A question

[Camino LS6]

What do you see as the "essence" of the Pontiac brand?

Please keep your replies serious and avoid commenting on the current state of the brand, that's not what I'm asking here.

What I'm asking is more "What should a Pontiac be? ", not "What should Pontiac do?", or "What is wrong with Pontiac?"

I'm looking for a brand definition here.

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac should be a performance brand, with vehicles different from the other brands. The everyday volume cars can be handled by Chevy. A Pontiac should be a model you can't find at one of the other brands. It should represent performance, which doesn't have to be how many horses are under the hood, but the package as a whole...the braking, driving dynamics and so on. They shouldn't be priced above a similarly sized Chevy but significantly less than say, a Cadillac.

How's that?

Edited November 23, 2008 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

Thanks DF, that's the kind of response I'm looking for.

[wildcat]

Every Pontiac should be sporty, powerful, youthful, and not at all boring or plain. They should be built to give feedback of the road to the driver, with handling a prime consideration. If possible beyond what's done in an average vehicle, the interior should be focused around the driver, much like a cockpit of a plane with all controls in easy reach to the driver and various engine attributes showing (such as engine rpm). Pontiac should focus on the driver and perhaps one passenger, rather than comfortable seating for 5 or hauling a family.

Pontiac = maximum performance

[ edit ] An additional thought: the exterior design should elicit a response, like "wow!," from a person. It should look fast standing still.

Edited November 23, 2008 by wildcat

[hyperv6]

Pontiac should be the in house tuner division of GM NA. Like HSV is to Holden, AMG to Benz and M to BMW.

Pontiac should offer only the best tuner versions of every car they sell. That is not to say the most expensive or or limited. THey should sell Coupes and sedans. FWD and RWD but all should be of a special nature. No standard models, no cars that are not ment for spirited driving. The base cars should be a performance model and the up level car should be a near track car.

What is wrong with Pontiac. Mixed signals. THey profess perfromance and excitment for years but give us a G3, Non Turbo G5, G6 with nothing but tacked on crap, A underpowered Toyota, a small SUV, and finally a great sports car and sedan. Only 2 cars out of a line up does not make a brand.

Every Pontiac should be tuned by GMPD.

The bottom line is to make Pontiac into something more than a rebadged Chevy and make owning a Pontiac somthing different. Today owning anything but a Solstice or G8 is nothing but a Chevy with buck teeth. Sorry even the G6 is not as good as the present Malibu.

For right now I can't ans won't expect much as we will be lucky if there is a GM let alone a Pontiac. I still feel it is better top parek Pontiac for a couple years till GM can address them properly with a fresh start. Selling a G3 and the like just damages the name more than if they did not make it at all.

The bottom line is other than replacing my wifes GTP with a G8 in the future I am driving a Chevy as it gave me what I needed a small FWD that is well tuned and has more performance vs anything close Pontiac offered. My HHR SS will run circles around anything but the Solstice GXP or G8 V8.

Lets quite squaking about past history of the brand or old names. If they would just build a damn good performance car you could call it the Edsel 2 and people will buy it. Right now they

are not building very good performance cars and in some cases you can buy a better Chevy version for the same or less. [Note I have seen the Cobalt SS turbo advertised for $19K.]

If Pontiac offered a car comparable to:

Mini FWD [Delta 2 based]

WRX AWD [Delta 2]

Small sedan, hatch and Coupe with a Turbo 2.0 [Alpha]

Solstice [Alpha]

G8 in a coupe version [yes in the ST] [ down sized in the future but retained in RWD Enlarged Alpha?]

That is all they need. They do not need to be all things to all people just the best thing to those who want affordable world class performance.

The important thing is these all have to be shared with Holden, Opel, Saab or one other overseas division. If Pontiac is not a world brand it needs to be shared. None of the future NA division will be NA base and sold only. Pontiac will either have to sell world wide or be rebadged in other countries. The Middle East sales would be high as to my hunch.

