GM asks Congress to kickstart its heart with ambitious plan

[Camino LS6]

GMCs aren't more money, Sierra is $19,020 base, Silverado is $19,550, Silverado LTZ is $42k, Sierra SLT is $41k. Canyon is $16,905, Colorado is $18,555. The Yukon is $10 less than a Tahoe. The Acadia is more than a Traverse because of more standard equipment. GMC is competition for Chevy, and therefor has to offer products unlike Chevy, or be gone.

Buick and Olds did not make identical vehicles like GMC and Chevy do. Olds had more refined DOHC engines, sportier suspensions and more technology than Buick. LaCrosse/Lucerne don't handle as well as Intrigue/Aurora and if you had the DOHC 3.5 or 4.0 you won't want a 3800. If Buick's current lineup was similar to Lincoln or Acura, they may have captured more Olds buyers.

You are seriously delusional.

[Robert Hall]

You are seriously delusional.

I didn't see delusion..

I don't know if his pricing numbers are accurate, but otherwise---the last Oldsmobiles did have more modern drivetrains and were more 'international' than the Buicks, which were more old-fogey style cars. Compare the 2nd gen Aurora to the LeSabre, or the Intrique to the Century/Regal.

And GMC is still by and large redundant with Chevy, with only trivial differences. Their most unique model currently is the Acadia.

[Camino LS6]

I didn't see delusion..

I don't know if his pricing numbers are accurate, but otherwise---the last Oldsmobiles did have more modern drivetrains and were more 'international' than the Buicks, which were more old-fogey style cars. Compare the 2nd gen Aurora to the LeSabre, or the Intrique to the Century/Regal.

And GMC is still by and large redundant with Chevy, with only trivial differences. Their most unique model currently is the Acadia.

The delusion begins with the assumption that better drivetrains would have kept former Olds buyers within the fold. It continues with the belief that similar flawed thinking would send GMC buyers to Chevy. To even consider killing GMC, given it's sales and profit power, and see benefit in that idea, is delusional in the extreme.

It makes no sense, at all.

[Drew Dowdell]

GMCs aren't more money, Sierra is $19,020 base, Silverado is $19,550, Silverado LTZ is $42k, Sierra SLT is $41k. Canyon is $16,905, Colorado is $18,555. The Yukon is $10 less than a Tahoe. The Acadia is more than a Traverse because of more standard equipment. GMC is competition for Chevy, and therefor has to offer products unlike Chevy, or be gone.

Buick and Olds did not make identical vehicles like GMC and Chevy do. Olds had more refined DOHC engines, sportier suspensions and more technology than Buick. LaCrosse/Lucerne don't handle as well as Intrigue/Aurora and if you had the DOHC 3.5 or 4.0 you won't want a 3800. If Buick's current lineup was similar to Lincoln or Acura, they may have captured more Olds buyers.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but yet again, you're wrong:

Silverado LTZ is $42k

Sierra Denali is $43k - can be optioned up into the low 50s.

Base MSRP for the Colorado work truck is $15,085

Base MSRP for the Canyon work truck is $15,085

Top trim for the Colorado starts at $26,940

Top trim for the Canyon starts at $30,005

Tahoe Base MSRP: $34,630 - $50,900

Yukan Base MSRP: $35,345 - $52,630

Suburban 1500 Base MSRP: $38,085 - $52,960

Yukon XL 1500 Base MSRP: $38,915 - $55,435

Suburban 2500 Base MSRP: $39,495 - $47,840

Yukon XL 2500 Base MSRP: $40,335 - $50,025

[Robert Hall]

The delusion begins with the assumption that better drivetrains would have kept former Olds buyers within the fold. It continues with the belief that similar flawed thinking would send GMC buyers to Chevy. To even consider killing GMC, given it's sales and profit power, and see benefit in that idea, is delusional in the extreme.

It makes no sense, at all.

Well, Buick needed more modern powertrains 5-8 years ago..they still have 4spd automatics and dated pushrod V6s in their sedans.

If GMC is low cost to keep around, they may as well keep it...

[Robert Hall]

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but yet again, you're wrong:

Top trim for the Colorado starts at $26,940

Top trim for the Canyon starts at $30,005

$30k for a POS like the Canyon? That is a joke..one of GM's weakest links are their compact trucks, IMHO.

[Drew Dowdell]

I didn't see delusion..

I don't know if his pricing numbers are accurate, but otherwise---the last Oldsmobiles did have more modern drivetrains and were more 'international' than the Buicks, which were more old-fogey style cars. Compare the 2nd gen Aurora to the LeSabre, or the Intrique to the Century/Regal.

