A question

[Camino LS6]

Hey guys?

Let's stick to the topic, shall we?

No product plans, talk of budgets,recent history, and so forth.

The question at hand is "what is Pontiac?

Remember?

Carry on.

[The O.C.]

What do you see as the "essence" of the Pontiac brand?

Please keep your replies serious and avoid commenting on the current state of the brand, that's not what I'm asking here.

What I'm asking is more "What should a Pontiac be? ", not "What should Pontiac do?", or "What is wrong with Pontiac?"

I'm looking for a brand definition here.

"We Build Excitement"

Three simple words. Learn 'em and live 'em......and make sure your products live UP to them......

Really can't get any simpler than that......

[The O.C.]

What was wrong with thee Aztek?

To me, the problem with the Aztek was not concept, but the execution.

To me, the Aztek (and Rendezvous) spell everything that's been wrong with GM the last 20 years......poor design direction (making a SUV out of minivan hardpoints was never going to come off correctly), haphazard fit, finish, and materials, and outdated and underperforming powertrains.

Azteks may have been reliable, I don't know. But I do know that I had some friends that had a Pontiac Montana sister-mobile that was an absolute disaster after a few years.....

(OK.....a slight diversion from the topic, but an interesting question to respond to in any event.)

[gm4life]

"We Build Excitement"

Three simple words. Learn 'em and live 'em......and make sure your products live UP to them......

Really can't get any simpler than that......

That is so true, those ads really pushed me to buy a Pontiac back in 1990 over a Chevrolet or Olds, that I was looking at. They need that slogan back, they also cars that have unqiue designs at least and look exciting. I could be happy with "We are driving excitement" from the late 90's also. I would devote some money for Pontiac give them the come-back they deserve this way. The OC is right on.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hey guys?

Let's stick to the topic, shall we?

No product plans, talk of budgets,recent history, and so forth.

The question at hand is "what is Pontiac?

Right now?

As good as dead. In the non-enthusiast's eyes, Pontiac has all the brand cache of Hyundai but without the long warranty.

[Satty]

What is Pontiac?

Irrelevant

[Camino LS6]

Right now?

As good as dead. In the non-enthusiast's eyes, Pontiac has all the brand cache of Hyundai but without the long warranty.

C'mon you know that's not what I'm talking about, Mr. Distraction.

And BTW, I disagree.

But let's not go there, again.

[ToniCipriani]

To me Pontiac should mean affordable, but with a lot of bite. They're in a lot of racing, but hardly advertise it. ALMS DP Class with the 5.0L V8, GT Class with the GXP.R, Formula D and SCCA Showroom Stock with the Solstice.

Ultimately I want them to make use of that, to create an image that Pontiac will take you for a spin on the road and on the track, something like this:

[Camino LS6]

Several recent championships as I recall...

[hyperv6]

Several recent championships as I recall...

Championships are nice but if the product is still lacking.

It ain't braging if you can back it up. On the street the G6 is not backing anything up.

It is a good but not great performer. It is not a performace car and it is not even the best GM car on that platform.

You can't do a bait and switch in advertising. If you want to present a race car that is a winner you had better offer a street car with some real substance. Anyone can slide a tube chassie under a carbon body shell. AMC even raced Sprints in the 70's, that did a lot of good.

The Solstice is the only legit Pontiac at present with any real race creed.

It all comes back to product. No matter how you market it or make it look Pontiac needs better cars across the line other than 2 good ones they now have.

Anyone notice if you have a very good product it often sells itself.

With many of the products Pontiac is now selling even Billy Mays could not sell a G3 to a leg less man stuck in middle of the desert.

[Camino LS6]

Actually Hyper, I was thinking of the Solstice, and the GTO before it. The Zok package for the Solstice is one of the coolest options in the entire market.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Chevy SS: sporty practical cars. Pontiac: practical sports cars.

Pontiac's base models should be equivalent in performance to Chevy's SS models. Big V8's or turbo 4's. They should also have wild, unrestrained styling, more like the Solstice than the G8 in my opinion. The G8 is a good looking car but nothing about it looks definitively sporty, i.e., I think it would look at home as a Chevy. Pontiacs should all look like Ferraris. No one should ever think it was a common passenger car.

+1

[smk4565]

Right now?

As good as dead. In the non-enthusiast's eyes, Pontiac has all the brand cache of Hyundai but without the long warranty.

Agreed. But Hyundai has more cache sadly.

