GM Studies Killing Saab, Saturn, Pontiac

[Oracle of Delphi]

Automotive News

November 26, 2008 - 6:32 pm ET

DETROIT -- General Motors is studying the idea of killing the Saab, Saturn and Pontiac brands as it seeks U.S. rescue loans, Bloomberg News reported today.

Bloomberg cited unnamed sources.

A GM spokesman declined comment, the news service said. The automaker is preparing to submit a detailed turnaround plan to Congress on Tuesday, followed by hearings next week in its quest for a federal loan to avert a cash shortage.

GM already has said it may sell Hummer.

GM's board will meet Sunday and Monday, both regularly scheduled meetings, to review the plan to be presented to Congress, Bloomberg said. Only a small portion of that plan will be made public.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20081126/A...paign_id=alerts

Link to Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=amIqBBYGRh5Q

Edited November 27, 2008 by Pontiac Custom-S

[gmcbob]

How can they kill just Pontiac if they're now integrated into the Buick and GMC brands too?

IMHO, I still think this "too many brands" idea that our so called "experts" who "analyze" the auto industry keep harping on is just totally stupid. I think GM needs to take advantage of the brands they do have and just go gangbusters making each one of them really bad ass - like they used to be in the 60s.

Pontiac's would sell like gangbusters if they had a really cool rear drive sedan based off the CTS platform that was priced correctly - a sedan and a coupe (with current Pontiac styling). I also think GM should have two North American versions of the Commodore - the G8 and the Buick Park Avenue from China - they'd get much more return on their investment that way. And while I'm on the subject of Buick, whatever happened to that really nice convertible concept car from a few years back? Now that should be coming out along with the Camaro, again, they'd get a much better return on their investment. And as far as having a gas mileage car for the PBG group, why not have a Pontiac version of the Astra in there too (instead of the Cobalt)? It's a nicer car that I think would suit the Pontiac lineup pretty well.

[Drew Dowdell]

Saturn - yes

Saab - sell it

Pontiac - no

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

This is pretty status quo...

From what I understand, GM regularly re-assesses the value of it's divisions.

And you'd better believe they're probably running assessments on all of the brands except Chevrolet and Cadillac right now. Hell, they might even be assessing the viability of Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success.

If I had to choose I'd eliminate divisions in this order:

1st Hummer

2nd Saab

3rd Saturn

4th Pontiac

I guess the current idea is to have Chevrolet as the volume division, Buick/GMC as the mid level franchise and Cadillac as the global luxury player.

I don't really see the point of Saturn being on that list since it is essentially Opel. But then again, Buick could easily BECOME Opel in the future.

I really pray that GM isn't going to close any of it's equitable and historic divisions.

Edited November 27, 2008 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM’s eight U.S. brands are the most among the domestic automakers, compared with four at Ford Motor Co. and three at Chrysler LLC. The Hummer sport-utility vehicle unit was put on the block in June. GM agreed to eliminate the 103-year-old Oldsmobile brand in 2000 because of declining sales.

Wouldn't Ford have 5?

GM has 1,071 outlets for Pontiac,

Which are also paired with other franchises, mostly GMC and Buick, so what would be the point?

This year, Pontiac sales are down 21 percent, compared with a 15 percent industrywide decline through October.

GM established the Saturn brand in 1985, five years before selling the first vehicle. Most of the U.S. dealers are stand alone, according to GM. Sales reached a peak in 1994 at 286,003 units, according to Autodata Corp. in Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey. This year’s deliveries are down 19 percent.

So... Saturn has an all new line up, yet Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars and Chevrolet clones and sales are down roughly the same amount at each division?!?! Gee, that's a hard decision to make. But it's a logical decision and we all know that GM doesn't do too well with those.

GM made its initial investment in Sweden’s Saab in 1990 and took full control in 2000. Its sales climbed to a record 47,914 in 2003. In 2008, they’re down 31 percent through October.

REPEAT AFTER ME: BLACK HOLE.... CUT THE LOSSES.... SEND ALL OF THE FUTURE SAAB PRODUCTS TO SATURN

[smk4565]

How can they kill just Pontiac if they're now integrated into the Buick and GMC brands too?