He is delusional because he'll maintain that if only the CTS-V/Lucerne/Impala/Whatever had DOHC instead of pushrod, they'd finally be able to sell them... yet at the same time, Olds had a nearly entire lineup of DOHC goodness, and still the 3800 is still here and the 3.5 and 4.0 are gone.

He is delusional because the prices he quoted are entirely wrong.

[regfootball]

is my 011 astra going to be an Opel, Saturn, Buick, Saab, or Pontiac? that's about all i want to know right now.

[CARBIZ]

Although it's true that the Intrigue and the Alero had no Buick counterparts, it was too little, too late. The Alero came out in '99 and the all new Aurora a couple years later. The writing must have been on the wall already. In it's 4 year existence the Alero never received any significant revisions. Besides, the Alero was identical to the Grand Am.

It could be argued that GM started pushing Olds in the right direction by the late '90s, but they should have been doing that in the late '80s to battle Acura/Lexus. Again, let's lay the blame on Smith and his cronies for entirely missing that boat.

Tell me, who here can tell the difference between a 2000 LeSabre versus a 2000 88?

As to the GMC/Chev debate: it is not a matter of whether GMC buyers will go to Chevrolet or not, it's a matter of ECONOMICS. There has to be a cost/benefit analisys for how many GMC buyers they will lose, versus the cost of keeping those buyers. None of this is going to be easy, boys and girls.

If GM had money and could be guaranteed 20% market share, then a business model could justify 8 divisions and money to go around, but we all know that they do not. Sacrifices are going to have to be made. GM has to 'right-size' the company and they have very little time to do it.

[Lamar]

If GMC is low cost to keep around, they may as well keep it...

I think that's the point that's trying to be made.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Although it's true that the Intrigue and the Alero had no Buick counterparts, it was too little, too late. The Alero came out in '99 and the all new Aurora a couple years later. The writing must have been on the wall already. In it's 4 year existence the Alero never received any significant revisions. Besides, the Alero was identical to the Grand Am.

It could be argued that GM started pushing Olds in the right direction by the late '90s, but they should have been doing that in the late '80s to battle Acura/Lexus. Again, let's lay the blame on Smith and his cronies for entirely missing that boat.

Tell me, who here can tell the difference between a 2000 LeSabre versus a 2000 88?

As to the GMC/Chev debate: it is not a matter of whether GMC buyers will go to Chevrolet or not, it's a matter of ECONOMICS. There has to be a cost/benefit analisys for how many GMC buyers they will lose, versus the cost of keeping those buyers. None of this is going to be easy, boys and girls.

If GM had money and could be guaranteed 20% market share, then a business model could justify 8 divisions and money to go around, but we all know that they do not. Sacrifices are going to have to be made. GM has to 'right-size' the company and they have very little time to do it.

I think (hope) they'll be able to maintain 20%...

I'm an advocate of going back to the basic 6 division design.

It looks as if GM is going to do that (the big 4, Pontiac and at least a 50% stake in Saab) even if it desn't keep Saturn (I hope it does)

[Camino LS6]

Carbiz: Have you read the plan yet?

GMC isn't going anywhere, this is all a silly discussion, really.

[smk4565]

I pulled the prices from chevrolet.com and gmc.com and took the base prices. GMC is going to hang around because they can't kill every brand at once, but they do build redundant product and the Acadia competes with the Enclave and Traverse more than it does the Pilot or Flex. They should keep it, but get rid of the Yukon, and focus on work trucks, maybe make the Acadia a Ridgeline like product as earlier suggested.

Buick has an old fogey image, dated platforms and drivetrains, no touch screen nav or blue tooth or technology that younger buyers are interested in. Plus they are all large, the LaCrosse is 1 inch shy of the Aurora. Oldsmobile buyers weren't interested in that type of product, that is why Olds people went to the imports.

GM needs massive cost cuts so at least 3 brands have to go, I'd argue 4. Then they need product overhauls, the only way to survive is to build exceptional product. GM has to go beyond what everyone else is doing to restore the shattered image they currently have.

[cire]

My only worries about the whole Pontiac thing is the gray wording...

Does "reduced to a niche maker" mean a true performance division or does it mean "we're reducing Pontiac to a Mercury-like state in which it can be phased out if needed."

And by 'niche maker that compliments Buick and GMC' do they mean a tight line of truly desirable cars or a small line up of entry level rebadges? (Example: G3, G5, and Vibe)

Re: Saturn I really want Saturn to survive... Could GM maybe make it into a Scion-like division that focuses on small cars (like Saturn originally did) Offer 2 or 3 versions of the Corsa and/or Astra.

