GM asks Congress to kickstart its heart with ambitious plan

[A Horse With No Name]

Well, they would have to have distinct sheetmetal and interiors...like the Traverse and Enclave, Nox and Vue, Impala and LaCrosse, Malibu and '10 LaCrosse. Nothing wrong w/ platform sharing, with sufficient brand-specific differentiation.

+1

Chris

[Chicagoland]

"3-lastly is the lingering racial profiling that those nice quiet Asians sit and work diligently after years and years of all those math and science classes, now they toil endlessly using their quiet little scientist minds to make and build sht for us holier than thou Americans. Whatever they make must be perfect, because that's all those people do.....sit and study and overwork because they are fanatically studious just exist to build our sht."

I agree, and these same people, usually upper class whites, will not socialize with Asians or other races and make fun of them behind thier backs. Oh an dof course, if one is good at math/science in a typical burb, they are 'uncool, have no life, and will never have sex'. $@$@$ THEM!

The other exepctation is that if Motown 3 go away, then suddenly "smog will disappear", and global warming will 'cool'. :P:P As if the smog over LA is only from US cars, and imports have steam from exhaust pipes.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Chicagoland

[A Horse With No Name]

I don't know about steam from exhaust pipes but there is a lot of hot air surrounding certain Asian cars...

Chris

[Chicagoland]

Well, what makes me mad is the Calif greenies put blame for smog soley on Detroit, and out there 70% of cars are imports! The rich F-ks in Beemers and Benzes are certainly not innocent in making smog.

And, why the hell do they keep building these huge subdivisions in Calif?? If they built more mass trasnit, they'd have less smog and more open land, trees, what not. They are such hypocrites.

[CSpec]

Sorry I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, but I've been watching a lot of the footage of the Senate committee meeting, and I have to say big respect to Sen Dodd and all the other senators frankly for taking this issue very seriously and taking the time to study all the possible ramifications and possible solutions at hand. He had some very strong words for Pres Bush's complete lack of action or even willingness to listen to anything the automakers say when clearly this is a huge issue and there isn't really time to wait for Jan 20th.

[CARBIZ]

Why would I buy an ugly Cobalt with its rear drum brakes and torsion beam rear suspension when I could get a Mazda 3 for the same price with 4 wheel discs, fully independent suspension, and a more impressive feature list?

... ah, to save your job?

'ugly' is a subjective term. Frankly, the '09 LT2 Cobalt is quite handsome, with the chrome door handles, spoiler, 16" wheels, etc. Perhaps you prefer a $800 brake job over a $600 one. You do live in Canada, don't you? Salt spray on the rear discs is soooo much fun - forget about longevity. Rear discs are a marketer's dream, my friend. Necessary on a Viper, not so much of a compact car.

It's what GM versus Mazda have chosen to spend their money on. Every time I seen a clown with a Mazda 3 driving in my underground garage with no lights on (and nearly getting hit as he goes around the corner), I just laugh. Drive the GX Mazda 3 - it's no picnic either.

And the Mazda 3 is NOT the same price. Not in Ontario, at least.

[A Horse With No Name]

+1 on the Cobalt being a good looking car. I've been working upstairs in a few downtown buildings, and watching Cobalts drive by in traffic.

Other than niche cars like the MINI or 1 series BMW, there isn't a whole lot available today that's really better looking.

Chris

[CARBIZ]

Sales don't matter, only profit does. GM has to figure out a way to keep the lights on and make payroll. Bankruptcy is 4 weeks away, anything that isn't essential and unique needs to be cut.

When sifting through the hyperbole and that sells newspapers, there are really only two points that count: 1) we are about to slip into a depression of which the world has never seen or 2) the American economy will come roaring back in 4-6 months (the average length of a recession that already started 12 months ago by some accounts.)

In scenario 1: GM's future won't matter much. With 2 or 3 generations of lazy, fat people who have never gone without or done without suddenly faced with joblessness, homelessness and hopelessness, there will be a revolution that will make the the upheavals of the '60s look like a Church picnic.

In scenario 2: GM needs cash to weather the next 6 months to enjoy the upswing of the economy and the pent-up demand of consumers who have been delaying vehicle purchases due to uncertainty in the economy. Any loan 'guarantees' handed over by Congress in the next 2 months could easily be paid back within 2 or 3 years as the economy corrects itself. It's a pendulum, really, and for the past 12 months in the U.S. (in Canada just starting now), the pendulum has swung into the negative, it has probably stopped and will start swinging into the positive within a few months.

From what I can see, there are literally thousands of companies and millions of people in the same boat, so to speak, as GM. Our entire economy is constipated like we haven't seen in a few generations. Older people are haunted by what their parents lived through and younger people are bewildered by the extent of the damage. Nobody is spending anything unless they have to.

