Which comes first?

[Charger4U]

Does your viewpoint on whether or not GM should get a bailout have to do with your love for GM products or do you truly think it will be better for the automobile sector and the economy of 300+ million people?

I still havent heard all the sides but im leaning to letting the private enterprise deal with its problems with private enterprise funds. What about yourself?

Edited December 1, 2008 by Charger4U

[loki]

isn't the old addidge "as gm goes so does the economy"...

it's alittle less now.. but still heavily intertwined.

[Robert Hall]

isn't the old addidge "as gm goes so does the economy"...

it's alittle less now.. but still heavily intertwined.

Yes.... 'what's good for GM is good for the country' or something like that.

[gmpartsgirl]

This country can't afford for GM to go down. As nice as it would be for them to get out from under the Union possibly, by filing bankruptcy, they can't even do that because they would bankrupt all their suppliers. The trickle down effect would be horrid. We have to bail them out and then do some serious house cleaning at the top. Fire them all, all the bigwigs. Thats a start.

[Charger4U]

isn't the old addidge "as gm goes so does the economy"...

it's alittle less now.. but still heavily intertwined.

How do you figure? There are a lot more companies heavily intertwined with the fiscal life of an American than General Motors?

Edited December 1, 2008 by Charger4U

[gmpartsgirl]

Alot of that stuff about GM and the economy doesn't hold as much water as it once did, but nevertheless, the impact on suppliers and the dealer network alone would be devastating, and the towns dependent on the factories and parts plants could be all but wiped out.

[daves87rs]

Alot of that stuff about GM and the economy doesn't hold as much water as it once did, but nevertheless, the impact on suppliers and the dealer network alone would be devastating, and the towns dependent on the factories and parts plants could be all but wiped out.

Well, the rust belt would be gone....

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

As I've said on this website before...

My loyalty lies with GM, my community and those that serve this country. Not this country as it stands. I choose not to fly the flag and I choose not to vote. I won't go as far as disrespecting the flag (yet) for fear of offending those that sacrificed for it.

If GM is saved, then so to will be the workers that depend on them.

I refuse to support a society that promotes greed, and self worth above honesty and integrity. Just as I refuse to support a society that shepards the destruction of it's soul for the benefit of other societies that do not share the same goal of 'prosperity for all'.

Edited December 1, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[ZL-1]

The economy is more important than GM or any other company taken individually. The issue of bailout money has to do with GM's political weight as a large employer in the US.

[Drew Dowdell]

Does your viewpoint on whether or not GM should get a bailout have to do with your love for GM products or do you truly think it will be better for the automobile sector and the economy of 300+ million people?

I still havent heard all the sides but im leaning to letting the private enterprise deal with its problems with private enterprise funds. What about yourself?

We're well past the point of "the private enterprise deal with its problems with private enterprise funds". Citibank's primary purpose is to move paper around and they've shown they aren't even any good at that, yet they got $30 billion and federal backing for another $300 billion in assets. They broke basic rules of accounting and basic rules of lending due to unbridled greed. GM's biggest offence is skimping on the interior plastics that automotive magazine editors wipe their hemeroids on and trying to fulfill the contractual labor obligations they agreed to in a different business climate.

[Intrepidation]

Screw the financial instructions. They are the ones mainly responsible for the economic mess in tghe first place with their shady lending practices. The government is happy to lend our money to them without demands for a plan to show how these institutions will fix their problems and not let it happen again, there's no paycut demand, and they still go on $200,000+ vacations.

Meanwhile, the automakers want a small chunk of that $700 billion dollar loan to split amongst the 3 companies so they can survive. The banks just move paper around, the automakers employ and benefit millions of hard working middle-class people, and they actually build something. We loose them, not only do we loose millions of jobs but the ability to build anything, which means no way to build defense vehicles for the military should a large conflict occur.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Screw the financial instructions. They are the ones mainly responsible for the economic mess in tghe first place with their shady lending practices. The government is happy to lend our money to them without demands for a plan to show how these institutions will fix their problems and not let it happen again, there's no paycut demand, and they still go on $200,000+ vacations.

Meanwhile, the automakers want a small chunk of that $700 billion dollar loan to split amongst the 3 companies so they can survive. The banks just move paper around, the automakers employ and benefit millions of hard working middle-class people, and they actually build something. We loose them, not only do we loose millions of jobs but the ability to build anything, which means no way to build defense vehicles for the military should a large conflict occur.

But remember!!!

Just like the global economy cannot fail, the global economy will prevent major conflicts! And everyone will live in a field of daisies and not have to work.

Oh, wait, nevermind....

Edited December 1, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

10% of all American jobs are tied directly, or indirectly to the automotive industry.

Question answered.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Maybe all of those people can get jobs in a gun factory, because we're going to need lots of those if things keep going the way they're going.

(We can fight the impending invasion on foot, old skool brit style... You know, since we won't have an auto industry... Or very little other manufacturing)

[Robert Hall]

Maybe all of those people can get jobs in a gun factory, because we're going to need lots of those if things keep going the way they're going.