IMHO, I still think this "too many brands" idea that our so called "experts" who "analyze" the auto industry keep harping on is just totally stupid. I think GM needs to take advantage of the brands they do have and just go gangbusters making each one of them really bad ass - like they used to be in the 60s.

Pontiac's would sell like gangbusters if they had a really cool rear drive sedan based off the CTS platform that was priced correctly - a sedan and a coupe (with current Pontiac styling). I also think GM should have two North American versions of the Commodore - the G8 and the Buick Park Avenue from China - they'd get much more return on their investment that way. And while I'm on the subject of Buick, whatever happened to that really nice convertible concept car from a few years back? Now that should be coming out along with the Camaro, again, they'd get a much better return on their investment. And as far as having a gas mileage car for the PBG group, why not have a Pontiac version of the Astra in there too (instead of the Cobalt)? It's a nicer car that I think would suit the Pontiac lineup pretty well.

GM had 50% market share in 1960, they have 19% now and have added Hummer, Saab, Saturn (killed Olds) since then. They can't fund 8 brands to make them bad ass with 19% market share.

The Sigma platform is too expensive for anything that doesn't carry a Cadillac price tag. Astra is a money loser because of exchange rate, and they have a near 400 day supply on dealer lots, it is GM's slowest selling product. The Vellite was a cool looking concept, but GM doesn't have the money to make it, and a $40-45k Buick convertible probably won't sell in volume.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

GM had 50% market share in 1960, they have 19% now and have added Hummer, Saab, Saturn (killed Olds) since then. They can't fund 8 brands to make them bad ass with 19% market share.

The Sigma platform is too expensive for anything that doesn't carry a Cadillac price tag. Astra is a money loser because of exchange rate, and they have a near 400 day supply on dealer lots, it is GM's slowest selling product. The Vellite was a cool looking concept, but GM doesn't have the money to make it, and a $40-45k Buick convertible probably won't sell in volume.

Sure they can...

It all depends on the scope of the brand.

VW does this nicely in Europe.

[smk4565]

I have said for years they need to cut brands, I love this idea. Hummer has to go fast, it is a politically incorrect vehicle and image killer at this point. Saab is next out the door, if they could get even $10 million for either brand they should take it. Otherwise just close them down and eat the cost.

Step 2 is hard, because Saturn with 5 relatively new models is still a sales dud, and has it's own dealerships, making it easy to kill. I would lean toward closing down Saturn. Although Pontiac's and Buick's brand images are dead and their product lineups uncompetitive. GMC is totally redundant. GMC could become a fleet sale outlet for both work trucks, vans etc, but rental cars as well. I think GM should have one brand that all fleet sales go through so the resale values of the other brands aren't hurt.

I would only keep 2 of the B-P-G group to fill the space between Chevy and Cadillac. If GMC is all fleet and covers rental cars, I'd keep Buick for crossovers and cars based off Chevy but nicer. I would lean toward getting rid of Pontiac in that case.

The other option is get rid of B-P-G and keep Saturn, but people still think of Saturn as entry level, positioning them above Chevy is unlikely to work. If they had Oldsmobile, Chevy-Olds-Cadillac would be an epic lineup.

[PurdueGuy]

So... Saturn has an all new line up, yet Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars and Chevrolet clones and sales are down roughly the same amount at each division?!?!

Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

Solstice came out in '06

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

I'd say the G6 & G5 need redone soon, but I'm not sure "a bunch of outdated cars" is a good description.

Also don't forget that the Astra isn't really new, just new to us/US. Sky is just as old as the Solstice. Saturn's lineup is newer overall, though.

[wildcat]

General Motors is studying the idea of killing the Saab, Saturn and Pontiac brands

And what, exactly, does GM expect the effect of this announcement (even just the consideration of killing the brands) will be on Saab, Saturn, and Pontiac sales?

[gmpartsgirl]

We've all been talking and specualting about this at work for a while now. Something has too give. Too many names, too many twins. I agree with dropping Saab, not so sure about Saturn, the new models they've got are some of the best I've seen in a long while, beautiful cars. We all expect Pontiac to go away, right or wrong. There's an argument for both sides. They need to have just luxury, sporty and economical nameplates. The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both. Pontiac is the sport, Chevrolet is the economy. I say GMC is a waste of time. Don't know, I don't envy the people that have to decide.