+1

GM never specifies what kind of "niche" Pontiac will fill. A lot of people on this forum are hoping/assuming that Pontiac will become a performance niche brand; I hope they are not too disappointed if this is not GM's real intention. GM has led people on before (myself included) with the hope of making Pontiac a focused performance niche brand, only to abandon or dilute the mission. With all the focus on fuel efficiency, I am not convinced or certain that GM will transform Pontiac into what we all want it to be. I sincerely hope I am wrong about this.

The worst case scenario would be that GM allows Pontiac to exist with small rebadged Chevy clones and the Vibe until smaller Buick products (probably based on Euro Opel vehicles) can be brought to market to replace them in the B-P-G network. When the smaller Buicks arrive, then Pontiac would be chopped. Again, I sincerely hope that I am wrong about this. I would be just as disappointed as the rest of you if this happens.

****************************************************************************

I also agree with you about Saturn. It could be merged into B-P-G as a sort of "upscale Scion". The assumption here is that Euro Opel products would be utilized to complete Buick's lineup. As much as I like this idea, there are some types of products (specifically hatchbacks and small MPVs) that I don't think "fit" very well with Buick's image. I realize that Buick has sold hatchbacks before (Skyhawk), but I just can't seem to wrap my head around a Corsa or Astra hatchback with a waterfall grille and tri-shield badge. This is where Saturn could fit in; it could be an entry premium brand that specializes in small hatchbacks/MPVs. Saturn would carry the next gen Corsa/Astra hatchbacks and the next gen Meriva/Zafira MPVs (maybe even the Agila city car and the production version of the Flextreme Concept). The next gen Astra sedan/wagon/"TwinTop", the next gen Tigra "TwinTop", the current Insignia sedan/wagon. and the next gen Antara crossover could all be used to fill in the lower portions of Buick's lineup.

[Chicagoland]

"Tell me, who here can tell the difference between a 2000 LeSabre versus a 2000 88? "

Here is one big difference: The Olds Eighty-Eight was last sold for 1999 MY.

[Drew Dowdell]

Tell me, who here can tell the difference between a 2000 LeSabre versus a 2000 88?

In 2000? The Eighty Eight had Aurora badges.

It's a trick question because there was no 2000 Eighty Eight and 2000 was the body style switchover for the LeSabre

However, in 1999, Eighty Eight could come with a supercharger and LeSabre came with Dramamine..... *dramatic voice* STANDARD!

[Drew Dowdell]

I pulled the prices from chevrolet.com and gmc.com and took the base prices. GMC is going to hang around because they can't kill every brand at once, but they do build redundant product and the Acadia competes with the Enclave and Traverse more than it does the Pilot or Flex. They should keep it, but get rid of the Yukon, and focus on work trucks, maybe make the Acadia a Ridgeline like product as earlier suggested.

Well then you did something wrong because the prices you pulled are either wrong or purposely selective.

+1 on the Lambda-lanche.

[Camino LS6]

Actually, in an interview a GM exec (LaNeve, IIRC), said that Pontiac would become a niche performance brand for BPG "like Corvette is to Chevy".

Not proof, of course, but more promising than the "grey" language in the plan itself.

[prinzSD]

If Saturn had never existed as a separate entity, and the good ideas behind it had been implemented at the lower end of the core brands, we might not even be in this mess right now.

That's where the rub is.

I think GM would continue Saturn if it were financially possible, but they are hamstrung by the small dealer network of stand-alone stores, and it would take another huge infusion of cash to even make a decent run at the problem. Saturn has cost GM dearly since the beginning, and keeping the brand now doesn't look feasible no matter what other brands would be cancelled to do so.

Also, the plan indicates that Opels would make their way to Buick - so the actual cars may not be lost at all.

Too early to tell.

That may be true in hindsight but it would not have worked. Many customers in the early days walked into Saturn dealers and bought them for their then unique characteristics and never new they bought a GM car. Had they known it was a GM car they would probably not even have looked at Saturn. Plus this experiment was easier to develope outside of the beauracratic GM. Apply no sales haggling, etc. too let's say Chevy, because of GMs reputation the public would have stayed clear of Chevy. What is truely sad is once the early successes of Saturn were established, they starved Saturn of product but even worse did not apply what they had learned from Saturn to other brands. For example when I brought my Saturn SL for routine maintanance or any service, they vacumed and washed my car. Meanwhile back at Pontiac, when I brought my Trans Am that cost 3 times more then the Saturn, not only would it not get vacumed or washed but I would occasionly get it back with grease smeared on my leather seats and carpet. What a maddening experience. GM lost a golden opportunity with Saturn as well as implementing techniques they learned from the Saturn experience throughout GM's structure. I do miss my SL but I still enjoy my Pontiacs and now a Vette..