[A Horse With No Name]

I disagree a little bit. To me Pontiac is all about styling. Look at say the 55 Pontiac-much more stylish and elegant than the 55 Chevy, and to me (a former 55 chevy owner) the 55 Chevy is one of GM's best ever designs...

Or look at the elegant wood dashboards of the 1960's GTO's vs. the plain jane Chevy dashboards.

Or look at the sorta overdone "disco Era' 1970's Grand Prix cars, the SJ and the SSJ and even the later Pontiacs.

Or look at the very well packaged later 3rd gen Firebirds, again a simplicity and elegance you just don't see in say an Iroc of the generation (and again, 3rd Gen Iroc another one of my fav. GM cars, and a future hopeful for my garage, but the Firebird is much more elegant.) I guess this is why I have always been so drawn to the 89 Firebird Indy Pace Car Replica with the Buick turbo V6-it seems to capture the essence of what is best about pontiac, upgraded styling and technologically driven performance.

I guess that's what I like about Tri-power, it was state of the art for say 62 or 64 and Pontiac jumped right in, took it and made it work pretty well.

Perhaps that's why I am such a Solstice fan-to me it symbolizes everything that is right about Pontiac. As does the G8-we have a member of our local VW TDI group who bashes American cars without mercy, who also belongs to the Mitsubishi owners group here in town. One of his female co-workers bought a G8 GT and he just can't stop raving about that car-he seems to be in a near sexual state of extacy when he's talking about how damn good the G8 is, and what a wonderful car it is. We've got another member who is like a walking VW encyclopedia, and is also a member of the local Buckeye Miata club with me. When we were talking about what we would have as a family car if we could afford any car on the planet, Eric, our Vw guru, spent the better part of dinner argueing that a G8 would be the ultimate family car.

I think the real essence of Pontiac is defined for me though in its heritage, esp. the 1940's and 1950's cars. To me, there is nothing from that Era that screams "drivers car' more loudly than Pontiac.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I feel passionate about Pontiac.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

I can really see a Pontiac Mini fighter...that would be an interesting design competition here.

However, again it can't be just performance, because the market for performance cars isn't that big, and you can't rely on performance cars alone to carry a brand.

Case in point, Solstice, Sky, Miata and Z4 were all selling about 1200 cars a month apiece before the economy went south, and now they are selling about 1200 cars a month combined.

Pontiac in its era was all about stylish cars for interesting people...why else would Major Healy drive one on I dream of Jeanie, or Fred McMurry drive one as the dad in My Three Sons? They cast the car perfectly to the charactor IMHO. When I was a kid, most of the people doing interesting things or trying different things drove Pontiacs. My dad's assistant drove a LeMans (same era as PCS car) and he rode his bike across Canada to raise money for charity.

I know I am rambling, but to me the essence of Pontiac is the creative spark of the people who drive them. Not only about performance...but also upgraded (more elegant than flashy) styling and about technology and saying your a different kind of person.

A Pontiac should never be dull. A dull Pontiac IMHO is as much of a sin as a Cadillac Cimmerson.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Great stuff!

Keep'em coming!

[balthazar]

Attitude in design, an outlaw spirit RE Corporate 'behavior' and a flurry of innovation moved mountains in Pontiac's storied past (plus- no apologies) - solid principals that could still work if led by a devoted individual.

>>"I guess that's what I like about Tri-power, it was state of the art for say 62 or 64 and Pontiac jumped right in, took it and made it work pretty well."<<

Just wanted to point out: Pontiac offered Tri-P starting in '57 (after offfering dual quads in '56), in additon to fuel injection. Granted, tech moved VERY fast in the '50s, but this is only 5 years after Cadillac went from a 2bbl to a 4bbl. Chevy, Olds, & Cadillac also offered 3x2s, but Pontiac ('57-66) became synonymous with it.

Edited November 23, 2008 by balthazar

[A Horse With No Name]

balthazar, I coulpdn't agree more. Often, once things get to the point of unmanageable morass (think our current political and automotive culture) comes real reform, change, and growth. Perhaps the current climate of clusterf@@@ will push ineffective people out of the way and give someone like your talking about a chance to shine.