Do they still make that sh*t here, or is it all imported from China?

[daves87rs]

Do they still make that sh*t here, or is it all imported from China?

man, I hope not....what if it backfires?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

man, I hope not....what if it backfires?

(Special thanks to Sin City for the picture )

[Charger4U]

10% of all American jobs are tied directly, or indirectly to the automotive industry.

Question answered.

doubt it, wheres your source?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

doubt it, wheres your source?

http://www.theengineofdemocracy.com

Edited December 3, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Intrepidation]

pwnt.

Seriously dude, why are you so much more in favor of sending several hundred billion dollars over to the banks who get us into this mess in the first place? So they can continue to get paid ridiculous amounts of money? Or maybe to fund that vacation they wanted to take? Maybe fund more bad loans?

What the automakers are asking for is 1.) a f**kiing loan 2.) A drop in the bucket compared to what the paper pushers are being handed out (without demand for a recovery plan, paycuts for execs and so on) and 3.) Would go to companies who actually build something, not just move paper and money around, and employ millions of hard working people, giving them a shot at living a decent life.

[Camino LS6]

In the late 70's it was 1 in 7 jobs in the US.

Without this industry, we become a has been, 2nd tier nation.

Make a choice.

[Robert Hall]

In the late 70's it was 1 in 7 jobs in the US.

Without this industry, we become a has been, 2nd tier nation.

Make a choice.

I wonder what the numbers are now, though. 1 in 20 jobs? 1 in 50?

[Camino LS6]

I wonder what the numbers are now, though. 1 in 20 jobs? 1 in 50?

See above posts!

It is currently 1 in 10, enough to create a depression if we lose them.

[Charger4U]

pwnt.

Seriously dude, why are you so much more in favor of sending several hundred billion dollars over to the banks who get us into this mess in the first place? So they can continue to get paid ridiculous amounts of money? Or maybe to fund that vacation they wanted to take? Maybe fund more bad loans?

What the automakers are asking for is 1.) a f**kiing loan 2.) A drop in the bucket compared to what the paper pushers are being handed out (without demand for a recovery plan, paycuts for execs and so on) and 3.) Would go to companies who actually build something, not just move paper and money around, and employ millions of hard working people, giving them a shot at living a decent life.

Dont be confused and start accusing me of things i never said example "the paper pushers deserve it more". And as far as pwnt? WTF? I said "doubt it" but asked where your source is so i could find more info, next time ill make sure im more ignorant and my opinion is set in stone. Sorry i asked C&G for the reasons for the support of the loan to GM.

pwnt

[Intrepidation]

Dont be confused and start accusing me of things i never said example "the paper pushers deserve it more". And as far as pwnt? WTF? I said "doubt it" but asked where your source is so i could find more info, next time ill make sure im more ignorant and my opinion is set in stone. Sorry i asked C&G for the reasons for the support of the loan to GM.

Sorry dude, I guess it's just the way your words came across to me. It's just so frustrating that so many people seem to think that it's alright to bail out the banks, who are the main reason for the economic mess we are in, who aren't being demanded to cut salaries, restructure, or anything, but the automakers are unworthy of a small chunk of that money to survive the economic downturn. So many people seem to think that it's there own fault and caught up on stereotypes of 20 years ago, thinking they still apply today (this includes Congress). Not saying that you view it that way, just frustration mistakenly vented at you.

Didn't mean to go off on you like that, so my apologies.

[Charger4U]

Sorry dude, I guess it's just the way your words came across to me. It's just so frustrating that so many people seem to think that it's alright to bail out the banks, who are the main reason for the economic mess we are in, who aren't being demanded to cut salaries, restructure, or anything, but the automakers are unworthy of a small chunk of that money to survive the economic downturn. So many people seem to think that it's there own fault and caught up on stereotypes of 20 years ago, thinking they still apply today (this includes Congress). Not saying that you view it that way, just frustration mistakenly vented at you.

Didn't mean to go off on you like that, so my apologies.

Its cool i figured that was what happened haha. Anyway, How do you figure GM didnt do it to themselves? UAW workers are payed way to much, im all for making a buck, but putting parts on a car should not be that of a high paying of a job. What do you think about that? Once again open to all viewpoints.

[Drew Dowdell]

Its cool i figured that was what happened haha. Anyway, How do you figure GM didnt do it to themselves? UAW workers are payed way to much, im all for making a buck, but putting parts on a car should not be that of a high paying of a job. What do you think about that? Once again open to all viewpoints.

It's not the current employees, it's the retirees and the people in the jobs bank.

Active worker for active worker, GM and Toyota pay about the same.

[Intrepidation]

Its cool i figured that was what happened haha. Anyway, How do you figure GM didnt do it to themselves? UAW workers are payed way to much, im all for making a buck, but putting parts on a car should not be that of a high paying of a job. What do you think about that? Once again open to all viewpoints.

