or so on a vacation the day after they get the money (if they ever do), they're already doing better with our money than the banks Congress is so eager to hand money out to.

[thegriffon]

More on Saab from Auto News:

Jonsson said a decision on Saab's future including possible new financing or new stakeholders will be made in the next two or three months. He declined to reveal how much money Saab is seeking.

"A total sale is far down the priority list. We have integrated ourselves into GM as an organization and on the product side," Jonsson said.

A complete shutdown of Saab also "is totally off the map," Jonsson said. "Next year we will start to roll out new products and that is a great opportunity to get some revenue."

[jbartley]

Apparently GMC isn't on the chopping block, which makes sense and doesn't at the same time. The brand doesn't cost much to make products for, but at the same time the products are direct overlap with Chevy trucks.

But it has decent sales, and it attacts customers that wouldn't dare set food in a chevrolet dealership. and it's free money!

[smk4565]

Sales don't matter, only profit does. GM has to figure out a way to keep the lights on and make payroll. Bankruptcy is 4 weeks away, anything that isn't essential and unique needs to be cut.

[cletus8269]

I stated in the Buick thread that Buick could platform share with Chevy and do a fancier version of the Cruze, Malibu, Nox and Traverse combined with a Zeta sedan and have a lineup that fills the void nicely between Chevy and Cadillac. The potential is there to make some great products, whether or not people will buy them is the question.

but wouldnt that be badge engineering? wouldnt that just get gm back to where they are now?

[Robert Hall]

but wouldnt that be badge engineering? wouldnt that just get gm back to where they are now?

Well, they would have to have distinct sheetmetal and interiors...like the Traverse and Enclave, Nox and Vue, Impala and LaCrosse, Malibu and '10 LaCrosse. Nothing wrong w/ platform sharing, with sufficient brand-specific differentiation.

[cire]

Good points all around. I see where many are coming from on all accounts. With that said, you all probably have guessed by now that I dearly hope GM keeps Saturn to fight the likes of VW, Mini, etc.

So, my next question to all of you (and I really do want to know what everyone feels about this) is, that if GM (along with Ford and Chrysler) are in this whole pickle moreso than the imports because they failed to deliver on the need for smaller and more fuel efficient cars, where does that leave them once they axe Saturn and move Pontiac into a niche-type status? I don't see Buick offering small fuel efficient cars, and certainly, Pontiac will no longer offer re-badged small offerings. So does this mean that the one thing GM needs the most, is going to be offered solely by Chevrolet? If so, what happens if Chevy's line of cheaply-priced small cars don't appeal to those who want better quality like what's offered at VW, Toyota, Mazda and Honda? GM is going to nose-dive once again, because they need small and efficient cars more than anything else in the world right now. What I would suggest, is that you'd have Chevy's cheap and basic small cars, and as a stepup from that, you'd have Saturn's line of Opel-based products. For a bit more money, you can have better interior materials, sportier exteriors, more hybrid options (Vue/Aura), better interior materials, etc.

All I see with their plan is to focus on GM's core brands, but isn't the neglect for something different what got GM in this predicament in the first place? Sure its great to have fuel-efficient V8 trucks, and Punchy V6 midsized and fullsized cars, but where's the long-awaited small car replacements that will help position GM to weather the next fuel crisis? The Cruze that will cost more than the current cobalt? Or how about the Volt that will cost more than what most middle-class families can even afford?

Where is GM's answer to VW's clean-burning diesel technology? And, if they did offer it, would you find it in the likes of Pontiac's niche vehicles, or Buick's Lexus-fighting cars? Not likely.

So is Chevy going to offer these types of small cars alone? What are your thoughts?

I don't think GM will ever consider giving any Euro Opel products to Chevrolet. Opel is moving upmarket and the brand's future products will not fit into Chevrolet's role of providing affordable mainstream products for the masses. Some Euro Opel products would be a good fit for Buick due to Buick's traditional image as a premium vehicle brand. The current Insignia sedan/wagon, the next gen Astra sedan/wagon, and the next gen Antara would be excellent products to complete the smaller portions of Buick's lineup. I think these products would sell better and make more of an impact in the market as Buick products because of the traditional premium positioning of the brand as well as the excellent quality/reliability scores the brand achieves. I also believe that there is a niche market in the U.S. for Euro Opel's next gen Corsa 3-door/5-door, next gen Astra 3-door/5-door, as well as the next gen Meriva/Zafira small MPVs, but I don't think Buick is the appropriate brand to carry these products. Saturn would make a great outlet for these types of vehicles as a sub-brand of Buick in the B-P-G network. I think many Americans still view hatchbacks and small MPVs as quirky types of vehicles (especially in the premium segment) and Saturn has always had a quirky image; I think this would be a perfect marriage of product and brand if GM would correctly execute it. I see a Buick/Saturn merger essentially acting as a kind of Toyota/Scion for the premium segment of the market; Buick would pursue volume sales in the segment with more traditional products (sedans, coupes, wagons, and crossovers) while Saturn would pursue the offbeat portion of the segment with smaller, quirkier products (hatchbacks and small MPVs). Overall, I agree and disagree with you. I do believe that Buick can be expanded into more of a fullscale premium brand that offers smaller products if the products fit in with Buick's brand image. That being said, I don't see Buick carrying hatchbacks, small MPVs, or anything smaller than the compact class. This would leave a gap in the premium segment for GM that can be effectively covered by Saturn as an entry premium small vehicle sub-brand. If this proposed Buick/Saturn merger would offer AWD as optional equipment on their FWD based products, then I see this merger effectively competing with Acura, Lincoln/Mercury, Audi, and Volvo in the U.S.