[network engineer]

Drop GMC. The truck market is dead right now and simply cannot support an entire division full of badge jobs.

Buick. Drop it. It should have been made competative with Acura 10 years ago. Too late now.

Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

SAAB. Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates posative cash flow.

Chevy. Keep it of course.

Caddillac. Keep it of course.

Hummer. Drop it. The H3 is a rip off and the H2 is a bigger rip off. They are both cool though.

Saturn drop it. I like Saturn, but it had no business being created in the first place.

[daves87rs]

We've all been talking and specualting about this at work for a while now. Something has too give. Too many names, too many twins. I agree with dropping Saab, not so sure about Saturn, the new models they've got are some of the best I've seen in a long while, beautiful cars. We all expect Pontiac to go away, right or wrong. There's an argument for both sides. They need to have just luxury, sporty and economical nameplates. The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both. Pontiac is the sport, Chevrolet is the economy. I say GMC is a waste of time. Don't know, I don't envy the people that have to decide.

I can agree with a lot of this here. Saab would be the most likely to go, then Pontiac.

Though at this point all 3 could easly go, and outside of the few us would even notice...

[enzl]

I think you'll see the further reduction in nameplates, but without a truly "Chapter 11-ish" Government Event, you have mouths to feed and Olds proved you can't afford to buy 'em out.

I'd be shopping or closing Holden, Saab, Hummer & Saturn---although I believe its small, independent dealer body and Spring Hill would make an attractive acquisition for someone. Saab & Hummer are costly distractions.

With it's best lineup--possibly ever--GM has the potential to really do well with the 15% Market share they could naturally support. The credit crunch has decimated GM one hope of offering a deal. GMAC is tightening its lending footprint, daily...GM no longer has a captive finance company. Note that Chrysler is offering 0%.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I would be prepared for an announcement soon of more employee layoffs and plant closings, most likely before GM goes before Congress next week.

[Satty]

I'll say it again. Shutting Saturn down is a horrible idea because of the stand-alone dealerships. The costs associated with closing them down, and the subsequent lawsuits (this is America after all) would cost GM an arm, a leg, a lung, half a liver, a testicle, the duodenum and a cornea. I'm not sure what kind of sales network Saab has, my local dealership is rolled in with Cadillac and BPG. Shutting Pontiac is the most cost-effective way to shut a brand if GM decides that is necessary and neither Hummer nor Saab can be sold.

[balthazar]

>>"Drop GMC

Saab- Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates positive cash flow"<<

Problem here WRT consistancy of reasoning is: GMC is also profitable & generates cash flow, with far less investment vs. saab.

>>"GM had 50% market share in 1960"<<

GM had 46% marketshare in 1960 (2,792,480 units vs. the domestic market total of 6,029,943), and only if you include the domestic brands only; that percentage would be slightly less if you include the smattering of imports.

GM also only had 34% in 1930 (990,442 vs, domestic industry total of 2,928,064)... the '60s were the spike vs. the overall history of GM's marketshare.

>>"The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both."<<

But Buick China & Buick U.S.A. share nothing but the nameplate- they are autonomous to each other. Offing one would have nothing to do with the other. I'm certainly not in favor of discontinuing Buick, but this is not a legitimate reason to base any decision on, either way. 'Dropping Cadillac' is ludicrious to even consider.

>>"...Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success"<<

Source ??

Edited November 27, 2008 by balthazar

[wildcat]

. . . the subsequent lawsuits . . . would cost GM . . . a testicle . . .

Ow-ow-ow!

[Chazman]

Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

.

Last month, not even one G8 was sold for every Pontiac dealer. Unless Pontiac dealers can sell like 50 times as many Holdens as they already do, I just don't see that as viable.

[daves87rs]

I would be prepared for an announcement soon of more employee layoffs and plant closings, most likely before GM goes before Congress next week.

I would be thinking worse than that....

[daves87rs]

Last month, not even one G8 was sold for every Pontiac dealer. Unless Pontiac dealers can sell like 50 times as many Holdens as they already do, I just don't see that as viable.

The G8 is a dud, I I don't see any more Holdens making their way here after these numerous failures....