Chris

[thegriffon]

A Pontiac should exude the essence of Pontiac's rebellious performance years. They should imply "I'm a sports car" not "I'm an economical plain family car". As such they should if possible be rwd, but that isn't strictly necessary. A mini has a suitable sporting image and yet remains fwd. The heritage of light-weight drilled, acid-dipped frames, powerful engines in relatively small cars, "wide-track" for better handling, "speed-lines" (not ribs) and racy styling that emphasizes the appearance of speed. Practicality should be high on the list of priorities, but not at the expense of handling, acceleration and braking. SUVs, vans, pickups and "station" wagons are therefore out, sedans, roadsters, coupes, hatchbacks, fastbacks and "sport" wagons are in.

[smk4565]

Rental car.

And I'm serious, the money isn't there to make a half decent Pontiac, the best strategy is to take previous gen Chevys, rebadge and fleet sale them like crazy. The 2009 G6 is basically a 2004 Malibu rebadge, this is what Pontiac should be. Then Chevy fleet sales can drop to zero, and save resale value.

[Intrepidation]

Rental car.

And I'm serious, the money isn't there to make a half decent Pontiac, the best strategy is to take previous gen Chevys, rebadge and fleet sale them like crazy. The 2009 G6 is basically a 2004 Malibu rebadge, this is what Pontiac should be. Then Chevy fleet sales can drop to zero, and save resale value.

1.) This is hypothetical, did you read the original post carefully?

2.) The G6 isn't a rebadge.

[A Horse With No Name]

Besides, cars that have real residual value (CTS, Wrangler, Toyota 4 Runner, MINI, TDI Volkswagen, etc.) do so by being unique and having a fanbase.

If we want residual value, make the cars unique, limit production and have a fanbase.

Which brings up something else of value-Pontiac should not be a volume brand per se, leave that to Chevy. Pontiac should be more like BMW (but not copying it). Lower volume and Higher profit.

smk4565, what I don't like about your idea is that it would be higher volume and lower profit. We've seen how well that works, why not try something different?

Chris

Edited November 23, 2008 by 66Stang

[smk4565]

G6 is a mechanical twin, and had the same radio/hvac console as the Malibu, it is close to a rebadge. It could work for rentals because it looks different than the Malibu, yet would still be cheap to produce. They fleeted the new Malibu at 37% in October (or September, I forget), it should be 5% or less.

If Pontiac was going to focus on low volume, they would have never made the G3 or G5 or Torrent, and the G6 would be in GXP trim only. In an ideal world with adequate funding, GM could do a lot of things with its brands, but with 19% market share and facing bankruptcy, they can't support 8 brands or make Pontiac a performance brand or Buick a Luxury brand or Saturn like VW, etc. The money doesn't exist.

[hyperv6]

Besides, cars that have real residual value (CTS, Wrangler, Toyota 4 Runner, MINI, TDI Volkswagen, etc.) do so by being unique and having a fanbase.

If we want residual value, make the cars unique, limit production and have a fanbase.

Which brings up something else of value-Pontiac should not be a volume brand per se, leave that to Chevy. Pontiac should be more like BMW (but not copying it). Lower volume and Higher profit.

smk4565, what I don't like about your idea is that it would be higher volume and lower profit. We've seen how well that works, why not try something different?

Chris

Finally someone is paying attention to the real needs!!

The plain fact is Pontiac needs to step out and build cars all car buyers would aspire to now just the hand full of leftover Trans Am or GP fans. The truth is there are few Pontiac fans left and more die everyday.

GM need to make this a perfromance car not relied on volume. It needs to be best in class. It needs to be something that appeals to the majortity.

Polarizing people with weird or oddd designs is ok for a strong company but a weak division of a weak company has to get it right.

If you want to save Potniac you need to let Pontiac become a new car in a new era. Living in the past has killed better car companies. Pontiac right now is much like the packard of the 40's and early 50's. It is a confused mess that tried too long to hang onto the past when the public moved on.

The people left Pontiac it was not Pontiac leaving them.