Well granted they have made mistakes, there's no getting around that. The UAW thing...they did negotiate concessions during the last contract, but obviously it was not enough. They may make more than a non-union plat, I don't know either, but I think it's the legacy costs such as healthcare (especially to the thousands of retired employees) and the job bank that drags them down. Problem is that it's hard for GM and the rest of Detroit to negotiate more concessions because the UAW is only willing to give up so much (deserved or not), and they can and do strike if they aren't happy.

I certainly think they should be paid enough to make a living, as it is still a lot of work, even if it's routine...it's way more work than any banker ever does.

However the bigger issue, especially with Congress and a lot of people, is they ignore the economical cars, the much improved quality and reliability and so on. They accuse Detroit of building gas guzzling, unreliable trucks when people were buying them, yet ignore the fact that other companies like Toyota and Nissan jumped on the bandwagon too. They think that Detroit still only builds gas guzzlers. Sure, Detroit does have some blame, as they should have put equal emphasis on cars and trucks, but they are now and have been for several year, yet it's ignored.

That's my :twocents:

[Charger4U]

Well granted they have made mistakes, there's no getting around that. The UAW thing...they did negotiate concessions during the last contract, but obviously it was not enough. They may make more than a non-union plat, I don't know either, but I think it's the legacy costs such as healthcare (especially to the thousands of retired employees) and the job bank that drags them down. Problem is that it's hard for GM and the rest of Detroit to negotiate more concessions because the UAW is only willing to give up so much (deserved or not), and they can and do strike if they aren't happy.

I certainly think they should be paid enough to make a living, as it is still a lot of work, even if it's routine...it's way more work than any banker ever does.

However the bigger issue, especially with Congress and a lot of people, is they ignore the economical cars, the much improved quality and reliability and so on. They accuse Detroit of building gas guzzling, unreliable trucks when people were buying them, yet ignore the fact that other companies like Toyota and Nissan jumped on the bandwagon too. They think that Detroit still only builds gas guzzlers. Sure, Detroit does have some blame, as they should have put equal emphasis on cars and trucks, but they are now and have been for several year, yet it's ignored.

That's my :twocents:

Thanks i just had to ask, as you had accused the paper pushers of making too much.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Charger4U

[Intrepidation]

Thanks i just had to ask, as you had accused the paper pushers of making too much.

I think the higher-ups in the banks are grossly overpaid. There is mental skill involved dealing with a lot of money and numbers, but as we've seen, they've been doing it very poorly, or very well to benefit themselves and screw over the res of us. Case in point for overpaid: The CEO of Citigroup apparently has made over 200 million so far this year, whereas the combined yearly salaries of the Big 3's CEO's is less than million.

[gmpartsgirl]

Well the trickle down effect has already begun. Despite gas prices our sales are horrible. Even though Service and parts is doing admirable sales, the whole dealership is making cuts, just fired a few managers and today I got a paycut. Pretty bad timing for me considering the recent divorce. Theres rumor that Sonic Corp is going to shut down one of our biggest Chevy dealers and a redundant Nissan dealer that should've never existed in the first place. I know my dealer will survive because of our size and location, I just hope we don't go bankrupt individually before things get better. My pay had already gone down due to I'm commission. The fate of the Silverado is sketchy right now. May have to sell it and share the Cutty with the boy to save money. All of this couldn't have come at a worse time for me, seriously. I just chewed the ex's ass off. LOL Guess the boy's gonna have to get a job and I'll have to get a 2nd job. I don't wanna sell my new baby or my house. Sigh.

[CARBIZ]

...partsgirl, I feel your pain. I've made about HALF of what I did last year, although changing dealerships has had a lot to do with it.

I keep telling myself that we just gotta make it through to the 3rd quarter of '09, but the way I am burning up my savings, I dunno. It's pretty grim.

There are dealers that didn't even deliver 20 new cars last month.

[gmpartsgirl]

Yeah we're not quite that bad, but what pisses me off the most was 5 minutes after they told me, our GM walks back and is talking to the service manager about hacking parts prices and labor on an RO for a buddy of his!! WTF?! What a slap in the face! Bastard!

[Camino LS6]

Well the trickle down effect has already begun. Despite gas prices our sales are horrible. Even though Service and parts is doing admirable sales, the whole dealership is making cuts, just fired a few managers and today I got a paycut. Pretty bad timing for me considering the recent divorce. Theres rumor that Sonic Corp is going to shut down one of our biggest Chevy dealers and a redundant Nissan dealer that should've never existed in the first place. I know my dealer will survive because of our size and location, I just hope we don't go bankrupt individually before things get better. My pay had already gone down due to I'm commission. The fate of the Silverado is sketchy right now. May have to sell it and share the Cutty with the boy to save money. All of this couldn't have come at a worse time for me, seriously. I just chewed the ex's ass off. LOL Guess the boy's gonna have to get a job and I'll have to get a 2nd job. I don't wanna sell my new baby or my house. Sigh.

We have to learn to help each other out these days.

Some of us here buy lots of GM parts...

[gmpartsgirl]

Yeah and I don't about the other dealers, but we're selling parts at whatever we have to to make the sale, anything is better than nothing.