[Chicagoland]

There wasnt even a year 2000 Aurora. They jumped to 2001 in early '00 when new gen was introduced. And, the 88 was the older H body, while Aurora was G body.

GM's big mistake with the sister divisions was in 1987-88, when Buick and Olds had to 'switch' identities. Buick went from 'sporty-Euro' to 'floaty boats', and Olds did vice versa. But, Buick's GN and T -Types had a cult following, and they lost a lot of cred in killing them. Olds was fine being 'plushmobiles', in fact that got them to #3!

[smk4565]

It could be argued that GM started pushing Olds in the right direction by the late '90s, but they should have been doing that in the late '80s to battle Acura/Lexus. Again, let's lay the blame on Smith and his cronies for entirely missing that boat.

GM has to 'right-size' the company and they have very little time to do it.

Agreed on point 1, Olds was turning around in the late 90s, but it was too late. Buick faces the same dilemma now, even with new product like the Enclave and 2010 LaCrosse, they are a decade behind and it could be too little too late.

They need to right-size in 2009, or there might not be a 2010. GM needs $4 billion in December just to stay alive, they have to make big changes fast.

[buickguy]

smk Maybe among your high school friends Buick has that image, but once you move on to college and onto the working world you will see something different. The Enclave has nav and bluetooth, and younger people are buying them. There are also folks who need a bigger vehicle.

Also, when you become an adult in the working world you will understand the vital role Buick plays in a worldwide GM.

[ZL-1]

Expect GM to sell only a part of Saab, retaining slightly more than 50%, as they do GM Daewoo. Initially the rest may go to the Swedish government in return for assistance. Note that Saab will be building the 3-door Astra in addition to the Delta-based 9-1 and 9-3. Whether they stay in the US market, or keep producing a midsize 9-5 model is another matter. Of course, the "new" direction for Saab may simply be in focus, perhaps the "green" luxury brand BMW has been considering. With a focus on downsizing the next generation, aerodynamics, BioPower engines, and the BioHybrid concepts, they're halfway there already. They just need to change the marketing focus and build a 9-e using the E-Flex system.

Interesting thoughts there! Also interesting that you mention BMW and their consideration of a 'green' luxury brand... SAAB could be more interesting for such a role (Sweden, their environmentally friendly collective consciousness, etc) than resurrecting one of the nameplates BMW owns... The problem is that BMW probably doesn't have the cash to buy a brand...

[titan]

smk Maybe among your high school friends Buick has that image, but once you move on to college and onto the working world you will see something different. The Enclave has nav and bluetooth, and younger people are buying them. There are also folks who need a bigger vehicle.

Also, when you become an adult in the working world you will understand the vital role Buick plays in a worldwide GM.

I agree 100%. The Enclave is Buicks best example that the brand isn't dead... and IMO, the interior can be upgraded to true luxury (real wood, softer materials). I see ALOT of 35-50 yr. old soccor moms and milfs that drive the Enclave (they can easily be driving RX350s). The reason they bought them instead of the Lexus was because it was larger, almost as plush in the interior and way more stylish and attractive for the exterior; all at a price that demostrates value when compared to the compeititon. Lets hope Buick can do this with the Lacrosse against the ES350. IMHO, Buick is still starving for a LWB Zeta based flagship named Roadmaster, Invicta, or Park Ave (the name Buick China uses), to go head to head in content, style and substance with the LS (all while being priced thousands of dollars cheaper).

[Robert Hall]

I agree 100%. The Enclave is Buicks best example that the brand isn't dead... and IMO, the interior can be upgraded to true luxury (real wood, softer materials). I see ALOT of 35-50 yr. old soccor moms and milfs that drive the Enclave (they can easily be driving RX350s). The reason they bought them instead of the Lexus was because it was larger, almost as plush in the interior and way more stylish and attractive for the exterior; all at a price that demostrates value when compared to the compeititon. Lets hope Buick can do this with the Lacrosse against the ES350. IMHO, Buick is still starving for a LWB Zeta based flagship named Roadmaster, Invicta, or Park Ave (the name Buick China uses), to go head to head in content, style and substance with the LS (all while being priced thousands of dollars cheaper).

I think w/ the sedans, I think Buick could do well by using the Lincoln MKS and MKZ as targets, as far as market segment and content.