It may have not been a real cool thing to own a Pontiac since the 80's or 90's but going back to the formula of the 80's and 90's will not fix a car in todays market. You have to do better not only than the past Pontiacs but todays Nissan and Toyota's

[Camino LS6]

Good input from almost everyone.

Thanks.

[Intrepidation]

Good input from almost everyone.

Thanks.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac is the rebel...

Pontiac = anti

Pontiac is not RWD, Pontiac is not V8 and Pontiac is not strictly performance....

All Pontiac cars MUST have at least some performance attributes (You know, enough for them to qualify as performance cars) but the essence of Pontiac is rebellion and being everything that the average car is not.

[Sixty8panther]

Performance for the everyman...

Sporty, elegant, classy but not out of reach.

Widetrack

Split Grille

Performance designed IN not added on

BMW for those on the budget, or in many cases a thinking man's BMW

[deftonesfan867]

Machine X. Different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. Deadly looks, dark soul. The kind of car that if a normal dad's daughters new bf was driving it he wouldn't like him. There cars should scream get the hell out of my way or get eaten alive. Use demonic names like Banshee as well.

Edited November 24, 2008 by deftonesfan867

[balthazar]

I sure like "deadly looks, dark soul" far better than 'BMW on a budget' , sorry 68.

[Camino LS6]

I sure like "deadly looks, dark soul" far better than 'BMW on a budget' , sorry 68.

Agreed.

My favorite description so far.

[hyperv6]

Delorean and Bunkie were the only rebel Pontiac had.

Aztec was different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. It also screamed but all the wrong things. So please many who are giving general terms like this it is best to be a little more specific. That is what many at Pontiac has missed in the last 25 years.

The bottom line is people want image and cool. They don't really care how cool the car looks they what to know how cool they look in it. That is what you need to attach to the car.

Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore. You need a Pontiac built in the image like the CTS.

The new CTS has some Caddy highlights but it is modern and looks like the car is pulled over the chassie. Look at one on the road the way the rear carefully flairs out and the way the tires will the wells are points that need to be put into a Pontiac.

We need to leave the past behind as we have lost several generations that are now getting into the buying age of these cars. They don't care what they have done in the past but what they look like today and how they make them look.

Looks are like power. Many may have 400 HP under the hood but few ever use 3/4 of it. Just having the power present a image. Looks do the same thing. It tells the others I cool and bad and I have power because this car makes me look good.

Your selling image and power. That is what otdays buyers want. I am sorry a G3 and G6 just don't have that image. Not even the GXP. The G8 is close but just needs a little more something and that is what someone needs to find.

Time to find a new image to replace widetack and you should not have to say excitment if they have seen the car.

Imagine a next gen G8 built a little smaller in the image of the Chevy SS show car of a few years back. low long and sleek. Autoweek even pointed out the new Lambo sedan was a near copy in ther Body double photo. Put a twin grill on it and let her rip. Imagine a sedan with Solstice curves and a low roof.

We need to pinpoint the new styling points that Pontiac needs to incorperate. Leave the old stuff out except for the grill or light tail lamp treatments.

Low roofs, large wheels filling the wells. tight body on chassie with little over hang. High body line on the side to add to the low look while giving better side protection. Styling should be tastfull not polarizing. No carry over Chevy body panels.

People buy BMW because Image, They buy Benz, Image, They buy Ferrari Because of the Performance Image Few are drive to there fullest. We need Pontiac to say something for the owner if he puts his money down.

We are not going to sell a ton of Pontiacs anymore as I jsut don't see the volume on a shrinking market. Play to its strength. Pontiac is no longer a Sunbird or Torrent company.

Edited November 24, 2008 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore.

Where did anyone ask for those things ??

[deftonesfan867]

Agreed.

My favorite description so far.

[deftonesfan867]

Where did anyone ask for those things ??

I think he mean's that we shouldn't look @ Pontiac's past for how the future ones should look.

[balthazar]

Like how -say- BMW looks to its past for how present & future cars/trucks should look ?