[Intrepidation]

I love these "unnamed sources". They could be anyone, saying anything. Hell I could be one.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Satty]

I love these "unnamed sources".

long time?

[daves87rs]

I love these "unnamed sources". They could be anyone, saying anything. Hell I could be one.

If you lived in Detroit, maybe......

[daves87rs]

long time?

Love long time???

[BuddyP]

Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

Solstice came out in '06

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

Now before I get into this, I think Pontiac should stay...

G6, most unrefined between all Epsilons (Aura, Malibu)

G5... we already have a Cobalt

G3... we already have a Aveo

Vibe... Toyota

Solstice and G8 are really the only two unique vehicles they have.

[BuddyP]

This absoluty ferusterates me... Why does Pontiac keep getting on the list for the chopping block but nothing is ever said about Buick? I'd have to go back and look at the numbers but I think Saturn even outsells Buick by a little? Heck, other than the fact that the Enclave is nicer than the Outlook, Saturn as a better lineup than Buick, and I think Saturn would even have more potential if properly marketed. But Pontiac would continue to be a top linup if they ditch the rebadged G5 and G3 for some significant variations to take their place.

[Oracle of Delphi]

This absoluty ferusterates me... Why does Pontiac keep getting on the list for the chopping block but nothing is ever said about Buick? I'd have to go back and look at the numbers but I think Saturn even outsells Buick by a little? Heck, other than the fact that the Enclave is nicer than the Outlook, Saturn as a better lineup than Buick, and I think Saturn would even have more potential if properly marketed. But Pontiac would continue to be a top linup if they ditch the rebadged G5 and G3 for some significant variations to take their place.

Buick outsells them if you include China.

[maxximus1]

not pontiac! they already killed olds, it would be a shame to lose another storied brand.

[Satty]

The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

[regfootball]

tell me this

let me qualify this by saying i've got some drink on me

as a midwestern white boy who grew up on GM product

why does it have to be about 'which brands will GM cut'

we have Honda, Mazda, TOTOYA, mistushi (been there done that), subru, all these asian banrds, SUzkui, help me out here, KIA,

why do the AMERICAN BRANDS have to go away?

why can't GM fold a grratly reduced Pontiac and Buick lineup into chevy and let BPG-chevy exist, and then keep satur/caddy/opel as chanel 2 in north maerica. PLEASE WHY ARE YOU FORCING ME TO HAVE TO BUY JAPANESE CRAP.

sautnr dude left a message for mew today and it looks like an unrefusable offer on the astra. its about time. and now your gonna shut it down? BAstrds.

Edited November 27, 2008 by regfootball

[smk4565]

we have Honda, Mazda, TOTOYA, mistushi (been there done that), subru, all these asian banrds, SUzkui, help me out here, KIA,

why do the AMERICAN BRANDS have to go away?

The Asian companies are making profit (mitsubishi may not be, they seem to be dying), the American ones aren't. If you aren't making money, you go out of business or slim down. Same reason Circuit City is closing 150 stores, while Best Buy isn't or why Linens N Things is closing all stores, but Bed, Bath and Beyond isn't.

[mustang84]

GM would have never had this problem of having overlap if they had actually made good on their word for no more rebadges. Pontiac could have been a great brand with two or three top notch products, but instead we got a bunch of rebadges and vehicles that didn't fit with the Pontiac image at all. And they still don't get it now that Pontiac is getting a G3. You don't get volume by producing a bunch of half-assed cars that nobody wants.

Imagine if only Buick and Chevrolet or GMC had only received Lambdas, only Pontiac received the Solstice, only Chevrolet received the Cobalt...think of all the extra money GM would have had to put toward some really kick ass product. Now GM is left with a ton of dated vehicles to update and nobody's buying!

[thegriffon]

What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

[2QuickZ's]

While I would hate to see GM lose any of those divisions, the harsh reality is that some need to go. I own two Saturns and my two previous cars were Saabs but if they killed both divisions, I would understand. It would obviously kill the resale value of the two Saturns I currently own but so would a GM bankruptcy. I also would have no problem seeing Pontiac go. GM MUST get smaller to survive. They do no have the market share to justify all the brands they have now.