[prinzSD]

I agree 100%. The Enclave is Buicks best example that the brand isn't dead... and IMO, the interior can be upgraded to true luxury (real wood, softer materials). I see ALOT of 35-50 yr. old soccor moms and milfs that drive the Enclave (they can easily be driving RX350s). The reason they bought them instead of the Lexus was because it was larger, almost as plush in the interior and way more stylish and attractive for the exterior; all at a price that demostrates value when compared to the compeititon. Lets hope Buick can do this with the Lacrosse against the ES350. IMHO, Buick is still starving for a LWB Zeta based flagship named Roadmaster, Invicta, or Park Ave (the name Buick China uses), to go head to head in content, style and substance with the LS (all while being priced thousands of dollars cheaper).

Exactly. My wife drives an RX300. The Rendevous was a weak attempt of making an RX300 competitor and we never considered it as an alternative. Had the Enclave been around it would have been a different choice. The Enclave is a much better looking vehicle and more elegant then the current RX330/350 and that would have been or be my choice. However the big sticking point with my wife as a realtor would have been that Buick is not as reliable and does not have the cache or status that her over glorified Toyota has.

[Chicagoland]

Olds was getting better products, but not the sales comeback. Import buyers were not interested, and old time Olds fans who loved plush 98 Regencys were scared off.

Anway, here's some dumb arguements from people I know against bail out:

"They will just use money to throw a party" [its not AIG]

"They should go bankrupt and fire the union workers" [and hire who?]

"No one bailed me out, so I dont care if othres lose jobs" [so it's OK to have 25% unemployment?]

"Workers can get re-trained easily" [Working at Walmart?]

Edited December 3, 2008 by Chicagoland

[smk4565]

smk Maybe among your high school friends Buick has that image, but once you move on to college and onto the working world you will see something different. The Enclave has nav and bluetooth, and younger people are buying them. There are also folks who need a bigger vehicle.

Also, when you become an adult in the working world you will understand the vital role Buick plays in a worldwide GM.

But the LaCrosse and Lucerne don't have those features. My mom is 54 and thinks Buicks are for old people, and wouldn't be caught dead in one. My Grandmother who is 76 though, enjoys her Buick.

I stated in the Buick thread that Buick could platform share with Chevy and do a fancier version of the Cruze, Malibu, Nox and Traverse combined with a Zeta sedan and have a lineup that fills the void nicely between Chevy and Cadillac. The potential is there to make some great products, whether or not people will buy them is the question.

The Enclave is 13 inches longer and nearly 1,000 pounds heavier than a Lexus RX350, big difference there, some people like big, most prefer midsize.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Enclave is 13 inches longer and nearly 1,000 pounds heavier than a Lexus RX350, big difference there, some people like big, most prefer midsize.

Enclave is there to catch people coming down out of their Suburbans and Tahoes who would otherwise be heading to Lexus for a smaller luxury crossover to "save gas"

[prinzSD]

Enclave is there to catch people coming down out of their Suburbans and Tahoes who would otherwise be heading to Lexus for a smaller luxury crossover to "save gas"

Well said.

[SAmadei]

GM's big mistake with the sister divisions was in 1987-88, when Buick and Olds had to 'switch' identities. Buick went from 'sporty-Euro' to 'floaty boats', and Olds did vice versa. But, Buick's GN and T -Types had a cult following, and they lost a lot of cred in killing them. Olds was fine being 'plushmobiles', in fact that got them to #3!

This is not the case. Buick was always upmarket of Olds. Historically, both (along with most of the rest of GM) produced 'floaty boats', but Buicks had more conservative options, styling and powertrain options. Olds was always more cutting edge and experimental, but they were still upmarket, well optioned and, well, floaty.

The GN and T-Type were Buicks answer to trying to inject some new life into a division that recognized that their demographic was getting _way_ too old. I don't feel either had a Euro feel... they were just sporty in the same way the GSes and Stage 1's in the '60s and '70s were. If anything, I felt that this was Buick attempting to copy Pontiac, not Europe.

GM first did Euro-like styling in the '90s with Olds and Saturn. This was a big mistake, IMHO.

[saturnd00d]

Good points all around. I see where many are coming from on all accounts. With that said, you all probably have guessed by now that I dearly hope GM keeps Saturn to fight the likes of VW, Mini, etc.

So, my next question to all of you (and I really do want to know what everyone feels about this) is, that if GM (along with Ford and Chrysler) are in this whole pickle moreso than the imports because they failed to deliver on the need for smaller and more fuel efficient cars, where does that leave them once they axe Saturn and move Pontiac into a niche-type status? I don't see Buick offering small fuel efficient cars, and certainly, Pontiac will no longer offer re-badged small offerings. So does this mean that the one thing GM needs the most, is going to be offered solely by Chevrolet? If so, what happens if Chevy's line of cheaply-priced small cars don't appeal to those who want better quality like what's offered at VW, Toyota, Mazda and Honda? GM is going to nose-dive once again, because they need small and efficient cars more than anything else in the world right now. What I would suggest, is that you'd have Chevy's cheap and basic small cars, and as a stepup from that, you'd have Saturn's line of Opel-based products. For a bit more money, you can have better interior materials, sportier exteriors, more hybrid options (Vue/Aura), better interior materials, etc.