There's nothing wrong with retaining a few key design elements; dropping the -say- split grille for a '1-hole' grille accomplishes nothing, says nothing, is change for change's sake, yet also pisses off the Pontiac faithful. Kinda like if BMW took the divider out of the pig nostrils on the front of everything they build. Minus 1. No one is saying we need wheelwell spats & flip-up headlights and flaming chickens... but that does not mean throw out the baby w/ the bathwater. There's precious little distinction in modern design; so if you can lay claim to anything, you need to hold onto that and nuture it and make it work for you. Seemingly, it is the superficial in Pontiac's past that catches hyper's vision, but not mine.

At issue here is; there were specific, distinct general elements of classic Pontiac design that CAN INDEED be incorporated into modern 'language'. If it works, GREAT, use it; don't dump it because some tenuous link can be drawn to 1965 or whathaveyou.

Fender air extractors, ala the last GP? - No! Not a language, just a scrap.

A subtle yet notable 'Coke bottle' ariel silhouette? Could really work well.

I once had a bystander ask me how I got that dent in the flank of my '64 Catalina, when what the dolt was seeing was the Coke Bottle flare of the rear quarters. Yes, the upcoming Camaro has a very similar feature, and it looks like money there. It highlights the wheels, it's agressive, it's fresh, it has attitude. It was Pontiac. Why would this be bad on a future Pontiac, again?

Edited November 24, 2008 by balthazar

[SoCalCTS]

Pontiac should be the economy brand for GM. Chevrolet is a full line brand so it shouldn't go to far downscale. Pontiac should be bare bones, radio optional, entry level.

[hyperv6]

Where did anyone ask for those things ??

The rebels are who that was directed to as that was a rebel idea that should not be revisited. Radical works for shock but not always for good styling. Kind of like painting your but orange and moon people on the street. That guy might be cool for some and turn off many but as time goes on he just becomes too weird for all.

Also if the joke was funny don't tell it twice so I recomend Pontiac look to new ideas in many areas of design.

I am just saying Pontiac can make a good statment just with a well styled car. Clean well proporsioned, tasteful with just the right low and tight look.

Leave off the strange G8 tail ights or the strange GXP G6 bits that just don't flow.

A great design should be styled into the car not bolted on.

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac should be the economy brand for GM. Chevrolet is a full line brand so it shouldn't go to far downscale. Pontiac should be bare bones, radio optional, entry level.

You are completely out of your mind.

[SAmadei]

I sure like "deadly looks, dark soul" far better than 'BMW on a budget' , sorry 68.

I agree. No description of a car should cite another car... it needs to stand on its own.

Personally, I agree with the split grill and widetrack. Keep 'em. Even hood-tachs are still cool. Pontiacs still need to be somewhat over-the-top.

I would also add that the long, thin, horizontal taillights with horizontal stripes need to make a comeback. Every classic Pontiac has had them, and this current "round lights under clear plastic with chrome" is a ten year-old trend... its old and needs replacement. In sticking with the "deadly looks, dark soul", dark, recessed taillights are a must. Car marketing always shows the aggressive front of cars... but on the road you spend most of the time staring at the rear of cars... and "showing one his taillights" is a taunt to the loser in the stoplight grand prix.

Finally, I imagine that Pontiacs' halo car should be like the cars kids in school drew. Nobody in school drew a Taurus or a Camry.

[Drew Dowdell]

You are completely out of your mind.

Well. You don't want my opinion then.

Pontiac has no essence.

It's not a performance division, never has been. Sure it had a few performance cars, but it was primarily a family car division for people who didn't want a Chevy but couldn't afford an Olds.

There is nothing rebellious about buying a Pontiac GTO over a Nova SS or Cutlass 442 or Buick Skylark GS just the same as it isn't rebllious to buy a wirespoke wheel, landau roofed Parisianne instead of a Caprice, LeSabre, or Eighty Eight. You will not be branded a trouble maker for driving your mom's old 6000 STE to school. A Sunbird is not a cop magnet. James Dean would have never EVER driven a Fiero. Solstice, maybe, but he could have gotten a better dealership experience over at Saturn for the same car.