Regardless, it's not like people will stop buying cars over the long term. With the US population over 300 million, a 20 million car market is only a short time away. Detroit only has to promise whatever it takes to get from here to there. The short term pain of their demise would be great, to be sure, but I am far more concerned of the long term damage to North American prestige and future technical abilities if Detroit is gone.

This could be a great opportunity for Detroit to clear out its arteries to be ready to hit the ground running in 6 months.

[A Horse With No Name]

Sorry I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, but I've been watching a lot of the footage of the Senate committee meeting, and I have to say big respect to Sen Dodd and all the other senators frankly for taking this issue very seriously and taking the time to study all the possible ramifications and possible solutions at hand. He had some very strong words for Pres Bush's complete lack of action or even willingness to listen to anything the automakers say when clearly this is a huge issue and there isn't really time to wait for Jan 20th.

[/quote

That Dodd is a democrat from Ohio is just icing on the cake for me. Although to be fair, republican Voinovich is also for the bailout.

Chris

[Robert Hall]

Sorry I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, but I've been watching a lot of the footage of the Senate committee meeting, and I have to say big respect to Sen Dodd and all the other senators frankly for taking this issue very seriously and taking the time to study all the possible ramifications and possible solutions at hand. He had some very strong words for Pres Bush's complete lack of action or even willingness to listen to anything the automakers say when clearly this is a huge issue and there isn't really time to wait for Jan 20th.

That Dodd is a democrat from Ohio is just icing on the cake for me. Although to be fair, republican Voinovich is also for the bailout.

Chris

Isn't Dodd a Democrat from Connecticut?

[Chicagoland]

"Why would I buy an ugly Cobalt with its rear drum brakes and torsion beam rear suspension when I could get a Mazda 3 for the same price with 4 wheel discs, fully independent suspension, and a more impressive feature list?"

Hmm, the Corolla and Civic have rear drum brakes, and the Toyota still has a 4 speed automatic! Shows the bias buls%t out there.

Oh and one more thing, the Cobalt SS beat the Mazdaspeed 3 in a test in Road and Track, who I think is way better than Car/Drivel. And M3 wagon is a heavy gas hog for its size, too and ugly.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Chicagoland

[I hope GMRULES again]

I actually watched 3 hours of this on the internet today at work and found it interesting. Wagoner isn't a very good speaker, he studders when he answers. I've always heard a lot of bad things about Nardelli and his past at Home Depot but I can say this guy knows his stuff about the auto industry. He was the best speaker of all of them.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Later on CNN had Wagoner on and he wasn't much better. He tries his best to dance around the questions. Wolf asked him what was GM's biggest mistake and instead of dancing he should of just said we built a lot of crappy cars in the 80's and 90's, we lost a lot of customers but we've made great progress in the last few years and we just need a bridge loan to get us through these economic tough times.

[CARBIZ]

Later on CNN had Wagoner on and he wasn't much better. He tries his best to dance around the questions. Wolf asked him what was GM's biggest mistake and instead of dancing he should of just said we built a lot of crappy cars in the 80's and 90's, we lost a lot of customers but we've made great progress in the last few years and we just need a bridge loan to get us through these economic tough times.

I don't think you'd last very long on a Board.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Probably not but Wagoner would be great on dancing with the stars.

[regfootball]

Well, what makes me mad is the Calif greenies put blame for smog soley on Detroit, and out there 70% of cars are imports! The rich F-ks in Beemers and Benzes are certainly not innocent in making smog.

And, why the hell do they keep building these huge subdivisions in Calif?? If they built more mass trasnit, they'd have less smog and more open land, trees, what not. They are such hypocrites.

californians seem to forget that their lifestyle (excessively long commutes, excess lifestyles) contribute a lot to their car problems that they want the other 49 to pay for and solve.

stop crying about smog if you're all driving BMW's. Stop complaining about green and mpg when you all drive audis and mercedes on you 70 mile commutes.

[The O.C.]

And, why the hell do they keep building these huge subdivisions in Calif?? If they built more mass trasnit, they'd have less smog and more open land, trees, what not. They are such hypocrites.

You need to better understand California (and more specifically southern California.)

BMWs and Mercedes-Benzs don't contribute any more to the smog problem than any other type of car. Fact of the matter is...there is a significant population in southern California....for right or for wrong....well over 17MM people. There will inevitably be factors such as traffic and pollution as a result.

Secondly, apparently you are unaware of how much "open land" is scattered around southern California. You can thank the various mountain and hill ranges that are spread around within the urban areas.

Thirdly, effective mass transit in southern California is something that is very difficult to achieve when you have an urban area that could emcompass probably at least two entire metro Chicago areas.