All I see with their plan is to focus on GM's core brands, but isn't the neglect for something different what got GM in this predicament in the first place? Sure its great to have fuel-efficient V8 trucks, and Punchy V6 midsized and fullsized cars, but where's the long-awaited small car replacements that will help position GM to weather the next fuel crisis? The Cruze that will cost more than the current cobalt? Or how about the Volt that will cost more than what most middle-class families can even afford?

Where is GM's answer to VW's clean-burning diesel technology? And, if they did offer it, would you find it in the likes of Pontiac's niche vehicles, or Buick's Lexus-fighting cars? Not likely.

So is Chevy going to offer these types of small cars alone? What are your thoughts?

[hyperv6]

Buick can change their image if GM does it right.

Give the people a great car at a good price. Hyundia has taken this path to a great selling line up. It was not all that long ago Hyundia was not any better thought of than a Yugo.

Buick right now are selling ok old out dated cars [what few they offer] at not anything to write home about prices.

I am not saying you have to make Buick cheap but give the people a great quality car for the money like Hyundia is doing with the new Genesis.

We have to stop thinking of heritage or Grand Nationals. The majority of the buying public was the most car for the money and one they do not have to have repaired often with problems in or out of warranty.

GM is starting to get the cars right now but they really need to make sure every detail is right No more cars that are 80% right till the last year they are made. They need to be right the first year.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think w/ the sedans, I think Buick could do well by using the Lincoln MKS and MKZ as targets, as far as market segment and content.

[/quote

+1

Chris

[BuddyP]

For those of you that have a chance to stream through the internet through the day, go to foxnews.com, click on "radio" in the upper left hand corner. "Brian and the Judge" (9am-12 EST) and Tom Sullivan (3pm-6pm) are two of the "shows" that have been discussing the auto ordeal. However, seem to be against Detroit and have a LOT... and I mean MANY misconceptions of the auto company. Even callers saying "I drive an american car... one's built in Ohio, one in Kentucky..." referring to Honda's and Toyota's, you know how it is. Anyway, everybody that has a chance needs to listen and call in, here's the number....

http://www.foxnews.com/radio/index.html

1-866-859-2788

Explain how Toyota was able to come into the US and setup at GM's dealer networks that GM spent millions setting up, explain why they decided to build down south, explain why Toyota hires temps, explain that some of their vehicles built in the US are only ASSEMBLED here, made up mostly of imported parts.

It's now OUR turn! I'll be listening for you guys to call in!

[saturnd00d]

I don't think the majority are looking for ONLY dependable cars these days. Of course you want dependability in whatever choice of car you buy, but what I'm getting at, is that GM is losing more and more to the other brands because they offer good, solid small efficient cars and GM doesn't. I mean, the cobalt is a good car and all, but should it be the only good small car that GM offers? What happens if someone wants a hatchback vehicle like the VW Golf or Rabbit, or the Hyundai Accent? Well, take away the Astra, and GM may no longer be on someone's shopping list. What about sub-compacts? We all know the Aveo and G3 are jokes, so until they are replaced with soething worth a damn, we'll lose consumers shopping in the sub-compact market as well. We need the Corsa, right away. Once it gets here, where will it go to? Chevy? Are they going to have an Aveo and a Corsa? Will the Corsa not upstage the Cobalt if both were under the chevy moniker? Does the Corsa (a radically styled sub-compact) fit with Chevy's vanilla image? Will the upscale materials in the Corsa not bump people's expectations of the materials in the rest of Chevy's lineup?

Things we must consider.

[saturnd00d]

Let me add that here in Canada, people buy smaller and more fuel efficient cars as compared to our U.S. friends. Honda and Toyota are huge up here. Pontiac is also pretty popular around here. I see alot of G5's around. Problem is, once Pontiac moves to the niche market, what's to replace it? Cobalt? Well, there must be a reason why people prefer Pontiac's G5 to Chevy's cobalt up here. It's because the Chevy brand itself, is not held in such a high regard up here. You remove the G3 and G5 from Pontiac (something I actually welcome) and you'll lose alot of consumers to Honda and Toyota. This is why I think Saturn should stay. It can be positioned (with better brand awareness and hopefully slightly lower prices) to pick up some more of the import's stronghold on the small car market. For those who don't want to drive chevy cobalts...