As far as GM competing with Toyota/Scion, Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Ford, and VW, I would hope that the next generation of small Chevrolet products will be engineered and equipped to handle this task.

[AAS]

I don't think GM will ever consider giving any Euro Opel products to Chevrolet....

Some (Corsa, Astra, Zafira(?)) are already sold as Chevrolets in Mexico (at least?).

[cire]

Actually, in an interview a GM exec (LaNeve, IIRC), said that Pontiac would become a niche performance brand for BPG "like Corvette is to Chevy".

Not proof, of course, but more promising than the "grey" language in the plan itself.

Now that you mentioned it, I do remember reading that somewhere. I do agree that it sounds more promising than the language expressed in the actual submitted plan.

The only thing that worries me is if LaNeve's words are the absolute truth or just simply a smokescreen to pacify Pontiac enthusiasts, dealers, whoever... Bob Lutz made the claim that Pontiac would be transformed into an all RWD niche division at one point, but then the division was given the G3 Aveo clone. This is why I have little faith that this plan for Pontiac will ever become reality, although I would be pleasantly surprised and thrilled if it did.

I also agree with PCS: With GM fighting for its very survival, I really don't think Pontiac's future as a performance niche division is high on the corporation's priority list at the moment or anytime in the near future.

[cire]

Some (Corsa, Astra, Zafira(?)) are already sold as Chevrolets in Mexico (at least?).

You're right. I did forget about that. I still don't see any future Opel products being given to Chevrolet in the U.S. with the Opel brand moving upmarket, though. I think most future small vehicles sold by Chevrolet in the U.S. will probably be based on GMDAT products.

Edited December 4, 2008 by cire

[cire]

Interesting, since a poll done before the BS machine cranked it up showed a huge majority in the other direction.

There are people here that are making me hate my own country.

And it ticks me off.

I agree.

It is also frightening that people have their heads so buried that they don't see the ripple effect or perpetual repercussions if the U.S. automakers do not survive. Unbelievable.

[smk4565]

but wouldnt that be badge engineering? wouldnt that just get gm back to where they are now?

No, it would be platform sharing. The Buick Cruze should start at $24,000 (likely a few more grand than a loaded Cruze) Buick Malibu (LaCrosse) priced $28-34,000, above the Malibu LTZ. The Buick Vue/Nox would also be $28-34k. The MKZ and ES350 don't overlap with the Fusion and Camry, Buick needs to follow that model, but focus on small to midsize, right now the baby Buick is longer than an LS460, that doesn't work.

Get rid of Pontiac, Saturn, Saab and the product overlap problem is gone. Keep the kappa roadster for Buick. Zeta Buick should be back burner, a Zeta Impala can fill the need for full size car and overlap the LaCrosse in price. If Chevy has 12-15 or so models, Buick has 5 based of Chevy platforms, and Cadillac has 6 models, they'll have 25 or so models, which GM can manage and keep competitive.

Edited December 4, 2008 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

No, it would be platform sharing. The Buick Cruze should start at $24,000 (likely a few more grand than a loaded Cruze) Buick Malibu (LaCrosse) priced $28-34,000, above the Malibu LTZ. The Buick Vue/Nox would also be $28-34k. The MKZ and ES350 don't overlap with the Fusion and Camry, Buick needs to follow that model, but focus on small to midsize, right now the baby Buick is longer than an LS460, that doesn't work.

Your point stands, but your facts are again wrong. Stop stretching the truth to make your points.

Lacrosse - 198in

LS460 - 198in

[Robert Hall]

Your point stands, but your facts are again wrong. Stop stretching the truth to make your points.

Lacrosse - 198in

LS460 - 198in

A couple sources list the LaCrosse at 198.1, but that's immaterial..the W's have long overhangs. The '10 LaCrosse (on the Epsi-Dos platform) I assume will be closer to the Malibu dimensionally..

[pow]

Your point stands, but your facts are again wrong. Stop stretching the truth to make your points.

Lacrosse - 198in

LS460 - 198in

Wow, I never knew that. The LS seems so much bigger in person, both inside and out.

[Robert Hall]

Wow, I never knew that. The LS seems so much bigger in person, both inside and out.

Well, there is the LS460L which are LWB, 202.8 inches. They are a big car..

Edited December 4, 2008 by moltar