I see that Pontiac needs a complete reboot. I see Pontiac as a niche brand. 2 platforms, 7 models. FWD, turbo 4, hatch, sedan, and HHR like vehicle and Alpha based coupe, sedan, and convertible 2x2, and roadster. Make them fast, fun, and cheap. Scion but with style and torque.

[z28luvr01]

Well. You don't want my opinion then.

Pontiac has no essence.

It's not a performance division, never has been. Sure it had a few performance cars, but it was primarily a family car division for people who didn't want a Chevy but couldn't afford an Olds.

There is nothing rebellious about buying a Pontiac GTO over a Nova SS or Cutlass 442 or Buick Skylark GS just the same as it isn't rebllious to buy a wirespoke wheel, landau roofed Parisianne instead of a Caprice, LeSabre, or Eighty Eight. You will not be branded a trouble maker for driving your mom's old 6000 STE to school. A Sunbird is not a cop magnet. James Dean would have never EVER driven a Fiero. Solstice, maybe, but he could have gotten a better dealership experience over at Saturn for the same car.

I see that Pontiac needs a complete reboot. I see Pontiac as a niche brand. 2 platforms, 7 models. FWD, turbo 4, hatch, sedan, and HHR like vehicle and Alpha based coupe, sedan, and convertible 2x2, and roadster. Make them fast, fun, and cheap. Scion but with style and torque.

[/

A 290hp big block in a mid-seventies car. Arguably the most rebellious thing Pontiac's ever done. And if Pontiac is ever to be relevant again, the attitude that made this car needs to be present in whatever they decide to sell.

[Drew Dowdell]

[/

A 290hp big block in a mid-seventies car. Arguably the most rebellious thing Pontiac's ever done. And if Pontiac is ever to be relevant again, the attitude that made this car needs to be present in whatever they decide to sell.

That joined rebels like Olds who had a 250hp 455 Rocket in 1975 or the 250hp 455 Buick

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Machine X. Different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. Deadly looks, dark soul. The kind of car that if a normal dad's daughters new bf was driving it he wouldn't like him. There cars should scream get the hell out of my way or get eaten alive. Use demonic names like Banshee as well.

Me like...

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Aztec was different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. It also screamed but all the wrong things. So please many who are giving general terms like this it is best to be a little more specific. That is what many at Pontiac has missed in the last 25 years.

What was wrong with thee Aztek?

It fulfilled the mission and there are tons of happy Aztek owners. The Aztek was different but it served a purpose. Sure, it was hated by many, but TO ME that is PART OF BEING A PONTIAC. Heavy Metal and Punk are hated by many, but that's kind of the point. It's a part of their identity and BECAUSE of that, the fans that choose that identity are some of the MOST LOYAL fans in the world.

See the point?

Pontiac needs to embrace the Aztek as a part of it's identity and history. The division (and to a larger extent GM) needs to take pride in both it's success and it's mistakes (Because we all learn more from our mistakes) This allows the consumer to be able to identify with the company on a more personal level because it takes the edge off of the "big corporation"

The bottom line is people want image and cool. They don't really care how cool the car looks they what to know how cool they look in it. That is what you need to attach to the car.

+1

Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore. You need a Pontiac built in the image like the CTS.

We have one, it's called G8.

The new CTS has some Caddy highlights but it is modern and looks like the car is pulled over the chassie. Look at one on the road the way the rear carefully flairs out and the way the tires will the wells are points that need to be put into a Pontiac.

I agree... That very element is why I love the CTS so much.

We need to leave the past behind as we have lost several generations that are now getting into the buying age of these cars. They don't care what they have done in the past but what they look like today and how they make them look.

I don't think that we should completely turn our backs on the heritage. We just need to reinvent the division on the same premise.

Your selling image and power. That is what otdays buyers want. I am sorry a G3 and G6 just don't have that image. Not even the GXP. The G8 is close but just needs a little more something and that is what someone needs to find.