[Drew Dowdell]

Agreed. But Hyundai has more cache sadly.

Please don't agree with me, I have a reputation to keep around here.

[gm4life]

Please don't agree with me, I have a reputation to keep around here.

:rotflmao:

[A Horse With No Name]

Several recent championships as I recall...

We need to get people into the cars to experience just how good they are. Very few people that bash the Sosltice have ever driven one with an open mind.

The G6 is a good car IMHO...I could see firming up the suspension and refreshing the interior a bit until GM had money to upgrade the whole product lineup.

Chris

[Argen]

Firstly, it is a commonly accepted fact that if you try too hard to be cool, then you most assuredly won't be.

That's probably the single largest problem I've had with Pontiac for a long time. They try too hard to seem cool, rather than just being awesome naturally.

I'm sorry, but Pontiac shouldn't try to be Burt Renyolds-cool. (Which is to say, not cool at all.)

They should try to be James Dean-cool, or (this is sacrilege) Steve McQueen-cool. The mid-Sixties Ponchos had it spot-on - they looked brilliant but didn't burn your retinas off. A good-ol '68 Firebird 400, in my book, is just as cool at the Bullitt Mustang GT fastback.

I would compare my ideal Pontiac to Porsche, but unfortunately Porsche seems to have gone insane these days what with the Panamera and the Cheyenne. I image them being lower production, more of a niche brand and moving up the ladder to be more like Porsche was a few years ago with a laser-focused lineup and sytling directon. Of course, I'd take the brand up market but not up to Porsche prices.

I see Pontiac becoming a focused, mid-range performance brand. Buick, which would be the other half of that equation, would produce the traditional (read: soft cruiser) American luxury car. The two would work together to form a larger mid-range brand. Pontiac; the premium performance, and Buick; the traditonal luxury. Cadillac, thus, caps both brands and acts as a fusion of both while transcending them in price.

I see the brand, as a whole, taking on the styling direction of the Solstice, while expanding on it and taking it in new directions. There also needs to be a wholeness in their design. So many cars just seem like the sum of their parts, rather than a cohesive whole. I saw an old thirties MG PA Airline at a motor show once, and was completly blown away by it. Every inch of the car screamed MG. From the wooden dash with the chrome-timed octagonal guages to the cathedral-window sunroof and the tan leather and red carpet. The whole car had a sense of being tailor-made, and not a parts-bin mishap.

When the 2nd Gen F-bird came out, the styling was often compared to contemporary Jaguars or Maseratis. That's what Pontiac should be. Heart-wrenching beauty and performance. They should play with the senses and be imbued with an atmosphere so powerful that it becomes nearly impossible to remove oneself from the vehicle after a spirited Sunday afternoon drive. They should never have their hearts disguised by bland, grey plastic, but leave their engineering out for all the world to see.

I know I'm being a bit over-the-top, a bit ambitious, a bit verbose. But where will GM ever get without ambition? They need to have the ambition to look more than 7-10 years into the future. And sometimes they need to be over-the-top to get the right ideas across. The performance of Pontiac has been "implied" for many years. Definate statements and plans need to be made, not catchy phrases about how Pontiac buyers like to go to raves with flashing strobes.

And, as usual, I've posted something that is entirely too long.

And if I've upset anyone by anything that I've said, I'm sorry.

[Camino LS6]

Firstly, it is a commonly accepted fact that if you try too hard to be cool, then you most assuredly won't be.

That's probably the single largest problem I've had with Pontiac for a long time. They try too hard to seem cool, rather than just being awesome naturally.

I'm sorry, but Pontiac shouldn't try to be Burt Renyolds-cool. (Which is to say, not cool at all.)

They should try to be James Dean-cool, or (this is sacrilege) Steve McQueen-cool. The mid-Sixties Ponchos had it spot-on - they looked brilliant but didn't burn your retinas off. A good-ol '68 Firebird 400, in my book, is just as cool at the Bullitt Mustang GT fastback.

I would compare my ideal Pontiac to Porsche, but unfortunately Porsche seems to have gone insane these days what with the Panamera and the Cheyenne. I image them being lower production, more of a niche brand and moving up the ladder to be more like Porsche was a few years ago with a laser-focused lineup and sytling directon. Of course, I'd take the brand up market but not up to Porsche prices.