I know a lot of you hate to hear it and it pains me deeply to say it, but Pontiac is the brand it makes the most sense to shut down. They have been starved of competitive product, their reputation is shot, and there are almost no stand alone dealerships anymore so it would be relatively cheap to shut it down. If GM decided to keep Saturn, it could then be folded in with Buick and GMC to broaden the dealership base. Personally, I think GMC should go away as well. Buick, thanks to their popularity in China are being set up as a world brand. Much of the next LaCrosse was designed in China.

If it were up to me, I would kill/sell brands in the following order:

1) Hummer

2) Saab

3) Pontiac

4) Saturn

I was at the Saturn dealership last night and was talking to my salesman. I qualify what he said by stating clearly that I live in SE Michigan so that tends to amplify things in the domestics favor. He told me two things that surprised me:

1) Sales at their dealership have been strong in spite of the downturn and their sales have only recently started to decline.

2) He was talking with a friend of his that was a salesman at a different dealership/brand. That salesman had a friend that was a salesman at a stand alone Pontiac dealership that has yet to sell a car THIS MONTH! Ouch!

[enzl]

All previous posts have failed to identify the Current real issue with GM:

They can no longer finance their own product--therefore, every 140% (or unlimited before that) LTV vehicle they rolled out of showrooms 12 months ago CANNOT be sold now. And when GM customers return for GM cars/trucks, they find their leasing & financing options (assuming they aren't buried upside down) are extremely limited and uncompetitive.

No Leasing, No Zero% Financing and no bank that'll finance negative equity like GMAC used to....the death spiral mentioned in other, unmentionable web sites has come to pass...

The product issues are just a manifestation of the corporate ADD and inability to truly see the market's needs beyond the next business quarter results---they are the net results of a failed organization. Those failures then forced GM to sell GMAC to Cerberus---Now both are in credit-hell without the resources needed to effectively survive the current downturn without both getting Gov't handouts.

Cutting brands must be looked at as necessary amputation for the rest to survive. It sux, but GM doesn't have the luxury of time---coulda been different if they were listening to the right people years ago (Perot, York)---but it was more expedient to buy them off....

Now we're going to lose a number of American icons because of that behavior...but it does look like I'm going to get my wish---RW looks like he's living on borrowed time.

Edited November 27, 2008 by enzl

[hyperv6]

I have entertained the Idea of rolling the Saturn Aura and Astra to Pontiac and kill the rest of Saturn. Kill ther G6 and G5.

Sell Saab.

You eiither fix Pontiac or kill it as who would buy that mess.

[Chazman]

What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

You make good points.

Sloan's concept is probably easier to apply if you've got 45% of the market, rather than the 19% GM currently has. Plus, I really doubt that it's possible to exert that sort of discipline on the dealers.

Shutting down brands is risky and expensive. But when you are spending money to develop and market products which directly compete against each other, I just don't see that as a good business model.

[Chazman]

I have entertained the Idea of rolling the Saturn Aura and Astra to Pontiac and kill the rest of Saturn. Kill ther G6 and G5.

Sell Saab.

You eiither fix Pontiac or kill it as who would buy that mess.

To some extent Pontiac has displayed a failure to thrive in it's advertised position as a "performance brand". I mean GM has certainly lavished lots of interesting products on Pontiac over the past decade. Solstice, GTO, G8. The best and most developed W-car ever, the GP GXP. A coupe and convertible version of the G6 - and the only G6 which was certified with a stick for awhile. During the 4th gen F-car days, the Firebird was blessed with a budget completely uncommensurate with the tiny sales volume it had.

Obviously this whole "American BMW" thing for Pontiac, hasn't stuck with the American public. Those that want a BMW, just go and buy the real thing. Those who are looking for something else, buy a Mazda or Scion. For a long time, I had wanted Pontiac to transform itself into a "youth brand", (regardless of which demographic actually purchased their cars), like Scion or Mazda or even Mini Cooper. It may be too late for even that now.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Chazman

[enzl]

To some extent Pontiac has displayed a failure to thrive in it's advertised position as a "performance brand". I mean GM has certainly lavished lots of interesting products on Pontiac over the past decade. Solstice, GTO, G8. The best and most developed W-car ever, the GP GXP. A coupe and convertible version of the G6 - and the only G6 which was certified with a stick for awhile. During the 4th gen F-car days, the Firebird was blessed with a budget completely uncommensurate with the tiny sales volume it had.