My suggestion, move Astra assembly to the U.S., allow them to be assembled for a lower wage (U.S. wage vs. Beligium wage), save cost by not importing, slash a couple grand off MSRP, and I'll bet the Astra would sell loads more than it does right now.

Edited December 3, 2008 by saturnd00d

[Chicagoland]

Well, the Cruze is coming and that platform will be from the next gen Astra. So, the Astra is coming.

"Well, there must be a reason why people prefer Pontiac's G5 to Chevy's cobalt up here"

And, why does CDN have Chevy and Pontiac clones? [since forever, such as Beaumont, Firefly, and Astre] Better get used to buying Chevys, since there is NO difference between G5 and Cobalt. Why f-ing bother? The trying to sell same car at all GM dealers is going away and fast.

"Buick was always upmarket of Olds".

Many Olds buyers during their peak years didn't agree. Maybe before 1959, but here in Chi-town, Olds and Buick competed for similar buyers.

[saturnd00d]

Um, first and foremost, I don't have to get used to buying anything...they have to attract me as a potential buyer. Also, just because the Cruze and the next-gen Astra share a platform, doesn't mean that it is essentially an Astra. The 03-07 ION, the 05+ Cobalt/G5 and the 04+ Astra all shared the same platform, yet the Astra Euro-side was tweaked to offer a sportier ride, and the cobalt and ION essentially rode and handled alike. Goes to show you that there can be differences between cars with the same platform.

As well, look at the current Astra vs the current Cobalt. Astra has a 1.8L ecotec 4 while the cobalt can be had with 2.2, 2.4 and 2.0 T/C. Different cars, that behave quite differently. Consumers like choice, and I would say as of right now, they have it. Take away Saturn (the only other division GM has that offers economical options), and your left with Chevy. Consumers no longer have a choice when it comes down to GM. Smart move.

Let's see where GM is again at the end of '09, when they continue to fail due to the lack of more economical offerings across the board. Let them continue to offer midsized sedans that barely brush the 30's, where they could try to implement new technology into smaller cars and hit the 40's like they did with the S-series.

There would be innovation, but GM doesn't have that in them.

Edited December 3, 2008 by saturnd00d

[vt_hokie]

Of course you want dependability in whatever choice of car you buy, but what I'm getting at, is that GM is losing more and more to the other brands because they offer good, solid small efficient cars and GM doesn't. I mean, the cobalt is a good car and all, but should it be the only good small car that GM offers?

Why would I buy an ugly Cobalt with its rear drum brakes and torsion beam rear suspension when I could get a Mazda 3 for the same price with 4 wheel discs, fully independent suspension, and a more impressive feature list?

[VenSeattle]

Buick has an old fogey image, dated platforms and drivetrains, no touch screen nav or blue tooth or technology that younger buyers are interested in.

smk - The Enclave has nav and bluetooth, and younger people are buying them. There are also folks who need a bigger vehicle.

.

But the LaCrosse and Lucerne don't have those features.

All Buicks offer Bluetooth. In other words, Buick offers Bluetooth on the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave.

All Buicks offer Navigation. In other words, Buick offers Turn-by-Turn Navigation on the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave.

Buick offers DVD Navigation on the Enclave and Lucerne.

Buick's line-up in NA and China will be consolidated/grown into one international line-up. That started with the Enclave and will continue with the NG LaCrosse. Now it looks like Opel's vehicles will be folded into Buick's international line-up. Opel is a mid-tier brand and should make an excellent fit for Buick's volume offerings.

[Camino LS6]

It wouldm't surprise me to see Canada-only Pontiacs continue. Nor would I be surprised to see Opels imported into Canada, rebadges or not.

[saturnd00d]

Why would I buy an ugly Cobalt with its rear drum brakes and torsion beam rear suspension when I could get a Mazda 3 for the same price with 4 wheel discs, fully independent suspension, and a more impressive feature list?

You are echoing my point actually...except on a couple points...

Cobalt being ugly is subjective. I don't find them ugly as much as I find them bland. On the other hand, I would pick an Astra over a Mazda 3. I find it handles better, looks better to me (again subjective to each person), and offers an equally impressive feature list.

This is why I feel GM should step up it's game. Build the Astra stateside to reduce cost of assembly, negate cost of importing and able to lower MSRP to a more competitive level.

As well, this is why I have argued that GM should consolidate Saturn with Cadillac because it can offer people the choice to buy small and economical, but step up the quality. Again, they can utilize Saturn to grab a slice of the VW/MINI/Subaru pie and leave chevy to battle honda, toyota, mazda, etc.