I see Pontiac becoming a focused, mid-range performance brand. Buick, which would be the other half of that equation, would produce the traditional (read: soft cruiser) American luxury car. The two would work together to form a larger mid-range brand. Pontiac; the premium performance, and Buick; the traditonal luxury. Cadillac, thus, caps both brands and acts as a fusion of both while transcending them in price.

I see the brand, as a whole, taking on the styling direction of the Solstice, while expanding on it and taking it in new directions. There also needs to be a wholeness in their design. So many cars just seem like the sum of their parts, rather than a cohesive whole. I saw an old thirties MG PA Airline at a motor show once, and was completly blown away by it. Every inch of the car screamed MG. From the wooden dash with the chrome-timed octagonal guages to the cathedral-window sunroof and the tan leather and red carpet. The whole car had a sense of being tailor-made, and not a parts-bin mishap.

When the 2nd Gen F-bird came out, the styling was often compared to contemporary Jaguars or Maseratis. That's what Pontiac should be. Heart-wrenching beauty and performance. They should play with the senses and be imbued with an atmosphere so powerful that it becomes nearly impossible to remove oneself from the vehicle after a spirited Sunday afternoon drive. They should never have their hearts disguised by bland, grey plastic, but leave their engineering out for all the world to see.

I know I'm being a bit over-the-top, a bit ambitious, a bit verbose. But where will GM ever get without ambition? They need to have the ambition to look more than 7-10 years into the future. And sometimes they need to be over-the-top to get the right ideas across. The performance of Pontiac has been "implied" for many years. Definate statements and plans need to be made, not catchy phrases about how Pontiac buyers like to go to raves with flashing strobes.

And, as usual, I've posted something that is entirely too long.

And if I've upset anyone by anything that I've said, I'm sorry.

Upset?

Not a chance!

Brilliant post. You are one who understands.

[Lamar]

Firstly, it is a commonly accepted fact that if you try too hard to be cool, then you most assuredly won't be.

That's probably the single largest problem I've had with Pontiac for a long time. They try too hard to seem cool, rather than just being awesome naturally.

I'm sorry, but Pontiac shouldn't try to be Burt Renyolds-cool. (Which is to say, not cool at all.)

They should try to be James Dean-cool, or (this is sacrilege) Steve McQueen-cool. The mid-Sixties Ponchos had it spot-on - they looked brilliant but didn't burn your retinas off. A good-ol '68 Firebird 400, in my book, is just as cool at the Bullitt Mustang GT fastback.

I would compare my ideal Pontiac to Porsche, but unfortunately Porsche seems to have gone insane these days what with the Panamera and the Cheyenne. I image them being lower production, more of a niche brand and moving up the ladder to be more like Porsche was a few years ago with a laser-focused lineup and sytling directon. Of course, I'd take the brand up market but not up to Porsche prices.

I see Pontiac becoming a focused, mid-range performance brand. Buick, which would be the other half of that equation, would produce the traditional (read: soft cruiser) American luxury car. The two would work together to form a larger mid-range brand. Pontiac; the premium performance, and Buick; the traditonal luxury. Cadillac, thus, caps both brands and acts as a fusion of both while transcending them in price.

I see the brand, as a whole, taking on the styling direction of the Solstice, while expanding on it and taking it in new directions. There also needs to be a wholeness in their design. So many cars just seem like the sum of their parts, rather than a cohesive whole. I saw an old thirties MG PA Airline at a motor show once, and was completly blown away by it. Every inch of the car screamed MG. From the wooden dash with the chrome-timed octagonal guages to the cathedral-window sunroof and the tan leather and red carpet. The whole car had a sense of being tailor-made, and not a parts-bin mishap.

When the 2nd Gen F-bird came out, the styling was often compared to contemporary Jaguars or Maseratis. That's what Pontiac should be. Heart-wrenching beauty and performance. They should play with the senses and be imbued with an atmosphere so powerful that it becomes nearly impossible to remove oneself from the vehicle after a spirited Sunday afternoon drive. They should never have their hearts disguised by bland, grey plastic, but leave their engineering out for all the world to see.

I know I'm being a bit over-the-top, a bit ambitious, a bit verbose. But where will GM ever get without ambition? They need to have the ambition to look more than 7-10 years into the future. And sometimes they need to be over-the-top to get the right ideas across. The performance of Pontiac has been "implied" for many years. Definate statements and plans need to be made, not catchy phrases about how Pontiac buyers like to go to raves with flashing strobes.

And, as usual, I've posted something that is entirely too long.

And if I've upset anyone by anything that I've said, I'm sorry.