Time To Buy American

[A Horse With No Name]

We actually had a guy show up to one of our autocrosses in a Semi truck. He was quite angry when we turned him away.

Chris

[Robert Hall]

We actually had a guy show up to one of our autocrosses in a Semi truck. He was quite angry when we turned him away.

Chris

By the way, didn't autocross events used to be called 'gymkhatas' or 'gymkhanas'? I vaguely remember that from my old R&Ts (I've subscribed to Road & Track since I was 7!).

[Camino LS6]

I was plowing snow in my Silverado when my helper innocently asked me the following question.

"Can you drift in 4 wheel drive?"

I proceeded to demonstrate. :AH-HA_wink:

[axoid]

I have a Saturn VUE Readline and at 181" it just fits in my garage. The 192" Camaro takes the long side of the garage. So I'm needing something that is 183" or shorter. That kills the CTS and the Camaro. And even if I went with the Camaro, it still a 3800+ lbs beast that I doubt will be able to match the 135 in performance and will be for the next year selling for more than 36 grand price of the BMW. I did look at the CTS. I love the exterior, but the interior is too pimp-my-ride for my taste.

I hadn't thought of the awd 9-3. It is still heavy at 3800 lbs. and significantly more money than the 135.

The 92 Camaro is staying on autocross duty.

[Camino LS6]

I have a Saturn VUE Readline and at 181" it just fits in my garage. The 192" Camaro takes the long side of the garage. So I'm needing something that is 183" or shorter. That kills the CTS and the Camaro. And even if I went with the Camaro, it still a 3800+ lbs beast that I doubt will be able to match the 135 in performance and will be for the next year selling for more than 36 grand price of the BMW. I did look at the CTS. I love the exterior, but the interior is too pimp-my-ride for my taste.

I hadn't thought of the awd 9-3. It is still heavy at 3800 lbs. and significantly more money than the 135.

The 92 Camaro is staying on autocross duty.

Provided GM survives, I think that an Alpha Camaro will be tailor-made for your purposes.

[Intrepidation]

I love the exterior, but the interior is too pimp-my-ride for my taste.

Just curious, how?

[Sixty8panther]

So you can spend more to drive a BMW that loses to Chevys?

if GM had not said F*** You to all us RWD-only car

nuts they would be doing a WHOLE lot better.

[Sixty8panther]

Oh.... and before I forget. GREAT ARTICLE!

66S: why'd you turn him away?

[cletus8269]

By the way, didn't autocross events used to be called 'gymkhatas' or 'gymkhanas'? I vaguely remember that from my old R&Ts (I've subscribed to Road & Track since I was 7!).

yeah i posted a vid of some sweet driving skills in the lounge from streetfire

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Ken-Blo...12.htm?Ref=Blog

theres the vid.

[Drew Dowdell]

if GM had not said F*** You to all us RWD-only car

nuts they would be doing a WHOLE lot better.

I know I'm not going to get a rational answer to this.... but GM produces a FWD car that out handles and out runs previous generation M3s.... If the car is doing that to RWD cars of twice the price, what advantage does RWD bring to the table?

[axoid]

Provided GM survives, I think that an Alpha Camaro will be tailor-made for your purposes.

That has been what I've been hoping for.

Just curious, how?

The wood trim, the busy aluminum center stack with that "I want to be a Bentley" clock. It is like it's trying too hard. I have simple taste, anything more is a distraction. It is the same reasoning that will keep me from having any BMW with iDrive.

Then again I would probably be happy with a car that had a striped interior and a roll cage. Wait a minute, I have one of those.

If the car is doing that to RWD cars of twice the price, what advantage does RWD bring to the table?

If you have to ask that, then I would bet you have never driven a RWD car in anger. I raced FWDs, RWDs and AWDs and I swore to myself that I would never own another FWD car. With a FWD all you can really do is throw it into a corner and hope it sticks and if your really good maybe play with the parking brake a little. With RWD and the better AWD setups you can literally dance the car on the edge of grip using the throttle and a light touch of the steering. It is had for me to explain, you have to experience it to know what I'm talking about.

Edited November 19, 2008 by axoid

[CARBIZ]

Having 'grown up' with RWD and now 'married' to FWD, I understand the advantages/disadvantages of both. However, what I don't get (and I know I am pissing into the wind with many folks on C&G) is why are so many 'enthusiasts' prepared to throw Detroit into the dumpster just because somebody, somewhere builds a RWD car that can 'drift?'

BIG DEAL. There's a whole lot of growin' up to do.

The problem is, these are the same guys who write in the car mags and influence the wannabees out there. So, you end up with a 40 year old housewife buying a BMW 3 series for the 'image,' even though the half-wit wouldn't know RWD from FWD from the end of her curling iron. (My apologies to the 4 housewives in North America who show up at NASCAR events.)