Agreed 100%

Imagine a next gen G8 built a little smaller in the image of the Chevy SS show car of a few years back. low long and sleek. Autoweek even pointed out the new Lambo sedan was a near copy in ther Body double photo. Put a twin grill on it and let her rip. Imagine a sedan with Solstice curves and a low roof.

I agree... The SS was yet another concept squandered by GM and adopted by the industry. And, see my comments in my thread in the auto show section to see how I feel about the Solstice.

We are not going to sell a ton of Pontiacs anymore as I jsut don't see the volume on a shrinking market. Play to its strength. Pontiac is no longer a Sunbird or Torrent company.

+1...

Chevrolet is the volume division.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Pontiac should be the economy brand for GM. Chevrolet is a full line brand so it shouldn't go to far downscale. Pontiac should be bare bones, radio optional, entry level.

Maybe economy performance.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well. You don't want my opinion then.

Pontiac has no essence.

It's not a performance division, never has been. Sure it had a few performance cars, but it was primarily a family car division for people who didn't want a Chevy but couldn't afford an Olds.

There is nothing rebellious about buying a Pontiac GTO over a Nova SS or Cutlass 442 or Buick Skylark GS just the same as it isn't rebllious to buy a wirespoke wheel, landau roofed Parisianne instead of a Caprice, LeSabre, or Eighty Eight. You will not be branded a trouble maker for driving your mom's old 6000 STE to school. A Sunbird is not a cop magnet. James Dean would have never EVER driven a Fiero. Solstice, maybe, but he could have gotten a better dealership experience over at Saturn for the same car.

You're leaning to far into the facts and not enough into the market.

We're talking about IMAGE, not specs.

The Lexus ES isn't anymore classy than a Camry, yet it has a much better perceived image on the street.

It's all about what the brand conveys.

I see that Pontiac needs a complete reboot. I see Pontiac as a niche brand. 2 platforms, 7 models. FWD, turbo 4, hatch, sedan, and HHR like vehicle and Alpha based coupe, sedan, and convertible 2x2, and roadster. Make them fast, fun, and cheap. Scion but with style and torque.

And we couldn't build a rebellious image around that?!?! Hell, Scion is the one brand on the market that targets 'rebels' now. I don't see monsters, heavy metals or demons in other car commercials.

[Drew Dowdell]

You're leaning to far into the facts and not enough into the market.

We're talking about IMAGE, not specs.

The Lexus ES isn't anymore classy than a Camry, yet it has a much better perceived image on the street.

It's all about what the brand conveys.

And we couldn't build a rebellious image around that?!?! Hell, Scion is the one brand on the market that targets 'rebels' now. I don't see monsters, heavy metals or demons in other car commercials.

There is what the brand targets and who actually buys them. Just observe all the bluehairs behind the wheel of Scions...... but there I go again with facts. Scion is just a separate brand to hold Paseos, Echos, and Tercels.

I'm not saying that Pontiac couldn't be a "rebel" brand, I'm just saying they haven't been. The rebel brand I'd like them to emulate in marketing style is Mini.

[smk4565]

Well. You don't want my opinion then.

Pontiac has no essence.

It's not a performance division, never has been. Sure it had a few performance cars, but it was primarily a family car division for people who didn't want a Chevy but couldn't afford an Olds.

There is nothing rebellious about buying a Pontiac GTO over a Nova SS or Cutlass 442 or Buick Skylark GS just the same as it isn't rebllious to buy a wirespoke wheel, landau roofed Parisianne instead of a Caprice, LeSabre, or Eighty Eight. You will not be branded a trouble maker for driving your mom's old 6000 STE to school. A Sunbird is not a cop magnet. James Dean would have never EVER driven a Fiero. Solstice, maybe, but he could have gotten a better dealership experience over at Saturn for the same car.

I see that Pontiac needs a complete reboot. I see Pontiac as a niche brand. 2 platforms, 7 models. FWD, turbo 4, hatch, sedan, and HHR like vehicle and Alpha based coupe, sedan, and convertible 2x2, and roadster. Make them fast, fun, and cheap. Scion but with style and torque.

I agree with the first few points.