I mean, who would cross-shop Pontiac with VW, Subaru and MINI? Likewise, insert Buick in Pontiac's place. Notice how they both don't target those demographics? So what is GM's answer to those 3? There is none.

You'll have Chevy to battle Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda

Buick to battle Nissan, Mazda

GMC to battle Ford/Nissan/Toyota trucks !?!?!

Pontiac to battle ?BMW I guess? Perhaps Mazda?

Going back to my earlier posts back in the day, GM has too many divisions with too much overlap. Keeping Pontiac beyond anything niche-like is pointless, because they overlap with other GM divisions and other companies alike.

Saturn, I find, would be good to battle slightly upscale cars like VW, Mini and Subaru because each of those have MSRP's higher than their closest competitors in their respective classes, and are held in higher regard in terms of interior materials used, etc. As well, all three are globally known, as is Opel, so people know that the quality is there, and as such, expect to pay more than your average chevrolet.

[hyperv6]

Why would I buy an ugly Cobalt with its rear drum brakes and torsion beam rear suspension when I could get a Mazda 3 for the same price with 4 wheel discs, fully independent suspension, and a more impressive feature list?

Well the Cobalt is at the end of it's life so You won't have it to kick around anymore. Besides in a SS Turbo with rear disc VS 3 the SS kicks its but in all department but looks and those are subjective.

They the way the twist beam axle is good enough for a 8:22 lap at the ring with no drama or undue action from the car. Just check the Video out on Youtube. But the indipendent is on the way in the Cruze any way.

As for looks! Just take a look at the 09 Mazda 3 and I think it with it's grinning front bumper, it is not something even many Mazda fans will even like. It is a shame Mazda just killed a good looking car.

Edited December 4, 2008 by hyperv6

[Oracle of Delphi]

Actually, in an interview a GM exec (LaNeve, IIRC), said that Pontiac would become a niche performance brand for BPG "like Corvette is to Chevy".

Not proof, of course, but more promising than the "grey" language in the plan itself.

Some here can't see the forest for the trees. I love how all of you think GM is still going to give you performance Pontiacs, when their ass is up against the wall, with their hat is in their hand, held out to Uncle Sam. Do you actually think the Congress will hand GM money to build performance Pontiacs?

Let me quote from the plan itself "Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, and GMC represent the company’s core brands, accounting for 83% of current sales. The company will focus substantially all of its product development and marketing resources in support of these brands." I don't see Pontiac mentioned there, so in effect, Pontiac will consist of the G3, G5, and Vibe, that is until sales dwindle so much that not many BPG dealers stock Pontiacs. GM will starve Pontiac of product until it can actually close it down without any legal issues from BPG. GM doesn't have the resources to just come out and close Pontiac down, if you recall, it was a billion plus to close down Olds?

Part of what GM is touting is the Chevy Volt to Congress, what they fail to mention is that the Volt will cost over 40K, in the world of less than two dollar a gallon gasoline which we seem to be back into (I filled up the Big Prix with 93 Octane for $1.98 a gallon today), how many people will fork up that amount of cash in today's economy?

I agree that GM will maintain about 51% interest in Saab, they may even entertain the notion of the Swedish government taking over 49% of Saab.

Besides all of this, Congress is about to give GM's plan the thumbs down, it seems they have been swamped with constituent's Mail/E-Mail who don't want to see the government help the big 3 in any way, shape or form.

As I said deftones, enjoy your Pontiacs while you can!

[Camino LS6]

You conveniently left out the part of the plan that says Pontiac will remain as a niche brand.

It's right after the part you quoted IIRC.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You conveniently left out the part of the plan that says Pontiac will remain as a niche brand.

It's right after the part you quoted IIRC.

A niche brand can mean anything, even a brand of small 4 cylinder fuel efficient vehicles.

[Robert Hall]

A niche brand can mean anything, even a brand of small 4 cylinder fuel efficient vehicles.

Yes, like the G3--rebadged Chevywoo crap (though it doesn't have the 'fuel efficient' aspect).

[VenSeattle]

Besides all of this, Congress is about to give GM's plan the thumbs down, it seems they have been swamped with constituent's Mail/E-Mail who don't want to see the government help the big 3 in any way, shape or form.

In that case... can you elaborate on this "Plan B" that has been mentioned if the government decides not to help out?

[A Horse With No Name]

The scary thing is that if we reduce Pontiac to Solstice and G8, the number of USA built Pontiacs will be less in a month than they built in a day just a short while ago.

Pathetic and sad, methinks...

Chris