Whether we like it or not, manual shift/RWD/300+ horsepower vehicles are going to die very soon, thanks to a perfect storm combination of legislation, the insurance lobby, dwindling resources and pure common sense.

Before some of you reach for your shot gun, think about it: oil will be expensive again; you are financing terrorists that hate you; automobiles were intended as transportation, not toys; speed does kill; insurance is expensive and as society we are going to have to make tough choices in the ensuing years.

I doubt many of you would bother to haunt any of the 'green' sites, but obviously they are diametrically opposed to most of what is said on C&G. Many of those types won't be happy until all forms of personal transport (other than bicycles perhaps) are outlawed.

Furthermore, if you look at where auto technology is going (more computer control, drive by wire, hybrids, telemetrics, etc.) we are truly seeing the birth of an era where most if not all driver input is being taken out of the equation. There are many reasons for this, but the overwhelming one is that of efficiency. Automatic transmissions are one good example. As they have improved, they are more efficient in most cases than a manual shift. That is why you don't (or won't) see any hybrids with a manual shift.

For the vast majority of people out there, automobiles are little more than transportation. These people have (in their minds) busy lives and will not take the time to learn the proper use, care, etc. of their vehicles. It is for them that GM and Ford have catered over the past decade or more. Once the car mags are driven into extinction (probably when oil hits $200 a barrel and nobody can afford to drive 5 series Beemers that require premium fuel), there will be a return to sanity within the automotive engineering/design community.

The question is, will GM and Ford survive long enough for the enthusiasts to realize and accept that?

[Drew Dowdell]

If you have to ask that, then I would bet you have never driven a RWD car in anger. I raced FWDs, RWDs and AWDs and I swore to myself that I would never own another FWD car. With a FWD all you can really do is throw it into a corner and hope it sticks and if your really good maybe play with the parking brake a little. With RWD and the better AWD setups you can literally dance the car on the edge of grip using the throttle and a light touch of the steering. It is had for me to explain, you have to experience it to know what I'm talking about.

I went from a DOHC 3.4 litre Cutlass Supreme to a CTS 3.6. I've taken both of them to the edge and slightly beyond. Now I don't rallycross like you, but I do understand the difference between a well balanced RWD car and your typical, front heavy, torque steering, FWD, car.

What I'm trying to say is that the Cobalt SS has shown it's chops on the Nurburgring and beat Audi S5s and previous generation M3s and tied the Nissan GT-R R32. Now I know that the 'Ring isn't the only measure of a car, but that the Cobalt SS can even run with those big guns should really tell you something about it's abilities.

Can't you give the hot little Chevy a chance?

[A Horse With No Name]

FWD cars really do kinda suck when they are driven hard. Come out and Autocross sometime...I've only been doing it for less than a year, but I've worked as a corner worker in the SCCA and been on an SCCA pit crew, as well as worked crew for a circle track team.

Driven in anger, there is a real difference between FWD and RWD. I really would be happy if I never owned another FWD car.

But I can really see CARBIZ's point about FWD and "growin up," and I'm enough of an automotive whore to really be lusting after the Cobalt SS.

But when the ink dries on a purchase contract, I really want RWD.

Chris

[Robert Hall]

But when the ink dries on a purchase contract, I really want RWD.

Chris

My experience w/ FWD has been limited to rental cars and the Escort diesel I had in high school (and it was my folks' tow car for their RV, not something I bought). FWD is fine for vanilla, mainstream cars for the mainstream driver that want a transportation appliance.

If I'm buying something for myself--be it a daily driver or a weekend fun car, I want RWD...

[A Horse With No Name]

Agreed, Mr moltar...

[Camino LS6]

Well I finally conquered the header leaks in the wagon tonight, and I took it out for a "spirited" drive.

I will hold out for RWD forever.

[A Horse With No Name]

RWD is Nirvana. Wagon will be sweet car done. It would make a great tow vehicle for a vintage british sports car like an MG TC...

Chris

[shesellschevys]

Received this at work today from a reputable source... gives us all something to ponder!!

__

Come on North America … give your head a shake! Nothing more needs to be said, when the metal hits the meat, are you making the right decisions ... Ford, Chrysler and GM's contributions after 9/11:

'CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington. The findings are as follows.....

1. Ford- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered an ER response team, services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. GM- $10 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler- $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles- $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen-Employees and management created a Sept 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo-Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda- Nothing but did boast of having the second best sales month ever in August 2001.

12. Isuzu-Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi-Nothing.

14. Nissan-Nothing.

15. Porsche-Nothing. Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru-Nothing.

17. Suzuki-Nothing.

18. Toyota-Nothing but did communicate high sales in July and August 2001.

Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep this information in mind. You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by an American-owned and / or American based company. Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing at all to the citizens of the United States ... It's OK for these companies to take money out of this country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things like this. Say thank you in a way that gets their attention..

Wake Up North America … Pass it on, I just did.

[A Horse With No Name]

A very good point, she sells chevy's!

Chris