A year ago I would have been in agreement with the last point, that Pontiac should be a small car performance niche, going after Mazda Speed, Mini, VW GTI. They had the 2.0 turbo, they could have made some sporty small cars, mostly with rear drive and gone for the Fast and Furious crowd. The imports really capitalized on the youth on the west coast, if those 20-somethings stick with their import, that is 50 more years of import buying and a big opportunity missed by GM.

However, now that GM is broke, they don't have the resources to reboot Pontiac or make it a performance brand, so fleet sale brand or joining Oldsmobile in the graveyard are the options left.

[gm4life]

They need to offer good performance and knock out styling on everything from small and affordable cars to mid-priced high performance coupes/sedans aka G8. They also need a mix of FWD, AWD and RWD with a dual kidney grille signature Pontiac styling and orange/red lighting.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

There is what the brand targets and who actually buys them. Just observe all the bluehairs behind the wheel of Scions...... but there I go again with facts. Scion is just a separate brand to hold Paseos, Echos, and Tercels.

I'm not saying that Pontiac couldn't be a "rebel" brand, I'm just saying they haven't been. The rebel brand I'd like them to emulate in marketing style is Mini.

Mini is not a rebel brand at all. Mini is a midlife crisis/yuppie brand.

Hell, BMW is more of a rebel than Mini.

[Drew Dowdell]

Mini is not a rebel brand at all. Mini is a midlife crisis/yuppie brand.

Hell, BMW is more of a rebel than Mini.

What's more rebel than a 30-something married guy buying a MinicooperS to try and be a kid again? Have you seen the commercial with the two suburban house husband neighbors trying to one up each other with their Mini mods?

BMW is about as rebel as a beige Camry. Especially in gayland. Hell, I was a rebel gay for buying a CTS and not a Jetta/Passat/3-series.

[smk4565]

They need to offer good performance and knock out styling on everything from small and affordable cars to mid-priced high performance coupes/sedans aka G8. They also need a mix of FWD, AWD and RWD with a dual kidney grille signature Pontiac styling and orange/red lighting.

Right, but how do you pay for it? Because Buick needs new product, Cadillac needs new product, Saab is starved, Saturn even though it has new product isn't selling, Chevy needs the Cruze, Volt, a new Impala, etc. The pie is being sliced too many ways.

I'd like to see Pontiac or Buick make good cars again, but with 5-10% of GM's resources going to the brand it won't happen. This is why years ago I said Saab, Hummer and Buick should go, so they can salvage what's left over.

[A Horse With No Name]

I'm not saying that Pontiac couldn't be a "rebel" brand, I'm just saying they haven't been. The rebel brand I'd like them to emulate in marketing style is Mini.

Exactly. GM needs to find the people behind the MINI ad campaign and hire them...

Chris

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What's more rebel than a 30-something married guy buying a MinicooperS to try and be a kid again? Have you seen the commercial with the two suburban house husband neighbors trying to one up each other with their Mini mods?

BMW is about as rebel as a beige Camry. Especially in gayland. Hell, I was a rebel gay for buying a CTS and not a Jetta/Passat/3-series.

CTS has huge rebel pretensions anyway.

The way the car was/is marketed and the fact that the german and japanese are the norm.

[gm4life]

I agree with the CTS that G8 is also a rebel to a certain extent.

[A Horse With No Name]

...in this world of bland, FWD jellybeans, it is a rebel. It's also more of a traditional "hot rod" in the way it feels as a car, and in a lot of ways it reminds me of the great 4 door Bonnevilles, Electras, and Impalas of the late 60's.

Chris

[§carlet §wordfish]

Chevy SS: sporty practical cars. Pontiac: practical sports cars.

Pontiac's base models should be equivalent in performance to Chevy's SS models. Big V8's or turbo 4's. They should also have wild, unrestrained styling, more like the Solstice than the G8 in my opinion. The G8 is a good looking car but nothing about it looks definitively sporty, i.e., I think it would look at home as a Chevy. Pontiacs should all look like Ferraris. No one should ever think it was a common passenger car.