Obviously this whole "American BMW" thing for Pontiac, hasn't stuck with the American public. Those that want a BMW, just go and buy the real thing. Those who are looking for something else, buy a Mazda or Scion. For a long time, I had wanted Pontiac to transform itself into a "youth brand", (regardless of which demographic actually purchased their cars), like Scion or Mazda or even Mini Cooper. It may be too late for even that now.

AGreed.

I'd also add that Pontiac has tried to have its cake (volume) & eat it too ('performance image')--most of the volume products simply didn't truly reflect the marketing slogan.

GM couldn't spot and exploit a niche well enough or quickly enough to make 'niche' brands work--that's why we see spotty 'excitement' product across GM--XLR, Solstice/Sky. original GTO, Aztek, SSR. et al....

It's tough to excel with a record like that.

[gmcbob]

I'm assuming that if GM dropped the Saturn brand, I'd at least be able to get warranty work done on my Vue at other GM dealerships like they did with Olds (I certainly hope so).

But what will really sucks ass is that it will be worthless on a trade in now. I had a friend that bought an Oldsmobile Alero back in 1999 or 2000 and it tanked in value when they killed Olds. I don't talk to her these days, but I'd be very surprised if she's driving a GM product (unless she still owns that car of course).

Incidentally, I actually liked that car - it was a fully loaded black V6 (I think it was a V6). Of course, back in those days I was a GMC/Chevy truck/Camaro/Trans Am big old honkin' V8 rear wheel drive sort of ass hole, but still, it was a cool car for a GM front driver.

Ah, good old GM, the one brand (at the time) that actually had some pretty good little mileage cars with generally good overall styling and driving dynamics that appealed to younger professionals - and they killed it. Very, very, very stupid business decision. Yep, one of the dumbest decisions GM has made in the last 20 years, hands down.

Edited November 27, 2008 by gmcbob

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac has a bunch of outdated cars?

Yep.

G6 came out in '05, is now getting mild refresh

Refresh or not, compared to the competition and especially the Aura, uit's WAY outdated.

If we say the obvious G5=Cobalt, then it came out in '05

And in comparison to the competition and especially the "wonder child" Astra that was supposed to save the world, it's outdated.

G3=Aveo obviously, but at least they just reworked it, so it's pretty fresh (if completely uninspiring)

The same Aveo that's been out for how long now?

Solstice came out in '06

It's main competition, the Miata, is brand new.

G8 just came out, what, early this year? late last year?

Vibe is new

I agree with that

I'd say the G6 & G5 need redone soon, but I'm not sure "a bunch of outdated cars" is a good description.

Notice, these are the two volume sellers. And I'm just quoting what I've heard both here and in the media.

Also don't forget that the Astra isn't really new, just new to us/US. Sky is just as old as the Solstice. Saturn's lineup is newer overall, though.

It's all about ROI.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Drop GMC. The truck market is dead right now and simply cannot support an entire division full of badge jobs.

That's bad business.

That entire division of 'badge jobs' (eventhough they aren't) is straight profit. GM would have a nice little PROFITABLE niche if it kept GMC.

Buick. Drop it. It should have been made competative with Acura 10 years ago. Too late now.

That's abd business as well. Take Buick out of China and then see how GM's prospects look.

Pontiac. Keep it and simply import Holdens, and don't change anything on the Holdens. The commodore looks better than the G8.

As long as Opels would be Pontiacs as well, this will work.

SAAB. Keep it, because it's still profitable and generates posative cash flow.

Saab has NEVER made a profit and would be insignificant even if it were to.

Saturn drop it. I like Saturn, but it had no business being created in the first place.

But it can tap the import intenders that will NOT buy other GM products

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

>>"...Cadillac. After all, it's not exactly a huge success"<<

Source ??

Umm... The SALES both in american and especially outside of america in relation to the competition.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

But the problem there is, GM has procclaimed that it needs VOLUME to survive.

VOLUME is what Pontiac provides, rebadges or not.