People don't always have a choice when it comes to a long commute. They have to have jobs....yet have to live where they can afford to live. That may dictate a significant commuting distance somewhere like in southern California where homes 1-2 hours' drive inland are so much less expensive than homes nearer the coast (where most of the corporations choose to locate their offices.)

Finally, people don't just commute from the suburbs to downtown L.A. There are so many different business districts around all of southern California....one (or just a few) consistent commuting pattern(s) is impossible in southern California. In fact, I read a statistic one time that more L.A. county residents commuted to suburban Orange County to work...than they actually commuted to downtown L.A.

Edited December 5, 2008 by The O.C.

[Camino LS6]

You need to better understand California (and more specifically southern California.)

BMWs and Mercedes-Benzs don't contribute any more to the smog problem than any other type of car. Fact of the matter is...there is a significant population in southern California....for right or for wrong....well over 17MM people. There will inevitably be factors such as traffic and pollution as a result.

Secondly, apparently you are unaware of how much "open land" is scattered around southern California. You can thank the various mountain and hill ranges that are spread around within the urban areas.

Thirdly, effective mass transit in southern California is something that is very difficult to achieve when you have an urban area that could emcompass probably at least two entire metro Chicago areas.

People don't always have a choice when it comes to a long commute. They have to have jobs....yet have to live where they can afford to live. That may dictate a significant commuting distance somewhere like in southern California where homes 1-2 hours' drive inland are so much less expensive than homes nearer the coast (where most of the corporations choose to locate their offices.)

Finally, people don't just commute from the suburbs to downtown L.A. There are so many different business districts around all of southern California....one (or just a few) consistent commuting pattern(s) is impossible in southern California. In fact, I read a statistic one time that more L.A. county residents commuted to suburban Orange County to work...than they actually commuted to downtown L.A.

Having been (and driven) there, I can't really disagree.

But I do have to say that it qualifies as the most illogical place that I have ever been layoutwise.

Just nuts.

[Robert Hall]

From what I've read, a big factor in the LA smog is the fact that it's in a basin..leads to air inversions. Phoenix has a similar problem, on a smaller scale. Lots of sprawl also.

[Chicagoland]

That's the whole point, California builds huge sprawl, then complains, and expects the whole country to give them 'help'.

Also, the upper class 'have to move further out from those people', then complain about long commutes, traffic, services, and say they 'have no choice'.

Also, the CA greenies have been saying 'it's up to Detroit to solve air pollution and global warming'. yet, these same people would refuse to buy a 'green' domestic car. [From some stupid excuse like "interior feel"] Why dont they point fingers at Asia? What about all the import SUV's? They mostly drive imports, but blame their own problems solely on 'Detroit'.

If Detroit is diminished, who will they blame for smog and traffic? If China starts importing, greenies will find them tough to deal with on issues. Id like to see them go there and try to protest.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Chicagoland

[Robert Hall]

That's the whole point, California builds huge sprawl, then complains, and expects the whole country to give them 'help'.

Also, the upper class 'have to move further out from those people', then complain about long commutes, traffic, services, and say they 'have no choice'.

It's not just California, though....sprawl is a nationwide phenomenon..exurbs have been a trend in the US for years. 'Edge City' is a great book that analyses the phenomenon.

Edited December 5, 2008 by moltar

[pow]

californians seem to forget that their lifestyle (excessively long commutes, excess lifestyles) contribute a lot to their car problems that they want the other 49 to pay for and solve.

stop crying about smog if you're all driving BMW's. Stop complaining about green and mpg when you all drive audis and mercedes on you 70 mile commutes.

The sort of people who whine and complain about emissions and sprawl in California are certainly not the ones driving BMWs or Audis or "import SUVs."

No, they are the ones who want to see the total elimination of the automobile and are disgusted and embarrassed by the concept of an automobile-based city like Los Angeles. They listen to people like Chicagoland, and then say, "See, we should only have anti-sprawl city centers, bustling downtowns, walkable communities, narrow streets, community farms, and lofts. Cars are evil."

Edited December 5, 2008 by empowah

[regfootball]

The sort of people who whine and complain about emissions and sprawl in California are certainly not the ones driving BMWs or Audis or "import SUVs."

No, they are the ones who want to see the total elimination of the automobile and are disgusted and embarrassed by the concept of an automobile-based city like Los Angeles. They listen to people like Chicagoland, and then say, "See, we should only have anti-sprawl city centers, bustling downtowns, walkable communities, narrow streets, community farms, and lofts. Cars are evil."

well they are just overly vocal then.

it's kind of like 'who killed the electric car'. i finally watched that the other day. You'd swear that by the tone of the movie, California is all that mattered, and the only car people want or need is a 2 seat electric car.

but, they have the pulpit.

what if you are a farmer living in the cold tundra of north dakota and have 4 kids and you need to tow a trailer. that EV1 is useless to you.

my basic point is for all that 'california' complains about its air quality and things needing to be done, to me, its partially a product of their own behavior.