[network engineer]

>>"The problem is how well Buick is doing in China, so do you make Buick the luxury flagship and drop Caddy or keep both."<<

But Buick China & Buick U.S.A. share nothing but the nameplate- they are autonomous to each other. Offing one would have nothing to do with the other. I'm certainly not in favor of discontinuing Buick, but this is not a legitimate reason to base any decision on, either way. 'Dropping Cadillac' is ludicrious to even consider.

Isn't that part of the problem? GM produces a much finer car in China for Buick than they do here in the USA. Wouldn't it be better for GM to develop engineer and produce 1 set of Buicks for worldwide distribution? That would dramatically reduce R&D and production costs. A Buick should be more expensive than a chevy anyway, so when 2020 comes they'll probably be pretty close to 35MPG and avoid costing then a gas guzzler, because Chevy should still be the volume brand and offset the lower MPG of the luxury Buicks. Even if they don't the Gas Guzzler tax can just be added into the MSRP and then paid by GM.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What they've been guilty of for too long is abandoning Sloan's concept and homogenizing all the brands, not merely in rebadges, which they have moved away from largely (G3 and G5 aside), but in market and price. Instead of increasing prices at Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile and Saturn to keep pace with premium imports, they allowed each division to chase volume at the expense of image and margin. They still have not corrected that, and everytime they try hordes of customers and dealers howl and complain that prices have too high.

As for division viability and volumes, as I have indicated elsewhere, a $3000 gross margin per vehicle on a mere 300,000 Pontiacs a year (including Canada and Mexico easily possible even now) would give GM $900 million a year to spend on product development. Without sharing platforms that should be enough to develop a brand-new model for the division every year. With a 10 year cycle between platform changes and a new model change every 5 years (Toyota's standard), that's enough to support at least 7 unique models. And that is without sharing models with Holden, or platforms with Cadillac, Buick, Opel or Chevrolet.

If, and this is the real problem facing the domestic automakers, if they can make those margins per vehicle, they can easily support every brand with a broad range of fresh, competitive vehicles. The problem is they don't. Until they do they cannot support adequate development for any number of brands. Not 4, not 3, not 2, not even one. Cutting one or more brands will not change that.

Finally, a voice or truth!

[ZL-1]

The costs associated with closing them down, and the subsequent lawsuits (this is America after all) would cost GM an arm, a leg, a lung, half a liver, a testicle, the duodenum and a cornea.

Not the testicles and corneas!!!

The easy answer is that Buick is strong in China, might as well try to make it a world brand. Pontiac is NA only and lives on uninspired rebadges. Plus, Pontiac has more overlap with Chevy than Buick does.

Agreed. And the Insignia-turned-into-Regal worked pretty well wearing a Buick grille and bumper. Why not offer some Opels as Buicks in NA and why not have Pontiac remain as a Canada-and-Mexico-only brand since it's where they sell well?

SAAB could be sold... I was wondering if BMW bought MINI and offers small and fun FWD cars, could it have an interest in a niche brand for FWD cars bigger than the MINI but not as expensive as a BMW? A brand they could also market leveraging the Swedish environmentally-friendly culture?

Edited November 27, 2008 by ZL-1

[buyacargetacheck]

A step in the right direction. However, it smells like a head-fake just to get the Federal funding. The team running GM is obtuse to say the least.

That said, it's still not enough...

* Ax Pontiac, Saturn and Buick in North America. The brand names are just about worthless to all but the nostalgic.

* Sell Buick in China to SAIC.

* Sell Saab to anyone with cash - just get rid of it. It's always been a money loser and it always will be a money loser.

* Reposition GMC to sell only medium trucks and prepare to spin it off for cash (maybe Isuzu would have interest?).

* Ax HUMMER, but put the brand name up for sale.

* Start a new franchise called "Goodwrench Service" that existing Pontiac, GMC, Buick, HUMMER and Saturn dealers could sign up for. These dealers could stay in business selling used cars and offering service for all makes under the "Goodwrench" brand name as well as warranty claims for the axed brands.

Chevy and Cadillac is all that's needed. Flatten the management structure, cull the dead wood, squeeze the union a bit more than what was won for 2010 and we might see a profitable GM.

[smk4565]

They need Chevy, Cadillac and one brand in between. They need profit margin, not volume or anything else at this point.