The walkable communities types are clueless about things like taking your crying and hurting kid into emergency room at 2 am on a cold winter night. Like that is a situation where mass transit or walkable community is helpful?

electric cars as they said in the movie, need to have 300 mile range and 5 minute refuel in order to be the 100% solution. The 90% solution is not enough for everyone to invest in.

[trinacriabob]

The first and foremost thing should be that the vehicles are of high quality and will always be engineered as if $ 1.69 is in the rear-view mirror. That means HIGH MPG and bringing on the juice (electricity).

Ok, having lost Oldsmobile, which i accepted even though it meant losing the Intrigue, keeping the cars at Chevy-Buick-Cadillac is ok with me. It mirrors what's going on at Ford. There should also only be one truck division. Everything else needs to go. Having Pontiac as a "niche" will be interesting, with the Eurasian imports (Opel stuff, the Japanese stuff) coming in through this venue (who knows?)...where will the outlets for Pontiac be?

[trinacriabob]

'Edge City' is a great book that analyses the phenomenon.

I've always been on the edge!

Seriously, I hate the downtown cores of cities, always having lived in Bellevue (SEA), Dunwoody (ATL), Roseville (SAC) and never where the bohemian dorks live. If I had remained in LA, it would have been Woodland Hills or Orange County. Bring on the rail and I will use it. I do now.

[Robert Hall]

I've always been on the edge!

Seriously, I hate the downtown cores of cities, always having lived in Bellevue (SEA), Dunwoody (ATL), Roseville (SAC) and never where the bohemian dorks live. If I had remained in LA, it would have been Woodland Hills or Orange County. Bring on the rail and I will use it. I do now.

I've lived in downtown cores and in outer burbs, I like the burbs more, but often go downtown for dining, sports, culture, etc. When I was in Denver, I lived downtown (LoDo) for 3 years in a loft, enjoyed it quite a bit, but then moved out to Greenwood Village, a suburb right on the light rail...took the rail downtown whenever I wanted to go to attractions downtown. And after I moved, my job moved to within a mile of me, walked to work for a while. Most of my friends are out in the burbs. I love being close to the suburban things like Target, etc..and in some of the burbs, there are great dining choices. If I move back to Denver, I'll eventually move further out in the burbs, but stay close to the light rail, and no more than 30 min from the airport, but have more square footage (my condo downtown was 1000 sq ft, mine in the burbs is 1250 sq ft, I want my next purchase to be a house in the 3000-3500sq ft range w/ a 3 car garage and basement)...

On the other hand, here in Phoenix I'm in a nice older neighborhood in the city about 7 miles north of downtown. I work downtown, so it's an easy drive on surface streets down there. I don't go out in the burbs much, too dull, and everything I need is here in the city (Targets, PetSmart, Borders, lots of restuarants).

[buzzphillips]

GM needs to restructure and come through it with Cadillac and Chevrolet, a new BOD, CEO and shed its absurd Union with their demands. To do other wise means the Asian brands will continue to eat them alive! Saturn has yet to make its first nickle!. They need state of the art designs, economy and driveability (have you driven a Honda lately!). Its foolish to think that they have "caught up"

(pushrods anyone?) and that buyers will be attracted to products that suffer massive depreciation compared to foreign brands. God save the tax payers!

[Chicagoland]

Nothing wrong with pushrod V8's for Vettes, trucks, and Camaro. Honda killed their V-10 NSX.

But for mainstream cars, GM has made great advances. People still assume that the Cutlass Ciera is still in production.

[CARBIZ]

GM needs to restructure and come through it with Cadillac and Chevrolet, a new BOD, CEO and shed its absurd Union with their demands. To do other wise means the Asian brands will continue to eat them alive! Saturn has yet to make its first nickle!. They need state of the art designs, economy and driveability (have you driven a Honda lately!). Its foolish to think that they have "caught up"

(pushrods anyone?) and that buyers will be attracted to products that suffer massive depreciation compared to foreign brands. God save the tax payers!

Push rod engines? Stop drinking the bong water before you post!

And I have driven a Honda lately: not impressed. In fact, Honda is where GM was 15 years ago: resting on its laurels. Honda has been decontenting its vehicles like crazy to squeeze every dime out of them. Or why is the 4 cylinder Accord significantly noisier than the Malibu, to name just one example?

God save the sheeple that can't look beyond the headlines!